>> JON: VIEWERS OF A CERTAIN AGE WILL NO DOUBT REMEMBER “FATHER KNOWS BEST,” THE 1950S TV SERIES THAT FOLLOWED AN IDEALIZED, UBER-WHOLESOME FAMILY FROM A HOMOGENOUS MIDWESTERN TOWN AS THEY WORKED THROUGH “CHALLENGE”" SUCH AS THE ADOPTION OF AN UNWANTED DOG, THE CLOSURE OF A FAVORITE HANGOUT, AND THE LACK OF A DATE TO THE SADIE HAWKINS DANCE.

NOSTALGIC FANS HUNGRY FOR A SEQUEL MIGHT LOOK TO A RAFT OF SCHOOL REFORM MEASURES ADVANCING IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY THIS SESSION.

SOME OF THE PROVISIONS WOULD BAR TEACHERS FROM WEIGHING IN ON POTENTIALLY DIVISIVE SOCIAL ISSUES, INCLUDING RACISM AND GENDER INEQUALITY.

SOME WOULD OPEN SCHOOLS AND CERTAIN LIBRARIES TO CRIMINAL PROSECUTION FOR DISSEMINATING MATERIALS DEEMED HARMFUL TO MINORS.

AND, IN KEEPING WITH THE BELIEF THAT FATHERS - AND MOTHERS - ALWAYS KNOW BEST, SOME PROVISIONS WOULD EMPOWER PARENTS TO REVIEW LESSON PLANS, REJECT ASSIGNMENTS, OPT OUT OF SCHOOL MASK AND VACCINE REQUIREMENTS, AND BLOCK THE DELIVERY OF MENTAL HEALTH EVALUATIONS AND SERVICES.

FOR MANY MEMBERS OF THE INCREASINGLY CONSERVATIVE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, SUCH ISSUES ARE, LIKE THE DECADES-OLD TV SERIES, BLACK AND WHITE.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON THIS EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, WE'LL EXAMINE THE HIGHLY CHARGED EDUCATION DEBATE MAKING HEADLINES THIS SESSION.

INDIANA LAWMAKERS FROM THE STATEHOUSE TO YOUR HOUSE.

♪♪ YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT FOR A YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT FOR A DECADE OR MORE, EDUCATION DEBATES IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAVE CENTERED ON MANY OF THE SAME FAMILIAR ISSUES - STANDARDIZED TESTING, NONTRADITIONAL EDUCATION, TEACHER TRAINING AND COMPENSATION, SCHOOL DISTRICT P SCHOOL CHOICE.

THIS YEAR WELL NOT SO MUCH.

TO BE CLEAR, PERENNIAL ISSUES HAVEN'T DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY - LAWMAKERS STILL INTRODUCED PET BILLS ON CURSIVE WRITING, BULLYING, AND SCHOOL BUS SAFETY - BUT, AS I NOTED AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW, HOT-BUTTON SOCIAL ISSUES HAVE DOMINATED THE SESSION.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THIS PHENOMENON AND ITS LONG-TERM RAMIFICATIONS ARE TERRY SPRADLIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE INDIANA SCHOOL BOARDS ASSOCIATION AND FORMER DIRECTOR FOR EDUCATION POLICY AT INDIANA UNIVERSITY'S CENTER FOR EVALUATION AND EDUCATION POLICY AND STATE REPRESENTATIVE TONYA PFAFF, A TERRE HAUTE DEMOCRAT WHO SERVES ON THE HOUSE EDUCATION COMMITTEE AND, PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANTLY, HAS SPENT 28 YEARS AS A HIGH SCHOOL MATH TEACHER.

THANK YOU, BOTH, FOR BEING HERE FOR WHAT I THINK WILL BE AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

LET'S START WITH YOU CAN'T NOT TALK ABOUT COVID, RIGHT?

BY ALL ACCOUNTS, SCHOOLS HERE AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE STILL REELING FROM COVID AND ITS VARIANTS.

GIVEN THAT, WHAT DO THE TWO OF YOU THINK LAWMAKERS SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON IN TERMS OF EDUCATION AND SCHOOL IMPROVEMENT THIS SESSION.

LET'S START, TERRY, WITH YOU.

>> JON, THANKS FOR THE INVITATION, THANKS FOR THAT QUESTION.

IT'S A SHORT SESSION, EIGHT OR NINE WEEKS, WEEK FOUR ALREADY.

WE ASKED LEGISLATORS TO FOCUS ON GIVING US THE TOOLS, RESOURCES AND LOCAL CONTROL TO CONTINUE TO MANAGE THROUGH THE SITUATION.

IN JULY, THE GOVERNOR SHIFTED KIND OF THE DUTY AND BURDEN ON ADAPTING AND PIVOTING TO COVID WITH OUR HEALTH AND SAFETY PROTOCOLS LOCALLY.

