PEOPLE OFTEN LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING HAPPENS TO THEM FOR A REASON.

IN SUFFERING, FOR INSTANCE, YOU'RE GIVEN WHAT YOU CAN HANDLE.

FOR THOSE OF FAITH, GOD IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A PLAN.

FOUR YEARS AGO KATE BOWLER BECAME A MOTHER FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.SHE WAS ALSO A DIVINITY SCHOOL HISTORIAN AND JUST FINISHED WRITING A BOOK.

THEN CAME THE PHONE CALL FROM HER DOCTOR WHO TOLD HER SHE HAD INCURABLE STAGE FOUR CANCER.

THIS, OF COURSE, TURNED HER LIFE UPSIDE DOWN, INCLUDING HER RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

HER MEMOIR, "EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON AND OTHER LIES I'VE LOVED," EXAMINE HOW TO HANDLE EVERYDAY LIFE WHEN NOTHING MAKES SENSE ANYMORE AND HOW TO COPE WHEN YOU LOSE FAITH.

SHE SAT DOWN WITH OUR MICHEL MARTIN TO TALK ALL ABOUT IT AND TO TELL HER STORY.

>> KATE BOWLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> I'M SO HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> LET'S BACK UP FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH YOUR STORY.

YOU ARE MARRIED TO YOUR CHILDHOOD SWEETHEART.

YOU BOUGHT YOUR FIRST HOME AFTER A LONG STRUGGLE WITH INFERTILITY, YOU HAVE YOUR BEAUTIFUL SON.

YOU'RE PUBLISHING YOUR FIRST BOOK WHICH IS A GROUNDBREAKING STUDY OF PROSPERITY GOSPEL AND THEN HAVING THESE PAINS.

AND YOU'RE GOING TO DOCTOR AFTER DOCTOR AND YOU'RE LIKE, WHAT ARE THESE PAINS ALL ABOUT?

AND THEN YOU GET THAT PHONE CALL THAT YOU KNOW IS GOING TO CHANGE EVERYTHING.

DO YOU MIND TALKING ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH.

I REALLY THOUGHT I HAD GOTTEN TO THAT PLACE.

I HAD SO MUCH AFTER DEFERMENT OF SCHOOL AND THEN SO MUCH OF PAYING INTO THIS LIFE YOU THOUGHT YOU'D HAVE.

I HAD IT FOR ABOUT SIX MONTHS AND I HAD RANDOM PAINS.

THERE'S NO HISTORY OF CANCER IN MY FAMILY SO IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME.

I'M A PRETTY ARTICULATE, I THINK, NARRATOR OF MY OWN EXPERIENCE.

SO I WAS BEGGING PEOPLE TO TAKEI JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE THAT IT WAS AS BAD AS IT WAS.

SO, WHEN THEY CALLED AND SAID I HAD STAGE 4 COLON CANCER, IT WAS LIKE A BOMB WENT OFF.

I COULDN'T EVEN PUT THOUGHTS TOGETHER AND I CERTAINLY COULDN'T IMAGINE WHAT LIFE WOULD MEAN AFTER THAT.

>> THERE'S SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT HERE BECAUSE YOU'RE A PROFESSOR AT A DIFEN STI SCHOOL, DUKE DIF DIFEN DIVINITY SCHOOL AND THINKING ABOUT THE GOSPEL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN THE PRESENT MOMENT.

>> YEAH.

>> HOW DID THAT STRIKE YOU, GIVEN IT'S YOUR DAILY WORK.

>> IT DID FEEL PRETTY IRONIC TO HAVE SPENT TEN YEARS STUDYING RELIGIOUS EXPLANATIONS FOR SUFFERING.

AND THEN TO BE STRUCK WITH SUCH A TERRIBLE SITUATION THAT PEOPLE STARTED EXPLAINING TO ME.

I HONESTLY HAD NEVER HAD THAT EXPERIENCE OF BEING A PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED.

THAT WHEN PEOPLE MET ME, ALL THEY WANTED TO DO WAS EXPLAIN WHY IT WAS ME, NOT THEM.

AND THAT WAS HARD BECAUSE I KIND OF THOUGHT -- I MEAN, IN A DIVINITY SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER MORE COMPASSIONATE I HOPED FOR CONTEXT THAT PEOPLE WOULD HAVE MORE RESOURCES TO SAY -- TO JUST SAY, I'M SO SORRY THIS HAPPENED.

