[♪♪] Good evening, Welcome to "Kentucky Tonight."

I'm Renee Shaw.

Thanks for joining us.

Our topic tonight: horse racing safety.

Racing’s Triple Crown is now behind us.

But this year, those races were partially overshadowed by numerous deaths at the major race tracks.

There were 12 deaths at Churchill Downs in the weeks leading up to the Kentucky Derby, and deaths at Pimlico and Belmont Park.

Churchill has now moved the remainder of its spring meet to Ellis Park in Henderson while it tries to figure out what’s causing so many deaths.

This comes during a relaunch of an anti-doping and medication control policy — from the Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority, or HISA, went into effect on May 22nd.

Will national oversight help improve the safety of horse racing?

We have a distinguished panel from the horse racing world to discuss all this.

But before we get to them, part of my conversation earlier today with Natalie Voss, editor-in-chief of the Paulick Report, about the recent deaths.

>> NATALIE VOSS THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

LET'S TALK ABOUT HISA BECAUSE IT SEEMED TO ALL OF THIS CONNECTED WITH CHURCHILL DOWNS HAS MAYBE PERHAPS RAISED THE CONVERSATION ABOUT HISA.

IS IT A GOOD AGENCY?

IS IT A NECESSARY AGENCY?

DO YOU HAVE THE LAW AND THEN YOU HAVE THE AGENCY.

FIRST OF ALL IF YOU CAN GIVE US A PRIMER ABOUT THE LAW AND THEN THE AGENCY, THE REGULATORY AGENCY THAT IS CHARGED TO OVERSEE THIS?

>> SO THE LAW THAT CREATED THE AGENCY WAS PASSED BY CONGRESS IN 2020.

IT WAS PASSED WITH CREATING AN AGENCY THAT WOULD SERVE AS A NATIONAL OVERSIGHT FOR RACETRACK SAFETY AND ANTI-DOPING AND MEDICATION CONTROL THOSE ARE CONSIDERED TWO SEPARATE WELL, SORT OF SEPARATE BUT RELATED WINGS OF THE SAME ORGANIZATION.

THE RACETRACK SAFETY PORTION IN TERMS OF RULES AND LOGISTICS WENT INTO EFFECT LAST JULY.

THE MEDICATION CONTROL PORTION WHICH WILL NATIONALIZE MEDICATION STANDARDS JUST I THINK LAUNCHED JUST AHEAD OF BELMONT.

THE BELMONT WAS DEFINITELY THE FIRST OF THE TRIPLE CROWN RACES AND WE STILL DON'T HAVE TEST RESULTS BACK FROM THE FIRST ROUND OF MEDICATION TESTING THAT HAS HAPPENED UNDER HISA THAT PART OF IT GOT IMPLEMENTED MUCH LATER.

BUT THAT IS WHERE WE'RE AT AT THE MOMENT WITH THAT ORGANIZATION.

>> Renee: IN YOUR CREW YOU'VE LONG REPORTED AND CELEBRATED EQUINE JOURNALIST DOES THETIC PROTECTTY, THE LONGEVITY OF THE HORSERACING INDUSTRY DEPEND ON HAVING A NATIONALIZED, FEDERALIZED UNIFORM STANDARD OF REGULATION, IS HISA THE AGENCY THE ANSWER?

>> I THINK IT'S NOT THE ONLY ANSWER BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE CHALLENGES THAT THE SPORT FACES IN TERMS OF PUBLIC PERCEPTION ARE SO MULTIFACTORIAL.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED REPORTING ON THIS BUSINESS MORE THAN A DECADE AGO, WHAT PEOPLE WERE TELLING ME INSIDE OF RACING WAS THERE'S NO CONSISTENCY NATIONALLY.

WE NEED TO FIX THIS THERE NEEDS TO BE NATIONAL OVERSIGHT AND THINGS NEED TO BE ADJUDICATED MUCH MORE QUICKLY AND THINGS NEED TO BE STREAMLINED.

I STILL HEAR THAT AS SOMETHING THAT RACING INSIDERS ARE HOPEFUL WITH HISA BUT NOW THE PUBLIC VIEWPOINT PEOPLE NOT HORSERACING PEOPLE IS NOT JUST WHY ARE RULES DIFFERENT FROM STATE TO STATE MANY MAY NOT RECOGNIZE THAT IS TRUE.

WHAT THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT IS THE SAFETY OF THE ANIMALS AND THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL.

AND I THINK THAT HISA CAN HELP ADDRESS THAT.

I THINK IF IT IS SORT OF EXECUTING SUCCESSFULLY IT CAN MAKE MEANINGFUL IMPROVEMENTS WITH RACETRACK SAFETY BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THE PUBLIC IS GOING TO ACCEPT THAT AS THE ANSWER TO THE ENTIRE PROBLEM.

THEY WANT FOR HORSES NOT TO DIE IN COMPETITION AND THEY WANT THAT IMMEDIATELY.

AND THE NATURE OF RESEARCH BASED DATA DRIVEN SORTS OF REGULATIONS THE WAY HISA IS INTERESTED IN INTERACTING IS THAT THEY TAKE TIME.

IT DEAF THATLY HELPS BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S OUR ONLY SOLUTION AS A SPORT.

SO THE ENTIRE PUBLIC PERCEPTION PROBLEM.

>> Renee: ARE THERE PARTICULAR RULES THAT HORSEMEN AND HORSE INDUSTRY FOLKS ARE OPPOSED TO WHEN IT COMES TO HISA OR IS IT THE OVERALL CONCEPT OF HAVING THIS AGENCY?

OR IS IT BOTH?

>> I THINK IT DEPENDS WHO YOU ASK.

THE BASIS OF THE LAWSUITS THAT ARE WORKING THEIR WAY THROUGH FEDERAL COURTS FROM MY UNDERSTANDING IS MOSTLY BASED ON THE CONSTITUTIONALITY BUT I THINK THERE ARE DEFINITELY HORSEMEN'S GROUPS THAT HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT INDIVIDUAL RULES WITHIN THE TRACK SAFETY AND SOMEWHAT IN THE MEDICATION SPECTRUM, TOO.

PEOPLE HAD SORT OF LESS TIME TO THE MEDICATION ROLE THAN PRACTICE AND THERE'S HESITATION IN STATES THAT HAVE NOT HAD THE RESOURCES TO HAVE AS MANY VETERINARIANS, TO DO AS MUCH TESTING AS WHAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED THE GOLD STANDARD THERE'S CONCERN HOW IS THAT GOING TO PLAY OUT.

HOW TIGHT IS THIS CONTROL GOING TO BE, ARE THEY GOING TO EXPAND THEIR CONTROL OVER THESE VARIOUS SORT OF MANAGEMENT ASPECTS OF RACETRACKS.

I THINK THERE'S HESITATION FROM DIFFERENT PEOPLE FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

>> Renee: IN ADDITION TO HISA AND WE KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE ON THE PANEL MIGHT HAVE OTHER IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO IMPROVE HORSERACING SAFETY.

WHAT HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS BEEN ABOUT BEFORE THAT COULD INFORM WHERE TO GO NEXT?

>> SO PREVIOUSLY TO MY UNDERSTANDING AND THIS PREDATES MY EXISTENCE ON THE PLANET THERE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT VOLUNTARY PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS BETWEEN STATE RACING COMMISSIONS AMONGST RACETRACKS TO COME TOGETHER AND CREATE A SIMILAR NATIONAL EFFECT WHERE YOU HAVE EVERYBODY AGREEING TO ADHERE TO BEST PRACTICE SAFETY POLICY AND MEDICATION POLICY.

THOSE TEND IN MY EXPERIENCE TO SORT OF GET SOME BUY IN FROM EXACTLY WHO YOU WOULD EXPECT THE STATES THAT ARE RUNNING MORASSING AND MORE HIGHER END RACING LIKE KENTUCKY, CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK, TRACKS AND COMMISSIONS TEND TO BE MORE WILLING IN THOSE AREAS TO ADVANCE.

AND WHERE YOU DON'T SEE PEOPLE JUMPING ONBOARD IS KIND OF THE SAME PLACES THE SAME SORT OF RACETRACKS EVERY TIME.

SO THIS LAW WENT FORWARD THE WAY IT DID, I THINK LARGELY BECAUSE THE EXISTING SYSTEM WASN'T WORKING.