WE'VE BEEN WORKING CLOSELY WITH THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, ALL OF OUR SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

SO, FOR THIS SESSION, WE'D SAY, YOU KNOW, LET US CONTINUE OUR EFFORT TO KEEP KIDS IN SCHOOL.

AND SHY AWAY FROM THE EFFORTS TO INJECT MORE POLITICS INTO THE CLASSROOM.

THERE'S A LOT OF BILLS AROUND PARTISAN SCHOOL BOARD ELECTIONS.

OTHER ISSUES THAT WOULD INJECT MORE POLITICS IN THE CLASSROOM.

WE'RE SAYING PLEASE DON'T DO THAT.

WE'RE WORKING HARD TO KEEP KIDS IN SCHOOL, POSITIVITY RATES HAVE SPIKED AGAIN.

MANY OF THE COUNTIES, ALL COUNTIES WERE RED JUST A SHORT TIME AGO.

A FEW DAYS AGO, OR WEEKS AGO.

SO THESE ARE STILL CHALLENGING TIMES.

COVID HAS BEEN RELENTLESS.

AND SO WE'RE SEEING GIVE US THE RESOURCES WE NEED, WHICH THEY DID IN THE LAST BUDGET SESSION.

WE HAVE DONE A GREAT JOB IN LEVERAGING THOSE RESOURCES TO DRIVE TEACHER PAY.

THAT'S BEEN OUR FOCUS, AND GETTING HIGHLY QUALIFIED TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM, KEEPING KIDS IN THE CLASSROOM.

WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION, STUDENTS ALWAYS COME FIRST.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING OF THEM THIS SESSION.

>> TONYA PFAFF, HOW ABOUT YOU?

WHAT SHOULD YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES BE FOCUSED ON IN TERMS OF EDUCATION THIS SESSION?

>> I WOULD HAVE, OF COURSE THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE, I WOULD ALWAYS WANT MORE RESOURCES, AND HELP US RECRUIT AND RETAIN TEACHERS.

A LOT OF THESE BILLS THAT WE'RE HEARING THIS SESSION ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO DRIVE TEACHERS OUT.

IT CERTAINLY SEEMS LIKE IT.

THE BILL WE HEARD YESTERDAY, I GOT OVER 900 EMAILS ASKING ME TO VOTE AGAINST IT.

THAT DOES NOT HELP OUR TEACHER SHORTAGE.

WE HAVE TO CONTINUE FACE-TO-FACE INSTRUCTION AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

SO, AGAIN, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SHOULD BE HELPING TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO BOOST OUR PROFESSION, NOT HURT IT.

>> LET ME ASK, A LOT OF THESE BILLS, IF YOU READ THEM, YOU GET THE SENSE THAT SCHOOLS ARE JUST -- INDIANA SCHOOLS HAVE SORT OF -- ARE OUT OF CONTROL, THAT, YOU KNOW, HOME ROOM TEACHERS ARE DISTRIBUTING COPIES OF HUSTLER MAGAZINE IN THE MORNINGS AND THEN TEACHERS ARE READING EXCERPTS FROM LINDEN AND MARKS AFTER RECESS.

WHAT'S THE REAL PICTURE?

YOU'RE IN THE CLASSROOM AND YOU HAVE BEEN CLOSE FOR THREE DECADES, TONYA.

ARE YOU -- DO YOU HAVE YOUR COPY OF THE MARX READER IN YOUR DESK THAT YOU PULL OUT ON OCCASION?

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

IF YOU ASK ANY HIGH SCHOOL, MIDDLE SCHOOL WHAT THEY'RE LEARNING, NONE OF WHAT YOU MENTION.

ON A TYPICAL DAY, I WAS JUST TEACHING THE DAY BEFORE SESSION, WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT ALGEBRA.

THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

WE'RE PROFESSIONALS, WE EDUCATE OUR KIDS.

I'M NOT SAYING THERE AREN'T BAD ACTORS, THERE IS ALSO A SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR REMOVING THOSE.

THERE MAY BE A BOOK IN A SCHOOL LIBRARY THAT A PARENT DISAGREES WITH.

IT IS NOT ON EVERY TEACHER'S BOOKSHELF, IS THERE IS A BOOK THAT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH, THERE IS A PROCESS IN PLACE.

IF YOU WENT IN ANY PUBLIC SCHOOL IN INDIANA, YOU WOULD HEAR PROBABLY WHAT YOU HEARD YEARS AGO, JUST TEACHERS TEACHING THEIR SUBJECT AND ENGAGING STUDENTS.

>> HAVE YOU HEARD FROM CONSTITUENTS CONCERNED ABOUT THE LESSON PLANS AND COURSE MATERIALS THAT MIGHT BE TOO POLITICAL, MIGHT BE -- AND AGAIN I'M NOT MAKING UP THE MARXIST THING, TODD ROKITA SAID THEY ARE TEACHING THAT.