BUT INSTEAD, I MEAN, PEOPLE REACHED INTO THEIR THEOLOGICAL BACK POCKET FOR ALL KINDS OF THINGS.SOME OF IT WAS THE MORE,, LET'S DIG INTO YOUR SPIRITUAL PAST AND SEE WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE DONE.

>> IT'S A PUNISHMENT FOR WHAT >> YEAH.

IT'S AN INDICTMENT.

AND THAT'S A LOT OF WHAT I -- I MEAN, MY FIRST REFLEX WAS JUST TO TRY TO PROCESS IT THROUGH MY THEOLOGICAL BACKGROUND AND SAY, HONESTLY RIGHT NOW I'M REALLY STRUGGLING TO EXPLAIN WHAT FEELS UNEXPLAINABLE.

HONESTLY, I CAN'T BELIEVE PEOPLE KEEP TRYING TO EXPLAIN ME AS I'M SUFFERING.

AND SO I WROTE THIS IN A PIECE FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," MOSTLY FORGETTING A LOT OF PEOPLE READ IT AND THEN NOT TAKING MY E-MAIL OFF THE RESPONSE THING, AND THEN GETTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE'S IMMEDIATE RESPONSE, WHICH I THOUGHT I'D SAID, HEY, CAN EVERYBODY SIMMER DOWN FOR A SECOND, NOT EXPLAINING OTHER PEOPLE'S PAIN.

AND EVERYONE'S RESPONSE WAS YOU MIGHT HAVE HAD SIN IN YOUR PAST LIFE, GOD IS OBVIOUSLY -- CLOSING A DOOR BUT THERE'S DEFINITELY A WINDOW SOMEWHERE THAT'S OPENING FOR YOU.

AND THEN JUST, I THINK, AND THIS FALLS ON WOMEN MOSTLY, THE ENDLESS PERFORMANCE OF CHEERFULNESS AND GRATITUDE.

ALL I WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY WAS, I'M SO BLESSED.

I'M SURE THE DOCTORS AND GOD, ET CETERA, WILL WORK IT OUT.

JUST THE SCRIPTS AROUND BEING SICK ARE THICK, THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T LEAVE ME A LOT OF ROOM FOR AMBIGUITY?

>> IS THAT WHY YOU WROTE THIS BOOK "EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON AND OTHER LIES I'VE LOVED."

I WANT TO UNPACK THAT.

EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, THAT'S THE MAIN -- >> EVERYONE WANTS TO GIVE THAT TO ME.

>> AND WHY IS THAT, FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT AS FAMILIAR WITH THIS.

BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO THINK, THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

THE UNIVERSE IS RANDOM AND CRUEL AND WHO DOESN'T KNOW THAT?

AND FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT'S ABSURD.

YOU'RE SAYING THAT'S AN UNACCEPTABLE ANSWER FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

>> THERE'S A RANGE OF PEOPLE WHO WILL GIVE YOU THAT ANSWER.

AMONG THE CHRISTIAN THERE'S A VERY LARGE GROUP I HAD STUDIED IN THAT FIRST BOOK I WROTE CALLED "THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL," WHICH HAS A RAREFIED VIEW OF WHAT FAITH IS.

IF I -- YOU'RE A SEMINARY GRAD SO IF I SAID, WHAT IS FAITH, YOU'D PROBABLY SAY HOPE OR TRUST OR SOMETHING.

AND THEIR ANSWER IS THAT FAITH IS A SPIRITUAL POWER.

THAT EVERY BELIEVER IS GIVEN.

IF THEY THINK POSITIVELY AND SPEAK POSITIVELY, YOU UNLEASH THOSE FORCES THAT BRING THINGS INTO BEING.

THEY LOOK FOR THAT IN WEALTH AND IN THEIR BODY.

IN HEALTH AND WEALTH TO FIGURE OUT IF THEIR FAITH IS WORKING.

AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT, ANY -- ANY, YOU KNOW, SETBACK IS A SETUP.

>> THERE'S A LOT OF THOSE.

>> THERE'S ONLY LESSONS.