THIS IDEA OF LET'S VOLUNTARILY BUY INTO SOMETHING AND LET'S ALL AGREE TO GET ALONG AND DO THINGS THE SAME WAY SOUNDS REALLY NICE, BUT I THINK THE REASON THAT RACING IS IN THE SITUATION AT THE MOMENT IS BECAUSE THEY TRIED THAT AND IT DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THE NATIONAL IMPACT THAT EVERYBODY WANTED IT TO.

SO I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT IS A PERFECT SOLUTION BUT IT'S DESIGNED TO BE A COMPLETE SOLUTION AS FAR AS GETTING EVERYONE ON THE SAME PAGE.

>> Renee: NATALIE VOSS THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME WE APPRECIATE YOU AND YOUR WORK AS WELL.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Renee: NOW, We are joined in our Lexington studio, by: Bill Lear, an attorney and Vice Chairman of The Jockey Club; State Senator Damon Thayer, a Republican from Georgetown, Senate Majority Floor Leader, and horse-racing industry consultant, and Chauncey Morris, Executive Director of the Kentucky Thoroughbred Association.

And joining us by SKYPE: Eric J. Hamelback, CEO of the National Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, the N-H-B-P-A.

We want to hear from you.

So send us your questions by Twitter at K-Y TONIGHT K-E-T.

Send an email to K-Y TONIGHT at K-E-T dot O-R-G. Or use the web form at K-E-T dot O-R-G slash K-Y TONIGHT.

Or you can call 1-800-494-7605.

Welcome to all of our guests.

Mr. ERIC HAMELBACK WE SPRESH YOU JOINING US BY SKYPE.

THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN.

YOU HEARD WHAT NATALIE HAD TO SAY TO GIVE US A PRIMER WHAT IS HAPPENING.

NOT EVERYONE WHO IS WATCHING THE SHOW LEADER THAYER IS AS MUCH OF A HORSE ENTHUSIAST AS YOU ARE.

FROM WHAT YOU HEARD FROM MS. VOSS AND CONSIDERING WE'VE HAD A DOZEN DEATHS AT CHURCHILL DOWNS AND OTHER PLACES, DOES IT NOT MAKE SENSE FOR A STANDARDIZED UNIFORM REGULATORY AGENT SIT TO -- SECRETARYSY TO -- AGENCY TO PULL THE REINS IN TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE IS SAFE?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

HAPPY TO DISCUSS MY FAVORITE TOPIC, HORSERACING.

THE REASON I MOVED TO KENTUCKY OVER 30 YEARS AGO TO WORK AT TURF WAY PARK AND IT LATER AND IN THE BREEDER'S CUP.

I SUPPORT A STANDARDIZATION OF MEDICATION RULES ACROSS RACING JURISDICTIONS IN AMERICA.

12 YEARS AGO, I GOT A BILL PASSED IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY THAT WOULD ALLOW KENTUCKY TO JOIN AN INTERSTATE COMPACT WHERE STATES WOULD JOIN TOGETHER TO FORM AN ALLIANCE TO IMPLEMENT THOSE UNIFORM RULES.

IT WAS SIGNED INTO LAW BY STEVE BESHEAR, A CURRENT MEMBER OF THE HISA GOVERNING BOARD.

I THINK THERE ARE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS RELATED TO HISA.

I LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE 10TH AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION.

ON THE TOP OF MY TWITTER PAGE IF ANYBODY HAS ANY QUESTIONS.

AND IT SAYS THAT IF IT AS' NOT ENUMERATED IN THE CONSTITUTION UNDER THE POWERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE STATE.

AND FOR ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE HORSERACING HAS BEEN REGULATED BY THE STATES.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENED IS A PATCHWORK OF RULES AND REGULATIONS AND TODAY'S TRAINERS MIGHT BE RACING IN MULTIPLE STATES ON THE SAME DAY.

AND I THINK GETTING THOSE MEDICATION RULES ALIGNED IS THE RIGHT STEP.

I ALSO THINK IT'S THE RIGHT STEP TO PROVIDE A SAFER RACING ENVIRONMENT FOR HORSES AND JOCKEYS AND BETTER INTEGRITY FOR THE BETTERS WHO FUND THE RACING BUSINESS MODEL BY BETTING ON RACES.

PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THAT RACES ARE OCCURRING ON THE UP AND UP.

THERE ARE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS, I THINK ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF HISA.

BUT ULTIMATELY, THE COURT WILL DECIDE.

IT'S CURRENTLY WORKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE FEDERAL COURT OF APPEALS.

SOME PEOPLE THINK THAT THE COURT OF APPEALS COULD HAVE THE FINAL SAY AND RULE IT CONSTITUTIONAL.

OTHERS SAY IT COULD GO TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND IT'S ULTIMATE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION WOULD BE SETTLED THERE.

EITHER WAY, I DO THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE CONSISTENT RULES AND WE ARE HEADING IN THAT DIRECTION.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, I'VE SPENT THE LAST WEEK HAVING A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS WITH INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS.

AT THIS TIME, I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE RACING SURFACES AT CHURCHILL DOWNS.

I DON'T THINK THEY NEEDED TO MOVE THEIR MEET TO ELLIS PARK.

>> Renee: SHOULD THEY HAVE SUSPENDED.

DO YOU BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE SUSPENDED THE RACING THERE?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY WERE OBLIGATED TO DO SO BUT I DO THINK -- >> Renee: HISA DID RECOMMEND IT.

>> HISA DID RECOMMEND IT AND WE'RE PROBABLY HEADED TOWARDS TRYING TO FORCE THEM INTO A SHUTDOWN WHICH I DON'T BELIEVE A FEDERAL AGENCY FOLLOWING OUGHT OF THE RULES AND PROTOCOLS SHOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO THAT CAN BE A SEPARATE ISSUE IF YOU WANT TO ADDRESS IT.

I THINK CHURCHILL DOWNS TOOK THE HIGH ROAD AND MOVED THE MEET TWO HOURS DOWN THE ROAD TO HENDERSON IN WESTERN KENTUCKY TO ELLIS PARK AND THEY ARE RUNNING THAT THE MEET FOR THE REST OF THIS MONTH AND IT WILL SEGUE INTO THE SUMMER MEET IN JULY AT ELLIS PARK.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG I'VE TALKED TO TRAINERS AND JOCKEYS AND PARTICIPANTS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM AND THEY BELIEVE IT'S SAFE.

AND YOUR VIEWERS SHOULD KNOW HERE IN KENTUCKY WE HAVE THE BEST THE INDUSTRY LEADING PROTOCOLS AND RULES AND REGULATIONS.

MANY OF WHICH HAVE BEEN ADOPTED ON A FEDERAL BASIS BY HISA.

CHURCHILL DOWNS HAS ONE OF THE BEST SAFETY RECORDS OF ANY RACETRACK IN THE COUNTRY.

I THINK WHAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED AS A STATISTICAL ANOMALY A CLUSTER OF THESE HORSE INJURIES.

AND IT HAPPENS.

IT HAPPENS IN LOTS OF OTHER THINGS IN LIFE, CAR ACCIDENTS, TRAIN DERAILMENTS AIRPLANE ACCIDENTS.

WE'VE SEEN A STATISTICAL ANOMALY.

I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT WE CONTINUE TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO PROTECT THE SAFETY OF HORSES AND JOCKEYS.

I THINK CHURCHILL DOWNS SHOULD BE COMPLIMENTED FOR TAKING THE HIGH ROAD TO TAKE A STEP BACK, THEY CONTINUE TO DO TESTING OF THE SURFACES DOWN THERE.

AND NOTHING IS COMING UP AS BEING WRONG WITH THE SURFACE.

>> Renee: Mr. MORRIS DID CHURCHILL DOWNS GET IT RIGHT OR WRONG?

>> I THOUGHT THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

I THINK THEY ARE EXERCISING AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION.

LET'S BE VERY FRANK...

THE ONLY TIME THAT HORSERACING PIERCES THE VEIL OF POPULAR CULTURE IS DURING THE TRIP ESPECIALLY CROWN STARTING WITH THE KENTUCKY DERBY.

THERE'S BEEN TIMES IN THE PAST IN NEW YORK AND CALIFORNIA WHERE THESE STATISTICAL ANOMALIES THAT SENATOR THAYER IS TALKING ABOUT THAT THEY'VE HAPPENED BUT THEY GET TO A LEVEL OF 21 CATASTROPHIC BREAKDOWNS.

