(upbeat music) - [Sueann] Today's guests on Traverse Talks were the first gay couple to be married in Idaho, Tabitha Simmons and Kathy Sprague own a comic book shop that houses, adult products in the back and produce drag shows all in rural Idaho.

I learned about packing from them, not the kind that involves boxes or maybe.

More seriously, they share how they offer a safe place for all and have behavior rules for their drag shows.

This is Traverse Talks.

I hope you enjoy our guests.

(upbeat music) - [Sueann] The both of you are known in Idaho for being the first same sex couple legally wed in Idaho.

That's quite a medallion.

Does that ever get in the way of your personal life?

- [Kathy] Just for that first weekend.

- [Tabitha] It was a slow news week.

There were no insurrections, no, no bombings, nothing of note, except our marriage license in one of the reddest states in the country.

- [Kathy] It was very overwhelming.

Just the number of folks who said, wow, it's so great that it was you two, you have done so much.

And a couple of them said you saved my life when I was a kid.

- [Sueann] Because just being who you are and loving each other, you have inspired others to love themselves and accept themselves and probably a whole community to just get over themselves in a way.

- [Tabitha] I wish that were truly the case.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] What do you, well, what do you think the case is?

- [Tabitha] I know that we have helped a lot of people get in touch with themselves and be more accepting of differences than they otherwise would be, but it's still Moscow and there's still a bit of resistance.

- [Sueann] So your marriage I'm so curious, was it serendipitous that you happened to be the first ones who got the license in Idaho?

- [Kathy] Oh hell no.

- [Sueann] It was coordinated?

(Kathy laughing) - [Tabitha] So we actually had a hand fasting ceremony in '91.

We felt that we were married in front of our friends and that's what was really important to us at the time.

I would never have thought that anything else, anything legal would be even a possibility within my lifetime.

And then we started watching what was going on in the Supreme Court.

And we heard that the ruling came through and we went to our courthouse.

The Idaho Attorney General had left the office early down in Boise, which is already an hour ahead of Moscow.

- [Kathy] His instructions at the time were, if you have questions about this, the state had been lifted by the Supreme Court.

If you have questions, go to your prosecuting attorney.

So we showed up at the courthouse.

- [Tabitha] Called the photographer for the Daily News, who happens to be a friend.

Called any number of other folks to make sure that this was all in the news.

And we camped out there with about 40 folks.

- [Kathy] Five other couples.

They ran upstairs.

The prosecutor was out of town.

The assistant prosecutor came down and said, yes, I'll let them issue licenses.

If I can witness all of this, we had a friend who was on medical leave, who worked in the office at the courthouse, she came in.

- [Tabitha] So that she could file the permits because she's a member of the queer community.

- [Kathy] So it was kind of a side show (laughing) and out of nowhere for the photo op appeared Paulette Jordan.

- [Sueann] Oh wow.

- [Kathy] 'Cause she was our legislator at the time.

- [Sueann] Right.

- [Kathy] And our friends, Rob and Gordon got the second license.

- [Tabitha] So all in all, there were six.

We were the Latah Six.

They were the only licenses that were actually filed that day.

And it was vitally important to us.

So we had the Unitarian Minister come and perform these wedding ceremonies right outside the courthouse, signed everything, got our witnesses, turn them back in that day prior to close because your legal standing is changed.

If something that you already have is being taken from you as opposed to denying you something that you've never had.

So it was vitally important that it be filed that day.

- [Sueann] And in.

- [Tabitha] Yes.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

- [Sueann] Were there any legal repercussions after?

- [Tabitha] Well, because the circuit court had not yet ruled and lifted the stay for our region of the US, it was not a legal certificate.

So there were tax implications.

There were, a friend who worked for the social security administration informed us that those licenses would not be observed and spousal benefits would not be applied based upon those licenses.

So the county actually made a special form for us, so that these six couples could come back in free of charge.

We didn't have to pay a second fee to have a second license issued.

And our licenses actually did not make us attest to be single people.

They specifically changed the wording so that we didn't have to say that our first license was null and void.

Because we had already filed joint tax returns.

We had done all of these other things.