>> FROM MY CONSTITUENTS, NO.

I'M SURE THERE BE PROBLEMS OUT THERE AROUND THE STATE.

BUT AGAIN, THERE IS A SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR HANDLING PARENTAL COMPLAINTS, CURRICULUM YOU DON'T AGREE WITH.

THE BILL YESTERDAY, I WANT TO MAKE SURE TERRY GETS TO TALK.

IT JUST CHANGES WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IN THE CLASSROOM.

I THINK WE'RE DOING A GREAT JOB RIGHT NOW.

AS A LAWMAKER, I KIND OF LIKE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO TREAT US LIKE PROFESSIONALS AND LET US DO OR JOB.

>> TERRY SPRADLIN, YOU HAVE YOUR FINGER ON SCHOOL DISTRICTS ACROSS THE STATE BECAUSE OF YOUR ROLE WITH THE ASSOCIATION.

DO YOU HEAR REPORTS OF -- THAT -- THE SAME TYPES OF THINGS THAT THE AUTHORS OF SOME OF THESE BILLS WHERE THEY EXPRESS CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT IN THE CLASSROOM, THE NOTION OF POTENTIAL BRAIN WASHING OF KIDS?

DO YOU GET MUCH OF THAT BUBBLING UP TO YOU?

>> I'VE TALKED TO LEGISLATORS HEADING INTO THE SESSION MONTHS AHEAD OF THE SESSION, I CERTAINLY HEARD FROM THEM THAT THEY HEARD FROM A FEW CONSTITUENTS.

CERTAINLY AT SOME OF OUR BOARD MEETINGS OVER THE SUMMER AND FALL, THERE WAS SOME DIVISIVENESS IN THE BOARD ROOM WHERE GROUPS OF PEOPLE CAME TO SHARE CONCERN.

BUT THIS IS LIKE LEGISLATING, SWATTING A FLY WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

THERE ARE EXAMPLES OF WHAT WE WOULD CALL GREAT BOOKS OR CLASSIC LITERATURE THAT HAS PASSAGES THAT SUBJECT ARE SEXUALLY EXPLICIT MATERIAL, NOT PORNOGRAPHIC BUT SEC SECTION -- ABSOLUTELY EXPLICIT, HUCK FINN.

IT IS SUBJECTIVE, WE DON'T THINK THE LEGISLATURE SHOULD OVERREACH ON THIS.

AND THERE IS A PROCESS LOCALLY, ANYONE WITH CONCERNS ABOUT LITERATURE, OR EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS CAN TALK TO THE CLASSROOM TEACHER, ASK FOR ALTERNATIVE MATERIALS TO BE PRESENTED TO THEIR CHILD, USUALLY THAT'S APPROVED.

THE PARENTS CAN TALK TO THE PRINCIPAL, IT CAN BE ESCALATED TO THE BOARD.

AND MOST SCHOOL BOARDS HAVE CURRICULAR REVIEW OR TEXTBOOK ADOPTION COMMITTEES INCLUDING PARENTS TO REVIEW EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS, AND TEXTBOOKS, AND SCHOOL LIBRARY MATERIALS.

THERE IS A PROCESS LOCALLY.

WE'VE MANAGED THIS FOR YEARS.

IT'S NOT A CRISIS.

IT IS A NUISANCE IN SOME SITUATIONS WHERE FOLKS HAVE REALLY LATCHED ON TO THIS AS A POLITICAL AGENDA.

AND SO WE HOPE PEOPLE WILL CALM DOWN AND LET COOLER HEADS PREVAIL LET'S NOT UPSET THE APPLE CART FOR A FEW MINER INSTANCES HERE AND THERE THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF INDIANA.

>> HOW MUCH OF THIS HAS SPURRED FROM NATIONAL GROUPS?

WE'RE SEEING THE SAME SORTS OF LEGISLATION ALMOST VERBATIM, FROM STATE TO STATE, AND SOME THINGS HAVE ENACTED BANDS ON CRITICAL RACE THEORY, WHICH ISN'T TAUGHT IN K-12 IN INDIANA.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT IS HOMEGROWN, OR IS THIS BEING FUELED NATIONALLY, DO YOU THINK?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY NATIONAL.

THERE ARE GROUPS, AS YOU INDICATED THAT HAVE A POLITICAL AGENDA.

SOME HAVE SUGGESTED IT'S A MID TERM ELECTION STRATEGY.

PLAYED OUT IN THE STATE OF VIRGINIA DURING THEIR ELECTION CYCLE.

IN 2021.

AND BECAUSE OF THE OUTCOME OF THAT ELECTION, WE BOTH SAID SEE, IT WORKS.

