- Well, good afternoon and welcome to the Friday afternoon Architecture for Health Lecture series, this is our final presentation for the semester, so I am glad that you're here with us.

You're in for a special treat today, very dear friend is our guest speaker Tye Farrow, an architect from Canada and let me give you just a brief intro on Tye, his presentation today is working at the intersection of architecture and neuroscience.

Ty is world recognized to be honest, a world recognized pioneer in tackling how what we create either gives or causes health award-winning projects around the globe in salutogenic disease or design, not disease, salutogenic design or designs that can cause and give health.

He is the first Canadian architect to have earned a master of neuroscience applied to architecture, think of that and he adds that credential to a master of architecture and urban design from Harvard and a bachelor of architecture from University of Toronto and as you might expect, someone with that range of training and reputation is much sought after as a speaker, which he has done now in over 40 cities on six continents, including great venues like Salk Institute, the Hopkins University School of Medicine, Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic and Tye has been called a global leader, making a significant contribution to health and humanity through the medium of architecture that at the Stockholm World Design and Health Congress.

I first got introduced to Tye at an awards dinner, a banquet celebrating great works of salutogenic design many years ago now in Glasgow and it just so happened that Tye was being recognized for his work on the Credit Valley Hospital, which I hope you'll see pictures of today.

But it so happened that I got seated at a table full of board members from Credit Valley and I spent the whole dinner hour listening to people like stole the virtues of working with Tye as a person and as a creative genius.

It really is a treat today to have him now our guest making a presentation to the Friday afternoon Architecture for Health lecture series, please help me welcome Tye Farrow.

- Well, Ray one thing that I know for certain after we've known each other for such a long time is when Ray asks you to do something, the answer is yes and you jump into it enthusiastically, so it is fantastic to share some time with you this afternoon.

What I want to do is explore the idea of how we actively construct health, how can and what actually causes health?

There's a lot of discussion that we have around the idea of high performance buildings, awfully often tied to ecological issues as envelopes of buildings and systems, but what I wanna explore is how we can create high human performance buildings and explore the idea can we intentionally tune space, there's the German word Raum stimmen that's often used.

Can we tune space to have positive outcomes that relate to creativity, empathy, emotions, perception, memory, our ability to stimulate learning and very important to create the bonds and the social interaction that are so important and really in summary in a few words, really the idea of how the spaces we create activate optimal health.

So what I want to do is spend a little time talking about the relationship of space, the brain and mind as it relates to health, want to talk about design and its relationship to ecological health, social health, physical health and importantly mind health.

I'm gonna spent a little time define what I believe the word health means, it's used health and wellbeing quite extensively these days and I'd like to just be clear on what that means, I'd like to then deepen our, go a little deeper and look at how our mind works as it relates to perception through the lens of constructive theory of emotion.

I'd then like to step a little further into that and look at how our mind constructs enriched relationships, which is people to people and then look at the parallel of how our mind relates to enriched environments, which is how we construct our people, person to place relationships.

I'd like to then show how that is characterized in the creation, the elements and the characteristics of enriched environments, things that we can actively do and then I'm gonna show that through the context of a couple buildings, some hospitals and health facilities in Canada, Israel, Ireland and one specifically around a covid ICU, so let's jump into it.

So in the late 1940s, a man Donald Herb, he brought some lab mice from lab cages and brought them home into what would be called and these days, an enriching environment and what he found was the mice raised in these environments were better at solving problems than the ones that were in the lab cages.

The research went further into the University of California Berkeley in the sixties and it found in fact that the mice in these enriched environments began to grow the synapses, as you know, the connections between the neurons at a significantly faster rate than the others 25%, as well as the thickened, the cortex of the brain.

The research went on to find also that impoverished environments, in fact do the exact opposite, they damage the growth of the synapses connecting the neurons and this was really famously shown in a case in California, went to the Supreme Court, Robert King, part of jailed men, three men called the Angola three, they were in solitary confinement, just shy of 30 years for all but one hour a day, no windows, little human interaction and it found the Supreme Court case that this damaged the hippocampus of the brain, which is important for memory, spatial orientation and effectively the brain withered.

This in fact, has been taken and proven more on a sinister side that some countries torture people using a white room, they put them in a room such as this lights all time and it damages the hippocampus in the brain in a significant way.

The question is, why is this important to where we live, where we learn where we work and certainly the places we heal.

The question then is, what if we were dedicated to creating buildings, hospitals that actively caused health?

