From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour could be made under the area currently occupied by the northern part of the Inner Loop.

As reported by Brian Sharp earlier this year, plans to remove the remaining stretch of the highway got a boost when Senator Chuck Schumer announced a $100 million federal grant to push the $223 million project forward.

Critics of the Inner Loop have praised the forthcoming plans and At Grade Boulevard as a way to reunify parts of the city and create developable space.

Housing and businesses could occupy the new space, and those buildings could be heated and cooled by geothermal energy.

Geothermal uses a network of underground wells to utilize heat from the Earth's core to provide heating and cooling power to more climate friendly solution than fossil fuels, and according to reporting from our colleague Gino Fanelli.

If approved, the project would rival the largest geothermal systems of its type in the state.

But could it work?

Rochester City Council recently approved funding for a study to determine the potential power of a geothermal project for the area.

And this hour, we're talking through what the work would entail.

The cost and the benefits, and, if approved, what the project would mean for developing the area.

I'd like to welcome our guest.

My colleague Gina Fanelli is with us here.

Investigations and City Hall reporter for news.

Always good.

Thanks for being here.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

And on the line with us is Mitch Gruber, member of Rochester City Council.

Council member Gruber, welcome back to the program.

Thanks for having me.

John Disanto is with us in studio, general manager of Rochester District Heating Cooperative.

John, what is the Rochester District Heating Cooperative, by the way?

We are a steam district cooperative.

we have a building on the east side of the city with five industrial boilers.

Originally, it was a charging facility we purchased from our Jeanie in 1985 and formed a nonprofit, member owned cooperative.

And so we've been supplying steam to 50 buildings in the city of Rochester through a network of about nine miles of pipeline, superheated steam.

So these these buildings essentially do not need boilers.

they can connect up to our system, new buildings can connect up, the existing ones can use it.

we we supply steam 24 seven all year round, predominantly for heating in the winter, but also domestic hot water, commercial hot water, food preparation, humidification process clothes.

Purdue.

Versatile use.

All right.

Well, thank you for being here, John.

And next to John is Ryan McCauley, chief financial officer for Rochester District Heating Cooperative.

Thank you for being here as well.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

And Bill Co is vice president of Emcor services Bethlehem.

Hi Bill.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me.

Tell us about what you do.

So, core services Bethlehem is, company in Rochester.

We've been around since 1923, and we're mainly a mechanical contracting firm.

we focus, a lot on design, build construction projects.

And we've been partnering with John and his team for several years, looking at ways to reduce, carbon emissions, improve energy costs and, help improve, cost for customers within Rochester.

so, as part of our what we're discussing today, we've been working with John to look at different ways to develop Rochester District heat and, take it to the next level and decarbonize and lower energy costs for the community.

So, Gina, I want you to take us through a little bit of your recent report and kind of set the stage.

The first thing that came to mind for me was we talked a lot about geothermal over the years on this program.

Always a lot of interest from listeners.

and for some people, depending on the lot size or what your living arrangement is like geothermal, maybe viable, maybe a struggle.

I mean, I'm sure it's getting better all the time about reaching people, but it's a totally different thing when you've got a blank canvas, when you're filling an inner loop, it feels like a very different kind of opportunity.

So take us through.

What were some of your recent reporting on this?

Yeah.

So, this is like the first the study that was approved that the First Nation step in figuring out it, this will work as a base for, any kind of development that happened on the inner loop that they could kind of tap into this geothermal heating and cooling network, that could be built on the site.

So I think right now it's it's the study is intended to explore whether this is a viable option for the feasibility study.

I think the bigger picture here is, when you look at what's happening across the state with some of the, the state rules that are coming into effect on, all electric buildings which have, deadlines in 2026 and 2029. and just the history of the inner loop itself at the time that that urban highway system was built, the highway infrastructure in America was this was the cutting edge that having these kind of highway networks through urban areas was something that was deemed what was going to put us into the future.

And now we kind of recognize some of the faults of that, that it did separate neighborhoods.

It did take away a lot of developable land.

There's a lot of things that that, that that highway being there affected the nature of Rochester for many, many years.

So as we're looking at filling it in and returning it to city land that can be developed on, I think this is one of those ideas that could future proof that for decades to come, this will be something that, is reliable.

It's there.

And, it puts us as what the next phase of development in Rochester will look like.

Yeah.

So it was in 2014, my first year hosting the show, that, I think it was Jim McIntosh.

Little Mitchell, correct me if I'm wrong, Jim McIntyre, the city engineer for the city of Rochester, was talking to us about, you know, what the steps are.

McIntosh.

Thank you.

Mitch.

you know, filling the eastern third of the inner loop.

And someone called this program to say, I can't believe the city is doing this.

I love using the inner loop, and I'm always the only one on it.

And I thought that's actually the an argument for filling the inner loop here.

So the eastern third fills.

We know this is a project that takes time.

but I want to ask Council Member Gruber about this, and I want to outmatch a little bit in a certain way here.