LET'S MAKE SCHOOL BOARDS THE BATTLEGROUND ON SOCIAL ISSUES.

AND TREAT THAT DIVISIVENESS.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT HAS TRICKLED INTO THE STATE OF INDIANA, AS WELL.

AGAIN, THERE HAVE BEEN INSTANCES WHERE BOARDS HAD DIVISIVE MEETINGS WITH INDIVIDUALS OR GROUPS OF PEOPLE COMING TO THE BOARDROOM WITH THE INTENT TO DISRUPT.

AND EVEN IF THE TOPIC WAS NOT ON THE AGENDA THEY MADE SURE TO BE HEARD, AND OFTENTIMES WERE DISRUPTIVE, LOUD, SHOUTING OBSCENITIES.

THERE WERE SOME EXAMPLES THAT WERE NOT GOOD EXAMPLES OF ADULT BEHAVIOR, BUT THOUGHTFUL, RESPECTIVE CIVIL ENGAGEMENT, AND WE SHOULD NOT CONDONE THAT BEHAVIOR, OFTENTIMES ESCALATED TO THE LEVEL OF HARASSMENT, INTIMIDATION OR THREAT OF SOME OF OUR SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS.

THAT'S A NOT THE TYPE OF GOVERNANCE MODEL WE WANT IN THE STATE OF INDIANA.

I THINK THAT HAS SETTLED DOWN.

WE'RE NOT EXPERIENCING THAT IN THE BOARD ROOM.

WE'RE HOPING COOLER HEADS WILL PREVAIL, LET'S BE PRAGMATIC AND PRACTICAL, NOT OVERREACH FOR SOMETHING THAT IS NOT ESCALATED TO THE DEGREE THAT THIS LEGISLATION IS WARRANTS.

>> ONE BILL THAT SEEMS TO HAVE GARNERED SOME BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, AND HAS ADVANCED OUT OF ITS HOUSE OF ORIGIN WOULD BE A REQUIREMENT THAT SCHOOL BOARDS IN MOST CIRCUMSTANCES HAVE IN-PERSON MEETINGS, THEY WOULD LIMIT THE TYPES OF CIRCUMSTANCES IN A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY WHERE PEOPLE COULD MEET THROUGH ZOOM AND OTHER ELECTRONIC PLATFORMS.

AND MORE IMPORTANT IT WOULD REQUIRE PUBLIC TESTIMONY OR INPUT IF PEOPLE WANT TO TALK, AND ONE BILL ACTUALLY SPECIFIES THREE MINUTES PER ATTENDEE, TONYA PFAFF, GOOD IDEA TO -- SOUNDS LIKE THE NEW ENGLAND SCHOOLHOUSE, OPEN THE DOORS AND LET THE TAXPAYERS COME IN AND WEIGH IN.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO, IN MY SCHOOL ON THE WEST SIDE OF INDIANA, WE HAVE THIS.

WE'VE HAD IT -- WE'VE HAD REALLY LONG SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS BECAUSE OF PUBLIC TESTIMONY, WHICH IS GREAT.

WE WANT TO HEAR FROM PEOPLE, IT'S THEIR TAX DOLLARS.

SO I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT.

AND THE MORE WE HEAR FROM PEOPLE, THE BETTER.

AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T TAKE WEEKS TO MAKE A DECISION.

>> I WAS JOKING BEFORE THE TAPING, IS THIS THE NEW FORM OF FILIBUSTER WHERE IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OF PARENTS OR TAXPAYERS WHO WERE WANTING TO BLOCK AN ISSUE, SAY, I GUESS YOU COULD LINE UP 100 OR 200 TRUE BELIEVERS IN THE CAUSE, AND HAVE THEM APPROACH THE MICROPHONE THREE MINUTES AT A TIME.

AND THAT WOULD PUSH THE MEETING, THE VOTE PROBABLY TO 6:00 A.M. ON A MEETING THAT STARTS THE PREVIOUS EVENINGS.

IS THAT A REAL CONSIDERATION?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, MOST SCHOOL BOARDS, ALMOST ALL, HAVE ALWAYS ACCOMMODATED PUBLIC COMMENT.

SO THERE WERE A FEW BECAUSE OF THE DIVISIVENESS THAT THEY EXPERIENCED WITH THE THREATS AND INTIMIDATION AND HARASSMENT ISSUES THAT TEMPORARILY SUSPENDED PUBLIC COMMENT.

BUT THOSE TWO BOARDS HAVE RESUMED RECENTLY PUBLIC COMMENT.

THE PUBLIC COMMENT ISSUE IS NOT REALLY SOMETHING WE WOULD OBJECT TO, WE BELIEVE IN IT, WE WANT TO HEAR FROM PARENTS, CITIZENS, AND STAKEHOLDERS IN THE COMMUNITY.