What if the environments of which we inhabit were health giving to the people that began to use them and what happens if we would no longer tolerate designs that cause disease and I'm using that word specifically, depression and boredom, what we do know is that there is no such thing as neutral space.

What we create either causes health or I think importantly the word is health giving, they're generous or these spaces erode our ability to flourish and that is ecological, emotional, physical as well as civic health, so the question then, why is this relevant to what and how we build?

We do know that design has a significant impact on ecological health, we know design has a significant impact equally on societal health and equally we know that design has a significant impact on physical health and really the tsunami of chronic diseases that are washing across our healthcare systems.

The profession has sort of jumped to the plate and introduced a whole range of certifications, challenge is standards and guidelines, but I would say that arguably these are becoming what I'd call a standard of care within the profession.

But equally, one could argue that these are focused more on the hardware of the body and that's a bit of a simplification, but they're not focused on the operating system, which really begins to relate to what's up in our skull, which really ties into the concept of mind health designs, relationships, specifically to the mind and how we function and this begins to lead us really to the intersection that has been bubbling for about the last 10 years, is the intersection of neuroscience, the work of neuroscientists and architecture.

Spaces that we occupy any place that we move into, we have cognitive and pre-cognitive reactions and those reactions have physiological and psychological reactions of our body.

If we begin to deepen that a little further into the ideas of the intersection of neuroscience and architecture, we know that neurogenesis occurs at all times and all stages through our lives, which has a significant impact on our ability to learn and grow and the environment has a significant role in playing in this.

If we look on a neurobiologic level, positive stimulating environments do a whole range of things to our bodies as you know, they can reduce stress and hormones, decrease blood pressure, enhanced memory and learning and as we've heard, they strengthen our neuro networks.

And so as a result of that, we need to begin to think of the spaces we create as non-invasive therapeutic treatments that alleviate the effects of neuro degeneration and back to the idea of beginning to actively optimize our health.

But what I wanna explore also has our view of health changed over the years and in fact, the reality is that if you look at our view of health and wellbeing over a 5,000 year period a holistic view of it was very prominent, but if you look at the last hundred years of where we've been, we have had a more pathogenic view, what are the causes of disease as opposed to a salutogenic view?

And to frame that a little further, there are 8,000 known causes of disease and there are only 80 known, clearly we find what we look for if we go back 5,000 years in traditional Chinese medicine, this idea of cultivating harmony was at the core of it, if we look at traditional aboriginal views of health, the whole idea of these intersecting circles of health as a related individual, ecological, cultural and economic and societal health, look at Aristotles and the whole basis of eudaimonia his concept, which which was around human flourishing.

Hippocrates the grandfather, I suppose of medicine wasn't just on preventing sickness, but it was looking at diet, lifestyle, environmental issues again that could activate health.

The Romans were the same public health, the whole idea of aqueducts through to the public baths.

If you look through this period, the 16 to the 1800s, this whole larger state of wellbeing and if you look at the words on the screen, hydrotherapy, herbalism, naturalpathic medicine, all of those things are beginning to reemerge where we are today, but suddenly not particularly different to what we've just gone through, the cholera academic began to change that and we began to shift our view to really in the late 1800s, this idea of germ theory and western evidence-based medicine that led to a very significant point, which the Flexner report that was advising all significant medical education places primarily through the United States and it said if it wasn't evidence-based western medicine, it was effectively witchcraft, which wiped out a few thousand years of this holistic thinking and if we look at that progressing a little further into the 1920s, we were at a stage where life expectancy and poverty and prosperity was growing significantly, but that was at the expense of what we're seeing now is all of the ecological demise.

But this was also the rise of chronic disease and the beginning of this common source epidemic as a result of the way we designed our cities, the things we consumed.

But in the 1960s and seventies, the wellness movement began to come back to the forefront, you can think of Jane Fonda and the exercise things, the videos that we used to see Phil Knight, the beginning of Nike and the exercise regiment were all at this time at Antonovsky obviously a very important person and the development of the idea of salutogenesis the same period and beginning to look at a whole variety of these issues which are significant to architecture and then as we begin to see that the wellness movement is going mainstream, there's significant spending in it as well as the whole shift to integrative medicine practice in all the leading medical schools.

As a side note, that global wellness economy is moving at a pace that will outpace traditional healthcare disease care and you see right now, all the major tech companies are jumping on it, which leads us to where we are right now at this point again, of focusing not on the pathogenic side, but how we can activate optimal health and accelerate optimal health.