Council Member Gruber and I have talked a number of times over the years about the importance of, yes, doing your due diligence, studying, but also don't tie yourself up so much that you don't build something.

And I know that matters to you.

We're going to talk to Mitch, among other people, about a popular new book called abundance on the program.

Sometime in the weeks to come.

But with that lens, Mitch, how do you look at what has to be studied, what still has to be considered and say, we're going to do that?

But if we decide we're going for this, you know, we're not going to get bogged down and and talk again in ten years from now, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, the the study that we're talking about here is, is perfect timing.

I do I am oftentimes critical of studies that seem like they're kicking the can, but there's also studies that are done to be sure that you can actually be prepared.

And in this case, we are planning we are doing this study for geothermal now that it's approved by council.

And I'll let John and his team talk a little bit about the larger breadth of the study, but the timing should align pretty perfectly that we will know what's doable, what's viable and what's not when it comes to geothermal, right around the time that we're getting ready to put shovels in the ground for the North.

So the timing is perfect.

And this is not a study to collect, just this is the study to act and move.

What does that timeline in your mind look like right now?

Council Member Gruber.

Well, if you had asked me six months ago, I would be able to to say with more clarity, but, you know, there's there's a lot of federal funding tied, tied up in some in what we're expecting to to need to, to do the demolition of the inner loop.

but there's always been a goal that there will be some real action, some real shovels in the ground in 2027, maybe 2028.

And that still feels like what?

Like what we're shooting for.

Okay.

and, you know, I think you're reporting I've got a number here.

43 total acres of development here at Sunray.

Different, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

so, before I talk to our other guests in studio, you know, as you kind of survey what people are saying about this, we're going to get their perspective.

And I'm sure they're very interested in this.

If you see any opposition to this, do you know, finally, I mean, I think it's more, the inner loop as a whole.

There still are people that are holdouts, like, don't fill in their loop north.

I still use it.

And, I'll get that phone call us.

Yeah.

Which, by the way, I still use it.

It's fine if you use it.

I'm not, like making fun of people.

Use it?

Yeah.

I mean, I think there's always one with especially.

This is one of the largest development projects that Rochester has undergone in decades.

this is a huge undertaking.

and there's always going to be people that are going to be like, well, why are we doing this?

The same thing when they did it and moved south, and did it really change the entire culture of Rochester and accessibility of getting around the city?

Not really.

And now you have like an area that's, you know, it's fairly vibrant.

so I think there is still that kind of, for lack of a better term, reactionary thing to it of like, we don't want to change this, but that's the main opposition.

I hear it to projects like that.

There's now like a hardcore anti geothermal.

It's like it's the general okay.

Go ahead.

Council member Gruber, you want to add to that.

Yep.

Yeah.

The one thing I just want to add I always like to, to bring some broader context to our conversations in Rochester.

But some of these big federal dollars to tear down, urban highways we're talking about for the cities to the east and west of us to and I please don't, don't assume that I know all the details of what happens in other cities, but my sense is that the I-81 project in Syracuse is moving forward.

But the Kensington Highway project in Buffalo, I believe, is paused or maybe even dead at this point.

there has been pushback in other communities around things like this.

And I think Buffalo is a great example in all of North right now, the biggest debates are about what the final product will look like, not whether it should happen or not.

Oh, okay.

Fair enough.

But Councilman, if you're looking at federal dollars to support this, is there anything that's come out of Washington in the last several months that makes you think, we better do it now, or I don't know if we can plan for this.

Anything like that.

Yeah, everything.

Let me let every everything is like that.

But at the end of the day, again, we're not we're not waiting.

We're not waiting to do it, to twiddle our thumbs.

There is a ton of, pre-development work that needs to be done that's being done as we speak.

There's, right, right now the there's some traffic studies that are being, finalized.

And, all of this kind of community engagement has to be done in, in real, you know, thoughtful steps.

We're in the process of that.

We can't move it much faster than how it's going right now.

All right.

So let's ask our guests in studio more about how this would work.

And, let me start with John, if I could.

John's general manager of Rochester District Heating Cooperative, and, our guests will kind of share their various insights on this.

But when when we look at a project like this, it still feels pretty abstract.

Take me to 2018, 2029, 2030.

What are we looking at?

What's actually happened?

Well, so the goal is to implement a project like this, prove that it works, and then replicate it.

So, you know, if we look at the inner loop, east is what I call it, the green or you call the South.

I was a skeptical of that project until I saw it happen, and I saw the development happen so quick.

Now, the inner Loop North.

when we heard about this project, one of the first things I did was called Bill and said, hey, Bill, what about a project for, Inner Loop North geothermal or sewer heat recovery or some type of clean energy project?

And we started to talk a little bit about it.

And so, you know, this really has some merit.

And the timing could really, be in parallel with the city's project.

at that point, we met with the city, the city's engineer, the county, city legal and a bunch of other people and just had, idea sharing, session with them about what we were thinking and get their ideas on, whether they thought it was interesting or not.

