>>> TURNING NOW TO A PROBLEM THAT THE UNITED STATES AND COMMUNITIES AROUND THE WORLD HAVE LONG STRUGGLED WITH, AND THAT IS HOMELESSNESS.

BUT ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, THE CITY OF HOUSTON MAY HAVE A SOLUTION.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF IS AN OPINION COLUMNIST FOR T"THE NEW YORK TI TIMES".

FOR HIS LATEST PIECE HE VISITED HOUSTON AND DALLAS TO DISCUSS HOW BOTH ARE ADDRESSING THE ISSUE AS WE GO TO HARRY SRINIVASAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

NICK, YOUR RECENT REPORTING FOR "NEW YORK TIMES," AN OP-ED CONTRIBUTION IS LOOKING AT HOMELESS.

THE INTERESTING THING TO ME IS MOST OF THE NEWS AROUND HOMELESSNESS TODAY IS PRETTY HOPELESS.

AND I WANT TO FIRST START OFF WITH ASKING YOU WHY YOU CHOSE TO FOCUS ON THESE TWO CITIES IN TEXAS.

>> WELL, I'M ON THE WEST COAST, AND FRANKLY, UP AND DOWN THE WEST COAST IN THE CITIES, IT REALLY DOES FEEL PRETTY DESPAIRING.

AND I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT DALLAS AND HOUSTON WERE A GREAT MICROCOSM OF WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T WORK.

DALLAS AND HOUSTON ARE BOTH BLUE CITIES.

THEY BOTH CARED ABOUT HOMELESS.

THEY BOTH HAD HOMELESSNESS PROBLEMS, AND BOTH TRIED TO ADDRESS IT QUITE SERIOUSLY.

AND THE UPSHOT WAS IN DALLAS, THE PROBLEM GOT WORSE.

AND IN HOUSTON, THEY MANAGED TO REDUCE HOMELESSNESS BY MORE THAN 60% SINCE 2011.

AND SO I THOUGHT, LOOK, MOST OF THE COUNTRY IS DALLAS.

BUT HOUSTON HAS FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE PROGRESS.

WE SHOULD LEARN FROM IT.

SO I WENT TO THE TWO CITIES AND TRIED TO LEARN SOMETHING.

>> YEAH, LET'S LOOK AT THE POSITIVE FIRST.

WHAT WAS OR WHAT IS HOUSTON DOING RIGHT TO DROP THEIR HOMELESS NUMBERS SO SIGNIFICANTLY?

>> SO THERE IS NO SECRET SAUCE AND HOUSTON STILL HAS A HOMELESSNESS PROBLEM.

THEY'VE DONE BETTER THAN OTHERS, BUT IT'S NOT PERFECT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY DID A FEW THINGS REALLY WELL.

THEY HAD REALLY STRONG POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

THEY HAVE A STRONG MAYOR SYSTEM.

AND THAT MAYOR USED THOSE POWERS MAYBE ABOVE ALL TO HERD THE NONPROFITS WHO WERE IN THIS AREA, TO HERD THEM SO THEY'RE ALL PULLING IN THE SAME DIRECTION, SO THAT THEY COORDINATE THEIR EFFORTS.

IN A LOT OF CITIES, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT OUTREACH ORGANIZATIONS WILL REACH ONE HOMELESS PERSON FIVE TIMES AND WON'T REACH ANOTHER AT ALL.

IN HOUSTON, THEY WERE VERY, VERY GOOD ABOUT COORDINATING AND ABOUT EXECUTION.

THEY ALSO DID I THINK A -- THE BACKDROP IS THAT IN HOUSTON, IT'S CHEAP AND EASY TO BUILD HOUSING.

AND SO IN HOUSTON, YOU CAN BUILD A ONE BEDROOM APARTMENT FOR SAY $200,000.

MEANWHILE, IN SAN FRANCISCO, IT HAS COST IN SOME CASES MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS TO PROVIDE A SINGLE HOUSING UNIT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS.

AND I GUESS FINELY, IN HOUSTON, THEY REALLY FOCUS NOT JUST ON GENERAL HELP FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THE STREETS, LIKE GIVING OUT JACKETS OR COUNSELING, BUT ABOVE ALL, JUST RELENTLESSLY ON MOVING PEOPLE INTO HOUSING AND THEN ON KEEPING THEM THERE.

>> YOU KNOW, WE HEAR ON TIMES YOU WALKING AROUND, WATCHING SOMEONE THAT'S ON THE STREETS GET INTERVIEWED.

