[♪♪] GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO KENTUCKY TONIGHT.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

ABOUT FOUR-THOUSAND KENTUCKIANS WILL GO TO SLEEP TONIGHT WITHOUT A PERMANENT HOME.

HOMELESSNESS HAS BEEN A SUBJECT OF DEBATE FOR DECADES, BUT THAT DEBATE HAS INTENSIFIED IN RECENT WEEKS, AFTER THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY PASSED AN ANTI-CRIME BILL THAT BANS SO-CALLED “UNLAWFUL CAMPING” — WITH FINES AND EVEN JAIL TIME FOR PEOPLE VIOLATING THE LAW.

HOMELESS ADVOCATES HAVE DENOUNCED THAT BILL FOR MAKING HOMELESSNESS A CRIME.

IT INSPIRED PROTESTS IN SOME KENTUCKY CITIES.

LAST WEEK, THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HEARD ARGUMENTS IN THE CASE OF JOHNSON V. GRANT’S PASS, INVOLVING AN OREGON CITY ORDINANCE THAT WILL DETERMINE IF THE CONSTITUTION’S PROTECTIONS AGAINST CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT INCLUDE PEOPLE WHO SLEEP OUTSIDE.

WE’LL TALK ABOUT THAT CASE THIS EVENING AND THE IMPACT THE HIGH COURT’S RULING COULD HAVE ON THE NEW KENTUCKY LAW.

WE ARE JOINED, IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO, BY: RICHARD NELSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE COMMONWEALTH POLICY CENTER; GEORGE EKLUND, DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION AND ADVOCACY FOR THE COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS; PAUL SALAMANCA, UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY LAW PROFESSOR; AND KUNGU NJUGUNA, POLICY STRATEGIST FOR THE ACLU OF KENTUCKY.

WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU.

YOU CAN SEND YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS BY X — FORMERLY TWITTER -- AT K-Y TONIGHT K-E-T.

SEND AN EMAIL TO K-Y TONIGHT AT K-E-T DOT O-R-G. OR USE THE WEB FORM AT K-E-T DOT O-R-G SLASH K-Y TONIGHT.

OR YOU CAN CALL 1-800-494-7605.

WELCOME TO OUR GUESTS.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TONIGHT THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT TOPIC.

THIS IS GEORGE'S SECOND TIME AND KUNGU'S SECOND TIME BEING ON THIS PROGRAM TO TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE SUPREME COURT CASE AND OTHER FACTS ABOUT WHAT KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY DID, I WANT US TO TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF HOMELESSNESS IN KENTUCKY.

THE 4,000.

IS IT A GROWING PROBLEM?

I SAID IT WAS BUT DO WE HAVE STATS THAT PROVE IT IS A GROWING PROBLEM?

AND HOW DO WE DEFINE HOMELESSNESS SHELTERED VERSUS UNSHELTERED AND WHY DOES THAT MATTER FOR THE PURPOSES OF TONIGHT'S DISCUSSION?

>> FIRST, I WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW THAT HOMELESSNESS IS GROWING BUT THAT IS LARGELY A FUNCTION OF OUR HOUSING MARKET.

AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN OUR HOUSING MARKET WE SEE IT TIGHT WITH AVAILABLE RENTAL.

AND THE AVAILABLE HOMEOWNERSHIP OPPORTUNITIES AND THAT HAS A SPILLOVER EFFECT FOR THOSE EARNING THE LEAST.

THEY HAVE THE FEWEST AMOUNT OF OPTIONS TO GET INTO HOUSING.

PEOPLE ARE PLAYING MUSICAL CHAIRS IF I'M COMPETING AGAINST SOMEBODY WHO HAS MORE RESOURCES OR I MIGHT HAVE A DISABILITY OR I HAVE SOME OTHER ISSUE THAT PREVENTEDS ME FROM GETTING INTO HOUSING.

AND WHEN I LOSE I END UP BECOMING HOMELESS.

FOR US THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

AND IN ORDER FOR US TO REALLY ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF HOMELESSNESS IN KENTUCKY, WE REALLY NEED TO START DELVING INTO WHAT IS OUR SUPPLY LOOK LIKE?

HOW DO WE INCREASE AFFORDABLE RENTAL OPTIONS IN KENTUCKY FOR EVERYONE.

>> Renee: DO YOU BELIEVE THE ASSEMBLY ADDRESSED THAT PROBLEM?

>> AT HOUSE BILL 5, NO.

AT THE END OF THE DAY RENT IS TOO HIGH AND HOUSE BILL 5 DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO ADDRESS THE RENT AMOUNTS IN KENTUCKY.

>> Renee: IS THERE ANY CAUTIONATION BETWEEN COVID-19 AND THE UP PARTICULAR OF HOMELESS INDIVIDUALS IN KENTUCKY?

>> SINCE 2018 WE'VE SEEN 78% INCREASE IN KENTUCKY.

WE'VE SEEN A 58% RISE IN OUR AVERAGE RENTS ACROSS THE STATE.

>> Renee: THIS SIDE.

THERE WAS A SURVEY CONDUCTED BY THE INSTITUTE INVOLVED IN THE POLICY MAKING OF HOUSE BILL 5 AND THEY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN OTHER STATES IN HELPING THEM ALSO CRAFT SIMILAR LEGISLATION.

THEY CONDUCTED A SURVEY IN JANUARY THAT FOUND THAT 56% OF ALL VOTERS PERCEIVE HOMELESS ENCAMPMENTS AS A THREAT TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

68% SAYING THEY WOULD AVOID THE AREAS SOME OR ALL THE TIME.

87% BELIEVE MOVING HOMELESS INDIVIDUALS TO SHELTER IS MORE COMPASSIONATE.

76% DO NOT THINK INDIVIDUALS HAVE A RIGHT TO CAMP ON THE STREET WHEN SHELTER OPTIONS ARE AVAILABLE AND A MAJORITY 56% WANT TO PROHIBIT PUBLIC STREET CAMPING.

TO YOU Mr. NELSON TO SEE IF THE POLLING NUMBERS JUSTIFY FOR THE REASONS A HOUSE BILL 5 PARTICULARLY THOSE PROVISIONS DEALING WITH IT THE PUBLIC ENCAMPMENTS WERE THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

>> I THINK SO.

OF COURSE, HOUSE BILL 5 THE SAFER KENTUCKY ACT ADDRESSED CRIME IN A NUMBER OF LEVELS AND THEY UPDATED OUR CRIMINAL STATUTES.

SOME HAD NOT BEEN UPDATED IN 50 YEARS.

PART OF THE DISCUSSION IS HOMELESSNESS.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT YOU ELUDED TO THIS A MOMENT AGO, BUT WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT DEFINITIONS.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOMELESS AND THOSE UNSHELTERED.

THE NUMBER LAST YEAR, THE NUMBER I'M LOOKING AT WAS 4766 HOMELESS.

BUT OUT OF THAT NUMBER IT WAS 1470 UNSHELTERED.

AND THAT'S THE SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION THAT HOUSE BILL 5 ADDRESSES.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A LARGE GROUP OF UNSHELTERED PEOPLE CAMPING IN PUBLIC, THAT'S A PUBLIC POLICY ISSUE.

THERE ARE HEALTH ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.

THERE ARE CRIME ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT.

THE LIKELIHOOD OF CRIME PERPETRATED AGAINST THE HOMELESS OR THOSE UNSHELTERED OR PERPETRATING CRIME AGAINST OTHERS IT INCREASES WITHIN A RADIUS OF THAT AREA.

AND THAT IS WHAT THE STATE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TRIED TO DO.

>> Renee: DOES HOUSE BILL 5 IN THIS PROVISIONS DEALING WITH CAMPING DOES IT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HOMELESS AND UNSHELTERED?

>> I BELIEVE IT DOES.

THERE IS A PROVISION, BY THE WAY, AN EXCEPTION THAT ALLOWS FOR THOSE WHO LAWFULLY ARE STAYING IN THEIR CAR.

>> Renee: UP TO 12 HOURS.

>> UP TO 12 HOURS THERE IS AN EXCEPT SHOP FOR THAT.

I BELIEVE IT DOES DISTINGUISH THE TWO CATEGORIES.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S CORRECT IT SAID THAT A PERSPECTIVE WHO IS CAMPING WITH THE INTENT TO SLEEP IS VIOLATING THE ANTI-CAMPING STATUTES.

IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE TWO.

>> Renee: AND THAT IS THE CASE IN SECTION 17 PARAGRAPH TWO A PERSON IS GUILTY OF UNLAWFUL CAMPING AND WHEN THEY REMAIN ON A PUBLIC STREET, UNDER BRIDGE, PATH, PARK, CEMETERY OR DESIGNATED FOR USE BY PEDESTRIANS OR VEHICLES INCLUDING AREAS USED FOR INGRESS OR EGRESSES TO BUSINESSES, HOMES OR PUBLIC BUILDINGS.

PROFESSOR?

>> I AGREE WITH KUNGU THAT IT FOCUSES ON WHAT LAWYERS CALL AN ACT TUS REYES.

AN ACT.

THAT IS ILLEGAL IS AS YOU JUST SAID, RENEE, IS HAVING CAMPING PARAPHERNALIA OR HAVING SOME SORT OF CAMPING STRUCTURE A CAMP FACILITY.