- [Sueann] So they protected you, the county.

- [Tabitha] Yes.

- [Kathy] The county was phenomenal.

The state department of vital records waited until, I think all of the couples had filed jointly as married and then came at us and said, you're not married.

And those cases were dropped very quickly.

- [Sueann] What a story.

And, well, first I'm glad that you were hand fasted earlier.

So you had been together to weather the political issues of getting these licenses.

Does that stress wear on you as a couple or does it unite you more?

- [Tabitha] Yes, to both.

(everyone laughing) - [Kathy] You know, when Trump won, I was ready to sell everything.

And just ahead for the Hills, it's like, we'll close the store.

I'm done.

I can't do this any longer and usually I'm the one, who's the cheerleader going go, go, no, we have to keep fighting and at that point, Tabitha said, no, we have to continue to hold space.

It's even more important.

It's vitally important for these kids that we remain here.

- [Sueann] Ah, Tabitha, why did you think about them and not yourself?

Because honestly I'm a cisgendered female, right?

And I was like, I'm ready to leave this country.

It's just a lot of emotion, a lot of work.

- [Tabitha] So many of them over the years have thought of us as the mom, they wanted to have.

That it's made an impression.

- [Sueann] Let's go there a little bit.

And here I have some tissue too, for all of us.

Do you have some stories you can share?

- [Tabitha] A lot of them are very personal and not my story to tell.

- [Sueann] Understood.

- [Tabitha] There are a lot of those kids that were not in good places.

And sometimes all they needed to see was that we were here and living normal lives, doing everyday things, fighting, coming back together, grocery shopping, all of that.

They needed to see that it was possible for them.

- [Sueann] I assume, because they felt so othered.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

Often by their, their birth parents or the folks that raised them at any rate.

And so, yeah, it was just that we needed to be there and we needed to continue making that space for them to be themselves and be seen and accepted as long as they were willing to be respectful of everyone else that was there, doesn't matter who they are.

- [Sueann] Being in the community that you're in.

And as examples for so many people, I mean, you've got generations of kids who've gone through your store and who are connecting with you as adults.

What do you have to say to the community that we should be doing more to support our children?

- [Tabitha] Oh, meet them where they are.

- [Sueann] What does that mean?

- [Tabitha] Respect what they bring to the table now gently guide them to the areas where they need to find growth, spank them if they need it, that's it.

- [Sueann] Do you hear that Ari?

Mama's got permission.

(everyone laughing) - [Kathy] And you know, spanking, isn't always, it's not a physical thing, but when we have college kids come in and they're being rough with the product or they're being rude to the staff.

And I tell them that's not appropriate.

They look very startled because they haven't heard that.

And I think, wow, God, they're never coming back to my store.

I was just mean to them.

And we had a kid who took off his protective mask, put on a Plague Doctor mask and started running around the store.

And I said, excuse me, are you kidding me?

You're breathing on the inside of that.

We are in the middle of a pandemic.

And so we took it from him and the staff was sterilizing it.

And I just went into the office because I'd snapped at him.

And he came in two days later to buy something.

And he sets the product on the counter.

And he says, I'm sorry, about the other day.

Like, it's okay.

It's just.

- [Sueann] You had standards and he recognized he has to act a certain way.

- [Tabitha] Yeah.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

And I think that's one of our biggest failings right now is confusing holding people to a standard with that being a negative.

- [Sueann] Yes.

- [Kathy] You know, you don't have to be mean, you don't have to hate them forever, but when you say, eh, stop that, you know and they stop it.

That's great.

- [Sueann] And we move on.

- [Kathy] You move on.

Yeah.

- [Tabitha] We're also very careful to not say you are horrible.

It's that thing you're doing right now is unacceptable.

- [Sueann] Your behavior.

You're acting poorly.

Not that you are.

- [Tabitha] And that thing is unacceptable.

It's not bad.

It's just unacceptable.

- [Kathy] I have enough school teachers in my family that I can do the snap and point.

And that even makes grownups just stop cold.

You do that.

(snaps) And they're oh, oh, oh, okay.