30 CATASTROPHIC BREAKDOWNS.

I THINK WHAT SENATOR THAYER SAID IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

KENTUCKY SHOULD REALLY BE THE BENCHMARK AT WHAT YOU COMPARE EVERYTHING ELSE IN HORSERACING TO.

WE HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE HERE THAT REALLY NO ONE HAS AND NOW WE HAVE BECAUSE OF ACTIONS OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE MOST PROFITABLE BUSINESS PLAN HERE FOR HORSERACING IN NORTH AMERICA.

BUT BEYOND THAT, THOUGH, WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US THAT IS INVOLVED AND EMPLOYED IN RACING HAVE HAD OUR PHONES BURN UP AND PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT INVOLVED IN RACING ASK US WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?

AND SO I THINK THAT IT WAS RESPONSIBLE THERE'S VERY FEW TRACKS ANYWHERE THAT ARE ABLE TO MOVE THEIR OPERATIONS ON SOMETHING THAT GENERALLY TAKES THREE WEEKS TO GET ANOTHER TRACK PREPARED IN THE SPAN OF FIVE TO SIX DAYS, AND I THINK THAT IT WAS A RESPONSIBLE MOVE.

>> Renee: Mr. LEAR YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> SURE, I AGREE THEY DID THE RIGHT THING.

AND I THINK THE HISA THE ROLE THEY PLAYED WAS IMPORTANT.

THEY ASSEMBLED THE TOP EXPERTS TOGETHER.

THEY HAD McPETERSON THE GOLD STANDARD THEY HAD HIM LOOK AT THE TRACK.

BUT BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T AND I AGREE WITH SENATOR THAYER, I'VE SEEN NOTHING TO INDICATE THAT IT WAS THE FAULT OF THE RACETRACK.

BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW.

AND I LOOK AT THE HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE AND I ENJOYED SOME OF THE SENATOR'S COMMENTS ABOUT HISTORY.

KENTUCKY DID ADOPT KENTUCKY ADOPTED WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN INTERSTATE COMPACT 12 YEARS AGO.

I DIDN'T REALIZE YOU SPONSORED IT.

CONGRATULATIONS.

NO OTHER STATE ADOPTED IT.

NOBODY WOULD FOLLOW.

ANOTHER INTERSTATE COMPACT WAS TRIED UP IN MARYLAND.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH THE COMPACTS TO GET PEOPLE ONBOARD YOU HAVE TO AGREE TO LET THEM BACK OUT OF ANY RULE THEY DON'T LIKE OR AGREE TO LET THEM BACK OUT ALTOGETHER.

THAT IS WHY THE COMPACT MODEL DID NOT WORK.

LOOKING AT THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT AS BAD AS WHAT HAPPENED AT CHURCHILL WAS, IF THERE HAD BEEN A HISA THAT COULD HAVE OFFERED ITS EXPERTISE -- AND BY THE WAY IT HAS A WEALTH OF EXPERTISE WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT A LITTLE BIT LATER -- IF SOMEBODY HAD STEPPED IN AFTER THE FIRST 12 AT SANTA ANITA OR BEFORE THAT, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GREAT THING.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TERRIBLE JUST LIKE THE 12 AT CHURCHILL WAS TERRIBLE.

BUT TO HAVE AN ENTITY THAT HAS THE ABILITY TO BRING IN NOT JUST THE STATE EXPERTS BUT THAT EXPERTS IN BEST PRACTICES AND TO OFFER THE RECOMMENDATION THAT THEY DID.

I CONGRATULATE CHURCHILL ON AS WAS SAID TAKING THE HIGH ROAD AND MAKING THE DECISION TO SUSPEND RACING.

I WOULD LIKE TO SAY ONE THING... A LAWYER SUCH AS ME CAN'T BACK AWAY FROM THE 10TH AMENDMENT ARGUMENT BY SENATOR THAYER.

THE SIXTH CIRCUIT LOOKED AT THE ARGUMENT THAT HISA VIOLATED THE 10TH AMENDMENT AND THEY DISMISSED IT OUT OF HAND WHEN THEY UPHELD HISA.

BEFORE YOU GET TO THE 10TH AMENDMENT, THERE IS SECTION 8 OF ARTICLE ONE THAT SAYS CONGRESS HAS A RIGHT TO REGULATE COMMERCE AMONG THE STATES.

AND THERE IS NO QUESTION BUT THE THOROUGHBRED RACING IS COMMERCE AMONG THE STATES.

IN FACT, THE CONGRESS RECOGNIZED THAT IN 1978 WHEN THEY ADOPTED THE INTERSTATE HORSE RAGGING ACT OF 1978 WHICH PROVIDES A LOT OF BACKGROUND FOR MUCH IN THOROUGHBRED RACING AND STANDARD BRED RACING IN THE COUNTRY.

IT'S INTERSTATE COMMERCE THEY CAN PREEMPT THE STATES THAT IS WHAT THEY'VE DONE.

>> Renee: BUT THERE ARE STILL LAWSUITS GOING ON Mr. AND ERIC HAMELBACK IN INDIANA YOUR ASSOCIATION IS A PLAINTIFF, CORRECT?

WHAT ARE YOUR PROBLEMS WITH HISA?

WHAT ARE THEY DOING WRONG OR SHOULD NOT BE DOING AT ALL IN YOUR VIEW?

>> WELL, THANK YOU RENEE, I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE ON.

I WANT TO FIRST SAY AND BE CLEAR THAT THE NATIONAL HBPA PROMOTES THE HIGHEST STANDARDS OF CARE FOR OUR RACE HORSES AND WE DEMAND THE HIGHEST PROTOCOLS FOR SAFETY TO BE IMPLEMENTED BOTH FOR THE EQUINE ATHLETES AND OUR HUMAN ATHLETES THAT ARE ABOARD.

YES, IT IS TRUE THAT THE NATIONAL HBPA IS ONE OF THE SIX LAWSUITS THAT HAVE BEEN FILED CHALLENGING THE HISA CONSTITUTIONALITY.

BUT TO BE VERY CLEAR, IT IS VERY MUCH BECAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTIONALITY.

WHAT I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CONTINUE TO CONVEY IS THAT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THINGS ARE DONE PROPERLY AND LEGALLY.

PERIOD.

WE HAVE FOR MANY YEARS ADVOCATED UNIFORMITY, NOT ONLY IN SAFETY BUT CERTAINLY WITH LABORATORY UNIFORMITY AND WE HAVE HAD BEEN BEHIND MANY EFFORTS TO TRY TO GET THAT DONE.

AND NATALIE'S PIECE SHE WAS SPOT ON.

IT WAS OFTENTIMES LEFT UP TO THE STATES TO TRY TO PUT THEM TOGETHER.

BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT WE DON'T GET THE CREDIT THAT THE HORSERACING INDUSTRY DESERVES FOR THE UNIFORMITY THAT WE HAD.

AND I POINT TO THE MID-ATLANTIC STATE.

THE MID-ATLANTIC STATES IS COMPRISED OF FIVE AFFILIATES AND SIX HBPA AFFILIATES AND THEY OPERATED UNDER THE NATIONAL UNIFORM MEDICATION PROGRAM.

THE PROBLEM WE NOW HAVE WITH HISA IS THAT THEY HAVE UNFORTUNATELY, NOT ADOPTED THE RULES THAT WERE IN PLACE.

THEY HAVE DECIDED TO CHANGE OR SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID BLOWN UP THE RULES SUCH AS HAVING CHANGES THAT ARE OVERWHELMING TO THE POINT WHERE IT'S CAUSED A LOT OF CHAOS.

BUT TO BE CLEAR, WE AS AN ORGANIZATION, CONTINUE TO WORK AS BEST WE CAN TO HELP WITH FUTURE REGULATIONS DEPENDING HOW HISA IS DECIDED IN THE COURT SYSTEM IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND VERY IMPORTANT FOR YOUR AUDIENCE TO UNDERSTAND THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS HERE.

WE HAVE THE LAW, WE HAVE THE ACT ITSELF, THAT IS WHAT IS BEING CHALLENGED.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE REGULATIONS, WE AS AN ORGANIZATION AS WITH MANY OTHERS INCLUDING THE OTHER HORSEMEN'S GROUPS IN THE UNITED STATES, HAVE ALL TRIED TO OFFER COMMENTS, OFFER CHANGES, AND HAVE SOME INPUT.

UNFORTUNATELY VERY FEW OF THOSE HAVE BEEN TAKEN AND IN OUR OPINION NOT HAVING INPUT FROM THE FOLKS WHO ARE WITH BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

>> Renee: BUT THE ORGANIZATION HISA DOES HAVE REPRESENTATION FROM HORSEMEN, CORRECT?