WHAT WAS -- WHAT WORKED IN THAT, COMPARED TO HOW DIFFERENT NONPROFITS ARE TRYING TO DO INTAKE IN DIFFERENT CITIES?

>> SO IN A LOT OF CITIES THAT INTAKE PROCESS IS NOT COORDINATED.

IN CONTRAST IN HOUSTON, THERE IS A CENTRAL DATABASE.

SO ALL THE NONPROFITS, THERE ARE ABOUT 100 NONPROFITS IN HOUSTON THAT WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS.

SO THEY ALL WORK ON A CENTRAL DATABASE.

THAT PERSON IS ENTERED INTO THE SYSTEM.

EVERYBODY ELSE KNOWS THAT THEY ARE IN THERE, WHAT THEY HAVE, WHAT THEY NEED.

AND THEN THIS INTAKE PROCESS WAS JUST SO MUCH FOCUS ON THE BARRIERS TO HOUSING.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THIS CASE, ONE OF THE BASIC BARRIERS WAS THIS GENTLEMAN, JOE CAVASO, HE DID NOT HAVE AN ID.

THAT IS SO COMMON AMONG PEOPLE.

THEY DON'T HAVE THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

THEY DON'T HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE.

THEY CAN'T PROVE WHO THEY ARE.

SO EVEN IF HE HAD BEEN ABLE TO APPLY FOR A GOVERNMENT ID, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO GET IT TO HIM THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO WAY TO TELL HIM THAT WHERE TO PICK IT UP.

AND SO HOUSTON HAS SET UP A REALLY GOOD SYSTEM TO PROVIDE THOSE GOVERNMENT IDs SO THAT PEOPLE CAN BE PUT ON A TRACK TO HOUSING.

AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE IT STARTS.

>> AND LET'S JUXTAPOSE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN HOUSTON FROM A CITY JUST A FEW HOURS' DRIVE AWAY IN DALLAS.

WHAT IS DALLAS EMBLEMATIC OF IN HOW THAT CITY DEALS WITH HOMELESSNESS COMPARED TO SO MANY OTHER CITIES IN AMERICA?

>> SO IN DALLAS, THE TRADITIONAL EFFORTS WERE VERY UNCOORDINATED.

THEY WERE VERY WELL MEANING, AND THEY DID SOME THINGS REALLY WELL.

BUT IT WASN'T COORDINATED.

IT'S A WEAKER MAYOR SYSTEM.

IT'S EXECUTION, JUST DID NOT WORK.

AND I GUESS REALLY WHAT STRUCK ME WAS THAT WHILE DALLAS WAS FULL OF COMPASSION, AND FULL OF GOOD INTENTIONS, GOOD INTENTIONS ARE NOT ENOUGH.

AND IT'S ABOUT EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY AND EXECUTION.

IN THE EARLY 2,000S, ONE CITY AFTER ANOTHER AROUND THE COUNTRY INTRODUCED TEN-YEAR PLANS TO ELIMINATE HOMELESSNESS.

LOOKING BACK, THOSE TEN-YEAR PLANS WERE REALLY JUST SYMBOLIC.

THEY REALLY DIDN'T ACHIEVE ANYTHING.

AND I THINK AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IN DALLAS, THERE WERE A LOT OF THOSE ANNOUNCEMENTS, A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HOW HOUSING IS A HUMAN RIGHT, BUT NONE OF THAT ACTUALLY GOT PEOPLE INTO HOUSING THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A POSTSCRIPT.

THE FOLKS IN DALLAS WHEN I WAS ASKING ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF A PRICKLY CONVERSATION TO BE THE CONTRAST TO HOUSTON.

BUT A FEW YEARS AGO, DALLAS REALLY GOT FED UP WITH THE HOMELESSNESS.

THEY SAW HOUSTON'S SUCCESS.

THEY BEGAN TO COPY THE MODEL.

SO AS A RESULT NOW, THE LAST TWO YEARS DALLAS HAS MADE REAL PROGRESS AGAINST THE HOMELESS USING THAT HOUSTON MODEL.

>> NOW DALLAS IS REALLY EXCITED THAT THEY'VE TURNED THE CORNER, THAT NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE HOMELESS IN DALLAS ARE GOING DOWN.

AND SO THEY'RE KIND OF EXCITED THAT NOW THEY'VE GOT IT RIGHT AND ARE QUITE FULL OF OPTIMISM.