- [Tabitha] And apparently I have a withering glare.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] The moms look.

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(upbeat music) - [Sueann] I'm so curious when you have these young people who come to you and they're seeking a safe place, did you ever get in trouble by a parent?

- [Tabitha] We've had a few run-ins.

- [Sueann] And what did you say to them?

- [Kathy] The drag shows used to be 15 and up, and we had to go to 18 and over, we had a mother come in and she was furious that her 15 year old daughter had gone to the drag show and had not told her.

And it wasn't you know, it was an unsavory situation.

And how dare we put her daughter at risk?

And I said, Ma'am, she can't have alcohol.

There are no drugs.

And this is an issue between you and your daughter that she doesn't trust you to talk to you.

And then I realized what words had just come outta my mouth when this woman exploded.

But we decided just for our safety, you know, and we would occasionally make exceptions for kids whose parents were supportive.

And we knew that there wouldn't be backlash.

- [Sueann] Right.

So you have the store Safari Pearl, and then you have TabiKat Productions.

Can you describe what that is?

You mentioned drag shows.

What is TabiKat productions?

- [Kathy] Well, it's Tabi, the first four letters of Tabitha's name.

- [Tabitha] Which is the nickname I refuse to respond to.

- [Kathy] And I don't like the nickname cat.

- [Sueann] So you made it TabiKat.

- [Tabitha] If you can reclaim the word that people use against you.

Why not?

- [Sueann] Bravo.

I like that.

And then you literally put on drag shows.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

The first one was my 30th birthday party, 'cause my 28th birthday was a friend's funeral.

He died of aids and his funeral was 10 years to the day that he and I had come out to each other at age 18.

So my birthday's kind of loaded.

- [Sueann] Yeah.

(everyone laughing) - [Kathy] And so it's like, I'm gonna reclaim my birthday.

And now we're 27 years into the shows.

- [Sueann] Kathy, you came out to your friend and he came out to you.

- [Kathy] We came out.

- [Sueann] What was, can you describe that moment and take us back in time because I'm assuming this was in the early eighties.

- [Kathy] It was 1983.

- [Sueann] And that just, I don't even know if you had the language to describe what you were feeling.

- [Kathy] We knew that we were gay.

I came out to him and he said, yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you.

I know we both are and so here we are.

- [Sueann] And did it feel a release or?

- [Kathy] It just felt silly because we had, we palled around, we were cover for each other for a long time and we had a falling out and then he came back to town and was very ill. And I knew before I talked to him, 'cause I had been living in Seattle on Capitol Hill and I had watched a lot of the men in my neighborhood die.

It, it was not a great time.

There was one drug, it was AZT.

And if you weren't dosed properly by your doctor, the side effects were worse than the disease.

And unfortunately that's where David was with it.

But I was there with him when he died.

- [Sueann] You did hospice work?

- [Kathy] Yeah, I did hospice with him.

- [Sueann] So you have an intimate knowledge of death.

What is it that people should understand about dying?

- [Kathy] Don't be as afraid of it as our culture makes you be afraid.

We were planning David's Memorial and he was in and out of consciousness on morphine and he started to get up out of bed.

And we're like, what, what, what what's going on, David?

He said, "I have to get dressed for my Memorial."

- [Sueann] That's funny.

(everyone laughing) - [Kathy] So he told us what he wanted to be cremated in.

I mean he had his outfit picked out.

- [Sueann] My goodness and then also doing hospice.

What should people ask themselves in order to examine their, I mean, everybody's gonna die, in order to examine your own death.

Have you?

- [Kathy] I'm not there yet, but we've done hospice twice now for two people, a little bit, a good friend who was there for me and helped space when I was young, died last summer and we took a few of the shifts with her.

I think when you get there, you develop the skills to come to terms with being there and that it's okay to not have them now.

That's sure how it seemed with both of them.

- [Kathy] Yeah and the second experience was amazing because it was mostly women from her church, taking shifts, doing the hospice care and then me and Tabitha and our country is so divided and there really is no need for that.

There is absolutely no reason we cannot meet each other on common ground.

- [Tabitha] We all want the same things.