>> THEY DID FORM A HORSEMEN'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE LAST YEAR AFTER APRETTY BAD ROLL OUT TO BE FAIR.

I THINK THERE'S UNANIMOUS OPINION IN THE HORSE BUSINESS THAT THE ROLLOUT OF HISA LAST YEAR WAS BOTCHED.

>> WELL, THE ROLLOUT WAS BOTCHED BY ALL THE LAWSUITS.

THEY WERE DEALING WITH LAWSUITS FROM BEFORE THE ROLLOUT, SENATOR.

>> TO BE FAIR THERE WERE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHICH SET OF RULES THEY WERE OPERATING UNDER WEEK TO WEEK.

AND I KNOW BECAUSE I AM INVOLVED IN A HORSE PARTNERSHIP AND THERE WERE RULES THAT ONE WEEK WOULD HAVE ALLOWED OUR HORSE TO RUN AND THEN THE NEXT WEEK WOULDN'T HAVE ALLOWED OUR HORSE TO RUN AND NOBODY KNEW ABOUT IT.

AND -- >> I DO NOT THINK THAT IS A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION TO SAY ANY OF THE LEGALITIES BOTCHED THE ROLLOUT.

Mr. LEAR, I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.

AT END OF THE DAY THE REGULATIONS WERE PUT IN PLACE AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE LAWSUITS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ROLLOUT.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, HISA DIDN'T EVEN GET THE PROGRAM EFFECTIVE DATE CORRECT.

EVERYTHING WAS SUPPOSED TO GO INTO PLACE JULY FIRST OF 2022.

HOWEVER, THE ABMC PROGRAM DID NOT GO INTO EFFECT UNTIL RECENTLY.

I DON'T THINK IT IS ANY FAIR CHARACTERIZATION TO SAY THAT THE LITIGATION BOTCHED ANY ROLL OUT.

NOT MY WORDS BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THERE WAS QUITE A BIT OF CHAOS, CALLS, FROM THE ROLLOUTS BECAUSE THE IMPLEMENTATION QUITE FRANKLY WASN'T READY.

AND FAIRNESS TO MS. LAZARUS SHE WAS NOT IN PLACE UNTIL RIGHT BEFORE THE SAFETY REGULATIONS WERE APPROVED BY THE FFC.

>> Renee: WHEN YOU SAID MS. LAZARUS, THE C.E.O.

OF HISA.

WE DO HAVE THIS QUESTION OFF THAT TOPIC, IT'S NO SECRET HE SAYS THAT THE HORSE AMBULANCE AT THE RACETRACK DOESN'T TAKE THE INJURED HORSE TO A HORSE HOSPITAL.

SINCE MANY FRACTURES LEAD TO EUTHANASIA BECAUSE OF THE COST OF REHABILITATION SHOULDN'T THE COST OF TREATMENT OF THOROUGHBRED INJURIES BE MANDATED?

>> THAT IS IN FACT NOT TRUE.

THE HORSE AMBULANCE ITS FIRST GOAL IS TO STABILIZE AN INJURED HORSE.

IF AN INJURY OCCURS DURING A RACE, THE ON CALL VETERINARIANS THEIR PRIMARY JOB IS TO STABILIZE THAT HORSE AND TRY TO GET THEM TO VETERINARY CARE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

NOW, SOMETIMES UNFORTUNATELY, THOSE INJURIES ARE WHAT WE CALL CATASTROPHIC AND IT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE HORSE TO EUTHANIZE THE HORSE SO IT A DOESN'T SUFFER AND B, THE VETERINARIAN MAKES A CALL BASED ON THE LIKELIHOOD OF THE INJURY BEING ABLE TO BE REPAIRED.

I WANT TO POINT OUT BACK TO MY PREVIOUS POINT ABOUT THIS CLUSTER OF INJURIES, IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS, THE SAFETY PROTOCOLS BEING IMPLEMENTED ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN MOST STATES, PLACES LIKE KENTUCKY, CALIFORNIA, LEADING THE WAY, THE HORSE INDUSTRY HAS CUT BACK SUBSTANTIALLY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE JOCKEY CLUB INJURY DATABASE THEY MEASURE IT BASED ON THE NUMBER OF FATAL INJURIES PER 1,000 STARTS AND FOR YEARS THAT AVERAGE WAS TWO EQUINE FATALITIES PER 1,000 STARTS THE.

THAT NUMBER IS IS DOWN TO 1.25%% ALMOST CUT IN HALF THE STEPS WE ARE TAKING BEFORE HISA WAS FORCED ON A STATE BY STATE BASIS ARE LEADING TO BETTER SAFETY PROTOCOLS FOR HORSES.

AND THERE'S TECHNOLOGY OUT THERE LIKE STRIDE SAFE I WENT TO ELLIS PARK YESTERDAY.

DROVE THREE HOURS TO GET THERE TO SHOW MY SUPPORT FOR THE MOVEMENT OF THE MEET THERE AND I TALKED TO MY FRIEND AND HE IS WORKING WITH A COMPANY CALLED STRIDE SAFE.

EVERYONE OF HIS HORSES THAT TRAINS AT CHURCHILL DOWNS IN THE MORNING HAS TECHNOLOGY BUILT INTO THEIR SADDLE TOWEL THAT IS ABLE TO DETECT THE POSSIBILITIES FOR INJURIES SO TRAINERS HAVE THESE DIAGNOSTIC TOOLS TO KNOW IF THE HORSES HAVE A PROBLEM AND NEED TO TAKE A BREAK.

I APPLAUD THEM TO GATHER ENOUGH DATA TO SEE IF THIS IS SOMETHING WE CAN IMPLEMENT.

THERE ARE PROTOCOLS DEVELOPED EVERYDAY AND TECHNOLOGY DEVELOPED EVERYDAY AND RULES VICE-PRESIDENTED EVERYDAY WITH THE SAFETY OF THE HORSES AND THE JOCKEYS IN MIND.

>> Renee: HOLD ON JUST A MINUTE.

>> THESE HE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND THE BEAUTY OF THIS OCCURRING IN THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY IS THIS GRANT, THAT FACILITATED THE STRIDE SAFE WEARABLE MONITORS CAME BY THE EQUINE DRUG RESEARCH COUNCIL.

IT IS NOT ONLY Mr. ROMAN'S IT'S MULTIPLE TRAINERS THAT ARE DOING THIS AND DOING IT AS PART OF A STUDY.

BECAUSE TO THE QUESTION, IT'S NOT FACTUALLY THE CASE NUMBER ONE.

AND NUMBER TWO WE WANT TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WE POSSIBLY CAN IN ORDER TO INSURE THE SAFETY OF OUR EQUINE AND HUMAN ATHLETES.

>> Renee: SORRY, SIR.

THANK YOU FOR WAITING.

>> THAT'S FINE.

I WANTED TO COMPOUND WHAT SENATOR THAYER AND CHAUNCEY WERE SAYING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE REGULATIONS, HORSEMEN HAVE CONTINUED TO COMPLY YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR.

AND ALONG THE SAME LINES AS WHAT SENATOR THAYER WAS SAYING, SINCE 2009 AND THAT WAS WHEN THE EQUAN INJURY -- EQUINE INJURY DATABASE WAS STARTED WE'VE SEEN A 30% REDUCTION.

IT'S BEEN OVER MULTIPLE YEARS THAT THE FATALITY RATES HAVE COME DOWN.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT ONCE THE INVESTIGATIONS ARE COMPLETE, HOPEFULLY THAT GOING TO BE ONE DISCERNIBLE FACTOR THAT LINKS ALL OF THE BREAKDOWNS ON THE TRACK WHICH IS NINE.

I THINK THERE ARE THREE THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF THE COMPETITION ON THE TRACK.

BUT I THINK IT'S ALSO VERY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH THE HORSEMEN HAVE CONTINUED TO COMPLY OVER THESE MANY YEARS AND WE HAVE REDUCED BECAUSE OF OUR SAFETY EFFORTS AND INITIATIVES REDUCED THE FATALITY RATE 37.5% SINCE 2009.

>> LET ME BRING THIS BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED.

AND CHAUNCEY MADE A GOOD POINT.

WE HAVE NOW FOUND OUR WAY INTO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

WHY?

BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SEEN A LARGE NUMBER OF EQUINE FATALITIES.