BUT THERE'S ALSO IN ANOTHER LAWYERLY PHRASE, ACTUSRAYS, AND MEN'S RAIA, THE CRIMINAL MIND AND THERE IS AN INTENT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN INTENT TO SPEND THE NIGHT.

THERE ARE MOVING PARTS IN THIS THING.

INTENT TO SLEEP.

>> WITH THE INTENT TO SLEEP.

YOU WERE -- IT IS A NEAR WHERE YOU WERE QUOTING IN LINE 20 IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE UNOFFICIAL COPY OF 17 SUB2.

>> Renee: INTENT.

I MEAN THAT SEEMS HARD TO DETERMINE.

PERHAPS?

HOW DO YOU MEASURE INTENT?

>> IT'S SURROUNDING CIRCUMSTANCES IF SOMEONE HAS IF THEY ARE LAYING DOWN IN A BLANKET, THAT'S THEIR INTENT TO SLEEP.

BUT I THINK TO GEORGE'S POINT, I THINK HB5 DOES NOTHING TO SOLVE OUR HOMELESS PROBLEM IN THIS COMMUNITY.

WHAT WE NEED MORE HOUSING NOT HANDCUFFS.

AND HB5 LOOKS TO CRIMINALIZE BEHAVIOR TO SOME OF THE MOST MARGINALIZED PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY AND WHO ARE AT RISK.

AND HB5 DIDN'T INVEST IN AFFORDABLE HOUSING, IN TRANSPORTATION, IN EDUCATION, AND ALL THE THINGS THAT COULD HELP GET PEOPLE NOT BE HOMELESS.

HB5 DIDN'T DO ANY OF THAT.

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT.

>> AND THIS IS AN IMPORTANT THING THAT I WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW.

WE HAVE A SHORTAGE OF SHELTER AS WELL AS HOUSING N LOUISVILLE WE HAVE 1600 PEOPLE HOMELESS EACH NIGHT AND 750 SHELTER BEDS.

WE CAN FLEX UP DURING EXTREME WEATHER BUT THAT GETS US 150.

PEOPLE DON'T HAVE AN OPTION TO GO IN.

AT THE SAME TIME, ONLY 33 COUNTIES HAVE AN ACTIVE SHELTER IN THEIR AREA.

SO THERE ARE LARGE SWATHS OF OUR STATE THAT DON'T HAVE A PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO GO AT NIGHT.

>> Renee: LOUISVILLE ADDRESSED THE ENCAMPMENT ISSUE?

>> YES.

A COUPLE YEARS AGO WE PASSED A BILL THAT MADE IT ILLEGAL TO CAMP OUTSIDE.

AND IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE THAT HOUSE BILL 5 IS ATTEMPTING TO ADDRESS.

THAT BY DEFAULT PEOPLE DON'T HAVE AN OPTION TO GO IN, MOST DAYS OF THE WEEK.

WE HAVE MANAGED THE COORDINATED SHELTER ACCESS LINE AND ALL THE BED RESERVATIONS ARE FILLED BY 10:30.

LINE OPENS AT 10 AND IT'S FULL WITHIN 30 MINUTES.

>> RENEE, FORGIVE ME FOR INTERRUPTING.

I AGREE WITH MY FRIENDS THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM.

THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM AND IT'S SOMETHING WE ALL NEED TO ATTEND TO.

BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HB5 IS WRONG.

BECAUSE ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION WHICH ADDRESSES ONE ISSUE, ONE PART OF ONE ISSUE DOESN'T DO EVERYTHING THAT WE NEED TO HAVE DONE, DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE PIECE OF LEGISLATION IS WRONG.

HB5 IS TRYING TO PROTECT OTHER IMPORTANT INTERESTS.

RICHARD MENTIONED SOME OF THEM.

IT'S TRYING TO PROTECT THE INDIVIDUALS THEMSELVES WHO ARE VULNERABLE AND PROTECT PEOPLE NEAR THEM.

THAT IS NOT WRONG.

GEORGE'S POINT AND KUNGU'S POINT IS THAT WE'VE GOT MORE TO DO.

AND I DON'T DENY THAT.

WE DO.

IT'S COLD.

>> I ARGUE THAT HB5 ISN'T HELPING PEOPLE WHEN YOU ARE SUBJECTING THEM TO BEING FINED $250 AND UP TO 90 DAYS IN JAIL.

THAT IS NOT HELPING THEM.

JAIL IS NOT A SAFE PLACE FOR THESE INDIVIDUALS.

WE KNOW IN LOUISVILLE WE HAD A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE UP TO 12 PEOPLE DIED IN OUR JAIL.

FOUR OF THOSE PEOPLE IN THAT JAIL WERE CHRONICALLY UNHOUSED.

JAIL IS NOT A SAFE PLACE FOR THEM.

AND FINING PEOPLE $250 THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY.

YOU WILL CREATE A CYCLE OF ARRESTING PEOPLE WHO CAN'T PAY THE FINE, PROBABLY DON'T SHOW UP TO COURT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A ADDRESS OR A TELEPHONE GETTING BENCH WARRANTS AND GETTING THE CYCLE OF PEOPLE IN AND OUT OF OUR JAILS.

IN LOUISVILLE COSTS $88 A DAY.

LIKE WHAT ARE WE DOING?

HB5 SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT CREATING MORE SHELTERS AND SERVICES FOR THOSE MARGINALIZED FOLKS.

>> Renee: THIS IS A QUESTION WE'VE HAD POSED ON THIS PROGRAM AND OTHERS WHEN WE'VE TALKED ABOUT HOUSE BILL 5.

AND DEALING WITH VIOLENT CRIME AND REPEAT OFFENDERS.

THREE STRIKES ET CETERA.

WHY THESE PROVISIONS IN THIS PARTICULAR BILL?

I WANT TO ASK YOU PROFESSOR WHY IS THIS A MATTER OF PUBLIC SAFETY OR ANTICRIME ISSUE?

>> WELL, I THINK WHEN YOU PUT -- WHEN YOU HAVE AREAS WHERE THE POLICE CAN'T MONITOR PROPERLY BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON THAT ARE ILLEGAL IT BECOMES MORE LIKELY OTHER ILLEGAL THINGS WILL HAPPEN THERE.

IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF TENTS IN CLOSE PROXIMITY IF THE POLICE DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT CHANCES ARE THERE WILL BE MORE DEALING OF DRUGS AND MORE PROSTITUTION.

CHANCES ARE ORDINARY CONVENTIONAL BUSINESSES THAT ARE NEARBY WILL CLOSE BECAUSE PEOPLE WON'T WANT TO SHOP THERE.

YOU HAVE DETERIORATION OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

SO IT'S NOT PARTICULARLY SAFE AND I DON'T WANT TO SAY IT'S NOT RELATIVELY SAFE FOR THOSE PEOPLE, BUT IT'S NOT SAFE ON THE WHOLE.

I WANT TO MAKE ONE ADDITIONAL POINT ABOUT INCENTIVES.

I AGREE WITH KUNGU AND I AGREE WITH GEORGE THAT CYCLING PEOPLE IN AND OUT OF JAIL ISN'T GREAT.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE INCENTIVE FOR PEOPLE TO DO THE BEST THEY CAN TO FIND A SHELTER THEN THAT MISSING INCENTIVE MATTERS.

THE WOMAN IN JOHNSON VERSES GRANT'S PASS WOULD NOT GO TO THE SHELTER BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT TAKE HER DOG.

WE HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAD ACCESS TO A SHELTER.

MS. JOHNSON THEY WOULDN'T TAKE HER ROTWEILER.

IF WE HAVE A STATUTE THAT SAYS YOU CAN GET IN TROUBLE IF YOU SLEEP IN THE PARK EVERY NIGHT.

AT LEAST YOU WILL HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO GO TO THE SHELTER AND OUTSOURCE YOUR DOG.

>> RENEE, IT WAS MENTIONED HOW MUCH MONEY WAS SPENT AND I AGREE TO YOUR POINT ABOUT CYCLING PEOPLE THROUGHOUT REALLY WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT ADDRESSING CORE ISSUES.

AND LARGE NUMBER OF UNSHELTERED PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR SUFFER FROM MENTAL ILLNESS, A LARGE NUMBER SUFFER FROM ADDICTION ISSUES.

I TRIED TO FIND NUMBERS FOR KENTUCKY I DID FIND SOME NUMBERS FROM CALIFORNIA.

THERE WAS A REPORT LAST YEAR THAT CALIFORNIA STATE-WIDE STUDY OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS TOWARD A NEW UNDERSTANDING AND THEY FOUND 80% OF PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS REPORTED SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH CONDITIONS.

ONE OUT OF FOUR HAD BEEN HOSPITALIZED.

AND SAME REPORT A DIFFERENT REPORT, THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS FOUND THAT 68% OF U.S. CITIES REPORTED THAT ADDICTION IS THE SINGLE LARGEST CAUSE OF HOMELESSNESS.

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THESE ASPECTS AS WELL.

I DON'T THINK THAT UNTIL WE ADDRESS THOSE CORE ISSUES HELPING THEM.

AND THAT IS COMPASSIONATE.

HELPING THEM WITH BASIC NEEDS THEIR MENTAL HEALTH STATE.