So the question is, what is the role of the environments that we create in activating health and I'm going to really frame it for you as the analogy that in fact, architecture is very much like food.

We consume it, it has the ability to enrich our mind, body and arguably spiritual health also or it has the ability to do the exact opposite, it can begin to starve our senses in all ways and a variety of the environments that we occupy are the equivalent to empty calories that we consume in food that cause this depression and boredom.

I put this image up on the screen and I say to you, "Okay, what do you see in front of you?"

and I suspect your response is, "Well, I see a hamburger."

and in fact what I would say is no, this is a metaphor for a lot of the buildings that we create and in fact, a lot of the hospitals we create, it's very functional.

You don't need a plate, you don't need a knife and fork, you can hold it in your hands, it gives you the function of the calories, some protein.

There's a little crunch and a little spice with the mustard, but arguably it leaves you worse off after you consume it because of the sodium content and it leaves you feeling empty after an hour because of the way it is composed.

The question is this picture that's coming up on the screen, does this represent as the metaphor, the type of environments that we're actively creating that are full of these super foods, like the little blueberries that you think that are packed with minerals and vitamins that do so much to all of our systems through to our immune systems?

And so what I want to explore with you is the question, are there actual architectural super vitamins, the equivalent of food super vitamins that we can infuse intentionally within our buildings?

But before that, I want to deepen the idea of perception and how we perceive and how our mind interacts with our surroundings and I'm going to use Dr. Barrett's constructed theory of emotion is really the foundation of the thinking.

And what she says is that we have and we construct in our mind's eye external spaces and in internal spaces and what happens is there are inputs that come from the external spaces and they are interpreted within our mind and they create predictions of what we should do and these predictions are as a result of things that we have learned in the past, cultural or social, as well as past experiences, things we remember.

So what's a simple example of that, let's take a little bumble bee, so you might see a bumble bee while you're walking along a field up in the mountains or it may be on a busy city street or you may see a single bee dancing from flower to flower or a swarm of bees that is coming towards you.

Those things then have acoustic visual senses that we need to interpret, so the sound of a one bee, the sound of many, a bee touching you or stinging you and then that comes to the filter that it moves through of things that we've learned or remember, did you read about killer bees in the newspaper this morning or were you watching cartoons?

Do you have a fatal allergy that's put you in the hospital if you get stung or are you a beekeeper and you're very much at home with the bees?

What happens is we then make a prediction, should we stay or should we go and that same thing happens like the little bumblebee on the way we interpret walking down a city street that has trees and park benches or it has cars streaming past us and the buildings all boarded up, the sense the sounds, all of that makes a prediction, is this a place we wanna stay or a place we wanna get out of very, very quickly.

The other filter that is important when we begin to dive a little further into neuroscience and architecture is that the way our mind begins to form and construct enriched relationships, person to place, person to our environments is very similar to the way that we construct person to person relationships and I wanna explore that a little further.

But the way we frame that in our mind is using something or the simple way to explain that is using something called the circumflex and a circumflex is a circle and this is a very simplified representation of all the emotions we have and we form, but really that our emotions are shaped by this idea of effect, which is the range of feelings which are based on valiance meaning are they pleasant or unpleasant or arousal, which is really the intensity, what do I mean by that?

Well, valiance you look at the diagram, if you go from the left to the right on the one side, the left, it's miserable, moving across to the right is delight, that's valiance.

Arousal is going in the other axis, so on the very bottom is really being exhausted or sleepy moving through to the top, which is energetic, so if you look at the qualities, the positive qualities, emotional qualities, as they relate to what's defined as enrich person to person relationships, these are supported by information that come out of psychotherapeutic impact studies that the two primary qualities of enriched relationships are feeling emotionally safe, understood and accepted and being able to activate one's own resources, which is really tied back to salutogenesis in a sense of coherent, what do I mean by that?

Well, these qualities simplify down of these person to person, positive relationships can be summed up and you can begin to think of these, think of a mentor that has helped you your career in the past.

The relationship is probably generous it has legacy, there's a sense of occurrence on its optimistic relationships that are natural and warm and have variability and vitality.

They're authentic, honest, true, solid, trustworthy, silent, intimate and still, but those person to person relationships, the way we form them within our mind is very similar to the way that we construct our person to place relationships.