MAYBE WE GOT COMPLACENT AFTER THE AFTERMATH OF SANTA ANITA.

I DON'T KNOW THAT WE DID THINKING WE WOULDN'T HAVE ANOTHER CLUSTER FROM WHATEVER COST.

BUT THE PUBLIC WANTS TO KNOW THAT WE ARE DOING THE ABSOLUTE BEST WE CAN TO DEAL WITH THE SAFETY OF THESE ATHLETES.

AND TO COME BACK TO WHAT I ELUDED TO EARLIER, I WISH EVERYBODY WOULD LOOK AT THE BIOS THE RESUMES OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOW WITH HISA.

NOT JUST TAKING -- KENTUCKY HAS BEEN A LEADER.

I DON'T DISPUTE THAT I'M PROUD OF MANY THINGS WE'VE DONE.

AND THEY HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF THE BEST PRACTICES.

BUT NOT EVERYBODY.

I'M SORRY, ERIC, NOT EVERY HORSEMEN IN THE COUNTRY HAVE FOLLOWED THE RULES.

WE SAW FEDERAL INDICTMENTS ON THE MEDICATION SIDE OF PEOPLE OPERATING PROMINENT PEOPLE, 27 INDICTMENTS I THINK, RIGHT UNDER THE NOSES OF REGULATORS THAT WEREN'T JUST -- >> THAT WAS NOT 27.

PLEASE MAKE THAT CLEAR.

>> IT WAS 27 INDICTMENTS.

THEY WERE NOT ALL THE THOROUGHBRED INDUSTRY BUT THEY WERE INVOLVED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER IN RACING.

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY YEARS OF JAIL TIME AND FINES THAT ADDED UP TO.

BUT THE POINT IS THAT WAS GOING ON RIGHT UNDER THE NOSES OF REGULATORS.

AND NOW WE'VE MADE IT BACK INTO THE NATIONAL MEDIA, AGAIN, AND HISA HAS PULLED MANY OF THE BEST FROM KENTUCKY.

SOMEBODY MENTIONED THE EDRC ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF ONE OF THE STANDING COMMITTEES IS Dr. JERRY YOUNG FROM KENTUCKY NOW IS A FLORIDA RESIDENT BUT HE WAS FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE ERDC HE HELPED.

>> Renee: EQUINE DRUG RESEARCH COUNCIL.

>> .

>> YOU'VE GOT MARK, HE IS A GOOD FRIEND OF YOURS HE IS SOMEBODY THAT I RESPECT A LOT.

HE IS WORKING WITH HISA.

YOU'VE GOT THE RETIRED PRESIDENT OF THE KEEN LAND BILL THOMPSON ON THE BOARD.

AND FORMER GOVERNOR BESHEAR ON THE BOARD.

THERE IS A LOT OF EXPERTISE FROM KENTUCKY BUT ALSO FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY.

SO IF I'M OUT THERE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND I'M SAYING IS THIS INDUSTRY I KNOW ERIC, THAT WE'VE MADE PROGRESS.

THE JOCKEY CLUB THAT SETUP THE EQUINE INJURY DATABASE.

IT WAS VOLUNTARY.

ALTHOUGH WE'VE GOT ABOUT 99% COMPLIANCE BUT IT WAS VOLUNTARY.

AND IT IS NOT TRANSPARENT BECAUSE ON A TRACK BY TRACK BASIS WE DON'T RELEASE THE NUMBERS.

BUT WE'VE PULLED TOGETHER THIS EXPERTISE FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY TO BRING IT ALL TO BEAR ON SAFETY AND ON MEDICATION.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT THE PUBLIC WANTS.

>> Renee: WHY NOT THE TRANSPARENCY IN SEEING THE NUMBERS TRACK BY TRACK?

>> THAT IS WHAT IT TOOK TO GET THE INFORMATION TO BEGIN WITH.

AND THAT'S WHEN YOU DO IT PRIVATELY, THAT SOMETIMES THE BEST YOU CAN DO.

>> THIS IS THE MODEL IF YOU DON'T MIND FROM HUMAN MEDICINE AS WELL, THAT THEY FIND THAT YOU'RE DIAGNOSE TO HAVE MORE FULL SOME STATEMENTS ON THE VORACITY OF THE INJURIES AND WHAT MIGHT HAVE LED TO THEM SO THAT IT FULFILLS YOU GET A BETTER INVESTIGATION AT THE END OF THE DAY.

>> Renee: WHEN THERE'S PRIVACY.

>> BILL WAS TALKING ABOUT THE EQUINE DRUG RESEARCH COUNCIL.

I SERVED ON THE EQUINE DRUG RESEARCH COUNCIL IT'S MANDATED THERE BE ONE LEGISLATOR ON THAT BOARD AND I WAS APPOINTED BY GOVERNOR FLETCHER AND REAPPOINTED BY GOVERNOR BESHEAR AND MATT BEVIN I SERVED ON IT FOR 15 YEARS UNTIL ANDY BESHEAR KICKED ME OFF.

DURING THAT TIME I WORKED WITH MARK ONE OF MY CLOSEST FRIENDS AND Dr. MARY SKA LAY TO RECOMMEND TO THE RACING COMMISSION SOME OF THE BEST HORSERACING MEDICATION AND INTEGRITY RULES OF THE COUNTRY.

KENTUCKY USED TO BE THE WILD, WILD WEST AND WE'VE CLEANED IT UP AND MADE IT A MODEL.

YES, I APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT MARK AND MARY HAVE MOVED ON FROM KENTUCKY TO IMPLEMENT THESE RULES ON A NATIONAL BASIS.

AND THAT -- THEIR PRESENCE GIVES ME SOME LEVEL OF CONFIDENCE THAT HISA WILL DO THE RIGHT THING.

BUT ULTIMATELY ONE OF TWO THINGS IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH HISA.

EITHER IT'S GOING TO BE RULED UNCONSTITUTIONAL BY THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE CHANCES OF THAT HAPPENING ARE LESS THAN 50% BUT THE CHANCES ARE STILL THERE.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN WE NEED TO GO BACK AND REVISIT THE INTERSTATE COMPACT MODEL.

THERE WAS A BILL FILED IN CONGRESS TODAY BY CONGRESSMAN FROM TEXAS THAT WOULD REPLACE HISA WITH A NEW LAW THAT HAS SOME OF THE SIMILARITIES TO HISA BUT IT WOULD BE THROUGH AN INTERSTATE COMPACT MODEL CALLED THE RACE HORSE HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT OF 2023.

AND IT WAS FILED BY CONGRESSMAN LANCE GOOD FROM TEXAS.

SO THERE ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES OUT THERE.

THE OTHER OPTION IS THAT HISA IS FOUND CONSTITUTIONAL.

AND THEN WE'RE ALL GOING TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT.

AND I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SEE HISA GET BACK TO ITS ORIGINAL CHARTER WHICH WAS TO FOCUS ON UNIFORM MEDICATION REGULATIONS ACROSS MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS.

PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH THE ROLLOUT IS THAT THEY TRIED TO DO TOO MUCH TOO SOON AND THEY LOST THE CONFIDENCE OF THE RANK-AND-FILE HORSEMEN.

SO THERE IS NOT A LOT OF CONFIDENCE OUT THERE AT RACETRACKS ACROSS AMERICA THAT HISA IS THE WAY TO GO.

SO IF IT IS FOUND CONSTITUTIONAL, I WOULD ENCOURAGE A PAUSE AND A RESET TO FOCUS ON THESE MEDICATION RULES WHICH JUST WENT INTO EFFECT LAST MONTH.

AND A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT WERE SORT OF ROLLED OUT IN A INCONGRUENT FASHION NEED TO BE REVISITED FOCUS ON THE CORE CONTENT OF THE CONGRESSIONAL CHARTER THAT WAS PASSED AND SIGNED INTO LAW BY PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> Renee: AND WAS CHAMPIONED BY MITCH McCONNELL AND ANDY BAR, DID THEY GET IT WRONG?

THEY WERE SUPPORTIVE OF THE ACT?

>> AND THE ACT DOES -- >> Renee: I WANT TO HEAR WHAT LEADER THAYER HAS TO SAY?

DID THEY GET IT WRONG?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY GOT IT WRONG I'M CLOSE TO LEADER McCONNELL AND CONGRESSMAN BAR.

AND I HAVE EXPRESSED BY CONCERNS CONSISTENTLY TO THEM ABOUT HISA.