SCHOOL DISTRICTS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE EMBRACE PARENTAL ENGAGEMENT, AND PARTNERSHIPS.

SO GIVING THEM THE AVENUE FOR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO BE HEARD IS SOMETHING WE SUPPORT.

BUT WE DO NEED THE ABILITY TO MANAGE THE MEETING EFFECTIVELY.

WE NEED OUR BOARD PRESIDENT AS CHAIR.

SO WE CAN GET THROUGH THE BOARD BUSINESS.

THERE WAS ONE BOARD MEETING AT -- MADISON THAT WENT TO 1:00 A.M., BECAUSE OF WANTING TO GIVE EVERYONE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD.

TYPICALLY IT IS 3 MINUTES THAT MOST BOARDS HAVE IN THEIR POLICY.

AGAIN, HERE'S AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE OF A COUPLE OF LOCAL ISSUES WE'RE OVERREACHING AND LEGISLATING WHERE WE CAN REALLY DEAL WITH THIS LOCALLY, THE LEGISLATION IS NOT NEEDED.

WE EMBRACE PUBLIC COMMENT, IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE DISCRETION IN MANAGING THE MEETING SO WE CAN MOVE ON TO OTHER BUSINESS.

>> AND THE INPUT WOULDN'T STOP IF SOME OF THESE BILLS ARE ENACTED WITH JUST INPUT AT FORMAL SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS, SOME OF THE LEGISLATION CALLS FOR THE CREATION OF ADVISORY BOARDS THAT WOULD BE MADE UP OF PARENTS AND OTHERS THAT WOULD REVIEW COURSE MATERIALS AND CURRICULA, AND THE WHOLE SHEBANG.

PRESUMABLY WITH, I GUESS, VETO POWER, IN SOME MANNER.

I'M NOT SURE THAT'S CLEAR ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IF THEY DISAGREE, IF THAT'S AN AUTOMATIC TOSS OF THAT MATERIAL OR LESSON PLANS.

IS THAT -- THAT'S CLEARLY NOT ENJOYING WIDESPREAD SUPPORT AS THE NOTION OF PUBLIC TESTIMONY AT SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS.

THIS ONE SEEMS TO BE MORE OF A DIFFICULT PILL FOR SCHOOL BOARDS TO SWALLOW, IS THAT FAIR, TERRY?

>> YOU KNOW, AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, WE DO HAVE TYPICALLY COMMITTEES FOR TEXTBOOK REVIEW.

REVIEW OF CURRICULAR MATERIALS.

SO THE ISSUES, WHAT ARE WE CHARGED WITH REVIEWING UNDER THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION, IT IS A TO Z, EVERY GRADE LEVEL, EVERY SUBJECT, EVERY YEAR.

THAT'S AN OVERREACH.

I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TEACHERS WHO WOULD SIGN UP FOR THAT DUTY.

A TALL TASK.

LOCAL CONTROL, IF MAY A MASK TEXTBOOK ADOPTION, WE LOOK AT MATH TEXT BOOKS, IF WE HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO OBJECT, TEN TO 15 BOOKS IN LIBRARY STACKS, LET US REVIEW THOSE THINGS ON A LIMITED BASIS, OR IF A COMMITTEE HAS MORE TIME AND INTEREST TO LOOK MORE BROADLY AT EDUCATION MATERIALS, THAT'S FINE, BUT WE SHOULDN'T MANDATE THAT EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL BOARD HAVE AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT MUST LOOK AT EVERYTHING OVER THE COURSE OF A YEAR.

IT IS JUST UNNECESSARY.

>> TONYA PFAFF, DO YOU AGREE?

AND TERRY SAID NOT MANY TEACHERS PROBABLY WOULD BE INCLINED TO SERVE, HERE IS YOUR INVITATION.

A, WOULD YOU SERVE ON SUCH A PANEL, AND B, ARE SUCH PANELS NECESSARY?

>> SO I'VE SAT ON MANY TEXTBOOK ADOPTION COMMITTEES, AND WE'VE WELCOMED PARENTS.

IN FACT, PROBABLY 15 YEARS AGO, MAP ADOPTION TEXT TIME, SO WE WENT, WE HEARD ALL ABOUT THESE DIFFERENT MATH TEXTBOOKS, AND THIS PARENT IS THIS IS REALLY BOX IT IS ALGEBRA ONE AND TWO.

WE WELCOME PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT.

THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE TO ME, THE ISSUE IS WE ARE PROFESSIONALS, I NEED TO LOOK AT ACADEMIC STANDARDS, PACING GUIDE, THE CURRICULUM, AND I NEED TO PICK THE BEST BOOKS FOR MY SUBJECT.

YOU KNOW, ELEMENTARY, MID SCHOOL, SCIENCE, WHATEVER THE CASE, WE'RE THE PROFESSIONALS.