And everybody was very excited about it.

so the scoping study is, as you know, articulated, will tell us whether or not the project is viable.

And if it is, and through the phases we get, go decisions, then we could get into design and hopefully eventually construction.

But again, the real goal is to deliver a community wide geothermal project or clean energy project to see that it works and replicate it through other places the city, the state, the country, even.

Okay, you want to add to that, Ryan?

Yeah, I think, you know, in looking at the history of Rochester district heating, we are a community based utility.

so I think John mentioned we are currently serving 50 members, ranges from, you know, churches to, I mean, mixed use.

We have a lot of municipal buildings.

We're looking at taking some of those concepts and applying that to this project.

So trying to serve the new buildings that will be being built.

So I under the understanding that it's going to be a lot of the same, you know, mixed use smaller buildings, but all of those buildings are going to need some form of heat.

and after January 1st of 2027, it's going to have to be all electric based, you know, 2026.

Oh, sorry, a year earlier.

So, so it's really, you know, trying to take the concepts that we've had and range over the last four years.

we're a nonprofit, so everything that we do is really for our members, everything that we do, you know, from a project standpoint, from a financial standpoint, it's really to make sure that we are able to provide our members with heat.

so we're hoping to do the same in this project.

Okay.

Bill, you want to add to that?

Yeah.

I think, one of the biggest points to make is the, Inner Loop North project is, great opportunity because the buildings haven't been put in yet.

this isn't the first time that we've partnered together to look at a feasibility study for a community heat pump alternative within the city of Rochester.

in 2021, we took advantage of, Nyserda funding to evaluate what led to a sewer heat recovery system.

in a section of the city, underneath Broad Street and using the Broad Street Tunnel.

And one of the biggest stumbling blocks to that project was the fact that all of the buildings in the area were existing already.

So we were going to recover heat from the sewer system and then take this heat that wasn't designed to be used within the existing buildings and then try to convert it.

to be able to heat the buildings that were already in place.

So the cost, as we were evaluating that kept going up, because in addition to the main infrastructure items that needed to be installed in the city, we needed to retrofit existing buildings, that weren't really designed around using the heat that we had or the energy that we had.

So, part of the reason for investigating the Inner Loop North project was that it was still in conceptual phase.

so if we're able to get that infrastructure in place, before the buildings go up, now we can design the buildings around using the heat that we can provide to each one.

And a key point of getting this started is actually getting that initial infrastructure in place.

Once we get that in place to then we can expand upon it.

And it's very easy to expand, to different areas of the city.

And before we know it, we could have a network geothermal system, that many people could use.

So, I already have a few emails and I'm going to read some of those questions in just a second.

I see the phone ringing.

Listeners, if you want to, Colin, with questions, comments on geothermal, especially as we talk about the Inner Loop North.

But generally, if you've got questions in this area, that's a good time to get them in.

It's 844295 talk.

That's toll free 84429582552636.

If you call from Rochester 2639994, you can email the program connections at KCI.

Dawg.

If you're watching on the screen nine news YouTube channel, you can join the chat there and we'll work on your questions.

Tom wants to know if the Trump administration pulls funding.

Would the City of Rochester still pay for this kind of project?

that's a big one.

Mitch Gruber, member of city council.

What do you think?

Well, we have we have lots of different funding sources, right now, and I don't have all the all the dollars and cents in front of me.

So I can't say with certainty.

But if we get if we get significant dollars cut from anything, that's what the city's going to have to reassess all the major projects in front of us.

And that's part of what the upcoming budget process is about.

We'll, the city's budget will be proposed, but will be announced next month.

We have a month.

We have a week of budget hearings, and this will come up several times.

Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciate Tom's question, but the amount of uncertainty is it's not just about the North project.

It's going to be in a lot of different directions here.

Andrew Juneau, forgive me.

Is there a price tag that we know here?

on this particular set of projects, maybe the gentleman in the room can help with that for for Inner Loop North and the whole, well, as a whole or with the geothermal project as a whole, is about $220 million.

That's, for geothermal.

And correct me if I'm wrong, it's still the feasibility study.

So they would still be figuring out, like, okay, yeah, you know, is absolutely correct.

this was a feasibility study, will have five different tasks that will go through.

We've got an idea.

We got to turn that idea into a concept.

Once we have the concept, we can start to collect data and analyze, the amount of energy that's available and the intended use of the, the new parcels, do an energy analysis of the expected buildings and also do an economic analysis.

And that economic analysis is going to evaluate the total cost of the project, the lifecycle cost of the project.

And it's also going to look at how do we build this project.

It's likely that a project like this will be funded through equity investors, and then that debt will become part of the energy rate that will be shared amongst the the users of the geothermal energy.

So how much impact will federal administrative changes have in their context?

Probably not a lot because it's going to be done more privately than through public funds.