AND THEY LISTEN TO ME AS A CONSTITUENT OF THEIRS.

I FEEL LIKE I'M THE VOICE OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING HEARD BY HISA.

AND AGAIN, THE CONSTITUTIONALITY IS GOING TO BE DECIDED BY THE COURTS AND I WILL LIVE BY THAT DECISION.

I'M NOT SUING HISA.

I'M NOT VICE-CHAIRMAN OF THE JOCKEY CLUB THE NUMBER ONE PROPONENT IN AMERICA FOR HISA'S IMPLEMENTATION AND I'M NOT SAYING WE NEED TO PULL IT OUT BY THE ROOTS.

AND BY THE WAY I'VE OFFERED AN ALTERNATIVE TO HISA 12 YEARS AGO THAT IS ON THE BOOKS HERE IN KENTUCKY AN INTERSTATE COMPACT.

>> Renee: BUT Mr. LEAR SAID IT DIDN'T WORK?

>> IT DIDN'T WORK.

I WAS LAUGHED AT BY MANY FACTIONS OF THE HORSE INDUSTRY WHO SAID THIS WILL NEVER WORK.

IF HISA IS FOUND UNCONSTITUTIONAL I DO THINK THERE IS MORE OF A PRESSING NEED AND PEOPLE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO MY INTERSTATE COMPACT APPROACH DO RECOGNIZE THE NEED FOR CONSISTENT UNIFORM RULES ACROSS MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS.

THAT IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

AND THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT WITHDRAWAL TIMES FOR THERAPEUTIC MEDICATIONS.

THE RIGHT DOSING AMOUNTS FOR THERAPEUTIC MEDICATIONS ACROSS JURISDICTIONS.

I'M FOR THAT.

I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FOR THAT.

I'M ON THE RECORD AS BEING FOUND THAT.

I HELPED FOUND THOSE RULES IN KENTUCKY.

I'M JUST SAYING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE HISA IN IT CONTINUES FORWARD TO FOCUS ON THE MEDICATION SIDE OF THINGS.

>> Renee: Mr. LEAR, AND THEN Mr. HAMELBACK.

>> HISA WAS ADOPTED AFTER BEING IN CONGRESS IN VARIOUS FORMS FOR ABOUT FIVE DIFFERENT SESSIONS.

FIRST WAS FILED ONLY MEDICATION IN 2015.

BUT THE VERSION THAT WAS FINALLY ADOPTED AND CHAMPIONED BY MAJORITY LEADER McCONNELL AS WELL AS REPRESENTATIVE BAR, BROADENED IT TO INCLUDE TRACK SAFETY.

SO BOTH OF THOSE ARE CENTER OF THE FAIRWAY RESPONSIBILITIES OF THIS ORGANIZATION.

THEY OVERLAP BUT THEY ARE DISTINCT BASES OF AUTHORITY.

HISA COULDN'T GO BACK AND ONLY WORK ON THE MEDICATION SIDE IF IT WANTED TO.

BECAUSE THE STATUTE REQUIRE IT IS TO DO BOTH.

NOW, YES, THE JOCKEY CLUB WAS A HUGE SUPPORTER OF HISA.

SO WAS THE BREEDERS CUP.

SO WERE TRACKS LIKE KEEN LAND, SO ULTIMATELY CHURCHILL DOWNS, NIRA, ALSO IN THIS PULLS US BACK TO THE EQUINE SAFETY AND THE SAFETY OF OUR HUMAN ATHLETES AS WELL.

SO DID HUMAN MAIN SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO DID ASPCA LEADING ANIMAL NOT ANIMAL RIGHTS NOT LIKE PETA BUT ANIMAL WELFARE ORGANIZATIONS IN AMERICA SUPPORTED THIS AS A WAY TO PROTECT THE HORSES.

SO.

>> Renee: BUT NOT TO UNDERMINE THE SPORT.

THERE WAS CONCERN THEY WERE PERHAPS WORKING TO UNDERMINE THE SPORT?

>> THERE IS STILL THAT CONCERN THAT THOSE ORGANIZATIONS DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TRUST FACTOR BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF EXTREMISTS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WOULD LIKE TO LET THE HORSES RUN FREE.

>> Renee: AND Mr. HAMELBACK, I WILL POSE MY QUESTION FROM A FORM OF A TWEET WE NEED TO GET MORE DRUGS TO GET THE NO HORSES THROUGH THE HISA VET CHECKS.

I WILL GO TO YOU AND THEN I WILL GET Mr. MORRIS HERE.

>> I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IF THAT WAS A QUESTION.

>> Renee: IT WAS A COMMENT, SIR AND I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD GIVE US YOUR THOUGHTS DO YOU AGREE?

>> ABSOLUTELY I DON'T AGREE.

I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU HAVE TO REALIZE AND MOST PEOPLE DON'T, ESPECIALLY IN TWITTERVERSE BUT THE SCRUTINY THAT THE RACE HORSE IS UNDER NOW BOTH FROM A VETERINARY EXAM PROCESS, REGULATORY EXAM PROCESS, AND TESTING POST RACE AND OR OUT OF COMPETITION, THERE IS NOT A MAGIC DRUG THAT HORSES ARE GETTING THAT GET THEM TO THE RACETRACK.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE COMMONALITY OF ALL OF THE HORSES AT CHURCHILL, THERE ARE TWO THINGS; ONE OBVIOUSLY IT HAPPENED AT CHURCHILL BUT TWO, THEY ALL WENT THROUGH THE SAME REGULATORY PROCESS AND VETERINARY EXAM.

AND YET, THE BULLET POINTS OR THE SAFETY INITIATIVES THAT WERE BROUGHT OUT DID NOT TALK ABOUT A REEVALUATION OF THOSE PROTOCOLS.

SO WE'VE GOT TO LET THE HORSE TELL US WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

AND I THINK THAT AND SENATOR THAYER MENTIONED IT, THERE IS TECHNOLOGY OUT THERE INCLUDING STRIDE SAFE.

I THINK THAT IS AN AVENUE THAT CONTINUES TO BE RESEARCHED, CONTINUES TO BE EXPLORED AS A MATTER OF FACT I BELIEVE WHEN IT FIRST CAME FROM AUSTRALIA, THE FIRST INITIAL TEST BEFORE IT WENT TO NEW YORK WERE DONE WITH THE WASHINGTON HBPA AT EMERALD DOWNS AND THEY ARE GOING BACK THERE WITH ELLIS.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THERE IS TECHNOLOGY OUT THERE.

BUT THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO FALSELY USE THE RHETORIC THAT TRAINERS ARE DOPING HORSES, AND GETTING THEM TO THE RACETRACK IT'S ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS AND JUST NOT TRUE AND THEY DON'T YOU HAD WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

>> Renee: Mr. MORRIS?

>> I THINK THE TWEET WAS REFERRING TO PUBLIC STATEMENTS THAT THE HBPA HAS MADE ABOUT THE USE OF THERAPEUTIC DRUGS.

AND SO IF YOU WERE TO APPLY THE LENS ON THE EID FIGURES THAT SENATOR THAYER TALKED ABOUT THAT 2.0 GOING TO 1.25 THERE'S BEEN A STEADY DECREASE BECAUSE LESS OF A RELIANCE 0 ON THERAPEUTIC DRUGS AND 0 THOSE DRUGS THAT WERE ON THE BUBBLE IF THEY WERE USED BEYOND MEANS TO BE PERFORMANCE ENHANCING.

THE FIRST PART.

THE SECOND PART I WOULD SAY IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO SAY IS NOT ALL GROUPS NOT ALL HORSEMEN AND TRAINERS ARE THEY ARE NOT ALL MADE THE SAME.

YOU HAVE NINE STATES THAT ARE NOT PARTY TO CHALLENGING HISA.

AND THOSE STATES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR 87% OF THE STARTS IN RACING THAT ARE NON-HBPA STATES AND THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION TO MAKE.

>> Renee: ANY OTHER COMMENT THERE BEFORE I GO TO THE NEXT COMMENT FROM A VIEWER IN LEXINGTON?

>> I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT I BELIEVE THE MAJORITY OF HORSEMEN AND WOMEN IN AMERICA FOLLOW THE RULES.

ARE THERE CHEATERS?

ABSOLUTELY.

THREE OF THEM GOT CAUGHT AND THEY ARE GOING TO GO TO THE FEDERAL PENITENTIARY FOR A LONGTIME.

THERE ARE BAD APPLES IN EVERY PROFESSION.