WE HAVE A DEGREE, WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING.

JUST LET US DO OUR JOB.

AND THEN AS TERRY SAID AT THE END, PLEASE, PARENTS COME IN.

BUT DON'T CONTROL 60% OF THE DECISION-MAKING FOR WHAT I'M SUPPOSED TO TEACH IN MY CLASSROOM.

>> ANOTHER PROVISION WOULD IN FACT MAKE IT EASIER, WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS AN ADVISORY BOARD.

MAKE IT EASIER FOR PARENTS EVEN THOSE WHO AREN'T ON AN ADVISORY BOARD TO REVIEW AND WEIGH IN ON COURSE MATERIALS AND WHAT NOT BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NEW REQUIREMENTS, AND I THINK IN MANY CASES THIS IS ALREADY DONE.

BUT THE POSTING OF LESSON PLANS AND CURRICULA, AND ON A FORMAL DISTRICT WEBSITE WITH THE ABILITY OF PARENTS TO UPON REVIEWING THAT EITHER OPT OUT OF CERTAIN TYPES OF PLANS, AND COURSE MATERIALS, OR, SAY, MY KID DOESN'T WANT TO DO THIS.

THEN THAT OPENS THE DOOR TO TEACHERS, I SUPPOSE, HAVING TO COME UP WITH ALTERNATIVE PLANS.

TERRY SPRADLIN, IS THAT MORE CONCERNING FROM A PHILOSOPHICAL STANDPOINT OR A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT?

>> PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, RIGHT, WE WANT TO BE TRANSPARENT.

EVERY SCHOOL DISTRICT HAS LEARNING MANAGEMENT SYSTEM WHERE PARENTS CAN LOG IN, TRACK THEIR STUDENT'S PROGRESS ACADEMICALLY, HOME WORK AND ASSIGNMENTS, WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT IN A CLASSROOM.

THE HISTORICAL PARENT ENGAGEMENT, EATING LUNCH...WE STILL EMBRACE THAT.

PTO, PTAs ARE WAYS FOR PARENTS TO ENGAGE -- ON A POLITICAL AGENDA TO OBJECT TO MATERIALS THEY FIND INAPPROPRIATE OR NOT ALIGNED TO THEIR PHILOSOPHY OR IDEOLOGY.

SO THAT'S THE CONCERN THERE.

THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE IS FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, THOUGH, IS THAT A TEACHER WOULD HAVE TO POST WITHIN FIVE DAYS THEIR LESSON PLAN.

AND TEACHERS, BECAUSE THEY'RE SO CRAFTED AND SKILLED AT WHAT THEY DO, THEY MAY CHANGE THEIR LESSON PLAN ON THE SAME SUBJECT THREE OR FOUR TIMES IN ONE DAY.

SO WE CAN'T HAMSTRING TEACHERS AND SAY, WAIT A SECOND, I FORGOT TO POST THAT, NOW I CAN'T TEACH THIS STANDARD OR THIS SUBJECT IN A WAY THAT I'M SKILLED TO TEACH IT BECAUSE JOHNNY OR SALLY AREN'T UNDERSTANDING, I NEED TO CHANGE, WAIT, I CAN'T, BECAUSE IT IS NOT POSTED.

IT IS HAMPERING THE SKILL, ABILITY, AND TALENT.

THIS TIME OF LEGISLATION WILL DRIVE PEOPLE IDENTITY OF THE PROFESSION.

THAT'S THE CONCERN.

>> AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT MOST DISTRICTS, IF NOT ALL, ALREADY HAVE A POLICY WHERE THESE THINGS ARE POSTED AND AVAILABLE FOR INSPECTION.

I GUESS WHAT MAKES THE ADDED WRINKLE HERE WOULD BE THE NOTION THAT IT IS A TWO-WAY CONVERSATION, SO TO SPEAK.

YOU'RE NOT JUST, AS A PARENT OR A STAKEHOLDER IN THE COMMUNITY, PRIVY TO THE LESSON PLAN.

BUT IF I UNDERSTAND THE LEGISLATION AS IT IS CURRENTLY WRITTEN, IT WOULD REQUIRE DISTRICTS TO SET UP SOME MECHANISM WHERE I COULD SAY, OKAY, MY KID CAN DO MATH, BUT SOCIAL STUDIES SEEMS A LITTLE QUESTIONABLE THIS WEEK.

SO NO, ON THAT.

AND WE'RE LOOKING AT SEX EDUCATION AND PE CLASS, SO, NO, TO THAT.

I MEAN, AM I RIGHT?