HOUSTON, ON THE OTHER HAND, WHILE IT HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, I THINK FACES SOME REAL CHALLENGES.

HOUSTON HAS DONE THIS ON THE CHEAP, WHICH IS IMPRESSIVE THAT THEY HAVEN'T SPENT THE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT THE WEST COAST CITIES HAVE.

BUT HOUSTON HAS ESSENTIALLY USED FEDERAL MONEY, TYPICALLY COVID MONEY.

AND THAT IS NOW RUNNING OUT.

AND SO THE CHALLENGE WILL BE WILL -- HOUSTON HAS DEVELOPED A MODEL THAT WORKS.

BUT WILL IT BE WILLING TO FUND THE MODEL WITH ITS OWN MONEY RATHER THAN JUST FEDERAL MONEY COMING IN.

AND THAT IS UNCLEAR.

I THINK THERE IS SOME REAL ANXIETY AMONG HOUSTON CIVIC LEADERS ABOUT WHETHER THEY CAN SUSTAIN THE MOMENTUM WHEN THEY'RE FORCED TO RELY ON THEIR OWN RESOURCE.

>> SO ZOOM OUT FROM THESE TWO CITIES FOR A LITTLE BIT.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THE PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> SO IT'S AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM.

ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT, ABOUT 580,000 PEOPLE ARE HOMELESS, AND THAT'S ON ANY ONE NIGHT.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS MUCH GREATER BECAUSE PEOPLE CYCLE IN AND OUT OF HOMELESSNESS.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR A WHILE THEY'RE ON SOMEBODY'S COUCH.

AND THEN THEY FIND A PLACE, AND THEN THEY'RE IN THE CAR, AND THEN THEY'RE IN A SHELTER.

AND THEN THEY GET A PLACE.

AND IT'S -- WE ONLY TEND TO SEE THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE BY PEOPLE WHO ARE UNSHELTERED AND ACTUALLY OUT ON THE STREET.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO ARE AND ESPECIALLY KIDS, INCLUDING THOSE WHO GO TO SCHOOL WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, DOUBLED UP ON COUCHES IN A NEIGHBOR'S PLACE, WHO ARE IN VEHICLES, THIS KIND OF THING.

AND I ESPECIALLY WORRY ABOUT THE IMPACT ON KIDS, KIDS WHO ARE GROWING UP.

HOW CAN YOU CONCENTRATE IN SCHOOL WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE A HOME?

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE PRIMARY REASONS THAT PEOPLE SLIP INTO HOMELESSNESS?

IS IT MEDICAL DEBT?

IS IT A DIVORCE?

WHAT KINDS OF REASONS DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU WERE WALKING AND TALKING WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ADDING HOMELESS POPULATIONS INTO HOUSTON'S DATABASE ON A DAILY BASIS?

>> SO FINANCIAL CRISIS OF SOME KIND IS VERY OFTEN WHAT TIPS PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE AND FRAGILE INTO HOMELESSNESS.

SO A HEALTH CRISIS, A MEDICAL CRISIS IS VERY OFTEN A FACTOR.

IT'S NOT JUST THE BILLS, BUT IT MAY MEAN SOMEBODY NO LONGER HAS THE ABILITY TO WORK.

WE HAVE SO MANY AMERICANS AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO ARE JUST LIVING RIGHT ON THE EDGE, PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.

AND THE MOMENT THAT PAYCHECK DOESN'T COME IN, THEY'RE IN A CRISIS.

THEY'RE ALSO ARE AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO AFFORD $700 A MONTH, $800 A MONTH FOR RENT, BUT THEY HAVE BAD CREDIT OR THEY HAVE AN EVICTION HISTORY.

AND IF YOU HAVE AN EVICTION HISTORY IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, IT IS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO GET ANYBODY TO RENT TO YOU.

LIKEWISE, IF YOU HAVE A FELONY CONVICTION.

VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

AND SO ALL THOSE DIFFERENT FACTORS.

BUT, AGAIN, I THINK THERE IS A RISK OF FOLKS JUST ON THE POPULATION THAT IS HOMELESS AND NOT ON THE STRUCTURAL FACTOR OF NOT ENOUGH HOUSING.

THE METAPHOR THAT IS OFTEN USED IS MUSICAL CHAIRS.

IF YOU HAVE A GAME OF MUSICAL CHAIRS AND THERE IS ONE SEAT TOO FEW, THERE IS SOMEBODY WHO LACKS A CHAIR.