BUT I WANT TO STAND UP FOR THE HORSEMEN HERE THE RULE FOLLOWING HORSEMEN THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE AND WANT TO KNOW THAT THEY ARE APPLIED EQUALLY, ADJUDICATED FAIRLY.

AND THEY WANT THEM TO BE CONSISTENT ACROSS STATE BORDERS.

SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT MAKING IT SEEM LIKE THIS IS A NEFARIOUS BUSINESS.

HORSES ARE TREATED RACE HORSES ARE TREATED BETTER THAN HUMANS IN SOME CASES.

I MEAN THESE HORSES ARE VALUABLE FROM A MONETARY POINT OF VIEW AND THE PEOPLE WHO PROVIDE CARE FOR HORSES FROM THE GROOMS TO THE EXERCISE RIDERS TO THE TRAINERS AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THAT SYSTEM THEY LOVE THESE HORSES.

AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO TRY TO GO TO A FARM A TRAINING CENTER OR A RACETRACK AND LOOK AT THE KIND OF CARE AND THE EXPENSE AND THE TIME AND ENERGY THAT GOES INTO MAKING SURE THESE HORSES ARE TAKEN CARE OF.

AND WHEN ONE DOES UNFORTUNATELY SUFFER A CATASTROPHIC INJURY IT IS HEARTBREAKING, IT IS HEART WRENCHING FOR THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE OWNERSHIP OF THAT HORSE.

I'VE HAD THAT HAPPEN IN RACE HORSE PARTNERSHIPS THAT I'M INVOLVED IN.

YOU INVEST A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY AND LOVE AND CARE.

AND IT BREAKS YOUR HEART WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG AND WE ARE ALL DEDICATED TO MAKING THIS SPORT SAFER TODAY THAN IT WAS YESTERDAY.

>> Renee: SO SOME WOULD ASK IS MORE CARE TAKING FOR THE EQUINE AT LET, THAN THE HUMAN ATHLETE.

WHAT ABOUT THE JOCKEY?

>> I AM A WELL-KNOWN ADVOCATE FOR JOCKEYS.

RIGHT NOW I'M NEGOTIATING ON THEIR BEHALF AS A PRO BONO THING TO DO TO TRY TO GET THEIR PAY INCREASED HERE IN KENTUCKY.

THE JOCKEYS WHO FINISH, ONE, TWO, THREE, GET 10% OF THE PURSE.

THE ONES WHO FINISH OFF THE BOARD AREN'T PAID AS MUCH AS THEY SHOULD BE.

AND I'M TRYING TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

I AM A BIG BELIEVER THAT JOCKEYS POUND FOR POUND ARE THE BEST ATHLETES IN ALL OF SPORTS.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO BALANCING ON THE BALLS OF HER FEET FOR A MINUTE OR TWO MINUTES IN THE COURSE OF A RACE.

MAKING SPLIT SECOND DECISIONS ON A ANIMAL TRAVELING 40-MILES-PER-HOUR SURROUNDED BY OTHER HORSES.

IT IS A DANGEROUS JOB.

AND YES, THE ANSWER IS THERE HAVE BEEN PROTOCOLS CONCUSSION PROTOCOLS THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FUNDED THAT ARE BEING STUDIED AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY RIGHT NOW.

IT'S IMPROVED THE QUALITY OF THE SAFETY HELMET THAT THEY WEAR.

THE SAFETY VEST THAT THEY WEAR.

AND THEN ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO MAKE HORSES SAFER IS CONCURRENTLY GOING TO BE SAFER FOR THE JOCKEYS BECAUSE JOCKEYS CAN AND ARE HURT WHEN HORSES GO DOWN IN THE COURSE OF A RACE.

EXERCISE RIDERS CAN SUFFER THE SAME INJURIES DURING TRAINING.

>> Renee: NATALIE VOSS SAYS 50% OF THE INJURIES INCURRED BY JOCKEYS WHEN THE HORSE FALLS OR SUFFERS AN INJURY.

WE HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS WE WANT TO GET IN.

ANOTHER FROM LEXINGTON WHY ARE THEY ONLY LOOKING AT THE TRACK CONDITIONS AT CHURCHILL DOWNS WERE ARE THEY INVESTIGATING THE RIGOROUS TRAINING PRACTICES BY TRAINERS?

THESE ANIMALS CANNOT TOLERATE BODILY THE TRAINING?

>> THEY ARE NOT.

THEY ARE NOT ONLY LOOKING AT TRACK SURFACES THEY ARE LOOKING THEY ARE REVIEWING EVERYTHING.

AND I CANNOT INFER WHAT THE REST OF THAT QUESTIONER EXCLAMATION POINT WAS BUT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WHEN THESE OCCURRENCES THAT PEOPLE HAVE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT HORSERACING THAT ARE NOT SCIENTIFICALLY OR FAMILIAR KULLY -- FACTUALLY TRUE.

THERE IS A BELIEF WITH THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE UNDERSTANDING OF SPORT HORSES THAT WE ARE RACING THESE HORSES TOO YOUNG.

ACTUALLY WE FOUND VIA VERY DURABLE AND FULSOME SCIENTIFIC DATA THAT HAPPENED IN MULTIPLE COUNTRIES THAT TWO-YEAR-OLD RACING THAT THE EARLIER THAT A HORSE STARTS AND THE MORE THAT IT IS IN TRAINING ACTUALLY THE SOUNDER IT IS.

AS LONG AS YOU ARE FOLLOWING SAFE PARAMETERS AND NOT REALLY POUNDING ON THE HORSE.

>> Renee: SO FOR Mr. HAMELBACK THIS QUESTION TO YOU FROM TERRY FROM BOLLING GREEN.

THE TWO MAJOR HORSEMEN'S GROUP IN AMERICA THE AUTHORIZE REBREAD ASSOCIATION AND THE AUTHORIZE REBREAD OWNERS OF CALIFORNIA FULLY SUPPORT HISA ARE THEY WRONG?

THE QUESTION FROM THE VIEWER?

>> IT IS NOT FOR ME TO SAY IF THEY ARE RIGHT OR WRONG.

IF THEY FEEL THE BILL IS CONSTITUTIONAL, THEN THAT IS THEIR OPINION.

WE DO NOT FEEL THE BILL IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

IT IS NOT AGAIN A PROBLEM WITH RULES, REGULATIONS OR UNIFORMITY.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT DELEGATING GOVERNMENTAL AUTHORITY TO A PRIVATE ENTITY IS THE LEGAL THING TO DO.

I DON'T SPEAK FOR THE TOC.

I DON'T SPEAK FOR THE THA.

>> CAN I RESPOND TO THAT?

I'M GLAD HE MENTIONED THAT BECAUSE OF THE BEST EXAMPLE OF RACING OF DELEGATION -- DELEGATING AUTHORITY TO A PRIVATE ENTITY IS IN THE INTERSTATE HORSERACING ACT OF 1978.

AND THAT IS WHY I HAVE TO SAY HBPA'S POSITION HAS ALWAYS STRUCK ME AS HYPOCRITICAL UNDER THE IHA, THE INTERSTATE HORSERACING ACT OF 1978 EACH HORSEMEN'S GROUP THAT REPRESENTS A MAJORITY HAS TO GIVE THE MAJORITY OF HORSEMEN AT A TRACK HAS TO GIVE ITS CONSENT BEFORE THERE CAN BE SOMETIMELE INDICATING.

SENDING THE SIGNAL NOW.

90% OF THE HANDLE COMES FROM THIS BETTING AND IT GOES ACROSS STATE LINES THEY HAVE TO GIVE THEIR CONSENT BUT THEY ARE A PRIVATE ENTITY.

AND THAT CONSENT COMES IN THE FORM OF A CONTRACT WHICH I ACTUALLY HELPED KTA YEARS AGO NEGOTIATE SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH HBPA IN KENTUCKY AND THOSE CONTRACTS GOVERN ALL MANNER OF THINGS AT THE RACETRACK.

A LOT MORE THAN JUST HOW WE'RE GOING TO SMITH UP THE MONEY FROM -- SPLIT UP THE MONEY FROM SIMULCASTING.

THERE WAS A LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST HBPA YEARS AGO AND THE BLAME WAS IT WAS AN UNLAWFUL DELEGATION OF AUTHORITY TO A PRIVATE ENTITY AND A 10TH AMENDMENT ALLEGATION IN THAT GUESS WHAT?

THE SIXTH CIRCUIT SAID NO IT WAS NOT AN UNLAWFUL DELL DWATION TO A PRIVATE AUTHORITY.