As we get into the design and development, construction.

let me continue with some of the questions and comments.

And Gladys in Rochester is on the phone.

Hi, Gladys.

Go ahead.

Hi.

Thank you.

Very interesting subject.

I'm just, my question is, how will this study, or will it have any impact on.

Oh, it sounds like it's just regarding buildings.

Is that the only thing that it's focusing on?

Because I know there's a big concern about rebuilding the neighborhoods that were torn down to build the inner loop and trying to rebuild those.

Yeah.

So, Gladys, I appreciate that.

Thank you.

you know, you want to start by addressing that or is there maybe a better, person at the table that can can I, Council member Gruber.

Good luck.

There you go.

Thanks.

And and.

Hi, Gladys.

Thanks.

Thanks for the question.

Gladys and I have talked about this a lot.

Gladys is doing some great advocacy, in the market, New Heights neighborhood.

the study we're talking about here is, is regardless of what the design of the inner loop North is going to look like, which, as I said before, is still the thing that there's some, contention about and some and some, ideas and consensus building that has to be done.

This is just about what we do when the ground is open and we're able to, this is assessing whether or not we can make geothermal a reality for whatever kind of buildings come residential, commercial, anything of that nature.

And it really does not impact, what the design above the ground is going to be.

I just I want to clarify that in the non-technical terms and in his team can be a little bit more technical about it as well.

Okay.

and gentleman in studio, you want to add to the council member's point there?

I agree with the council member, Gruber, having this project run in parallel with the Inner Loop North infill project prior to the buildings being constructed, is the perfect opportunity to get that infrastructure into the ground.

and that enable that development, redevelopment of those parcels.

as, Gino had mentioned earlier, and Ryan had also mentioned, January 1st of 2026, the all electric Buildings Act takes effect.

If you're building any building at seven stories or less.

And there are a few exceptions to this, but seven storeys or less, including residential homes, they have to be built totally electric.

one exception being emergency backup power.

doing putting this infrastructure in place prior to those developments happening in the inner north area, will facilitate that.

It'll promote that development.

Yeah.

Just, to.

Oh, sorry.

Go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to say, really, this project is meant to be, you know, proof of concept.

So if it's shown to be successful, if it goes through with it, then it can be replicated in other parts of the city.

So it would it would help with other development that would be done in this.

Let me just follow this, for I know Gina's a guy.

I just want to make sure I understand something and this is going to be very ignorant.

But that's why we're doing this program.

So you're going to replicate this in other parts of the city.

If this is successful, you can't.

You could.

It could be.

Yeah.

It's a proof of concept.

It could.

But isn't this much easier to do because you do have this kind of big opening now where this project, it's going to be used as opposed to retrofitting existing infrastructure.

We kind of have a blank canvas right now.

Yeah.

We don't have existing buildings.

You don't have roads.

so like as Bill mentioned, it's a lot easier to put pipe in the ground when you don't have to tear things up, but to the, you know, kind of the concept of having a community geothermal project.

that piece of it, it could be replicated elsewhere.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I just wanted to speak to the point that, you know, one of the reasons that the new project is happening is the longstanding criticism that it did divide the neighborhood.

That's right.

It did remove, again, 46 acres or 43 acres of developable land.

that was a neighborhood and turned it into I've heard the term most use pretty often referred to the inner loop.

But I mean, that was many decades ago.

And what is it going to be now?

I, I tried to get into, in the reporting that it is really a blank slate.

It could be houses, it could be highrises, it could be an entertainment district, it could be businesses, it could be a mix of all, all of those things.

So it's it is so up in the air.

And so just, not determinable right now of what actually going to be developable there.

So, I think that's like this is one of those things that like, okay, whatever is going there to this point will be able to be based on this system if it is feasible.

Yeah.

What, what the gentlemen in the room are here.

Yeah.

Go ahead, go ahead.

Mitch.

Yeah.

Thank you.

So sorry.

It's it's strange to not be in studio.

That's okay.

It's okay.

My apologies.

you know, I think there will hopefully be lots of time for us to have bigger conversations about Inner Loop North in general, which I think is the root of Gladys.

This question, and I'm sure some of the other questions around what happens is federal funding and there's people at the city.

David Riley is project managing this.

I'm sure David would be the right person to bring on and have a deeper conversation.

I really want to just focus for a second back on the, on the geothermal and just maybe provide a little bit of context that I don't think was given before, at least this is this is the context that was important for me.

We know right now that roster gas and electric is failing this community in a number of ways.

we've seen it with billing challenges.

We've seen it with rate, with rate, increases over the years.

And there's been so many different conversations around what are the things that we can do to actually address this virtual monopoly that doesn't seem to be regulated very heavily by the entity that's supposed to regulate them, which is the Public Service Commission at the state level.

And that that question of what do we do to at least start to think about other options besides just hoping that our genie gets gutter?

led me to your district heating, and I really just gave a very brief overview, but I can't begin to describe enough how impressive it is.