AND IN THE SAME WAY, IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSING, THERE ARE GOING TO BE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF HOUSING.

AND IN THAT SCRAMBLE IS GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAST COMPETENT, LEAST SKILLED, MORE DISABLED AND VERY OFTEN THAT IS PEOPLE WITH ADDICTIONS, WITH ALCOHOLISM, WITH VARIOUS OTHER ISSUES.

BUT THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IS NOT ENOUGH CHAIRS, OR NOT ENOUGH HOUSING.

>> SO I UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S LESS EXPENSIVE TO BUILD A NEW STRUCTURE IN HOUSTON.

BUT HOW MUCH DOES, FOR EXAMPLE, ZONING FACTOR INTO WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET SHELTER?

>> ZONING AND MORE BROADLY KIND OF NIMBY ISSUES, NOT IN MY BACKYARD ARE ISSUES.

I'M A LIBERAL AND I BELIEVE IN ZONING.

I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN IT.

AND WHEN I WAS DRIVING INTO HOUSTON FOR THIS STORY, I SAW THIS ENDLESS URBAN SPRAWL.

AND I'M FEELING KIND OF SMUG THAT BACK IN OREGON WE DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF SPRAWL.

BUT THE UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH IS THAT THAT LACK OF ZONING ALSO MAKES IT CHEAP AND QUICK TO BUILD.

AND IT'S ONE REASON WHY THE COST OF HOUSING IS A LOT CHEAPER IN HOUSTON THAN IT IS IN OREGON OR IN CALIFORNIA.

AND SO THERE ARE REAL TRADE-OFFS THERE THAT I THINK MY WORLD OF LIBERALS HAS TO WRESTLE WITH THAT, YOU KNOW, WE TRY TO PRESERVE NEIGHBORHOOD CHARACTER.

WE TRY TO PRESERVE WILD SPACES, AND THOSE ARE IMPORTANT GOALS.

BUT UPSHOT OF THAT, AND ALSO IT IS EFFECTIVELY THAT WE OFTEN GIVE A VETO TO NEW COMMUNITIES OVER BUILDING NEW HOUSING.

AND THAT RAISES HOUSING COSTS.

WHEN YOU HAVE HIGHER HOUSING COSTS, THEN YOU END UP WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE OFTEN HOMELESS.

WE GOT RID OF SRO HOUSING AROUND THE COUNTRY BEGINNING IN THE 1960s.

AND THAT WAS INTENDED AS A WAY OF IMPROVING NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND IN FACT, ONE OF THE UPSHOTS WAS THAT WE ENDED UP WITH MORE PEOPLE SLEEPING ON SIDEWALKS.

>> WHEN YOU SAID SROs, YOU MEAN SINGLE ROOM OCCUPANCIES?

>> YEAH.

THE PARADOX IS THAT HISTORICALLY WE HAD SOLUTIONS TO HOMELESSNESS IN THE FORM OF CHEAP HOUSING.

SO WE HAD SINGLE RESIDENCY OCCUPANCY HOTELS AND BUILDINGS THAT WERE A LITTLE LIKE A DORM.

A SMALL ROOM TO SLEEP IN AND THEN A SHARED BATHROOM, MAYBE SOME KIND OF SHARED KITCHEN FACILITY.

AND THE ONLY REAL ADVANTAGE OF THOSE IS THEY WERE CHEAP, AND THEY WEREN'T GREAT HOUSING, BUT THEY WERE SO MUCH BETTER THAN SLEEPING ON THE STREET.

AND BECAUSE THEY HAD A REPUTATION FOR BEING SEEDY, THEY WERE KIND OF ZONED OUT OF EXIST EXISTENCE IN CITY AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE THOUGHT THAT WE WERE IMPROVING NEIGHBORHOODS.

THE UPSHOT WHEN PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THOSE IS THEY OFTEN ENDED UP ON THE STREET.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO PROVIDE SOMETHING LIKE THOSE OLD TRADITIONAL BOARDING HOUR, ROOMING HOUSES THE WAY WE ONCE DID.

>> SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, NOT IN MY BACKYARD TENDENCY, AND SO MANY PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO WANT TO SHELTER PEOPLE, WHAT CAN THEY LEARN FROM HOUSTON OR OTHER PLACES?

>> SO I THINK THAT PART OF IT INDEED HAS TO BE TO EASE THE HOUSING SHORTAGE AND MAKE IT EASIER TO BUILD.

AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS TO DO THAT.