THIS IS LIFE IS A KIND OF OBSTACLE COURSE AND IF YOU DO IT WITH CHEERFULNESS AND JOY, GOD WILL ALWAYS WORK IT OUT FOR YOU.

AND THEN THERE'S LESS OVERTLY RELIGIOUS VERSIONS LIKE ALL MY ADORABLE HIPPY FRIENDS WHO WERE IMMEDIATELY FRIENDS I HAD NOT EATEN KALE OR SUFFICIENTLY TAKEN MY ESSENTIAL OILS OR -- >> YOU ATE TOO MUCH SUGAR OR THAT RICE CRISPY TREAT.

>> IT'S THE BLAME GAME.

NOT TO BE TRITE BUT WHEN SOMEONE EXPERIENCES, THEY'RE CLOSE TO SOMEONE SUFFERING, THEY DO THAT INVENTORY.

WAS IT IN YOUR FAMILY?

I WONDER WHAT ENVIRONMENTAL REASONS THEY CAN THINK OF SO THEY'RE ALWAYS WONDERING, WHY YOU AND NOT ME?

THE RESULT IS QUITE CRUEL BECAUSE IT EXPECTS THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO LEARN FROM THIS LESSON AND SOMEHOW ACCEPT THAT THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE MY PAIN, MY SUFFERING, MY FATE.

AND ALL I WANTED WAS TO JUST REACH BACK THROUGH THAT PLEXIGLASS THAT WENT UP THE SECOND I GOT SICK AND A, ONE SECOND AGO I WAS JUST LIKE YOU.

AND THIS BLEW MY LIFE APART.

AND I WISH I COULD GO BACK TO THAT KIND OF NAIVE OPTIMISM.

>> WHY DO YOU CALL IT OTHER LIES I'VE LOVED?

>> I GUESS, HONESTLY, I WROTE THE BOOK BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO BE HONEST WITH MYSELF.

AS MUCH AS I'M SAYING, YOU KNOW, IT WAS OTHER PEOPLE.

IT WAS ME, TOO.

I MEAN, I WANTED TO FIGURE OUT, MAYBE I COULD HAVE WORKEDOMETHIG I WAS TRYING TO DO ARCHAEOLOGY.

WHAT IS IT IN THERE THAT BELIEVES LIFE WAS SUPPOSED TO WORK OUT FOR ME?

SO, I TRIED TO USE IT AS A KIND OF RECKONING FOR THE, I THINK, INDIVIDUALISM THAT I WAS ALWAYS OBSESSED WITH.

I MEAN, I THINK I -- I MIGHT NOT HAVE SAID I BELIEVE IN THE MIRATOCRACY.

I CERTAINLY PERFORMED IT.

I THOUGHT I WAS SPECIAL.

>> HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT IT'S HARD BECAUSE CANCERS MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE NOTHING.

>> WHY IS THAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO WEAR A LOT OF ROUGH COTTON.

YOU GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND YOU SEE A LOT OF DEATH.

YOU HAVE THIS FEELING LIKE YOU'RE AT THE EDGE OF THE CLIFF AND YOU'RE BEING DANGLED OVER.

AND IT MAKES YOU FEEL LIKE PAPER.

AND SO EVERYTHING IN MY RIS CHRISTIAN BACKGROUND SAYS, YOU ARE LOVED.

GOD LOVES YOU SO MUCH.

YOU ARE MADE WITH JOY AND WITH PURPOSE.

BUT THEN THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING SO NEAR DEATH AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE DYING IS YOU JUST WONDER WHAT WAS SO SPECIAL ABOUT YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SO, I THINK IT'S JUST HARD TO -- IT'S HARD TO REASSERT THAT SENSE OF BELONGING AND PURPOSE.

ESPECIALLY BEING THAT SICK, YOU GO OUT IN THE WORLD AND EVERYBODY HAS A JOB AND HAS A STARBUCKS ORDER AND YOU JUST DON'T REMEMBER WHAT YOU WERE DOING ANYMORE OR WHY YOU WERE DOING IT.

>> IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT FEELS ANGRY?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

I MEAN, I WAS LESS ANGRY FOR MYSELF.I WAS REALLY ANGRY WHEN D AT MY SON AND MY HUSBAND.

AND I THOUGHT, THIS IS -- THIS IS A VERY POOR SUBSTITUTE FOR THE LIFE THAT I PROMISED YOU.