IF NAY NEED ADDICTION RECOVERY, GOVERNOR BESHEAR MENTIONED THAT KENTUCKY HAS PER CAPITA THE LARGEST NUMBER OF ADDICTION RECOVERY BEDS IN THE COUNTRY.

>> I WILL RESPOND TO THAT AND THROW IT TO GEORGE HE HAS KENTUCKY NUMBERS AND THAT THE IS GREAT WE HAVE THE MOST RECOVERY BEDS.

AS A PERSON IN LONG-TERM RECOVERY I CAN APPRECIATE THAT.

AS I SAID THE FIRST TIME WE WERE ON HERE, THERE ARE BARRIERS TO ACCESSING THOSE BEDS.

FOR ONE, IT'S NOT A SOLUTION BECAUSE MOST RECOVERY CENTERS ARE 28-DAYS OR 30-DAYS.

SOME REQUIRE YOU TO HAVE INSURANCE.

SOME ARE SECTARIAN BASED RELIGIOUS BASED.

THERE ARE BARRIERS GETTING TO THE BEDS.

I WILL LET GEORGE TALK ABOUT THE NUMBERS.

>> BASED ON THE STATE-WIDE COUNT ADMINISTERED BY THE KENTUCKY HOUSING CORPORATION, 37% OF FOLKS HAVE A SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS OR SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER HERE IN KENTUCKY.

FOR US KUNGU SAID IT WELL, IS PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING THROUGH THESE MOMENTS IN THEIR LIFE LIKE THEY HAD AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING CRISIS BEFORE THEY WENT INTO RECOVERY AND THEY WILL HAVE ONE WHEN THEY EXIT.

SURE WE INVESTED IN RECOVERY OPTIONS IN KENTUCKY AND THAT WAS A HUGE GOD SEND FROM THE STATE GOVERNMENT BUT THAT GOT US 3500 BEDS.

OUR NIGHTLY COUNT IS 4,000.

IT IS STILL NOT A PANACEA FOR ALL OF OUR ISSUES IT IS AN OPTION THAT CAN BE EMPLOYED BUT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT WHERE ARE PEOPLE COMMITTING TO ON DAY 29.

>> Renee: WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT CHRONIC INDIVIDUALS PEOPLE IN A CHRONIC CONDITION?

>> WHEN YOU ARE CHRONIC YOU HAVE BEEN HOMELESS FOR YEARS AND MONTHS OFF AND ON OVER THE COURSE OF TWO TO FIVE YEARS.

IT IS A HIGHER PRESENCE OF PEOPLE WITH SMI OR SUD BECAUSE THAT IS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT MAINTAIN EMPLOYMENT TO PAY YOUR RENT.

FOR US, THE BEST INTERVENTION FOR THAT POPULATION IS WHAT IS CALLED PERMANENT SUPPORTIVE HOUSING WHERE WE GET SOMEBODY INTO A HOUSE AND SHELTERED AND WE SEARCH RESOURCES AND CASE MANAGEMENT TO FIGURE OUT THE NEXT STEP.

I'VE HAD FRIENDS OF MINE THAT HAVE BEEN HOMELESS.

THEY HAD SUFFERED FROM SUD, AND THEY ONLY GET SOBER BECAUSE THEY HAD THE STABLE HOUSING PIECE.

AND ONE PERSON LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE HOUSED FOR DECADES AT THIS POINT.

AND BECOMING A MUCH MORE FRUITFUL MEMBER OF OUR SOCIETY.

>> Renee: WELL, WE MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW HOW LAST WEEK THERE WERE SEVERAL KENTUCKY CITIES I BELIEVE FOUR WERE PROTESTING THOSE PROVISIONS IN HOUSE BILL 5.

AND SO WE WANT TO GO TO A PIECE OF VIDEO THAT WE PRODUCED FOR KENTUCKY EDITION THAT AIRED LAST MONDAY ABOUT A RALLY HELD IN LOUISVILLE.

THIS WAS PRODUCED BY KENTUCKY EDITION'S JIM LOEFFLER.

>> THE COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS ESTIMATES ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT IN LOUISVILLE ABOUT 600 PEOPLE SLEEP ON THE STREETS.

ANGIE JOHNSON HAS BEEN THERE.

>> I'D RATHER DIE THAN TO LIVE BACK ON THESE STREETS.

BECAUSE I KNOW HOW PEOPLE DISRESPECT YOU ON THE STREETS.

THEY SPIT ON YOU.

THEY WALK OVER YOU.

THEY JUST TREAT YOU LIKE YOU ARE A PIECE OF DIRT.

>> KENTUCKY ELECTED OFFICIALS SAID AT A RALLY MONDAY, THE ONLY SOLUTION TO HOMELESSNESS IS AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

>> IT'S NOT A DIFFICULT SOLUTION.

AND IT'S NOT NEW.

BUT WHAT IT NEEDS TO BE SUCCESSFUL IS FUNDING.

AND WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THE POLITICAL WILL TO INVEST IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND IN OUR PEOPLE.

>> HOUSING ADVOCATES GATHERED IN RESPONSE TO A CASE BEFORE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

JOHNSON V GRANT'S PASS.

THE TOWN IN OREGON IS DEFENDING ITS STREET CAMPING BAN WHO LOWER COURTS RULE SECOND CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT UNDER THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.

HOW THE COURT DECIDES WILL LIKELY IMPACT LAWS IN KENTUCKY LIKE HOUSE BILL 5.

>> THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY SET STATE-WIDE PENALTIES FOR PEOPLE SETTING UP TENTS OR SLEEPING IN PUBLIC SPACES INCLUDING FINES AND A CLASS B MISDEMEANOR.

>> ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WHY OUR GOVERNOR VETOED HOUSE BILL 5 WAS BECAUSE THERE IS A PRINCIPLE THAT HE AND I BELIEVE IN.

YOU ARE NOT A CRIMINAL BECAUSE OF YOUR LIVING SITUATION.

IF ANYTHING, WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO EXTEND OUR HANDS AND INVEST RESOURCES TO PROMOTE AND PURSUE REALIZE HEALING NOT TO DISCARD YOU AND THROW YOU AWAY.

>> ACCORDING TO A LOCAL ORDINANCE IN LOUISVILLE POLICE OFFICERS CAN ISSUE $200 FINES TO PEOPLE SLEEPING IN CARS OR CAMPING IN PARKS.

>> IF YOU ARE ON THE STREET THE LIKELIHOOD OF YOU BEING ABLE TO AFFORD A FINE OR A TICKET IS LESS THAN LIKELY.

IF YOU COMPOUND TOO MANY TICKETS THEN THAT MEANS YOU HAVE NO CHOICE AND THE POLICE ARE FORCED TO TAKE YOU TO JAIL BECAUSE YOU HAVE WARRANTS OR UNABLE TO MAKE YOUR COURT DATE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLACE TO RECEIVE THE MESSAGES.

>> PROPONENTS SAY HOMELESSNESS IS A BLIGHT THAT CITIES HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

AND LEAVING PEOPLE TO LIVE OUTDOORS IS NOT SOME HUMANE SOLUTION.

DURING TESTIMONY FOR HOUSE BILL 5, REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS SAID THESE LAWS COULD LEAD PEOPLE TO ADDICTION TREATMENT.

>> FORMERLY ADDICTED HOMELESS PEOPLE SAY WE NEED SOMEBODY TO FORCE US INTO REHAB BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE THROES OF ADDICTION.

>> OPPONENTS SAY SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NEED TREATMENT BUT THE FIRST THING EVERYONE NEEDS IS HOUSING.

AND HAVING TO PAY FINES AND GOING TO JAIL DOESN'T HELP THEM WHEN LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO STAY.

>> Renee: AND THAT WAS KENTUCKY EDITION'S JIM LOEFFLER.

THIS FROM BRIAN IT, SUNDERLAND, THIS IS THE ORGANIZATION WE MENTIONED IN THE SHOW THAT HELPED CRAFT THE LEGISLATION IN KENTUCKY AND ALSO OTHER STATES.

HE PROVIDED THIS STATEMENT EARLIER THIS EVENING.

THE INSTITUTE HAS BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF STATES TAKING BACK CONTROL OF THE POLICY RESPONSE TO HOMELESSNESS AFTER DECADES OF MISMANAGEMENT.

THE CONVENTIONAL HOUSING FIRST APPROACH LEAVES HOMELESS INDIVIDUALS TO SLEEP ON THE STREETS WHILE RESOURCES ARE DIVERTED FROM SHELTERS AND TO HOUSING PROGRAMS THAT HAVE LITTLE TO KNOW ACCOUNTABILITY AND LACK SOBRIETY AND TREATMENT REQUIREMENTS.

AT THE CORE OF GRANT'S PASS OREGON IS THE QUESTION OF JUST HOW MUCH DISCRETION A LOCAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE OVER ITS COMMUNITY RESPONSE.

TO HOMELESSNESS.

A GROWING NUMBER OF STATES ARE WORKING TO IMPROVE SAFETY FOR THEIR COMMUNITIES BY IMPLEMENTING DESIGNATED GOVERNMENT APPROVED CAMPING AREAS FOR HOMELESS INDIVIDUALS.

THESE AREAS INCLUDE PROVISIONS FOR SUBSTANCE ABUSE AND MENTAL HEALTH INTERVENTIONS AND SERVICES AS AN ONRAMP TO TREATMENT.