YOU KNOW, ONE IS SIMPLY -- THERE ARE ABOUT 35 MILLION UNUSED BEDROOMS IN AMERICA.

AND IT USED TO BE COMMON IN THE UNITED STATES TO HAVE A BASEMENT FLAT THAT ONE WOULD RENT OUT OR OCCASIONALLY TO TAKE IN A BORDER.

THERE ARE A LOT OF FOUR AND FIVE-BEDROOM HOMES REFLECTING HOUSING STOCK THAT SERVED A MUCH LARGER NUCLEAR FAMILY STRUCTURE THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, HUGELY UNDERUSED.

THOSE COULD BE TURNED INTO ROOMING HOUSES WHICH USED TO BE VERY COMMON AND NOW HAVE PRETTY MUCH VANISHED.

AND I THINK THAT ALSO I'D LOVE TO SEE CITIES LIKE PORTLAND OR SAN FRANCISCO LEARN FROM HOUSTON AND HAVE THIS KIND OF COORDINATED APPROACH OF NONPROFITS TO SUPPORT, TO REACH PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW, IN PORTLAND, THERE ACTUALLY WAS A SURVEY OF PEOPLE WHO WERE HOMELESS, AND TWO-THIRDS HAD NOT BEEN EVER CONTACTED BY AN OUTREACH WORKER IN WAYS THAT WOULD LEAD TO HOUSING.

AND OF THE ONE-THIRD WHO HAD BEEN CONTACTED, MOST HAD -- THERE HAD NEVER BEEN ANY FOLLOW-UP.

ONE THING THAT HOUSTON HAS DONE WITH THAT OUTREACH ALSO IS FIND -- IS TO ASK PEOPLE IS THERE ANY RELATIVE WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP YOU, TO BE IN TOUCH WITH YOU, TO TAKE YOU IN, TO PROVIDE SUPPORT IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET OFF OF DRUGS, OR IS THERE ANY SOURCE OF INCOME?

ARE YOU A VETERAN?

IS THERE ANY DISABILITY POSSIBILITIES OR INCOME STREAM YOU MIGHT BE ELIGIBLE FOR.

AND ALL OF THESE THINGS AT THE MARGIN, THEY HELP.

>> SO WHAT'S THE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICY THAT RESEARCH HAS FOUND IS DOING THE MOST TO STOP HOMELESSNESS?

IS IT AS SIMPLE AS SAYING HOUSING OR SHELTERING PEOPLE?

OR IS THERE A DIFFERENCE OR DISTINCTION BETWEEN, SAY, HOMELESS SHELTERS AND GIVING SOMEBODY AN APARTMENT, A SET OF KEYS SO THAT MEDICAL SERVICES OR SOCIAL SERVICES CAN SHOW UP AT A CENTRALIZED LOCATION?

WHAT'S WORKING?

>> SO I DO THINK THAT FUNDAMENTALLY PROVIDING MORE HOUSING, MORE CHEAP HOUSING IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR.

THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF RESEARCH THAT UNDERSCORES THAT.

FOR EXAMPLE, WEST VIRGINIA HAS AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM WITH ADDICTION.

BUT WEST VIRGINIA DOES NOT HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL HOMELESSNESS PROBLEM BECAUSE IN WEST VIRGINIA YOU CAN RENT A SMALL APARTMENT FOR $500 OR $600 A MONTH.

TRY DOING THAT IN CALIFORNIA.

AND SO I DO THINK THAT PROVIDING MORE HOUSING, LOWERING THE COSTS, THUS MAKING IT MORE ACCESSIBLE HELPS A GREAT DEAL.

I THINK WE HAVE TO TACKLE THIS ISSUE OF PEOPLE WITH BAD CREDIT OR WITH EVICTION HISTORIES.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT IF YOU -- IF YOU'RE FACING A $1,000 RENT, YOU DON'T JUST HAVE TO PAY $1,000, YOU HAVE TO ALSO PAY, YOU KNOW, A MONTH'S SECURITY DEPOSIT, FOR EXAMPLE.

YOU HAVE TO PAY VARIOUS FEES.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO PAY THAT MONTHLY RENT, BUT CAN'T AFFORD ALL THESE FEES TO GET THEM OFF THE STREET.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, OUTREACH WORK.

GOOD OUTREACH JUST MAKES SUCH A DIFFERENCE IN TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE MAKE THAT MOVE INTO HOUSING.

>> NICK KRISTOF OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, HARI.