YOU KNOW, TO MY HUSBAND WHEN I MARRIED HIM.

TO MY SON WHEN I EXPECTED THAT I WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE HIS MOM.

SO, THAT WAS THE PART THAT MADE ME THE MOST ANGRY.

AND THEN SOME OF THE OTHER ANGER JUST CAME FROM WANTING SO MUCH TO FEEL CLOSE TO PEOPLE AGAIN AND FEELING SO LONELY.

>> WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO SAY, EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON?

YOU JUST HAVE TO NAME IT AND CLAIM IT.

WELL, YOU KNOW, GOD DOESN'T GIVE YOU MORE THAN YOU CAN HANDLE.

>> YES.

>> THAT'S A CLASSIC.

WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES PEOPLE WANT TO SAY THAT?

IS THAT ABOUT THEM OR WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK PARTLY IT'S -- IT'S THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO SURRENDER THAT PART OF OUR LIVES THAT WE ALL HAVE THAT JUST WANTS TO MAKE MEANING EVEN OUT OF THE WORST MOMENTS.

AND I THINK THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL HOPE.

THE PROBLEM IS, IT'S REALLY OPPRESSIVE WHEN YOU JUST DUMP THAT ON SOMEBODY WHO MAYBE FOR REASONS OF ILLNESS OR, YOU KNOW, RANDOM TRAGEDY OR INSTITUTIONAL EVIL PUTS THEM ON THE LOSING SIDE OF LIFE.

AND SO I THINK ALSO PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING TO GET BACK TO THAT PLACE OF AGENCY WHERE YOU WANT TO STAND UP AGAIN AND FIGHT.

AND THAT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY TRYING TO MANAGE THEIR TRAGEDY.

BUT IT ALSO TOTALLY LETS THEM OFF THE HOOK BECAUSE, SURELY THE UNIVERSE HAS GIVEN YOU ALL THE RESOURCES YOU NEED TO HANDLE THIS.

>> DID YOU GROW UP IN A FAMILY THAT HAD A FAITH COMMITMENT?

>> YEAH, SUPER MENNENITE.

>> DID YOUR ILLNESS SHAKE THEM, DID IT SHAKE THEIR FAITH?

>> YOU KNOW, IN ONE WAY IT DIDN'T BECAUSE THEY'RE SO COMMUNAL.

IN THEIR MIND SET IT WAS WONDERFUL TO KNOW THAT THEY NEVER MADE ME FEEL LIKE I WAS GOING TO BE ALONE IN THIS.

THEY'RE WONDERFUL AS COMMUNAL SUFFERING.

AS A FAITH TRADITION THEY GET IT.

LIFE DOESN'T ALWAYS COME TOGETHER.

BUT I THINK LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, THEY WERE ALWAYS JUST LOOKING FOR THAT WAY THAT WE COULD CLIMB OUT OF THE PIT.

AND THERE JUST WASN'T ONE.

>> THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN I MEAN, THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN SUFFERING.

MANY OF OUR SACRED TEXTS SPEAK TO THAT FUNDAMENTAL FACT.

SO THAT LEADS ME TO WONDER, DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IN GOD?

>> YEAH, YEAH, I DO.

I MEAN, HONESTLY, IN THE HOSPITAL -- I DON'T WANT FOR THIS TO SOUND TERRIBLY PIUS.

JUST BECAUSE I'M FROM A DIVINITY SCHOOL.

WE'RE VERY UNCOMFORTABLE TALKING ABOUT OUR SPIRITUAL BELIEFS.

BUT IFSZ BLOWN AWAY BY THE FACT THAT THE CLOSER I FELT TO DEATH, THE MORE I FELT INTENSELY LOVED.

AND NOT JUST BY OTHER PEOPLE, BUT JUST A SUPREME AND BEAUTIFUL PEACE.

I'M KIND OF JUST HOPING THAT THAT'S SORT OF WHAT GOD DOES WHEN WE'RE PREPARING FOR DEATH IS WE GET THIS SENSE OF CALM.

BUT THE MORE I WENT ON LIVING, THE LOUDER LIFE BECAME AND THEN THE MORE IT WAS EASY TO FORGET.

