(upbeat music) - Recently my colleague, Mary Gamba, who is the co-anchor of our sister series "Lessons in Leadership."

Mary and I sat down and talked with Dr.

Ralph Gigliotti, who is the author of a book called "Post-Crisis Leadership."

I'm a student of leadership, try to understand it, and particularly the mistakes I make as a leader, post-crisis leadership, resilience, renewal, and reinvention in the aftermath of disruption.

And he’s also affiliated with Rutgers University as a professor there in organizational leadership.

Important conversation.

Let's check it out.

- Ralph, good to see you.

- Hi, Steve.

Thanks for having me.

Nice to see you and Mary.

- You got it.

Hey, first of all, define disruption.

- We're dealing with a lot of disruption across our higher ed sector and across the country.

And I think when we talk about disruption, it's sort of a deviation from or impact on our shared experience, our shared set of values, our shared set of principles.

It's a disruption in sort of how we understand ourself and our relationship to others.

- Yeah, in the book, you talk about the fact that, and again, I'm a student of crisis leadership.

I wrote a book a few years back, published by Rutgers University Press.

- Absolutely.

I've read it.

- It's called, What Were They Thinking?

It's all about crisis communication.

But in your book, which is really interesting, it's like, okay, we're dealing with the crisis, the disruption, gotta get through it.

You talk about what the heck happens after.

What do you mean by leadership after the fact, Ralph?

- Yes, Steve, so there's a lot, as you know from your own research, a lot written on how to prepare for crisis and manage risk, and then certainly a lot of growing literature in terms of what to do in the midst of crisis, in the midst of that disruption, where I wanted to contribute to the conversation was really on the leadership imperative and the aftermath of the disruption.

So what are those post-crisis leadership imperatives?

- What are some of the keys to being the best leader one can be when the wave has subsided for the disruption/crisis?

Please.

- I think there are a few things.

One, how do you encourage learning?

So what are the ways in which you as a leader are encouraging learning across your teams, across your divisions, across your organization, to debrief what you just lived through in preparing for what inevitable disruption might come next?

How are you tapping into the resilience, the resilience of your communities, in weathering the crisis that you're currently undergoing and also building resilience for whatever might come next?

I also talk a lot about meaning making.

What are the ways in which leaders are using language and narrative to construct meaning in the aftermath of these events that sometimes are senseless or lack meaning.

Advancing renewal, so what are the ways in which we're healing and moving beyond the crisis itself?

And all of that really speaks to the importance of the leader and being able to sort of tap into the change that might be possible in the aftermath of crisis.

So what are the ways in which you can pursue reinvention.

- Now, Mary, how much do you and I as leaders of our organization are, particularly our not-for-profit production company in the midst of COVID, which millions of other people were not only trying to survive, but then the aftermath.

We've been dealing with the aftermath for years now and asking ourselves, what have we learned from that?

How have we changed, how we've evolved, et cetera, and how do we prepare for the potential again?

And we've become a totally different organization.

Pick it up from there.

Mary.

- We truly have.

And Ralph, one of the areas that you talked about when you talked about the five core leadership principles when dealing with a crisis is, and I just wanna look at my notes, inspiring growth.

And what was strange for all of us is that when COVID happened, when we were all transitioning, pivoting, trying to figure out, all right, how are we gonna deal with this, so many of us still continue to grow, evolve.

Talk about that trait, if you will, or that part of dealing in a crisis, inspiring growth.

How do you do that while you're also dealing with a crisis?

Why don't you just wanna put your head in the sand?

- I'd say it, oh, well, how tempting of a tendency it is to do just that when you're triaging whatever's in front of you in the moment.

I think the real opportunity here, embedded in crisis, disruption, uncertainty, are to figure out what are those growth points?

What are those opportunities where we can rethink how we're approaching core functions?

What are the ways in which we can think about who we're becoming as an organization as a result of what we've endured?

And so that reminds us of that twofold focus of crisis.

There's danger, there's fear, there's uncertainty, there's risk, but there's also opportunity.

And that opportunity has to be leveraged by those who are called upon to lead.