THAT'S THE WAY IT WOULD WORK, AND AM I RIGHT THAT TEACHERS WOULD HAVE TO COME UP WITH ALTERNATIVES, AND IF THAT IS THE CASE, TONYA PFAFF, AS TERRY SPRADLIN SUGGESTS MAKE AN ALREADY TOUGH JOB THAT TEACHERS HAVE EVEN TOUGHER?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE BIGGER CHALLENGE TO ME, AGAIN, IN THE HIGH SCHOOL, THE KID JUST DOESN'T WANT TO LEARN THE QUAD DRADIC FORMULA, THEY COME AND AND OPTED OUT, NOT ONLY DO I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THE PLACE FOR THIS STUDENT TO GO DURING MY LESSON, HOWEVER LONG THAT LESSON TAKES, IT COULD -- I COULD BE COVERING THAT FOR THREE DAYS.

SO THE STUDENT HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

I HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE FOR THEM TO DO.

FINE, AGAIN, MORE WORK.

BUT THE BIGGER ISSUE IS THAT'S GOING TO BE ON THE SAT, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AP CLASS, DUAL CLASSES, IF STUDENTS ARE ALLOWED TO OPT OUT OF SOMETHING THEY'RE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH, TALKING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST, OR EVOLUTION, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE STANDARDIZED TESTS THAT THAT'S GOING TO AFFECT HOW THEY PERFORM ON THESE TESTS.

AND I THINK THAT'S A REALLY BIG ISSUE THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT VERY MUCH.

AND I THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM, ESPECIALLY WITH THE UNCOMFORTABLE TOPICS.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES YOU JUST -- YOU NEED A PROFESSIONAL TO EXPLAIN THOSE TOPICS, TALK ABOUT HISTORY, AND KNOW HOW TO TALK TO PARENTS ABOUT IT.

AND THAT'S THE WAY WE'VE DONE IT FOR YEARS.

TO TERRY'S POINT, WE'RE DOING WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

AND JUST LET US DO WHAT WE DO BEST.

>> AT THIS POINT MOST OF THE BILLS AND PROVISIONS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ARE MECHANISMS BY WHICH PARENTS AND STAKEHOLDERS CAN REACT TO PROPOSED LESSONS AND COURSE MATERIALS.

WE HAVE PROBABLY OVERLOOKED OR AT LEAST NOT ADDRESSED YET THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL PROVISION, WHICH IS A MORE PROACTIVE PROHIBITION ON THE TEACHING OF CERTAIN -- WELL, IF NOT SUBJECTS, WE COULD SPEND A SHOW OR TWO JUST DEBATING WHAT THE BILL ACTUALLY MEANS, BUT BASICALLY, IT INSTRUCTS TEACHERS TO STAY AWAY, OR NOT TO WEIGH IN ON ISSUES THAT ARE DIVISIVE OR WHERE A ONE CLASS OF EITHER GENDER OR RELIGIOUS GROUP OR RACE CAN BE FELT TO BE SUPERIOR OR INFERIOR, OR GUILTY FOR PAST MISDEEDS TO ANOTHER RACE.

THAT AGAIN IS PROBABLY THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL.

TERRY, IS THAT, IF YOU HAD YOUR GUN SIGHTS SET ON CERTAIN PROVISIONS, IS THAT NUMBER ONE ON THE LIST THIS SESSION?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT CERTAINLY HAS MADE THE BILL EVEN MORE CONTROVERSIAL.

IT IS JUST SUCH A BIG BILL THAT DOES REGULATE WHAT WE DO IN THE CLASSROOM ON A DAILY BASIS.

IF WE'RE GOING TO GET OUR STUDENTS TO BE COLLEGE AND CAREER READY WE NEED THEM TO BE CRITICAL THINKERS, BE ABLE TO DIGEST INFORMATION, MAKE SOME JUDGMENT OF THE INFORMATION THEY'VE RECEIVED, AND THEN HAVE CONVERSATION WITH THEIR PARENTS, HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH THE TEACHER, HAVE DIALOGUE WITH FELLOW STUDENTS ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER.

SO, AGAIN, IF WE'RE GOING TO NARROW THE SCOPE HERE, AND JUST ONLY TOUCH UPON WHAT 100% OF THE PEOPLE WILL AGREE WITH ALL THE TIME, WE'RE ALMOST -- IT'S AN IMPOSSIBILITY STANDARD.

WHAT WILL WE BE ABLE TO TEACH MOVING FORWARD?

WE CAN'T REALLY MEET THAT STANDARD 100% OF TIME WITH 100% AGREEMENT.

THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOMETHING, A PARENT OR A GROUP OF PEOPLE WILL OBJECT TO, AS TONYA MENTIONED, IF WE HAVE THAT OPT OUT PROVISION, WHAT'S LEFT?

I REMEMBER MY STEPDAUGHTER CALLING HER MOM AND SAYING, HEY, CAN I STAY HOME TODAY BECAUSE I REALLY DIDN'T PREPARE FOR MY TEST?