AND THEN YOU GO BACK INTO THE WORLD AND EVERYBODY'S ON INSTAGRAM AND PEOPLE WANT THEIR BIKINI BODIES AND YOU'RE JUST EXCITED TO BE LIVING.

>> THE GUY IN THE SHORT LANE AT THE CHECKOUT ACTUALLY HAS 16 ITEMS, NOT 15.

>> I DO REMEMBER MY FIRST FEELINGS OF PETTINESS AFTER THE HOSPITAL.JUST SORT OF HOPED THED GO AWAY BUT, NO, I WAS AS PETTY AS BEFORE.

>> LET ME JUST READ SOMETHING FROM THE BOOK.

YOU SAY THAT CONTROL IS A DRUG.

AND WE'RE ALL HOOKED.

WHETHER OR NOT WE BELIEVE IN THE PROSPERITY, GOSPEL'S ASSURANCE THAT WE CAN MASTER THE FUTURE WITH OUR WORDS AND ATTITUDES.

YOU WRITE, I CAN BARELY ADMIT TO MYSELF I HAVE ALMOST NO CHOICE BUT TO SURRENDER BUT NEITHER CAN THOSE AROUND ME.

I CAN HEAR IT IN MY SISTER-IN-LAW'S VOICE, I CAN SEE MY ACADEMIC COLLEAGUES.

THEY ASK, IS THIS HEREDITARY.

BURIED IN ALL THE CONCERN IS THE UNSPOKEN QUESTION, DO I HAVE ANY CONTROL?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> WHAT ANSWER HAVE YOU COME UP WITH?>> IT'S SO HARD BECAUSE I D TO USE FAITH AS A LANGUAGE OF CERTAINTY.

GIVING THAT UP HAS BEEN TOUGH WORK.GUESS, I MEAN, I JUST PICTD MY LIFE AS ONE THAT I COULD CONTROL.I WOULD HAVE A LONG CARH A NEOGOTHIC TOWER.

JUST THESE DREAMS OF WHAT -- SUPPOSED TO DO.

AND I NEVER IMAGINED THAT I WOULD HAVE A HORIZON IN WHICH I CAN'T BE CERTAIN.

IT'S HARD JUST WITH PARENTING BECAUSE EVERYTHING ABOUT A KID .

IT'S THE GROWTH CHART AGAINST THE DOORSILL.

IT'S WHAT'S NEXT AND SHOULD HE BE IN SOCCER.

YOU JUST WANT TO SPEAK THAT LANGUAGE WITH SUCH CERTAINTY BECAUSE IT'S ALL THE STUFF THAT AND GIVING THAT UP HAS BEENNFUL.

LIKE, IT'S -- IT'S MOSTLY SUCKED BECAUSE SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE THE FUTURE IS JUST A LANGUAGE I CAN'T SPEAK LIKE OTHER PEOPLE.

>> CAN I ASK, THOUGH, AND APOLOGIES IF IT'S TOO PERSONAL, HOW ARE YOU PREPARING?

I MEAN, THE REALITY OF IT IS, AND IT SOUNDS SO TERRIBLE, BUT IT IS TRUE, THAT WE'RE ALL GOING TO LEAVE HERE AT SOME POINT, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT MOST OF US SPEND TIME THINKING ABOUT.

>> HOW ARE YOU -- >> WELL, IT'S -- >> -- PREPARING OR DO YOU TRUE NOT TO?

DO YOU TRY LIVING AS YOU PUT IT IN ORDINARY TIME?

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

>> BECAUSE IT'S A BOTH -- I MEAN, THE PROBLEM IS, I THINK MAYBE JUST IN THE COURSE OF THE DAY AND THE WEEK AND THE YEAR WE'RE ALL RUNNING THE MATH ON WHAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO.

LIKE EVERY DECISION REQUIRES A LOT OF JUST DECISIONS ABOUT INVESTMENT.

DO I REALLY -- HOW DO WE SPEND OUR TIME?

I STRUGGLE ADD LOT WITH THAT BECAUSE, A, I'M IN A CAREER THAT WHILE I WAS IN THE HOSPITAL, I HAD TO DECIDE IF I WAS GOING TO WRITE A BOOK TO KEEP A JOB I DIDN'T KNOW I'D LIVE TO KEEP.