What roster district heating does, just in terms of their core business right now, and providing steam to so many different downtown buildings and tenants.

But my conversations with them ultimately led to more conversations.

I do want to shout out kind of legislators to Sue Smith, who also, was one of the people to lead me towards thinking about thermal geothermal.

And the next thing I knew, there was this perfect alignment because, the folks at Rachel already started to look at geothermal at the inner loop, and we were just able to provide some of the remaining dollars.

But inner loop design aside, this is a one of a kind opportunity to really create big, significant energy infrastructure that is not dependent upon our genie.

And it.

That's a really remarkable thing.

citizen, a little bit of that in terms of building some, some solar, out in the northwest part of our city and hopefully we'll be doing more of that and there'll be more announcements around that in the coming in the coming months.

But this is less about the design of the inner loop and more about creating real utility infrastructure that we don't otherwise have many opportunities to develop.

Well, and let me get another phone call from someone who has joined us in the past here, someone who I think spends a lot of time on where the eastern third of the inner loop used to be.

Richard in Rochester, next on the phone.

Hi, Richard.

Go ahead.

Yes, Mitch Gruber's fabulous visionary, view of our energy needs is just so exciting to to hear.

But as you, technicians plan to present what the potentials could be for the geothermal, please bear in mind that, the 45 acres of the inner loop, area won't all be available for building.

So as you.

Although the entire area will be available for geothermal installation as you work up a pro forma for what the buildings and uses might be there and how many, how much demand that would create, realize that there very likely is going to be a boulevard for part of that space to replace the the loop, reducing the developable area to something in the 30 acre area, not 40 or 45 acres at all.

But good luck to you because it sounds like a very exciting step forward for Rochester.

Well, thank you.

Richard and I met Richard over at Ugly Duck, where I may have to stop later today, and every time I'm over there, I look around.

Well, not actually, I don't do this anymore.

I for a while I did.

For a while I thought, boy, you can't even see in my mind where the inner loop used to be.

I mean, it's just it's a different thing and you get used to the development.

So what seemed like it would take forever.

Ten years ago, when we were talking about it is now just a regular part of life.

So what themes seems theoretical?

is going to happen in one way or another and you know, Mitch, he's making a point just about, you know, boulevards and total acreage there.

But anything you want to add there to the point that, that Richard is making about this opportunity, I mean, he's, he's looking at it most of the time where he lives on, on a space that is already done.

And, you know, people aren't aren't wondering over there anymore.

Anything you want to add there, Mitch?

Yeah.

No.

Not really.

I mean, I think the the technical side of this, which I, which is what Richard wants to get into, is, you know, I'm, I'm no technical expert, but I want I want to go back again to to Gladys.

This question this is about the conversation about design of the in the loop is very different from the conversation of should we be building this really significant energy infrastructure when we have the chance to?

I can't in some ways.

I can't really believe that Inner Loop East, we didn't do geothermal.

I was not on city council at the time.

I'm not saying that if I was, I would have thought about it.

And either because I was in a different space with what geothermal capabilities are.

But if we have the chance to build that infrastructure that we got to take advantage of it.

So is it fair to say, Bill John Ryan, that no matter what gets decided for what will live on the site of where in all of North is the geothermal would would have utility no matter what happens on on the surface.

Yes yes yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I think, just adding the geothermal as an option for whatever type of development happens on the inner Loop North would be beneficial to attracting people that want to want to invest there, that want to build homes or mixed use retail or whatever ends up being, and taking advantage of the open space just adds to the capacity and the ability to expand.

So, go ahead.

And I think a very important part of this is that we're going to go through the scoping study in close collaboration with the city of Rochester, so that we understand exactly what their, mindset is as they determine how they want these parcels to be developed, including when developers come to them and say, hey, how about this?

And we'll continually incorporate that into the study to look at how our system can promote that development.

And it may not be 43 acres and it may not be seven story buildings, but our study will adapt to that.

And at the end, when we have our final, report, it will take that all into account.

All right.

I've got a number of questions that have come in that I will get on the other side of this here.

George, Joel, Tim.

Angela, your questions will get on the other side of this break.

You just heard John Juliano, who is general manager of Rochester District Heating Cooperative.

Ryan McCauley is their chief financial officer.

He's with us.

Bill Co, vice president of Emcor services, Bethlehem Mitch Gruber on the line with us, member of Rochester City Council and my colleague Gino Fanelli, and the investigations and City hall reporter for Sky news, whose reporting has helped to put together this conversation that we're having today and the possibility of a geothermal network on the side of the old.

It's the existing inner loop.

Soon it'll be the old inner loop.

So that's what we're talking about.

Your questions on the other side of this only break of the hour.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Thursday, on the next connections, we sit down with the president of the Rochester City School Board.

Camille Simmons will be with us in studio for a conversation about a wide range of topics related to the district, starting with the hiring of a new superintendent.