So the way there's an idea called neural mirroring, when you see somebody that smiles at you, what do you do think?

You instantly smile back, somebody begins to have a smile that you think a joke is being told, you mirror it back, so that happens person to person, but it also happens person to place.

So these same qualities of the way we construct are person to place relationships, these qualities of feeling emotionally safe, understood feelings of being able to activate our resources are the same way and the person to place characteristics.

So I'm going to just walk through what these qualities of enriched environments are again, person to place.

The first is generous generosity and legacy surroundings that give more than they ask for, back to the example of the hamburger that doesn't and they communicate a higher purpose of something else and higher aspirations, environments that where you feel engaged and stimulated a sense of occurrence, environments radiate abundance, youthfulness and life have seen in optimism.

We hear a lot about the qualities of nature spaces, often we talk about biophilia, but they're inspired not only by natural plants, but natural shapes like materials, there's this concept of mid-range dimensional, complex fractal patterns, variety in vitality, spaces that stimulate background bodily feelings, as well as seeking in curiosity, this concept of positive ambiguity that we won't have much time to get into.

Authenticity we know the difference of places that feel real and rooted and that the passing of time and this last one, which I think is very important coming out of covid this idea of an unplugged architecture that allows us to listen to our own being, these concepts of stillness and silence and intimacy.

So these qualities are, as you can see similar and informed these person to place relationships mirroring, which is the neuro mirroring concept of the person to place relationships, so let me walk you through some examples to help really try and frame some of these ideas.

This concept of generosity and legacy things, surroundings that offer more than they need to and communicate a higher purpose, I'm gonna show you one of our buildings, it's shared set medical center in Jerusalem.

It's an existing campus with about a million square feet on it, the plan then is to take it up to about 3 million square feet and we're in construction right now, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on the various elements, but just to begin to understand that the first building is really as a nursing school, some bench to bedside areas, a new cancer center, a new sort of main entry drop off, we're gonna talk about that a little further.

Beyond that, there is a new inpatient area, a variety of a large sort of ER and related components, a number of lab and significant research areas that really take us into the final master plan as such that is really under construction where we are at this stage, some significant research areas.

I think it's coming through a little slowly on your screen, but at the center of this campus, which wasn't in the program it wasn't asked for, was beginning to create a significant central park that would be used for not only the people that are within the hospital, but in fact the park became not the architecture being the symbol of the hospital, but the park being the main symbol of the healthcare campus.

And so this idea of beginning to use the buildings as something that communicate greater than just the services that are being asked for and offered within the building itself as a concept of generosity.

I'd like to then move a little further into the next idea, which is around this idea of a sense of occurrence, this concept of venues where you feel engaged and stimulated as a result of the way we create our environments.

The example I'm gonna use is a project we're involved in Dublin, Ireland, which is a place called Matter Private, on a significant street in Ireland, it's the flagship cancer center.

It has a whole variety of vertical, horizontal and wraparound additions and I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time getting into the planning.

There's obviously significant complexity of the main workhorse is the ICU, but what I wanna spend a little bit of time on is really beginning to look at how the experience of approaching a hospital translates into the care that you're getting.

For example, the chief of staff when we were working through this his comment was, "The building doesn't communicate that we're a cathedral of medicine, but really a simple parish church."

His worry was that the whole pathway of healing that the staff begins to look after the people when they come in, isn't translated in the physical experience, that you come up pass some ambulances in through a tight entrance into a very busy lobby and it communicates more disruption than it does at ease of the experience and so this idea of beginning to create, which is renowned in design development, which is beginning to create this covered exterior environment that Dublin, that's rainy as you move along the street, not only if you're going to the hospital, but if anybody's walking along the street that you are protected and it's beginning to communicate some of the experience that is beginning to occur further within the hospital itself.

So being able to sense the experience well before you move in and certainly the consistency as you move through the hospital itself translating into the the experience of care that you're going to receive.

I wanna move into the next element, which is then around this idea of optimism in places that begin to radiate a specific message of life, abundance and youthfulness as important characteristics of healthcare environments and the experience of the building I'm going to share with you is the first building on that campus in Jerusalem, which is the Sharett cancer center, which in fact just opened to serving patients just this week and so the building has begun to get the name, they call it the butterfly.

And the reason it's called the butterfly is the shape of the building really begins to look like wings and why a butterfly?

Because a butterfly is a metaphor for the metamorphosis of going from a bug or caterpillar to a butterfly, but it's also to try and communicate that fragility and also the beauty of life.