I HAD TO DECIDE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, DO I ACT LIKE I'M I'M GOING TO DIE?DO I ACT LIKE AND I WANT TO BE ABLE TO LIVE SOLELY IN THE PRESENT BE BUT I SORT OF HAVE A JOB TO DO.

SO, I STRUGGLED A LOT WITH THAT.

THEN I DECIDED THAT I HAVE TO CHOOSE THE PARTS OF MYSELF THAT FULLY EXPRESS WHATEVER GIFTS I HAVE TO GIVE.

HISTORIAN, AS BORING AS IT IS, SO I DECIDED THAT PART OF MANAGING CANCER WOULD BE THAT I WOULD WORK REALLY HARD AND WRITE A NEW BOOK AND THAT I WOULD SECTION OFF A HUGE PART OF MY DAY JUST TO BE WITH MY KID AND THE PEOPLE I LOVE.

AND THAT I WOULD HAVE TO JUST KEEP PUTTING ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER.

BUT, I MEAN, I STRUGGLED A LOT WITH WHETHER OR NOT -- I MEAN, I THINK WE ALL DO.

LIKE, IS THIS WORTH MY TIME?

IS THIS WORTH MY LIFE?

>> YOU EXPRESS QUITE A LOT OF DOUBT IN THIS BOOK.

YOUR BOOK IS HILARIOUS.

DON'T GET ME WRONG.

BUT IT'S -- IT'S FILLED WITH DOUBT THAT THE CERTAINTIES THAT SO MANY PEOPLE CLING TO ARE NOT THAT THAT.

AND SOME PEOPLE WILL NOT APPRECIATE THAT.

AND I WONDER WHAT THAT'S LIKE FOR YOU ARE IN A WORLD THAT TEACHES THE DIVINE, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

WELL, I'M HOPEFUL -- >> CAN YOU STILL DO -- >> YEAH.

>> -- YOUR JOB?

>> IT'S SUCH A FUN QUESTION BECAUSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BE EXPERTS IN CERTAINTY IF WE'RE PEOPLE OF FAITH?

AND I REALLY HOPE NOT.

I MEAN, I -- I LIKE TO IMAGINE THAT MY STUDENTS AT THE DIVINITY SCHOOL WHO ARE MOSTLY GOING TO BE PASTORS OR NONPROFIT WORKERS OR CASSEROLE BURNERS OF ALL KINDS, MY HOPE IS THAT SINCE THEY'RE THE FRONT LINES, OTHER THAN DOCTORS AT THE PLACES PEOPLE GO WHEN THEY'RE IN PAIN, THAT THEY WILL BE THE THING THAT HOLDS SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO AND WE NEED OTHER PEOPLE.

I MEAN, THAT WAS A MASSIVE LESSON TO ME THE SECOND I WAS IN THE HOSPITAL.

I DON'T HAVE FAMILY HERE IN THE STATES.

I ONLY HAVE MY UNIVERSITY, REALLY.

AND I -- I'VE JUST BEEN SO -- I MEAN, SO NEEDY.

MY CHURCH AND MY COMMUNITY FED MY FAMILY FOR OVER A YEAR.

I MEAN, WE JUST NEED EVERYONE TO FILL IN ALL THE GAPS.

AND SO, PART OF LETTING GO OF CERTAINTY HAS LED ME TO A REAL HUMILITY A HOPE THAT SAYS, I'M ACTUALLY NOT THE RIGHT PERSON TO SAY THAT EVERYTHING'S GOING TO TURN OUT, BUT I HOPE THAT MY EXPERIENCE POINTS TO THE FACT THAT KINDNESS AND LOVE IS ALWAYS THE WAY FORWARD, BECAUSE PAIN CREATES THIS HORRIBLE GAP THAT EVERYONE WANTS TO EXPLAIN.

BUT ALL THAT DOES TO ME IS SAY THAT EVERYONE ELSE NEEDS TO STEP IN WITH THE KIND OF KINDNESS THAT -- THAT PUTS PEOPLE'S LIVES BACK TOGETHER.

AND MY STUFF IS MOSTLY IRREPRABLE BUT I COULD USE A CASSEROLE.

>> WHAT KIND DO YOU LIKE?

>> I'LL DO TUNA.

>> KATE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

I HAVE EVERY GOOD WISH FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AND THAT YOU GET A REALLY GOOD CASSEROLE.

>>I'LL TAKE IT.