THIS BREAKS DOWN WHEN THE FEDERAL JUDGE OVERRIDES COMMUNITYS' DECISIONS IN RESPONSE TO THE CASE THAT WE'LL TALK MORE ABOUT.

I WANT TO GET A RESPONSE FROM YOU, GEORGE AND KUNGU ABOUT WHEN WE HEARD THE REPRESENTATIVES SAY THAT THIS IS INTENDING TO FORCE PEOPLE INTO REHAB BECAUSE OTHERWISE THEY PERHAPS WOULD NOT GO.

I WANT YOU TO RESPOND TO THAT.

>> ONE, FORCING PEOPLE INTO REHAB.

PEOPLE GOT TO BE READY AND WILLING.

I DON'T KNOW HOW SUCCESSFUL THAT IS.

YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING HIT YOUR ROCK BOTTOM TO DO THAT.

AND ALSO IT MISSES THE POINT.

AS GEORGE SAID ONLY A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS OR UNSHELTERED SUFFER FROM A MENTAL ILLNESS OR SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER WHICH LEAVES THE MAJORITY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS NOT IN THAT.

THE THREE MAIN PLAINTIFFS IN GRANT'S PASS JOHN LOGAN HAD A JOB.

HE WAS A LICENSED IN-HOME CARE PROVIDER AND DIDN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY SO HE HAD TO LIVE IN HIS VAN AND CLIENTS LET HAD HIM STAY THERE.

AND THE OTHER PLAINTIFFS WERE PEOPLE ONE WAS RETIRED ON SOCIAL SECURITY, DIDN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY BECAUSE RENT IS TOO HIGH.

IT MISSES THE POINT AND TRIES TO COME UP WITH ONE SOLUTION FOR ALL THE FOLKS WHO ARE UNSHELTERED AND THEY ARE NOT A MONOLITHIC GROUP.

>> Renee: PROFESSOR?

>> I FEEL LIKE I WANT TO REITERATE A POINT I MADE EARLIER AND I THOUGHT I HEARD REPRESENTATIVE HODGESON SAY IT FOR ME, WHICH IS THAT IT DOES PROVIDE AN INCENTIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE STREET TO BE A LITTLE BIT LESS INTOLERANT OF THE OPTIONS THAT ARE OUT THERE.

IT DOES PUT A LITTLE BIT OF A THUMB ON THE SCALE.

IT SAYS TO THE PEOPLE IF THERE ARE OPTIONS YOU SHOULD EXPLORE THEM AND IT IS NOT AN ANSWER THAT YOU DON'T LIKE AN OPTION THAT IS OUT THERE.

>> Renee: ONLY APPLIES TO A THIRD OF THE POPULATION?

>> I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THAT.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO GO INTO A SUBSTANCE ABUSE PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS NOT ANOTHER SHELTER AVAILABLE TO THEM.

AND WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS SAY TO PEOPLE ONE OPTION YOU DON'T HAVE IS NOT EXPLORING ANYTHING.

YOU CANNOT SAY TO THE POLICE I DON'T LIKE THIS AND I DON'T LIKE THIS AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO BE HERE.

IN FACT, DEPENDING WHERE RIGHT HERE IS YOU DON'T.

SO YOU'VE GOT TO TRY TO FIND SOMETHING ELSE.

KUNGU MENTIONED COUCH SURFING IT IS NOT AN IDEAL SOLUTION BUT IT PUTS THAT PERSON OUT OF HARM'S WAY AND OFF THE STREET.

>> Renee: AND YOU HAVE TO FIND SOMEONE WHO IS WILLING.

>> THERE WAS A TIME WHEN PEOPLE SPENT MORE TIME WITH THEIR IN-LAWS THAN THEY DO NOW.

>> PAUL BRINGS UP THERE IS A LACK OF SHELTER ACROSS THE STATE RIGHT NOW.

IN LOUISVILLE WE NEED ANOTHER 800 BEDS TO MEET THE NEED WE HAVE EACH NIGHT.

AND IT IS NOT LIKE A FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS SLEEPING OUT, IT IS NOT LIKE I'M OUT EVERYDAY.

THERE MIGHT BE A TIME THEY HAVE MONEY TO GO INTO AN EXTENDED STAY MOTEL.

THEY MAY HAVE FAMILY THAT THEY CAN STAY WITH.

THE FACT IS THAT FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS HOMELESS IT IS A CONSTANT STRUGGLE TO FIND WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO LAND THE NEXT DAY.

UNTIL THE CITY AND THE STATE INVEST THE DOLLARS TO SPAN OUR SHELTER SYSTEM, THE FEDERAL MONEY GEARED TOWARDS HOUSING IS THE ONLY INTERVENTION THAT IS GETTING RESULTS.

>> I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DOWN-PLAY WHAT HE SAID.

ONE OF THE STATS HE SAID ONLY 33 COUNTIES HAVE A SHELTER OUT OF 120.

SO SOME PEOPLE HAVE SOMEWHERE TO GO IN JEFFERSON AND FAYETTE WHO ARE THE COUNTIES DOING THAT DON'T?

HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHAT OPTIONS THEY HAVE.

THERE AREN'T SHELTERS.

>> ONE THING I'M SORRY, RICHARD.

I THINK ONE THING WE'RE GLOSSING OVER HERE THOUGH, IS CAN LOCAL GOVERNMENTS OR THE STATE GOVERNMENT HAVE RULES FOR WHAT WE ALLOW IN PUBLIC PLACES?

IF I WERE TO GO TO A PARK I'VE HOME THANKS GOD, BUT IF I WERE TO GO TO A PARK AND CAMP OUT MAYBE THERE WAS A RIVER I WOULD GET FINED.

THIS DOESN'T BAN PUBLIC CAMPING OTHER THAN IN PUBLIC PARKS I SHOULD SAY THERE IS A PROVISION WHERE THE CITIES OR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS COULD CREATE AN AREA WHERE THEY CAMP.

AND THEY HAVE TO PROVIDE FOR SANITATION AND THERE WILL BE SECURITY.

IT IS A SAFER AND MORE DIGNIFYING OPTION.

AND I BELIEVE THAT IS OFFERED IN LOUISVILLE.

SO I THINK THAT ADDRESSES SOMETHING.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK WE'RE FORGETTING IS THE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND STATE GOVERNMENTS SHOULD PROVIDE RULES THAT WE ABIDE.

YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SLEEP ON A SIDEWALK.

IT'S NOT DIGNIFYING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE EXPOSED TO THE ELEMENTS OR VULNERABLE TO ASSAULT WHICH HOMELESS PEOPLE ARE.

>> I HATE THAT WE ARE IN A STATE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE ONLY THE OPTION TO SLEEP OUTSIDE.

EVERYONE IN HOMELESS SERVICES WE HAVE A VISION WE WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO SAFE AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

THAT IS THE BENCHMARK OF ALL OF THE WORK WE ARE DOING.

IF YOU ARE HARASSING SOMEBODY, IF YOU ARE PUBLICLY INTOXICATED, LOITERING THERE ARE RULES ON THE BOOKS.

WE DON'T NEED TO TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER.

BECAUSE WE KNOW ANOTHER FINE, ANOTHER CHARGE ISN'T GOING TO MOVE PEOPLE ANY FASTER TO HOUSING THAN SERVICES AND HOUSING NAVIGATION AND HOUSING VOUCHER WILL.

>> BUT, GEORGE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE SURVEY THAT RENEE SHARED EARLIER, LARGE NUMBER OF KENTUCKIANS ARE AFRAID TO GO NEAR THE HOMELESS ENCAMPMENTS THEY ARE NOT GOING TO THOSE AREAS AND THE PUBLIC HAS A RIGHT TO USE THE PARK OR WALK DOWN THE STREET OR THE SHOP OWNER HAS A RIGHT TO GO TO HIS SHOP IN THE MORNING AND NOT HAVE SOMEBODY EN CAMPED THERE.

AND AGAIN, LET'S GET BACK TO THE CITY OF LOUISVILLE THEY STARTED THIS.

THEY ENACTED A CITYWIDE ORDINANCE TO NOT ALLOW PUBLIC CAMPING.

>> Renee: THAT BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT ABOUT HOME RULE AND SOMEONE WHO IS A PROPONENT OF SMALL GOVERNMENT AND ONLY NECESSARY GOVERNMENT WHY SHOULDN'T LOCALITIES BE ABLE TO CHOOSE THE SOLUTIONS THAT BEST FIT THEIR COMMUNITIES.

MAYBE THAT IS A DIFFERENT RESPONSE THAN LEXINGTON FAYETTE COUNTY WOULD HAVE?

>> THAT IS A FAIR POINT.

I THINK IT'S BECAUSE IT IS A STATE-WIDE PROBLEM AND ENSURES THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ACTUALLY STEP UP AND DO WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT LEXINGTON IS DOING.

BUT THIS IS A STATE ISSUE.

IT'S WIDESPREAD.

AND I MEAN HOME RULE, HOPEFULLY VOTERS WILL ELECT CITY COUNCIL MEN TO HAVE LAWS PUT ON THE BOOKS PUBLIC POLICIES THAT ARE PRACTICAL AND MAKE SENSE.