It was a process that had some controversy and some internal squabbles among the board.

But they are moving forward, and we're going to talk to the president of the board about that and more.

Thursday.

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This is connections I'm Evan Dawson number of questions and comments that are related to each other about geothermal.

And I'm going to get to that set in a second.

Let me just get one for Council member Gruber.

That comes from Tim.

We had Tom earlier.

This is Tim.

Tim says I hope geothermal doesn't slow down the fall interlude project.

It has been years.

So, Council Member Gruber, what would you say to Tim this this study will not slow down the process whatsoever.

There are lots of other studies that are keeping the process, from from happening as quickly may once again, right now I know the one that's, that is, outstanding.

is a is a traffic study.

These things take time.

We have to get it right.

there's a lot of other studies around the actual development, the pre-development work, the environmental.

There's so many different studies that will come with this.

The geothermal piece will not slow this down one iota.

All right, Tim, thank you.

So three questions are or comments that are sort of related here.

First of all, Joel says you can put geothermal under the road or under a park or behind any buildings, but it could also help to supply energy to the surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, he's talking about the inner Loop North and the eventual filling of it in and what could happen there.

So we'll talk about that.

Related to that.

Angela wants to know, do your guests do home geothermal projects?

And George wants to know, has the cost of geothermal been going down?

So all related here, we're going to go around the table.

Bill, you want to start?

Yeah.

I don't think any of us at the table do home geothermal projects.

We're looking at large scale geothermal networks.

so in this case, if we if we're able to get the infrastructure in place and justified by a large scale project, the ability to connect to a single family home may come out of it.

And that'll be part of the feasibility study.

Okay.

John.

Ryan, do you want to add there?

Yeah.

I'm just going to say that you look at geothermal now and at the cost, and I look at it as kind of a a boutique option that for the individual homeowner, it's probably not economical.

But when you look at it on a larger scale, I think it would be, you know, like a better project, a better option if we're looking at it on a financial standpoint.

at the moment it is more economical to use natural gas, but we're predicting that after January 2026, it's going to kind of, you know, inverse that the accessibility and the price of geothermal will, probably be more favorable because, at least in New York State, it's going to be more of a priority to try to shift over to electric methods.

Okay, John, anything you want to add there?

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Council member Gruber.

Yep.

Can I can I ask the folks from and and, and Bill as well just to talk about it for the listeners and frankly, for my edification to like the difference between geothermal and individual residential and the idea of a thermal energy network and how what actually happens underground with a network, I think that'll be useful for folks to hear.

Yeah, I can I can take this one.

Yeah.

So for an individual, homeowner, when they're looking at a geothermal, a lot of it has to do with, the footprint of the plot where the house is, and what type of geothermal options that they have.

geothermal is really a thermal battery.

So, what we want to do is we want to take it out of the ground and use that to heat the building in the winter time.

And then during the summertime, we want to take the heat, that were were taking out of the house to air conditioned the home and put it back into the ground and reusing it.

And it's really a way to increase efficiencies from typical heating and cooling solutions.

so when we're when we're looking at that thermal battery, finding enough space or enough land is key.

so for a single family or a single family home, we either have a field, or a well that could be used, to store that energy and use it.

so the cost of putting that field in or that, well, really increases the overall cost of putting a system into place.

A lot of that's offset by local, state, federal incentives, that you can use to help justify it over time.

you still need a lot of systems will need to use electricity, to be able to, heat and cool the home.

so for the typical homeowner, it's it's not always, very economical.

even with the incentives that are out there right now, as Ryan mentioned, it being a kind of a boutique option with the with the system that we're talking about.

we're not just looking at, you know, one investor, one home that's going to be using, a single, source of geothermal.

We're looking at using, multiple buildings.

They may have very different use types.

They may have different heat loads.

They may have different cooling loads that operate at different times.

So networking, all of these different types of buildings that are using heat rather than just, distribute this, discharging that into the atmosphere, we can share that amongst the buildings.

So when and we as well as we can share that upfront cost, to install the initial infrastructure to use it.

So our efficiencies go up in a network system because when we're cooling our building, our, our neighbor might be heating.

So rather than, just discharging that energy where we're sending it over to our neighbor so our efficiencies will go up, our cost to do the initial infrastructure go up, which I'll make more sense economically to do a networked system rather than just a single family home.

And like, I believe it's a water based system, right, bill?

Yes.

Water is a method to deliver the heat and take it.

So it is a economies of scale.

the question really didn't define whether or not we were looking at an individual.

residence and putting geothermal in for that residents or connecting up that individual residents to this community geothermal system.

for the latter, there may be some possibility there, and I sure hope there is to expand it and pick up buildings in the existing buildings in the proximity of the system that we're hoping to create.

can you add a little bit, by the way, Council Member, does that answer most of what you wanted to hear?

There?

Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm hoping that it helps to answer some things for, for the listeners too.

But there is something very different about, you know, going really deep into the ground vertically on a small individual city lot versus is having the opportunity to have, again, the ground opened up.