This section through the building itself, you'll see has a number of cascading gardens that begin with a significant one where radiation treatment is up through every area of the building.

Both the views as well as the access of daylight is very important and significant in the design, which sits under the central skylight as well as a significant secondary skylight also.

This is the central garden on the lower level, so you can begin to think of the ideas of biophilia of both natural plants, but the inside and the outside is the largest installation and use of mass timber in the region and probably one of the hospitals globally.

You can see that this idea of optimism and the wood as it begins to bend and curve up as you move up through the buildings, the wood begins to create a filter for views in and out that lead up to really this central skylight that is on the upper floor.

The inside is finished, the outside is at present under construction this photograph, you'll see some of the wood beams, the exterior wood structure that's being referred to that looks like dinosaur bones, but you can begin to see the installation of them on site with the project complete within the next month.

Certainly that project begins to brace not only optimism as well as the ideas of nature as we hear a lot about spaces that have natural plants like you saw in the gardens, but also natural materials, natural lines, shapes, as well as these mid-range complex a fractal patterns and I'll move into the Credit Valley hospital that we design.

It's a larger hospital with a cancer center and I'm just gonna focus on the main lobbies, so as you begin to move into this space, really the idea of the design was to communicate the hospital's mission of this idea that you are in good hands.

So when you walk in, it begins to look and appear as if it is a tree lined garden, you'll see the skylights, the natural light, the natural shapes, natural materials that are used to begin to communicate very specific messages and values of the organization and these go down into leaf patterns that are embedded in the trazo in fact, that are made up of recycled bottles.

So really trying to tie in those larger concepts of wider and ecological health and you can begin to see really some of the pursuit of the fractal patterns.

The last image that I'll show you of the project really is at the radiation treatment areas, that the structure, all of these elements are structural, by the way, I wanna emphasize that this is a public hospital, publicly funded hospital on in fact quite a tight budget, which we had to compare to every other one.

This image is the entrance into the radiation treatment, the symbol of the structure is trying to radiate this idea of growth and something living as opposed to cancer as a death message, variety and vitality.

This sense of discovery, seeking and curiosity a hospital that we did in northern Canada about a million square feet.

The whole building is designed around this main curved entry area that follows the path of the sun as well as the radiation treatment rooms in the bottom right hand corner are one of only about seven in the world that have daylight entering it.

But you'll see the main public corridor is in a straight line, it has a very gentle bow to it, this idea of seeking and curiosity that it doesn't surprise you, but it begins to lead you around the corner that's translated all the way up into the stairs so that when you move through the stairs, your vision shifts from side to side, which begins to tie into that seeking curiosity and that bodily basic finish as a major idea.

Authenticity, a very important concept that will then move on to next, this is a hospital on the West Coast of Canada for first nation aboriginal area, it begins to try and communicate messages of some of their things, this is called a bent box that used to have religious importance holding things that are very sacred, given as gifts and began to be the metaphor working with the elders of what the hospital could be in this vocabulary is then translated or trying to tie into the building, the main lobby has a significant piece of art that we worked with a local artist, it's made from offcut wood, from the community, a local mill, it's assembled by the children as well as some of the local art work so that as you approach the hospital, it begins to communicate specific messages around this real rooted and this sense of authenticity of the experience that you will receive in the hospital.

I want to finish with this last project and this last idea as I mentioned, this idea of silence, stillness, solidness and intimacy as a very important concept and this picture, the example I'm gonna use is about an unplugged architecture that's important is looking specifically here, this being a covid hospital that was put in an arena no daylight, we know that premature babies, that's a bad thing for them, that they need to be near daylight to enhance their health and wellbeing, but we didn't do this with the people that were being treated for covid and more importantly, we didn't do that for the people that were healing.

And so I wanna show you a design that we're involved with for a rapid assembly, high performance covid ICU inpatient unit, I'm showing it in the context specifically around this idea of health and wellbeing and we know the four waves of the pandemic.

The first is of covid, the second is pushing out the people that had life threatening surgery that needed to happen, which then the third wave that pushed out, the people that don't have life threatening, but in fact chronic diseases that need attention and the final wave is we're seeing everywhere is these issues of mental health and burnout and specifically the mental health and burnout that is becoming very problematic within our healthcare system and so this is the rapid assembly ICU inpatient unit, we designed a picture really behind the main staff area.