- [Kathy] We wanna take care of our loved ones.

And if we can find ways, places and a way to meet in that common space, you can build so many bridges.

And I think when Tabitha and I joined the Women of the Moose, Tabitha was talking to one of the women about how I'm a morning person and she isn't.

And this elderly woman made a comment about that's how my husband and I were.

And she thought about it for a minute.

And she said, you and Tabitha aren't any different from any other couple.

And so if you just lead your life as best you can and set that example, I think people will eventually see it.

- [Sueann] I just wanna open their eyes up a little more though and speed up the process.

- [Kathy] Oh God and there are people you just wanna hit with a two by four.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] I wanted to think that everybody has this potential to have the growth mindset, but sometimes they're behind the power curve.

- [Tabitha] But they'll get there as long as, as you're patient with them.

- [Sueann] Gosh, I guess that's a lot of love in your heart.

Patience to me is all about love.

- [Tabitha] Hmm.

It beats anger.

- [Sueann] Yeah.

Anger's pretty destructive, which is really just being depressed and sad, right?

- [Tabitha] Right.

- [Sueann] So what's your choice?

- [Tabitha] Patience really is just the, the thing that is easier for you to do.

- [Sueann] How do you, how do you practice patience?

- [Tabitha] Not very well.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] I mean, besides like a deep breath.

- [Tabitha] It's just reminding yourself that you were there too.

And you do the same thing to other people.

You exasperate them just as much as they do you.

And if we're all gentle with each other, eventually we can foster understanding.

- [Sueann] Love it.

The comment earlier was you're like any other couple, you're just like me and my husband.

I think you're a little more extraordinary in that you are married.

You live together, you work together, have a business on top of TabiKat Productions.

So, how do you do that and still have a relationship?

- [Tabitha] I'm up for three hours after she's gone to bed.

And that's my me time.

She leaves for work earlier than I do in the morning.

That's my me time.

I still get as much me time as I think most other folks do.

But uh, yeah.

- [Kathy] I'm up at 6:00 AM with our pet ducks and I make the coffee and I have a little me time then.

And then if I'm lucky I get to go home from work early and have a little downtime with the dogs and the ducks.

We're better at building that into our schedules.

- [Sueann] Now that you're wiser.

- [Tabitha] Yeah.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] Old married couple?

Well, besides the shift in time change, what do you admire about each other?

- [Tabitha] Kathy makes interacting with the world look so easy.

I am much more reserved and shy.

And so she goes out and does all the sword waving, that makes it safe for me to follow.

- [Kathy] I am off in a thousand different directions.

I'm waving my arms, I'm scheming and talking to people.

And Tabitha brings me back down.

Sometimes I think Tabitha catches me by the back of my collar and keeps me from being hit by a bus.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] This is great.

Yeah.

I could really relate to that.

My husband is literally an earth sign and a Virgo.

So it's hella annoying, but very practical, especially when I'm winding up.

And then the grounding is very helpful, but he would be pretty solid and boring and hard and difficult if it weren't for me too, I'm putting words in his mouth.

- [Tabitha] But it's exactly right.

I am not terribly interesting on my own.

Really.

- [Kathy] You are.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] How did you two meet?

- [Kathy] So there used to be community dances at the Community Center, which is now City Hall in Moscow.

Well, I see this cute little thing in a vest and she's blowing bubbles.

She's got the little soap bubbles.

She's blowing bubbles on the front steps and she's giving a raft of poo to one of, one of our mutual friends.

And I looked at him and I said, who is that?

He's like, oh my God, she's friends with your sister, Stacy, do you not know Tabitha?

And I slap him in the chest and I'm like, no, introduce me now.

And so he introduced us and wandered off and Tabitha continued to be silly and blow soap bubbles.

And then she hopped up and jumped on the back of some woman's motorcycle and took off and I'm like, oh, okay.

That's not gonna pan out.

And we bumped into each other at the grocery store.

And a few times she came into my store, came into the comic shop, bought some comic books, wrote a check, circled her phone number and handed it to me.

- [Tabitha] Said, you'll need this to take the check.

I'm sure and hand the check to her.