HERE IS THE 46789BPA AND THEY ARE THE HORSEMEN'S GROUP IN KENTUCKY AND MANY OTHER STATES THAT ARE SUING HISA.

THERE ARE A BUNCH OF WESTERN HBPA CHAPTERS THAT ARE SUING SAYING IT'S OK FOR US AS A PRIVATE ENTITY TO HAVE THIS MUCH AUTHORITY BUT IT IS NOT OK FOR ANOTHER ENTITY AND THE DIFFERENCE IS HISA IS UNDER THE UMBRELLA AND CONTROLLED BY THE FTC.

>> Renee: FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION.

>> THESE HBPA CHAPTERS ARE NOT UNDER ANYBODY'S CONTROL.

>> Renee: Mr. HAMELBACK IS IT HYPOCRITICAL, SIR.

>> NO, MA'AM, I DO NOT THINK IT IS.

Mr. LEAR IS CORRECT BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY HE LEAVES OUT THE FACT THAT HBPA BOARDS ARE ELECTED BY THE MEMBERSHIP.

THERE IS NO COMMITTEEMEMBERS.

THERE'S NO AUTHORITY MEMBERS THAT WERE ELECTED BY ANYONE WITHIN THE INDUSTRY.

THEY WERE ALL APPOINTED BY WHOM MOST OF US DO NOT KNOW, THERE WAS AN APPOINTMENT OF A NOMINATING COMMITTEE AND THEN THE APPOINTMENTS WERE MADE FOR THE TWO COMMITTEES AND THEN ANY SUBCOMMITTEES.

SO AGAIN, WE ARE ELECTED OFFICIALS.

NO DIFFERENT THAN SENATOR THAYER.

>> Renee: AND I THINK YOU WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING, SIR?

>> I'M NOT A LAWYER NOR AM I GOING TO PLAY ONE ON TV TONIGHT WE ARE GETTING INTO A LOT OF LEGALESE HERE.

THE COURTS ARE GOING TO DECIDE THE LEGALITY OF HISA AND I HAD LOTS OF CALLS THIS WEEKEND URGING ME NOT TO BE CRITICAL OF HISA DURING THIS TIME.

BUT YOU KNOW, DISSENT IS PART OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT.

AND I'M HERE TONIGHT TO PROVIDE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IN THE EVENT HISA LIVES OR IN THE EVENT THAT IT DIES F IT DIES I'VE GOT AN ALTERNATIVE SITTING OUT THERE FOR 1212 YEARS AND I WILL BE PART OF TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK.

IF IT LIVES I WANT IT TO WORK AND THE SUGGESTION IT NEEDS TO SIMPLIFY ITS FOCUS.

AND I'VE SPOKEN TO LEADER McCONNELL AND CONGRESSMAN BAR ABOUT AMENDING THE BILL.

>> Renee: DO THEY FAVOR THAT?

>> I WILL NOT SPEAK FOR THEM.

>> Renee: DID THEY GIVE YOU ANY INDICATION THAT THEY WOULD BE WILLING?

>> THINK THEY LIKE THE BILL THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW.

THEY AUTHORED IT AND IT'S FINE AND I COMPLIMENT LEADER McCONNELL FOR PUTTING A PROVISION IN THE OMNIBUS BILL THAT DID PUT THE FTC OVER HISA.

BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY FROM AN UNELECTED APPOINTED FEDERAL AGENCY.

AND WE ALL ESPECIALLY OF US ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT AGENCIES WHETHER STATE OR FEDERAL SORT OF RUNNING AMOK.

AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT.

I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT AN UNELECTED FEDERAL AGENCY WAS GOING TO TELL A PRIVATE BUSINESS THAT IS FOLLOWING ALL THE RULES AND PROTOCOLS THAT THEY HAD TO SHUTDOWN.

AND I WANT TO REPEAT CHURCHILL DOWNS CLOSED DOWN VOLUNTARILY BUT I'M CONCERNED THERE WAS THE POSSIBILITY THAT MS. LAZARUS IN THE ROLE AS PRESIDENT OF HISA WAS GOING TO TELL THAT PRIVATE BUSINESS TO SHUTDOWN.

THAT IS A CONCERN.

>> Renee: OR HAS THE PRECEDENT BEEN SET WITH CHURCHILL DOWNS MAKING THAT MOVE THAT OTHER TRACKS FIND THEMSELVES IN A SITUATION THEY WILL DO THE SAME IS THAT A CONCERN?

>> YES, IT IS A CONCERN OF MINE.

CHURCHILL DOWNS DID NOT NEED [AUDIO INTERRUPTION].

>> Renee: NOTHING WRONG WITH THE INVESTIGATORS TAKING TIME TO FIGURE IT IT OUT.

>> I THINK THEY DID THE RIGHT THING.

THEY TOOK THE HIGH ROAD AND THEY PURCHASED ELLIS PARK AND THEIR TEAM DID A GREAT JOB MOVE TO GO DOWN TO ELLIS PARK AND I SAW IT YESTERDAY.

I WANT UNIFORMITY.

I HAVE BEEN ON THE RECORD FOR THAT A LONGTIME.

BUT I THINK HISA IS STILL NEW.

AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE BUMPS IN THE ROAD.

AND IT NEEDS TO BE WILLING TO ACCEPT SOME CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM TO HELP MAKE IT BETTER.

I'M HAPPY THEY FORMED A HORSEMEN'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE, THE TRAINER WHO WORK, AND TOMMY A FRIEND OF MINE HE IS ON THE HORSEMEN'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT WAS DONE AFTER THE INITIAL LAUNCH.

JOHNNY VAL LAZ QUESTION IS ON THE JOCKEY SAFETY COMMITTEE THEY HAVE TO LISTEN TO ONE OF THE GREATEST JOCKEYS OF ALL TIME.

MARK HAS BEEN WORKING WITH THEM ON THE CROP RULES AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT TRYING TO TELL THE ATHLETES HOW TO DO THEIR JOBS.

LET'S FOCUS ON MEDICATION, UNIFORMITY, ACROSS STATES.

AND I THINK THERE WILL BE PORE BUY IN.

>> Renee: AND WE DID REACH OUT TO CHURCHILL ABOUT PARTICIPATING IN THE PROGRAM BUT WE DID NOT HEAR BACK.

Mr. HAMELBACK, BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A TIMER.

I WILL GIVE YOU A COUPLE OF CLOSING THOUGHTS TO SHARE WITH US.

>> WELL, I JUST WANT TO FIRST START OUT BY SAYING THAT IN MANY ASPECTS WE WOULD CONSIDER A WIN ALREADY.

IN OTHER WORDS THE ORIGINAL BILL WHICH WE WERE TOLD MULTIPLE TIMES WAS COMPLETELY CONSTITUTIONAL IN FACT WAS DECLARED UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND FORCED SENATOR McCONNELL TO PUT IN A FIX.

WE'LL SEE IF THAT FIX KEEP IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT I WANT TO POINT OUT REAL QUICK I WISH I HAD MORE TIME BECAUSE THE REAL CONCERN THAT THE NATIONAL HBPA AND AT ONE TIME EVERY HORSEMEN'S GROUP WHO TALKED ABOUT THIS ON CAPITOL HILL WAS THE COST.

WHAT IS IT GOING TO COST THE INDUSTRY?

AND THAT CONTINUES TO BE A CONCERN WITH CURRENTLY THE PRICE TAG OF $66 MILLION ADDED TO THE INDUSTRY.

HOW WILL THE INDUSTRY BE ABLE TO PAY FOR IT?

AGAIN WE ARE PAYING FOR A DUE LICK ACTIVE PROCESS.

DUPLICATIVE PROCESS.

THE COMMISSIONS WERE ALREADY IN PLACE UNTIL THE NUCLEAR BOMB BLUE THEM UP.

>> Renee: WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE AND HOW IT AFFECTS SMALLER ENTITIES.

WE WILL REVISIT IT AGAIN ON KENTUCKY EDITION EACH WEEKNIGHT AT 6:30.

Next week on ‘Kentucky Tonight,’ a discussion about LGBTQ issues and Senate Bill 150.

Be sure to join us each weeknight at 6:30 Eastern, 5:30 Central for ‘Kentucky Edition.’ And join Bill Bryant and a team of working journalists to discuss the news of the week on ‘Comment on Kentucky,’ Friday at eight Eastern, seven Central.

Have a good week.