BUT I THINK AT SOME POINT THE LEGISLATURE STEPS IN AND SAYS HEY THIS IS A KENTUCKY ISSUE AND THAT IS WHAT THEY DID WITH HOUSE BILL 5.

>> Renee: AND THEY HAVE PENALTIES FOR LOCAL OFFICIALS AND GOVERNMENTS THAT DO NOT COMPLY THAT THE KENTUCKY ATTORNEY GENERAL CAN INTERVENE AND FILE A CIVIL ACTION AND GET REIMBURSED FOR COURT COSTS SEEMS REASONABLE TO YOU, Mr. EXLUND?

>> I MEAN, NO, I DON'T.

BUT FOR US WHAT WE NEED IN LOUISVILLE IS WE NEED TO INCREASE OUR SERVICES AND WE NEED TO INCREASE OUR SHELTER OPTIONS.

AND SURE, LIKE THE SANCTIONED ENCAMPMENTS SOUND LIKE A GOOD IDEA BUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE STATED IT LIMITS US TO DOING THIS ONLY IN COMMERCIAL OR INDUSTRIAL ZONED AREAS.

AND THAT IS ONLY 16% OF OUR COUNTY.

IT DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT PROXIMITY TO SERVICES, PROXIMITY TO A BUS LINE.

AND WE NEED MORE IN TERMS OF WHAT DOES EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS LOOK LIKE?

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WHEN A SEVERE THUNDERSTORM IS COMING THROUGH?

OR WHEN WE HAVE A COLD-SNAP IN THE MIDDLE OF DECEMBER OVER NEW YEAR'S EVE?

FOR FUSS WE'RE GOING -- FOR US, IF WE ARE CREATING ENCAMPMENT WE MIGHT PUT THAT INDOORS WHERE PEOPLE ARE MORE DIGNIFIED TO BE OUT OF THE ELEMENTS AND STABLE ENOUGH TO GET THEM INTO A HOUSING PROGRAM.

>> Renee: WHEN WEE LOOK AT TENNESSEE AND MISSOURI, THE SUPREME COURT DID STRIKE THEIR LAW DOWN.

TENNESSEE HAS DONE THIS.

DO WE KNOW IT'S YIELDING THE RESULTS ANTICIPATED FOR KENTUCKY'S HOUSE BILL 5?

>> I AM NOT AWARE OF IT.

A LOT OF MONEY HAS BEEN APPROPRIATEIATED TO HELP THE HOMELESS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL IT WAS $3.1 BILLION FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

KENTUCKY GOT $34 MILLION TO ASSIST WITH HOMELESS.

THERE'S 20 SOME MILLION DOLLARS.

MONEY IS COMING IN.

I HAVE READ AND GEORGE I'M NOT SURE IF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS BUT THERE'S BEEN AN ARGUMENT MADE THAT THE MONEY IS MISALIGNED.

THE FEDERAL MONEY IS SETUP TO GO TOWARDS PERMANENT HOUSING INSTEAD OF THE TEMPORARY SHELTERS WHICH IS WHAT IS NEEDED.

IT'S MORE DIFFICULT TO GET PERMANENT HOUSING AND EASIER TO GET TEMPORARY SHELTER.

SO I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED IS THE MONEY BEING USED CORRECTLY?

>> I THINK IT IS.

LARGELY THAT 34 MILLION IS GOING TOWARDS THE THREE COC'S.

>> CONTINUUM OF CARE.

>> FUNDING ENTITIES THERE'S LEXINGTON, JEFFERSON DOWN AND THE BALANCE OF STATE.

THOSE ARE HUD PROGRAMS THAT ARE GEARED TOWARDS HOUSING FIRST INTERVENTIONS.

WHAT WE DON'T HAVE IS ANY LOCAL DOLLARS FLOWING INTO THIS.

THERE'S LITTLE MONEY IN LOUISVILLE GOES TOWARDS SHELTER.

THERE IS NO MONEY IN THE STATE GOING TOWARDS IMMEDIATE INTERVENTIONS.

AND SHELTER IS AN INTERVENTION THAT IS ABOUT KEEPING SOMEBODY ALIVE IN THAT MOMENT.

FOR US IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ADDRESSING THE ISSUE WE NEED TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF HOUSING VOUCHERS AND THE UNITS THAT PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO.

BECAUSE IF SOMEBODY GETS A HOUSING VOUCHER A PERMANENT HOUSING THESE ARE DIFFERENT TOOLS THAT WE HAVE IN OUR KIT, THEY ONLY HAVE A SET AMOUNT OF DAYS TO GET THEM IN.

WE CAN'T FIND A SPOT THAT WILL TAKE THEM BECAUSE OF THEIR BACKGROUND AND THE VOUCHER, THEY STAND TO LOSE THAT VOUCHER AND IT GOES TO THE NEXT PERSON.

>> GEORGE, I WONDER, ABSTRACT FROM THIS, IS A LOT OF YOUR ARGUMENT ARGUABLY ECONOMICALLY UPSIDE-DOWN?

PERHAPS THE REASON THAT SO MANY COUNTIES IN KENTUCKY DON'T HAVE ANY ACTIVE SHELTER PROGRAM IS BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED THEM.

AND IT MIGHT BE AT THE PROBLEM OF HOMELESSNESS OR UNSHELTEREDNESS USE A DIFFERENT WORD IN LOUISVILLE AND LEXINGTON IS A FUNCTION THEY ARE ATTRACTIVE PLACES TO BE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE COME TO LEXINGTON AND LOUISVILLE WHO DON'T HAVE A JOB WHO DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY OR HAVE A JOB AND DON'T MAKE MUCH MONEY.

AND ARE WE REALLY SOLVING THE PROBLEM BY SPENDING THE MONEY TO ENABLE THEM TO LIVE IN LOUISVILLE?

LIKE SAYING YOU CAN LIVE IN DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN.

>> 82% OF PEOPLE IN LOUISVILLE THEIR LAST HOME ADDRESS WAS KENTUCKY.

WE ARE NOT SEEING A PIPELINE OF PEOPLE COMING FROM UNHAPPY OR CINCINNATI.

>> ARE THEY COMING FROM RURAL KENTUCKY.

>> IT'S A MUCH MORE DYNAMIC SITUATION.

I HAVE A COUSIN WHO LIVES IN LOUISVILLE I WILL GO HOPING I CAN COUCH SURF AND FIND A JOB BUT THINGS FALL APART AND I STAY IN THE EXTENDED STAY.

I THINK THERE IS A FLUIDITY AROUND IT ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE AN ECONOMIC CENTER LIKE LOUISVILLE, LEXINGTON, BOWLING GREEN.

THE OTHER FACTOR WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WE HAVE SEEN SO MUCH ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COMING IN TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE STATE.

WHERE WE ARE GOING TO SEE A SPILLOVER EFFECT LIKE, IT'S NOT GOING TO AFFECT THOSE WORKERS OR YOUR SCHOOL WORKERS WHAT IT WILL DO IS START DRIVING THE GROCERY STORE WORKERS, YOUR GAS STATION EMPLOYEES INTO THE NEXT COUNTY AND IT WILL TIGHTEN UP THEIR HOUSING MARKET.

HOMELESSNESS IS AN ECONOMIC ISSUE WHERE WE ARE SETTING PEOPLE UP TO FAIL AT THE LOWER END OF THE INCOME SPECTRUM VERSUS OTHER PARTS OF THE HOUSING MARKET.

>> AREN'T YOU EXACERBATING THE MISPLACED INCENTIVES IF YOU MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE CAN LIVE PLACES WHERE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO LIVE?

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T HAVE GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT AND GIVEN UP ON GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF SPENDING THE MONEY TO ALLOW THEM TO LIVE SOME PLACE WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT.

THERE MIGHT BE GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT SOMEWHERE ELSE?

>> FOR US, LIKE, WE JUST HAVE TO LOOK AND SEE WHAT IS IN FRONT OF US.

WE SEE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE HOMELESS.

AND IF WE BELIEVE THAT HOUSE SOMETHING ESSENTIAL LIKE OUR FIRST STEP TO ANY INTERVENTION IS TO GET THEM INTO HOUSING.

AND THAT IS WHY LIKE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION STARTED SHIFTING TOWARDS THE HOUSING FIRST METHODOLOGY WHERE IT GOT RID OF THIS ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL APPROACH WITH HIGH BARRIERS TO REQUIRE THINGS LIKE SOBRIETY OR HAVING A JOB BEFORE YOU ACCESS SERVICES.

BECAUSE IT WAS A WASTE OF TIME ON THE SERVICE PROVIDER AS WELL AS THE PERSON EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

>> SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE HIGHLIGHTED GEORGE TOUCHED ON IT IS HB50 ADDRESS THIS ISSUE, HB5 LOOKS TO CRIMINALIZE PEOPLE WHO ARE UNSHELTERED AND DO THE ECONOMIC THINGS THAT WOULD HELP PEOPLE GET HOUSING.

A HOUSING VOUCHER.

DURING THE SESSION THEY PASSED HB5 THEY PASSED PB18 WHICH OVERRODE LOCAL GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO PREVENT LANDLORDS FROM DISCRIMINATING AGAINST SOURCE OF INCOME.

THAT IS NOT HELPFUL.

OTHER PEOPLE CAN'T GET EMPLOYMENT IF YOU HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD.