AND OF COURSE, MY WIFE SAID, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

BUT, IN THIS SITUATION, YOU KNOW, THE CHILD, THE PARENT CAN OPT OUT BECAUSE JOHNNY IS NOT READY, DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE SUBJECT MATTER, AND WHAT DOES THAT ACCOMPLISH.

>> WOULD HAVE MADE MY WHOLE GRADE SCHOOL CAREER, IF MY PARENTS HAD HAD THAT OPTION.

TONYA PFAFF, HOW MUCH OF THIS LEGISLATION IS BASED ON PARENTS KNOW BEST AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE THE FINAL SAY ON EVERYTHING FROM OPTING OUT OF VACCINE REQUIREMENTS, AND MASK REQUIREMENTS, OR ENTIRE LESSON PLANS, SO FORTH.

HOW DO YOU BALANCE THE NOTION OF PARENTAL INTRUSION, AND OBSTRUCTION WITH WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY DISCUSSED DURING THE SHOW HERE, WHICH IS A LONG STANDING DESIRE TO HAVE PARENTS INVOLVED IN THE EDUCATIONAL PROCESS?

>> IT'S GETTING TOUGHER AND TOUGHER TO BALANCE EVERYTHING THAT TEACHERS DO IN THE CLASSROOM.

WE'VE GOT A LOT OF DEMANDS ON US, JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER PROFESSIONS.

HOWEVER, WHEN PARENTS THINK THEY KNOW HOW TO TEACH BETTER THAN I DO OR WANT TO OPT THEIR KIDS OUT OF SOMETHING UNCOMFORTABLE.

I THINK WE NEED TO GO TO WHY.

I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS, JUST LIKE WE ALWAYS HAVE.

SO TO ME, THIS BILL, AND A LOT OF THESE CONTENTIOUS BILLS, THERE IS NO REASON.

THERE MIGHT BE A COUPLE BAD ACTORS, AND AGAIN, THERE IS A SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR TAKING CARE OF THOSE, BUT DON'T CHANGE THE ENTIRE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BECAUSE OF A FEW PEOPLE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE OUT OF TIME, THE SCHOOL BELL HAS RUNG, WE WILL HAVE TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION EITHER OFF CAMERA OR LATER IN THE SESSION.

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN TERRY SPRADLIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE INDIANA SCHOOL BOARDS ASSOCIATION AND STATE REPRESENTATIVE TONYA PFAFF, A TERRE HAUTE DEMOCRAT.

THANKS SO MUCH.

TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH ED FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE INSIGHT AND ITS SISTER PUBLICATION INDIANA EDUCATION INSIGHT, BOTH PART OF HANNAH NEWS SERVICE.

ED, BELIEVE IT OR NOT WE'RE ALMOST AT THE HALFWAY POINT, WHAT SURPRISED YOU?

>> I THINK CREDIT TO LEADERSHIP, THERE IS NO DISRUPTION FROM COVID, I THINK THAT THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT CERTAINLY COULD HAVE BEEN ANTICIPATED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SESSION, WE'RE FORTUNATE WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT AT LEAST TO DATE.

WHAT I REALLY DIDN'T EXPECT WAS SUCH A FOCUS ON EDUCATIONAL ISSUES FROM THE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVE PERSPECTIVE.

I THOUGHT THAT WE WOULD PROBABLY SEE A BROADER ARRAY OF EDUCATION ISSUES EVALUATED, BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE SO-CALLED WEDGE ISSUES WE HAVE SEEN.

A LOT OF CONCENTRATION ON FISCAL MATTERS TODAY AND WE'VE ALSO SEEN SOME ADMINISTRATIVE LAW AND EXECUTIVE AGENCY ISSUES COME UP IN THE CONTEXT OF EXECUTIVE VERSUS LEGISLATIVE POWERS, IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SESSION, THAT'S GOING TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO WATCH.

>> WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE WATCHING?

WHAT DO WE NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON OVER THE NEXT FIVE WEEKS?

>> I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE WATCHING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE CHALLENGES IN THE POLITICAL PRIMARIES IN MAY, FROM THE RIGHT.

A LOT OF SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES, PEOPLE WE THOUGHT WERE SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES ARE BEING CHALLENGED BY EVEN MORE CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATES.

AND THAT MAY AFFECT THE WAY THAT THEY VOTE IN THE SECOND HALF OF THIS SESSION.

>> VERY GOOD.

WELL, LOTS TO WATCH.

ED, AS ALWAYS, APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT.

SOME SAY IT'S A CRACKDOWN ON CRIME.

OTHERS SAY IT'S A THREAT TO CIVIL LIBERTIES.

A LOOK AT THE DEBATE OVER CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM... ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

UNTIL NEXT WEEK.

TAKE CARE.