I'm not gonna get deep into the planning, but you'll begin to see it's a very, very dense floor plate, the care areas in the middle, the staff areas here, the corridor are not shown and then the inpatient, the ICU rooms that are wrapping around it, the main feature is above it is a clear story, which you'll see in this illustration and why is the clear story located there?

Well, importantly that in a hospital room, usually the the window is beside you and if you're sedated, it's very hard to look out this design using the clear story while you're lying in your bed, coming to consciousness or not, you have the ability to look straight out, it's over the staff areas to become an accelerant for them.

So if you look at the quality of light, so if you look as the sun is beginning to go down, beginning to get to the dusk and when the sunset comes around leading into the evening light into the starlight and then coming back to the morning, why is this important?

Simply to allow you to know that you're alive, to use the change of time and seasons, weather, a cloud coming in front of the sun to really begin to stimulate the mind health of the occupants that are working there or the ones that are living there.

I hope what I've been able to do is to show you and talk to you about the importance of these intentional design choices, these elements of enriched environments that we can intentionally choose to infuse our designs, our buildings, our hospitals with and these things have the ability to create positive psychological and physiological health for the people that are using the buildings, why do we wanna do this?

To stimulate learning memory and enhance social and relationships, but the big question is why do we want to create enriched environments simply for one person?

Be it the reason that the architecture we create has the ability to create the conditions of which we can flourish and thrive or do the exact opposite.

If you have interest in that, there's a book that's in the works, it'll be out in the spring and it's called Constructing Health and Exploration, importantly of generous architecture through the neurological, physiological and emotional benefits of enriched environments.

If you have any interest in these subjects, if you want to get more information, do not hesitate to reach out to a variety of sources, we try and put a lot of information out there both through our Instagram and our LinkedIn accounts, also our website but equally, don't hesitate to reach out to me with my email as I'd be pleased to share any information with you, but why don't we stop there and and move into questions.

- Thanks Tye, that does not disappoint, that was beautiful any questions here in the studio?

Cynthia, I know you'll be checking online, do we have questions there?

No, we do have one, please.

- This question is from one of our students, Clara (indistinct) and she would like to know how you became involved with neuroscience and architecture combined?

- The short answer is I stumbled into it, I'm a practitioner obviously I'm not a scientist and there's a British social anthropologist who I'm very fond of, who has a saying that he thinks it's important to think through making as opposed to make through thinking.

So the idea that you do something, you test and you try and understand what the results of it is, that's I do through my practice over the last probably 20 some odd years at the early stages with that project that looks like a trees that I showed you, the Credit Valley hospital is I knew in inherently that these environments had a significant impact on your gut, how you felt inside and that those had physiological and psychological impacts and as I moved along, I began to deepen that understanding and I came across a fantastic book by a New York Times writer who began to talk about the neurological physiological aspects as it related to your mind and how your brain works and we're not taught how our brain works, we're not taught how perception works.

There's no architecture school that I know that gets into that in a deep way, which is remarkable and then I came across the Academy of Neuroscience for Architecture, which is at the Salk Institute.

Look it up, it's a very important body, it has tons of information gotten involved in setting up a Canadian chapter and some speaking there, but then just before covid I discovered that the University of Venice, VIU it is the first university in the world to offer a master of science of by to architecture and design and I was in fact in the second class.

So I was a fly in student, as I was looking after my work in Europe through to Israel, I would spend a month in classrooms studying and then I would come back home and work and study along the way and that really deepened my understanding of it.

It seems the subject area, it's very, very new, but it's just the relationship of our perception and beginning to understand deeply of how we react to our environments and so I think it's certainly an eye opener for me.

But on the other hand, what it does do is it begins to reinforce the things that I knew in my gut, that gut feeling and interestingly, the idea that the mind is embodied, the mind isn't just fixed in the skull, is your mind uses all your senses, all your organs and in fact your gut, your stomach is a very important thing that communicates messages up to your brain, are things right or are they not right from the senses you get from the outside.

So that's how I began to discover it and what I'm doing is really using this book to really try and connect the dots and try and help me understand and make sense of what I do on a daily basis with a bit more rigor of the research that has gone into it.

- That our time constraints must make that the last word, but a wonderful presentation a great answer to a strong question, thank you Clara, Tye it has been great being with you, wonderful having you join us here in the studio, thanks so much.

- [Tye] Look forward to seen you in person soon, Ray, I hope all the best.