THERE WAS A BILL THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED AUTOMATE THE EXPUNGEMENT PROCESS.

THAT DIDN'T GET A HEARING.

THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED SOLVE THIS.

>> Renee: WHAT ABOUT THE BIPARTISAN BILL THAT BY TWO LOUISVILLE REPRESENTATIVES ONE DEMOCRAT ONE REPUBLICAN THAT WOULD HAVE PROVIDED FOR NO COST BIRTH CERTIFICATES DID THAT MAKE IT ACROSS THE FINISH LINE FOR FOLKS UNSHELTERED?

>> IT DID.

>> Renee: THERE IS ONE VICTORY AND WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THAT OR WILL THAT MAKE?

>> THAT IS LIKE AN INCREDIBLY HELPFUL TOOL FOR US TO START THE JOURNEY OF GETTING SOMEBODY IN HOUSING.

GETTING THEM A JOB WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY WILL ESTABLISH THEIR IDENTITY AND THAT IS THROUGH A BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND ID SERVICES.

THAT PASSED IN HOUSE BILL 8 WAS ACCESS TO FREE ID SERVICES FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

THAT IS LIKE ONE OF THE BENCHMARKS OF THE WORK WE'RE DOING IN FRANKFORT IS HOW DO WE REMOVE THE BARRIERS THAT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM GETTING INTO HOUSING.

THAT INCLUDES CRIMINAL BACKGROUNDS.

THAT INCLUDES ACCESS TO HOUSING VOUCHERS.

IT INCLUDES ANY KIND OF WAY THAT WE CAN STREAMLINE THE PROCESS LIKE ID'S AND BIRTH CERTIFICATES TO GET PEOPLE ON THAT PATH INTO BACK INTO HOUSING.

>> Renee: BACK TO SOMETHING THAT Mr. NELSON SAID WHEN WE STARTED OUR PROGRAM.

AND I WILL ASK THE QUESTION BECAUSE HE RECITED STATISTICS ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE UNSHELTERED NOT JUST BEING THE VICTIMS BUT PERPETRATORS OF CRIME.

IS THERE STATISTICS THAT SUPPORT THAT THOSE WHO ARE UNSHELTERED ARE HOMELESS ARE MORE VICTIMS LIKELY TO BE VICTIMS OF CRIME OR PERPETRATORS OF CRIME?

ARE THESE CAMPS HOTBEDS OF CRIME?

>> IT CUTS BOTH WAYS.

ANYBODY WHO IS SLEEPING OUT, WHO IS UNSHELTERED IS EXPOSED TO NUMEROUS TRAUMAS AND NUMEROUS ISSUES.

AND IT IS BOTH THE PERSON WHO MAYBE PERPETRATOR IS ALSO A VICTIM IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

WHEN WE SEE AN UPTICK IN CRIME BETWEEN CAMPS IS WHEN WE SEE CAMPS BEING BROKEN UP.

CAMPS ARE COMMUNITIES.

LIKE PEOPLE ARE INCREDIBLY RESOURCEFUL AND THEY ARE FIGURING OUT WHAT IS GOING TO MEET THEIR NEEDS IN THE MOMENT.

WHEN WE BREAK UP A CAMP WE ARE BREAKING UP A COMMUNITY AND SOMEBODY VENTURES INTO A NEW CAMP WHEN YOU START SEEING AN UPTICK IN INNER CRIME BETWEEN FOLKS THAT ARE HOMELESS.

>> GEORGE, THE CITY OF LOUISVILLE SPENT $842,000 TO CLEAN UP OR REMOVE THE CAMPS.

THE CITY LEADERS SAID IT WAS A HEALTH ISSUE.

PEOPLE WERE USING JUST GOING TO THE BATHROOM ANYWHERE.

THEY WERE CLEANING UP NEEDLES.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT COMMUNITY, I MEAN I HAVE NOT BEEN TO ONE.

AGAIN I'M GRATEFUL I'M NOT HOMELESS AND WE SHOULD HAVE COMPASSION TOWARDS THE HOMELESS BUT IS IT NOT BACK TO THE IDEA OF HAVING A DESIGNATED AREA IN THE CITY WHERE SANITATION WOULD BE PROVIDED.

THERE WOULD BE SHOWERS.

THERE WOULD BE PORT-A-POTTIES AND POLICING TO PROTECT THE HOMELESS, THE VULNERABLE UNSHELTERED.

IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AT A NUMBER OF LEVELS TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO CAMP OUT MYSELF, YOU, ANY OF US TO CAMP OUT WHEREVER.

I DON'T THINK IT'S COMPASSIONATE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S GOOD PUBLIC POLICY AND THERE IS A MONETARY ELEMENT AS WELL.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS A RIGHT TO CAMP ANYWHERE YOU WANT IN A PUBLIC PARK OR IN A PRIVATE ENTRY WAY TO A BUSINESS.

AND I THINK THAT'S WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T SEE HOW IT'S HARMFUL TO THE UNSHELTERED TO HAVE A DESIGNATED AREA.

>> CRIMINALIZING PEOPLE FOR SLEEPING OUT IS NOT ADDRESSING THE ROOT CAUSES IT ISN'T GOING TO LEAD TO THE RESULTS WE HAVE.

>> I TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT CRIMINALIZING THE HOMELESS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ACTIVITY.

I CANNOT GO TO A PARK AND SLEEP OVERNIGHT AND THERE IS A REASON.

THERE'S OTHER RULES YOU CANNOT SKATEBOARD ON SIDEWALKS.

CAN'T RIDE A BIKE ON THE SIDEWALK BECAUSE OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND THE THINK THE SAME WITH THOSE CAMPING OUT IN PUBLIC AREAS AS WELL.

THERE ARE SAFETY CONCERNS.

THERE ARE HEALTH CONCERNS.

THERE'S A FEAR CONCERN FROM THE PUBLIC.

THE PUBLIC TAX-PAYING PUBLIC IS USING THESE AREAS AND THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO GO TO THE AREAS AND FEEL SAFE.

>> I THINK THERE'S OTHER ELEMENTS WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT.

>> IF LOUISVILLE IS SPENDING 800,000 TO CLEAN UP CAMPS THAT MONEY COULD BE SPENT IN EXPANDING SHELTER OPTIONS.

IT IS A MUCH MORE BETTER BANG FOR OUR BUCKS TALKING ABOUT INDOOR OPTIONS FOR ME IN A SANCTIONED EN COMMENT OUTDOORS IS AN INTERVENTION OF LAST RESORT AND SHOULD BE PART OF A LARGER PLAN.

I DON'T WANT IT TO BE WE'RE GOING TO CREATE AN INSTITUTIONALIZED CAMP THAT WILL BE THERE FOR DECADES.

>> I DON'T ANY ANYBODY WANTS THAT.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU.

THESE ARE COMPLEX AND IT'S DIFFICULT.

I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE WITH THAT.

THESE ARE REALLY TOUGH PUBLIC POLICY QUESTIONS THAT CITIES HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH.

AND THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO LOOK AT HOLISTIC APPROACHES AND GEORGE MENTIONED IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO SPENT $842,000 CLEARING CAMPS INSTEAD OF PROVIDING SERVICES.

AND THE OTHER PART IS WE ARE CRIMINALIZING HOMELESSNESS AND IT GETS TO THE CASE.

GRANT'S PASS IS BECAUSE IF YOU ARE UNHOUSED, UNSHELTERED, YOU HAVE TO SLEEP.

AND THE ONLY PLACE TO SLEEP IS IN PUBLIC.

AND ARE WE REALLY GOING TO CITE SOMEONE AND PUT THEM INTO JAIL FOR THAT?

THAT IS NOT COMPASSION.

THAT IS NOT HAVING EMPATHY.

THAT IS IN GRANT'S PASS WHEN THEY DECIDED TO DO THIS, THEY HAD A COMMUNITY MEETING.

AND THERE ONE OF THE CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS TALKED ABOUT DOING THIS TO MAKE IT AS UNCOMFORTABLE AS POSSIBLE FOR HOMELESS PEOPLE TO STAY IN OUR COMMUNITY.

THEY TALKED ABOUT DRIVING REPEAT OFFENDERS AND DROPPING THEM OFF.

THAT IS UGLY AND REPUGNANT.

AND I THINK ALL OF US CAN REJECT THAT.

>> KUNGU I AGREE WITH YOU.

WE SHOULD HAVE COMPASSION AND WE SHOULD BE CAREFUL WHEN ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE.

REAL PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED.

IMAGE BEARERS OF GOD ARE INVOLVED BUT IT GETS BACK TO A ROOT QUESTION THAT I BROUGHT UP.

IS CAN LOCAL GOVERNMENTS OR THE STATE GOVERNMENT ENACT POLICIES THAT ARE DEEMED FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL FOR THE GENERAL WELFARE?

AND THE CITY OF LOUISVILLE AND THE STATE GOVERNMENT DECIDED CAMPING IN PUBLIC, PUBLIC PARKS OR IN PRIVATE AREAS, IN FRONT OF PRIVATE BUSINESSES, IT'S NOT GOOD.

IT'S NOT DIGNIFYING TO THE UNSHELTERED.

IT'S NOT SAFE TO THE PUBLIC.

THERE IS A BETTER WAY TO DEAL.