- [Sueann] Did you wink when you?

- [Tabitha] I'm not that forward.

Or at least I wasn't then.

- [Kathy] So me being- - [Tabitha] clueless, let's be honest.

She deposited the damn check without getting my number.

- [Kathy] Like that just doesn't seem like that.

Not right.

I shouldn't do that.

- [Sueann] I'm gonna be stereotypical.

I thought women were really perceptive and you would've caught on, that sounds like a dude thing.

- [Tabitha] Not at all.

No.

She's my stash.

- [Kathy] It felt sketchy to take your phone number off of the check.

- [Sueann] You were in business mode, you're in business mode.

- [Kathy] So on her birthday, but I did remember the address.

So I looked up the address in the phone book and on her birthday, I sent her flowers, but since she was living in her parents' house, I signed it, that it was from me and the male friend that had introduced us.

So it didn't seem weird.

- [Sueann] Ah, but you got the message?

I hope.

- [Tabitha] White roses.

I had no clue what white roses meant at the time.

- [Sueann] What does this mean?

(laughing) - [Tabitha] I am not one to let sleeping dogs lie.

So of course I obsessed on this for five days.

- [Sueann] Five days.

Then when did you finally get together?

- [Tabitha] And there was no internet really.

It was in its infancy.

- [Kathy] And she couldn't Google it.

- [Tabitha] I couldn't just Google it.

I mean, there were rhetorical questions at that point.

- [Kathy] So there was another dance.

It was Halloween.

I was dressed as a joker.

She was dressed as Santa Claus.

And I just describe it as the world's worst one night stand.

- [Sueann] I'm sorry.

I'm just imagining, it's super inappropriate of me imagining the taking off of the costumes of the Joker and the Santa Claus.

- [Tabitha] Okay.

But you have to remember too, that this was before Christmas was out before Halloween.

This was back in the day and the only reason I convinced the manager of Rite Aid to go open the pallet of candy canes so that I could get candy canes because I can't approach people, even to talk with them normally much less to try and get a date.

So I decided that if I sat next to the women's bathroom and asked all of the ladies in line to sit on my lap and tell me whether they'd been naughty or nice and give them a candy cane that I would at least meet all of the women without really having to work outside of my script.

- [Sueann] This was a really good idea.

- [Tabitha] I was brilliant if I say so myself.

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] And then did Kathy come sit on your lap?

- [Tabitha] She hates peppermint, but yes.

(everyone laughing) - [Kathy] Throughout the night she kept giving me candy canes and I just kept pocketing.

So I had more candy canes than someone who hates peppermint should ever possess.

And yeah, we got back to my place and I looked in the mirror and I still have joker white face paint on, and I'm trying to scrub it off and comb the green outta my hair and thinking what kind of weirdo would come home with this?

(everyone laughing) - [Sueann] I'm gonna marry her.

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(upbeat music) - [Sueann] What is special about the community drag creates for LGBTQA+ people?

- [Tabitha] Not all of them even want that drag community.

There are a lot of folks that are offended that, that represents me.

- [Sueann] Ooh, please tell me more.

- [Tabitha] I wish I could understand it and tell you more.

- [Sueann] I see.

- [Tabitha] But I don't really.

- [Kathy] When we first started the worst blowback we got the people who are the most critical of drag shows were cis gay men, because they didn't wanna be represented by that.

- [Tabitha] They're men who willingly give up power by embracing the femininity within them.

- [Sueann] Okay.

Cis gay men.

I'm so, can you help me with that?

- [Tabitha] They were born men and they are gay.

- [Kathy] They present as men.

- [Tabitha] They're cis gay rather than cis het.

- [Sueann] Thank you.

- [Tabitha] They are two separate axis.

- [Sueann] And they did not like drag shows 'cause?

- [Tabitha] Very threatened by that.

- [Sueann] Made them insecure.

- [Kathy] I think at this point, a lot of them have moved past that.

- [Tabitha] Most of them have.

- [Kathy] The glory of drag is that you can try on another persona.

Some of our performers eventually come out as trans.

They try on that persona and it's a safe space to present for the first time.