And building this infrastructure that to the person's question must in my opinion, the study has to come back and say this isn't only going to help businesses or homes on the inner loop, but there is opportunity for adjacent neighborhoods to also be able to tap into this.

That may require additional work or cost, but that's what we need to get to.

And I just want to point out before, the folks were talking about this being a model, and you may say to yourself, Evan, well, you know, where else will city be able to do this?

But think about how much property the city, the city and the county own in parts of downtown with huge parking garages, gigantic places like the convention center and city hall and all these big buildings that that the municipality owns, you could theoretically build really interesting thermal energy networks underneath where existing buildings are.

We see that happening a little bit on college campuses.

Again, are places where there's one owner of lots and lots of property building these thermal energy networks underground.

That's a huge opportunity for us.

But the inner loop growth is the best chance to learn about it, study it and get it right.

So a couple things there.

Council member yeah, I definitely take the point on college campuses, but, you know, there's a lot of open space on college campuses, maybe a little easier to maneuver around.

and maybe this is a question for our guests in the studio here, but, the that's it's a different kettle of fish when you've got, you know, a convention center or existing buildings, or maybe, gentlemen studio.

Maybe it isn't.

Maybe the retrofitting is way more viable than my small non-tech addled brain can can conceive of here.

So how much can get done here if this ends up being viable?

This is successful.

The proof of concept is there.

How difficult it is.

Is it to go to existing infrastructure, the kind of council members talking about?

and or maybe how easy is that to do that?

Brian, you want to start?

John.

Yeah, I think, you know, part of that might come out when we do our feasibility study.

When you look at the costs of, you know, drilling wells and you know how much energy is in the wells, you know, just the cost of laying pipe.

I mean, we have 40 years of experience in the steam business.

we know roughly per foot how much it's going to cost to, you know, hook up a building.

But I think we're looking at geothermal.

It's it's going to be kind of a different animal.

Okay.

and council member, the other thing before I jump back to our phone calls is, when you say that you want to see a study that gives you an answer on whether this will benefit, not just whatever goes on the old inner loop, but also existing neighborhoods and, that there's a spillover effect.

Is that what you expect to see, given what you've already maybe other studies that are out there, or is that still an open question?

or is it pretty well settled that you think that we'll be able to go in that direction much?

I want to see what the what the study said, but I'll just I'll tell you that, the city of Framingham, Massachusetts, smaller than us for sure.

And and probably markedly different in a number of ways.

But the city of Framingham, Massachusetts, is, has built out a thermal energy network done by the municipality.

you know, we don't we don't need to only have this happen when we happen to have the opportunity to have this giant swath of land opened up.

And it has to be not just for commercial purposes, but also to help people reduce their energy bills.

And that's what this study is an opportunity to show us.

But trust me, we're going to be looking at places like Framingham.

I'm planning on going and checking it out and talking to some of the leadership there to understand what they did.

we're not alone in trying to figure out how do we provide people cheaper alternative, energy.

Just add to that, too.

Yeah.

Troy, New York is also, looking at the, the $12 million project for their downtown district to be connected to a geothermal heating and cooling system.

So this is happening just around the country, and, it's, Yeah, it's a real thing.

This is going to be part of the future.

what I'm getting at here.

All right, Keith and Victor on the phone next.

Hey, Keith.

Go ahead.

Evan, just to let you know, my daughter has a geothermal on her house.

She lives out in the country, and, that's the, copy of the call, I think is a coefficient of performance is rated at four.

So basically, which I'm sure your guys know, but maybe not the audience.

So for every dollar worth of, electricity they spend, they get, $4 of, either heat or cold.

You can't create cold, but depending on which way the system is working, whether it be in the wintertime or the summertime, it's been problem free and they haven't had any issues.

They were on, propane before and it's it saves them a considerable amount of money over the length of time they've had it.

How long they had a case, I would say maybe 4 or 5 years.

I would guess.

Okay, we have solar panels in there looking to add solar panels too, but that might be further down the road.

Keith, thank you for that.

And again, our guests have said that, you know, their work is in the the bigger than one home scale.

but anything that he said their copy numbers.

John, you're nodding over there.

Oh, no.

He's he's exactly right.

The coefficient of performance is what heat pumps are really all about.

And replacing fossil fuel boilers.

Bill could probably talk a little bit more detail on that, but not uncommon to see a copy of five for heating and upwards of 20 on cooling.

Yeah.

yeah.

The 20 is is a different rating for cooling.

but we don't need to go into those technical details, but, John, hit the nail on the head of for looking at heating our homes with just electric baseboard heat.

that's got a copy of one for reference.

So when we when we're talking about geothermal heat pumps, they can get upwards of, copy of five, and, plus or minus.

So when we're looking at a 500% improvement on the way that we heat our buildings, we're really lowering that amount that our electric bill would be.

And each one of the facilities and making it more effective for everyone.