AND AS FAR AS MONEY, TOO -- >> THEY CAN DO THOSE LAWS IN THE CASES THEY TALKED ABOUT ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT CITIES CAN DO.

AND THEY CAN DO THAT.

AS IT APPLIES TO SOMEONE WHO IS UNHOUSED OR UNSHELTERED AS TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE 8TH AMENDMENT.

>> Renee: WHICH IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.

I WANT TO GO TO ONE OF THE OTHER PROVISIONS IN HOUSE BILL 5 IS THE USE OF ALLOWS PROPERTY OWNERS TO USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST SOMEONE CAMPING ON THEIR PROPERTY IF THEY REFUSE TO LEAVE OR FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING THREATENED OR BEEN THREATS AGAINST THE PROPERTY OPENER.

SO IS THAT HOW DOES THAT SIT WITH YOU?

>> IT DOESN'T SIT WELL WITH ME.

PEOPLE THAT THE NATIONAL HOMELESS LAW PROGRAM CITED THAT IS THE MOST HORRENDOUS PART OF HOUSE BILL 5 IT MAKES OUR LEGISLATION ONE OF THE WORST IN THE COUNTRY.

FOR US, LIKE PEOPLE THAT ARE HOMELESS OFTEN ARE IN CRISIS.

AND THAT PERSON SHOULD BE ENGAGED BY A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL THAT HAS MENTAL HEALTH BACKGROUND OR A TRAINED OUTREACH WORKER TO MOVE THEM INTO A NEW SPACE.

AND I DON'T WANT TO DEPUTIZE A PERSONAL PROPERTY OWNER TO BE THE FIRST POINT OF CONTACT FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS HOMELESS.

>> Renee: IS THAT CONSTITUTIONAL?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

THE PREDICATE OF USE OF DEADLY FORCE IS MORE ACUTE THAN WE'RE SAYING NOW.

THE PERSON HAS TO BE ATTEMPTING TO DISPOSSESS THE HOMEOWNER OF HIS OR HER DWELLING UNDER A CLAIM OF RIGHT OR POSSESSION OR COMMITTING OR ATTEMPTING TO COMMIT A BURGLARY, ROBBERY OR FELONY INVOLVING THE USE-OF-FORCE OR COMMITTING OR ATTEMPTING TO COMMIT ARSON.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AUTHORIZING PEOPLE IN LAWFUL POSSESSION OF PROPERTY TO USE DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT THEIR HOMES FROM DISPOSSESSION, BURGLARY, ROBBERY AND ARSON.

THAT ISN'T CRAZY.

NOT PEOPLE BEING SHOT AT FOR BEING THERE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE BEING SHOT AT LET'S SAY BECAUSE THEY ARE THREATENING THE PEOPLE ALREADY THERE.

AND THAT IS PART OF OUR LAW ALREADY.

THIS JUST CODIFIES SOMETHING IN LAW.

YOU CAN PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY IT FOLLOWS BY A KENTUCKYISM.

YOU HAVE NO DUTY TO RETREAT EITHER.

I THINK THIS IS A CODIFICATION OF SOMETHING UNLESS I'M MISUNDERSTANDING THE LAW SOMETHING THAT IS TRUE ALREADY.

>> I AGREE WITH HIM.

I THINK THIS IS REALLY JUST A REWORDING OF KENTUCKY'S CURRENT SELF-DEFENSE LAW.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT WORRIED ABOUT THIS BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT'S PHRASED.

THE CONCERN IS IS WHEN IT WAS UNNECESSARY LANGUAGE BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS THIS MAYBE APPEARANCE TO HAVE PEOPLE ENGAGE IN THIS CONDUCT WHEN WE TO MAYBE GO THE EXTRA STEP THAT THEY SHOULDN'T.

IT ALMOST SAYS GO AHEAD AND BE THAT VIGILANTE OR DO THIS AND I THINK THAT IS THE SCARY PART.

WE WOULD RATHER HAVE PEOPLE CALL THE POLICE OR CALL A DIFFERENT RESPONDER TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE IF THEY ARE NOT LEAVING YOUR PROPERTY RATHER THAN TO ENGAGE INTO A PHYSICAL ALTERCATION WHERE YOU MAY GET HARMED AND THAT INDIVIDUAL MAY GET HARMED.

>> Renee: IS KENTUCKY MORE LENIENT WHEN IT COMES TO UNLAWFUL CAMPING?

IN TENNESSEE HAVE THEY ELEVATED THAT TO A FELONY CHARGE.

DID KENTUCKY TAKE A MORE SUBDUED APPROACH?

>> THAT IS ONE TAKE ON IT.

IT IS A NATIONAL TREND TO CRIMINALIZE HOMELESSNESS.

OUR ISSUE IS RIGHT NOW WE'RE CRIMINALIZING STREET CAMPING WHAT IS NEXT?

ARE WE GOING TO START CRIMINALIZING ANYBODY SITTING ON A CURB?

ANYBODY WHO IS TAKING UP SPACE ON A PARK BENCH?

OTHER CITIES ON THE WEST COAST HAVE DONE SIMILAR LAWS LIKE THAT.

SO FOR US, LIKE IT'S WE DON'T WANT TO START GOING DOWN THAT ROAD BECAUSE WE'RE DOING IT LENIENT THE FIRST TIME DOESN'T MEAN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ISN'T GOING TO COME BACK AND INCREASE PENALTIES WHEN WE DON'T SEE THE DESIRED OUTCOME OF HOUSE BILL 5.

>> Renee: IS THIS ENOUGH FOR YOU AND YOUR SIDE OR SHOULD IT GO FURTHER?

WOULD YOU LIKE IT TO BE UPGRADED TO FELONY?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS NECESSARY.

BUT I JUST WANT TO ADDRESS WHAT GEORGE SAID.

I DON'T THINK IT'S REASONABLE TO SAY THAT THE LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO COME BACK AND FINE PEOPLE FOR SITTING ON THE CURB OR ON A PARK BENCH.

YOU ARE DEALING WITH PRESERVING THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE OF YOUR COMMUNITY.

IF WE NEED TO FIND TEMPORARY SHELTER FOR THE HOMELESS THERE'S DO THAT.

DELL 32 MILLION CAME TO THE CITY OF LOUISVILLE TO ADDRESS HOUSING.

32 MILLION.

THE CITY OF LEXINGTON HAS 4 MILLION.

THEY HAVE AN OFFICE OF TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS THEY HAVE A BUDGET $1.4 MILLION THIS YEAR.

SO WE HAVE MONEY.

WE HAVE RESOURCES.

LET'S LOOK AT A WAY TO HELP THOSE UNSHELTERED IN A DIGNIFIED WAY.

AND, AGAIN, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE UNSHELTERED.

ONE MORE POINT ABOUT THAT POPULATION.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A SURVEY OF THOSE UNSHELTERED AND HOW MANY ARE STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION AND WITH MENTAL ILLNESS.

MY GUESS IT'S HIGHER THAN THE 37% THAT YOU SHARED EARLIER.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU THAT WE NEED TO BE THE CITY HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF ITS CITIZENS.

OUR UNSHELTERED BROTHERS AND CITIZENS ARE PART OF THAT COMMUNITY.

THEY ARE PART OF THAT AND WE NEED TO BE MAKING SURE WE ARE TAKING CARE OF THEM AS WELL.

>> THE AREA WE DISAGREE IS DO THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO CAMP IN PUBLIC?

THERE ARE RULES WHEN YOU ENTER PUBLIC SPACES WE ARE ALL OBLIGATED TO FOLLOW WHETHER WE ARE HOMELESS OR NOT AND WE ARE ON DIFFERENT SIDES.

>> AND IT IS NOT A QUESTION IF THEY HAVE A RIGHT.

IN LOUISVILLE THERE IS NO OPTION.

WE HAVE 800 SHELTER SPOTS FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTY AND WE'RE TRYING TO SERVE 1600 PEOPLE ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT.

FOR US, LIKE WE WANT PEOPLE TO GET THE SERVICES THAT THEY NEED.

AND THE 32 MILLION I WILL TAKE EVERY DOLLAR THAT WE CAN AND PUT IT INTO PAYING SHELTERS TO EXPAND SERVICES I WILL PUT IT INTO GOING TO 24 HOUR SHELTER MODELS.

WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BETTER OPTIONS TO GO IN.

BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, I BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING A CHOICE.

THEY ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE LESSER OF ALL THE EVILS THAT I'M FACING RIGHT NOW.

AND I'M TRYING TO ONE IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUTDO I GO INTO A SHELTER AND DO I GET WOKEN UP AT 6:00 A.M. AND I CANNOT COME BACK UNTIL 6:00 P.M. HOR DO I STAY OUT AND STAY WITH MY PEOPLE AND MY STUFF I'M WITH MY PET OR I'M WITH MY PARTNER.

BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES FAMILIES CANNOT GO IN TOGETHER.

IF YOU ARE A MOTHER WITH AN 18-YEAR-OLD SON YOU CANNOT GO INTO SHELTER YOU HAVE TO BE I SEPARATED.

OUR SHELTER SYSTEM NEEDS HELP.

OUR SHELTER SYSTEM NEEDS RESOURCES TO MEET THE NEEDS THAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IN THE MODERN ERA.