- [Tabitha] Some of them perform as a more outlandish version of the parts they were born with too.

- [Sueann] So, drag isn't necessarily switching to the other.

It could be just over exaggerating.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

There are cis women who, you know, Miss Pretty does a very classic 1940s, 1950s kind of look.

- [Tabitha] We had a very butch lesbian who would perform as a siren wearing a full length beaded gown and- - [Kathy] You know, drag, you can access a part of yourself that you normally don't present.

- [Sueann] Explore, but isn't it scary for people to explore parts because you never know what you're gonna feel or discover.

- [Tabitha] There's the rub.

- [Sueann] Hmm.

What advice do you have for those who want to try drag?

- [Kathy] Just do it.

Just jump in.

If you wanna perform, you know, with our troop, we require they do something called drag 101, because we go over the house rules and the behavior we expect.

Bar shows for drag have notoriously been an area where there's not a lot of discipline.

Backstage, we require that our performers are kind to each other.

They are not sloppy drunk that they are professional in they're bearing, you know, we've kind of raised the bar in some respects because there's an expectation of good behavior.

You don't have to be the best performer.

You don't have to pass perfectly, but you have to be nice.

- [Tabitha] And respectful.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

And there's a respect that they need to show to the audience, to the staff, to the other performers.

And it's a far less toxic environment when you enforce that.

- [Sueann] Well, this goes to a greater conversation that we're all trying to see the human in one another.

And even in the drag community, I suppose there could be some real toxic shit.

- [Kathy] Honest to God.

I think that RuPaul is the worst thing that ever happened to drag.

- [Sueann] Tell me why?

- [Kathy] Because a drag troop, you, it is your family.

It is not a competition.

You don't back stab your sisters.

- [Sueann] I see.

And they made it a competition.

- [Kathy] And they turned it into a competition.

And so you have these young kids who think that that's appropriate behavior backstage and it's not.

- [Tabitha] Sabotaging someone else because they're your competitor.

No.

- [Kathy] They're not your competitor.

If you're performing in the same show, you raise all ships by being better.

- [Sueann] Ah, and that space that you're talking about is your business, Safari Pearl, can you describe the business that it is now?

- [Tabitha] It used to be our living room.

(everyone laughing) That became dangerous at a certain point.

So it became the store.

- [Sueann] Because people were in your home and you never knew who was gonna come in the door.

- [Tabitha] No, for a while, there were witch hunts.

And we realized that being in our home in a private place could have resulted in some accusations of unacceptable behavior.

- [Sueann] I see.

- [Tabitha] Yeah.

And so we stopped doing that.

- [Sueann] No good deed goes unpunished.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

Which is interesting.

I forgot to tell you, I got a text message yesterday from KB.

She was a queer child.

Grew up in Moscow.

Her parents were very high profile.

And when she came out, she would stop by our home.

And years later, she said, you know, you were the only adults that never tried to get anything from me sexually.

You treated me with love and respect.

And I never felt endangered.

- [Tabitha] Unfortunately.

Yeah.

The eighties and nineties were kind of a, it's okay to screw your groupies era.

And you know, now we're seeing all of, all of the backlash against recording artists and any number of people in prominent positions who did that sort of thing.

That was never okay for us.

And so we had to do what we needed to, to make sure that it was entirely clear to the vulnerable folks, whether they were younger or not that we're not in our home because this is a private place.

And we're going to take advantage of you.

It was as much for them, I guess, as to protect ourselves.

- [Sueann] Huh.

Well, I have two questions, was the message, she was thankful?

I'm curious if you wanna share.

- [Kathy] Very thankful and she just occasionally will send me a text message and check in and let me know how she's doing.

We have hundreds of people that just, the store's been there for 30 some years.

Yikes.

I started the store before Tabitha and I got together.

So over 33 years, we have folks that stop in, check in.

They're excited to see that the store is still there, that it's grown.

They're happy to see us.

- [Sueann] I think it's amazing that a store is a safe place.

They should be but yours is more wholesome and holistic come as you are.

- [Tabitha] There was a time we weren't really making a living doing it.

We did it as a labor of love.