Key.

Thank you for that.

Let me just squeeze in as much as we can before the end of the hour.

Barb and Rochester says so a little bit more and we might have covered this ground, but people want to know the details on how this works.

So she says, will these projects also include ground source heat pumps so that the cooling aspect is more efficient?

Gentlemen.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's a yes.

okay.

And, Michael says, when I heard geothermal energy, the first thing that popped into my mind was lost in the Dharma Initiative and the experiments in this one station.

It's not that futuristic.

I mean, it's it's Gino's, right?

It's part of the future because a lot of different municipalities are going to look at future projects, but it's part of the present now.

But anyway, he says people are critical of the inner loop, but I found it a quick and easy way to get around the city when I like.

When I lived in Charlotte and I went to movies at the Little.

That's for Michael.

It's quick and easy because it's usually pretty empty.

Yeah, it's pretty pretty good.

It's pretty good way to travel right now.

It's like having your own personal highway.

It's probably just not very efficient.

Although Matt being too cheeky.

Mitch I mean, maybe it's used more than I realize.

Sorry, I was on mute for a second.

I think, well, first of all, that's what the traffic study is going to tell us.

Yeah.

So again, I'd love to come back when that study is done, be able to have some conversations about it.

obviously need to, coordinate with David.

Right.

But I will tell you, I talked to last weekend, who who works, adjacent to the Inner Loop North and did not seem very excited about the idea of it going away.

I think there are going to be people whose commute, whose commuters impacted and people are going to be upset about.

And I understand that, at the end of the day, we need to do what's best for the city as a whole.

And I think what the East taught us is that this is a good idea, especially if we can get, the feds and state to pay for it, which we're on track to do right now.

And, Mitch, let me also read from Elizabeth says if this is viable, brilliant idea to use geothermal on the old inner loop.

She said the most positive move forward in the city that I've heard in a long time.

Now, if they can include more low income housing on the site, this would be brilliant and perfect.

Low income housing.

Is that in the running there?

Mitch Gruber Well, first let me let me say this.

I think one of the great misunderstandings about the Inner Loop East is the housing that was developed there.

Every single building that was put up there is mixed income housing with different levels of affordability, different.

am I average median income?

There's an assumption, I see I remember seeing the signs, the stop gentrification signs.

There's an assumption that these buildings are all luxury apartments and that is simply not true.

And and something that the city needs to really do a much better job of expressing and explaining, because that was a winning project, not just because of what it but because of the diverse neighborhood that we've been able to build there.

in terms of the Inner Loop North, we have some big questions to ask.

You know, Gladys has been Gladys in a lot of the communities that that she's working with have been very clear that people don't want big six, seven story buildings and loop north.

And I think it's probably not the direction we're moving in.

That doesn't mean that we're not going to look at affordable housing, but it'll take a different shape and size.

That's all the TBD.

What's not TBD is whether we're going to do geothermal or not.

In my opinion, we have to make the study happen, show that it's viable, and build some alternative energy infrastructure for us.

Council member thank you for making time for this hour.

As always, we'll see you in studio again soon.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

That's Mitch Gruber and Gina with our guests in studio.

And that stands out here that we missed this hour.

And we covered a lot of ground.

I think we covered a lot of ground.

Yeah, I this is a really interesting idea.

And, again, it's it's really we'll see what happens at this point.

it's a feasibility study.

We'll see what comes of it.

And the inner loop is going to be a years long project of developing.

And it's going to be a years long project of us reporting on it.

So, I'm looking forward to what comes next.

this is a big deal for Rochester.

It's one of the biggest projects that we've done, probably since we built the inner loop itself.

So, yeah, it's really fascinating stuff.

You and your colleagues in the WXXI newsroom are doing a great job reporting on this story.

And John 30s here, would you be surprised if any study came forward and said, not viable, shouldn't do it?

Do you think the studies are going to support what you want to do in this case, I absolutely do.

I think this is the real opportunity to develop a, large scale geothermal, for the entire North.

And I'm very optimistic.

we're excited about the project.

I think working with the city, working with Bethlehem and Rochester District Heating that's been doing this for 40 years on the steam side.

we've got a real opportunity here that I think is going to be viable.

Thank you for making time.

Thanks for being here.

We appreciate the invitation.

John Dushane is general manager of the Rochester District Heating Cooperative.

Ryan McCauley Chief Financial Officer Thank you for being here.

I appreciate it, Evan, and our thanks to Bill Co, Vice President of Emcor services.

Bettelheim.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks, Sam.

And you're all welcome back.

As we kind of as to the council members point, let's see what the studies say.

And then let's come back and tell the community more about it.

As you saw a tremendous amount of interest and feedback from our listeners.

Do you know Fanelli?

Always good.

Thanks for being here to you as well.

Here.

Thanks for having me.

And from all of us at connections.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you for watching on the news YouTube page.

We are back with you tomorrow on member supported public media.

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Thank.

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