THE SHELTER SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE IS DESIGNED SOLELY TO KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE UNTIL TOMORROW.

AND FOR US, HOUSE BILL 5 DOESN'T HELP US MEET THOSE NEEDS OF GETTING PEOPLE IN AND GETTING PEOPLE SERVICES AND GETTING PEOPLE MOVED TOWARDS HOUSING.

>> Renee: Mr. NELSON YOU SAID SOMETHING EARLIER ABOUT SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER AND MENTAL HEALTH AND WE HEARD THE REPRESENTATIVE SAY THIS IS MEANT TO GET THOSE PEOPLE INTO THE SERVICES.

YET YOU JUST ASKED THE QUESTION ABOUT DATA HOW MANY KENTUCKIANS UNSHELTERED OR HOMELESS WHO SUFFER FROM THAT.

WAS THE POLICY NOT PREMATURE.

WE TALK ABOUT DATA-DRIVEN BASED PUBLIC POLICY.

DID THEY NOT HAVE THAT INFORMATION PRIOR TO MAKING THOSE PROVISIONS IN SECTION 17 OF HOUSE BILL 5?

>> I'M NOT SURE, RENEE, WHAT DATA THEY HAVE.

AND WE LOOKED TO OTHER STATES.

AND I THINK YOU CAN EXTRAPOLATE.

IT WILL NOT BE PERFECT CORRELATION BUT I THINK THAT WE DO KNOW I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE -- I THINK MANY OF US HAVE BEEN IN BIG CITIES.

LOUISVILLE OR OTHERWISE WHERE WE'VE SEEN HOMELESS UNSHELTERED PEOPLE.

AND YOU CAN TELL THAT THERE ARE ADDICTION ISSUES AND THERE ARE MENTAL ILLNESS ISSUES.

I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT NUMBERS BUT WE KNOW THAT THE NUMBERS ARE HIGH IN OTHER CITIES.

>> RENEE THERE IS A GUY GREG HE WROTE A BOOK CALLED HOMELESSNESS IS A HOUSING PROBLEM.

AND HE DID AN ANALYSIS ARE DRIVERS OF HOMELESSNESS LIKE WEATHER, OR WE HAVE GOOD SERVICES OR SMI SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER AND MENTAL ILLNESS THE ONLY THING HE FOUND BETWEEN WHAT YOUR AVERAGE RENT WAS AND YOUR VAN CANDIDACY RATE WAS.

IN SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER WAS THE BIGGEST DRIVER OF HOMELESSNESS WE WOULD SEE WEST VIRGINIA AND KENTUCKY LEADING THE COUNTRY AND WE DON'T SEE THAT F POVERTY WAS THE ISSUE, DETROIT WOULD HAVE THE BIGGEST LARGEST HOMELESS NUMBER IN THE COUNTRY.

WHAT WE SEE IS WHERE YOUR RENT IS SKYROCKETING AND VACANCY IS BELOW 5% IS WHEN YOU SEE AN UPTICK OF PEOPLE TRYING TO GET INTO HOUSING.

>> I WOULD SAY I THINK THERE'S OTHER FACTORS.

THERE ARE JOBS EVERYWHERE.

PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO HIRE.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE OTHER ELEMENTS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE HOMELESSNESS.

AND IT IS A COMPREHENSIVE ISSUE.

WE NEED TO LOOK AT IT HOLISTICALLY.

I THINK JUST PUTTING A ROOF FOR A MATTER OF DIGNITY, WE SHOULD HOUSE THOSE UNSHELTERED.

BUT WE ALSO SHOULD HELP THEM IN OTHER WAYS.

WHETHER IT'S JOB TRAINING, WHETHER IT'S WORKING ON RELATIONAL SKILLS WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

>> AND THAT IS THE GOAL OF HOUSING FIRST PROGRAMS IS ONCE YOU GET IN, IT'S NOT HOUSING FIRST ONLY.

IT IS SURGING RESOURCES AND CASE MANAGEMENT TO FIGURE OUT LIKE WHAT IS THE PLAN TO TALK ABOUT SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS THERE'S WELL SPRING THAT IS THEIR WHOLE ENTITY WE GET PEOPLE HOUSING AND WE MAKE SURE THEY ARE GOING TO TALK WITH THEIR THERAPIST THAT THEY HAVE THE SUPPORTS TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE ON THEIR MEDICINE.

AND THEY HAVE SUCCESSES LIKE IN LOUISVILLE, WE HAVE A 97% SUCCESS RATE OF KEEPING PEOPLE HOUSED AND PERMANENT HOUSING PROGRAMS AND WE SEE THAT NUMBER REFLECTED IN THE OTHER TWO CONTINUUMS OF CARE.

>> Renee: AS WE WRAP UP THE DISCUSSION WHICH HAS BEEN ENGAGING.

TO YOU PROFESSOR.

LET'S SAY THE U.S. SUPREME COURT WHICH IS EXPECTED TO RENDER A RULING ON THIS IN JUNE, SAYS THAT IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL GRANT'S PASS VERSUS JOHNSON AND THAT UNLAWFUL CAMPING DOES VIOLATE THE EIGHTHTH AMENDMENT AGAINST CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT WHAT COULD IT MEAN FOR THE HOUSE BILL 5 AND THOSE PROVISIONS?

IS THERE SEVERABILITY CLAUSE THAT WOULD ALLOW THE REST OF THE BILL TO GO INTO EFFECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I HAVE NOT READ ALL OF HB5 IT IS A LONG BILL.

IT MAY HAVE ITS OWN SEVERABILITY CLAUSE BUT WHETHER IT HAS IT OR NOT, THERE IS AN OMNIBUS SEVERABILITY CLAUSE THAT APPLIES TO EVERYTHING.

THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS YES.

I WOULD ALSO SAY AND YOU DIDN'T ASK THIS, I THINK THE SUPREME COURT IS NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

I THINK THE SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO REVERSE THE 9TH CIRCUIT.

WE HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT THE CASE VERY MUCH.

I THINK THAT THE 9TH CIRCUIT'S DECISION ALTHOUGH IT THEY DO CITE A COUPLE OF OLDER CASES FROM THE 1960s, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF AN OUTLIER.

AND I THINK I'M NOT SURE, BUT I THINK THE SUPREME COURT WILL CLIP THE 9TH CIRCUIT'S WINGS.

>> Renee: AS YOU LOOK AT THE NEXT GENERAL ASSEMBLY A 30-DAY SESSION WHAT WILL YOU ASK THEM TO DO EITHER ONE OF YOU?

>> FOR ME IT'S ALL ABOUT INCREASING OUR HOUSING SUPPLY.

REDUCING BARRIERS FOR ACCESS THAT HOUSING AND SUPPORTING LOW INCOME RENTERS TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T LOSE HOUSING THROUGH LANDLORD TENANT REFORMS AND GETTING EMERGENCY RENTAL ATIES ASSISTANCE.

>> Renee: SHOULD THIS PART OF THE BILL STAND?

HOW DO WE WE'RE DOING IT RIGHT?

>> WE'LL SEE THE RESULTS IN OUR BIGGER CITIES.

AGAIN, THE INTENT OF THE LEGISLATURE WAS TO PRESERVE OUR COMMUNITIES.

TO PRESERVE THE HEALTH, SAFETY AND WELFARE TO KNOW IF WE'RE DOING IT RIGHT.

LOOK, IF WE FIND A BETTER AVENUE FOR THE UNSHELTERED WE WILL KNOW WE HAVE DONE IT RIGHT.

WHETHER A PUBLIC DESIGNATED ENCAMPMENT OR WHETHER FOR TRANSITIONING BETTER THEN WE'LL KNOW WE'VE DONE IT RIGHT.

>> Renee: WELL, WE'LL SEE HOW THINGS GO AND WE MENTIONED HOUSE BILL 18 WHICH WAS THE SOURCE OF INCOME AND SO WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT ON THIS PROGRAM BEFORE.

SOME WOULD SAY THAT EXACERBATES THE ISSUE FURTHER?

>> FOR US IT MEANS SERVICE PROVIDERS WILL WORK TWICE AS HARD TRYING TO FIND A LANDLORD TO TAKE A HOUSING VOUCHER.

>> Renee: GOOD DISCUSSION AND WE HOPE YOU'VE ENJOYED IT.

YOU CAN WATCH THE PROGRAM ON-LINE IF YOU MISSED ANY OF IT OR LIKE TO SEE IT AGAIN.

IT WILL BE AVAILABLE TOMORROW AT KET.ORG/KY TONIGHT AND JOIN US EACH WEEKNIGHT FOR KENTUCKY EDITION WHERE WE INFORM AND INSPIRE AT THE SAME TIME AND BREAKDOWN THESE KINDS OF ISSUES THAT WILL STILL BE DEBATED IN SOME FORM OR ANOTHER IN THIS STATE AND ELSEWHERE.

AND ALSO WE INVITE YOU TO JOIN BILL BRYANT AND A TEAM OF JOURNALISTS TO DISCUSS THE NEWS OF THE WEEK ON "COMMENT ON KENTUCKY" FRIDAY AT 8:00 P.M. 7 CENTRAL.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

"KENTUCKY TONIGHT".

I'M RENEE SHAW.

UNTIL I SEE YOU AGAIN, TAKE REALLY GOOD CARE.

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