- [Kathy] It's kind of nice now to be making money.

(everyone laughing) - [Tabitha] At least a little.

- [Sueann] Pay the bills.

So a little bit more about your business.

Again, it's in rural Idaho called, Safari Pearl.

You also have Eclectica.

Can you describe Eclectica for our listeners?

- [Kathy] We sell adult novelties.

We have vibrators and strokers for penis owners.

We have lots of lube, the obligatory inflatable penises for bachelorette parties.

- [Sueann] I'm really curious.

What are your products that you sell the most of, out of Eclectica?

- [Kathy] Lube and that first time vibrator.

- [Sueann] I see, 'cause they only need one.

- [Tabitha] Well, no, it's.

You buy in an expensive one to try it and then you come back for one, that's going to work more than, you know, 30 minutes.

- [Sueann] There's a good tip.

- [Tabitha] Yeah.

- [Kathy] And you figure out what you, what works for you, what you want.

And our staff is really good at talking to people.

Gauging.

- [Sueann] And normalizing.

- [Tabitha] Yeah, 'cause even people who have the same parts don't want the same sort of stimulation.

- [Sueann] True.

Right.

And then, so I could describe the store.

There's gaming on like the left side, when you first walked in and all kinds of wonderful games.

And then there, well, during Halloween there's costumes on the right side but there's also a lot of books, comic books, anime.

And then in the back.

- [Kathy] In the back, we've got Eclectica.

- [Sueann] There you go.

So, you know, kids can be in the front, have no idea.

Cause I've taken my kids there, perusing the comics and whatnot.

And I'm now I'm curious.

Have you heard that Adam and Eve are gonna be opening up here.

- [Tabitha] They already have.

- [Sueann] They have, does that bother you at all?

- [Kathy] You know, people go, they check out Adam and Eve, they see what they have in stock.

They see the prices.

They come over to our store.

- [Sueann] They window shop, Kathy.

- [Kathy] They window shop and I think our staff is more comfortable with sex And our selection is definitely far deeper in certain departments.

And if you're trying to appeal and bring in trans customers and you have one packy and no binders and nothing for trans women as well.

- [Sueann] Just for our listener who may be hearing the word packer for the first time, I assume this is to tuck in the penis?

So you're clear and smooth.

- [Tabitha] No, actually a packer is to give a bulge and give you a nice package.

- [Sueann] Oh, thank you.

Damn it.

I'm sorry.

I was going the wrong way.

- [Kathy] Yeah.

No, a gaff is what you use to, to smooth out.

- [Sueann] And a packer gives you cojones.

- [Kathy] Yes.

We cater to a broader market.

- [Tabitha] Well, and you know, really, I mean, think about it when you have a, a shoe store in a mall, you'll have a competing shoe store open right across the way, because that's going to allow their customers to increase cognitive dissonance and know that they've made the right choice.

So actually another store is a good thing.

- [Sueann] Well, this is a key about capitalism, right?

Is competition but I have a question for you about what they call rainbow capitalism.

Have you heard this?

So, there's a cause, gay rights and you have your rainbow symbol.

And then it gets, what I would say is co-opted by the capitalist machine.

So we make things for you to buy, but it's not necessarily money going back to a cause it's just to make somebody money.

What do you think about rainbow capitalism?

- [Kathy] You know, Adam and Eve has the poster in their window with the rainbow that says we're inclusive, but they have one packer on the wall for the trans man and it's white.

And that is not the skin tone we sell the most of in our store.

So you can put a sign on your door, you can put a sign in the window and you can paint a rainbow on it.

But at the end of the day, are you serving that community?

- [Sueann] Tabitha and Kathy, thank you so much for joining us for Traverse Talks.

It was really great conversation.

- [Kathy] This was delightful.

- [Tabitha] Yeah.

Thanks for inviting us.

- [Sueann] Absolutely.

(upbeat music) - [Sueann] That's Tabitha Simmons and Kathy Sprague with TabiKat Productions and Safari Pearl in Moscow, Idaho.

Thanks for listening to Traverse Talks.

I'm Sueann Ramella.

(upbeat music)