- How and when did you become fascinated by leadership, particularly this aspect of leadership and disruption/crisis?

- Great question.

So I as an undergraduate student leader in my institution, we sort of experienced a crisis.

So that gave me a front row seat into how an organization comes together in the midst of crisis, went on to do my master's and then my PhD where I was studying crisis at our alma mater, Steve, at Rutgers where I did my PhD.

And really looking at crisis leadership across higher education.

One of the themes that came out in the research I did was this sort of counter-cultural need for agility that educational organizations often are organized around consensus, collaborative decision making, and crises threaten that.

They require urgent, swift, well coordinated responses.

So I've really devoted a lot of my career to helping build capacity for educational leaders who are seeking to engage in effective crisis leadership.

And certainly, you know, COVID what punctuated the importance for having leaders who are well equipped to respond to the pressures of our time.

- But you know what, Mary just had a son graduate a while back from college, we did as well.

She has one in college now.

We do as well.

And I keep thinking, okay, so higher ed experience the crisis during COVID, it is got another whole different set of disruptions/mini-crisis, and maybe not mini, and dealing with the federal government right now, dealing with questions of academic independence, dealing with questions of economics, excuse me, how the heck can you begin to plan for what you're gonna be when you get through this, when you're trying to keep your head above water and pay the bills and keep your stu... How the heck can you do that when you're trying to survive?

- Yeah.

It's such a timely point.

And some are suggesting that we're living through a state of polycrisis right now for all the reasons you just mentioned, sort of figuring out what's the main source of the issue.

I think there, there are a couple of things.

One is to go back to principles.

Talk a lot about values-based leadership being particularly important during times of crisis.

What do we stand for and what are the ways in which those values will help serve as a guide for how we're going to weather the turbulence of our times?

I think the second is to make sure that you're taking care of your people.

That these are trying times and crisis leadership really contest leadership teams and organizations.

So what are the ways in which we're understanding the pressures of our moment, taking care of one another?

And that's the process of resilience as well as we're caring for one another and trying to figure out a coordinated response to the various challenges of time.

- Hey, Mary, you know, it's an interesting point, as Ralph talks about this, I wouldn't call it a crisis, but even our organization, excuse me, when we're facing, hey, the economy's what it is, there's consolidation going on in organization, so we get anxious.

I wouldn't call it a crisis, Mary.

We get anxious about the fundraising part.

It can create tension among team members, but Ralph's talking about taking care of each other during that time.

Mary does that resonate for you?

- It totally resonates.

And Ralph, I'm sure you agree, it's about lifting one another up and it's about being vulnerable without panicking and running around and saying the sky is falling.

And there is that fine line.

And I would love for you to talk about that a little bit more.

How do you keep that level of optimism during a crisis as a leader, as Steve often says, it's important to show that you're a human being, that you're vulnerable, but people around you also wanna see, that they want you to say things are gonna be okay.

Where does that balance come in?

- Fascinating.

I mean, I think, when you think about the work of leadership as a communicative process, there's the leader as performer and the leader as human.

And I think both of those domains come into play during times of crisis.

So certainly to be authentic, to know what you stand for, to ensure your teams and organizations understand the criteria that you're using to make the decisions you're making as a leader are really important.

But how often do we hear of individuals reflecting on their leaders during times of crisis?

And what are they looking for?

Optimism, presence, hope, and how critical it is for leaders to show up in these moments in ways that do exactly what you just said, Mary, lift others up, try to envision what that desire future state might be, and harness the opportunities that might be made possible as a result of the storms we're navigating today.

- Ralph, let me just push back a little bit.

How the heck, our people are looking for confidence, as Mary said, optimism, but then we're also looking for vulnerability and honesty.

So here's the question.

For those of us in leadership positions who know that we're ultimately responsible for everyone on the team getting a paycheck every two weeks, having health insurance for our people, having a pension plan for our people, creating a work environment that makes sense for our people with their personal and family lives.

How about if the leader is scared to death?

How about if the leader is not sure about the future, not overly confident about the future?

When people don't wanna hear you're scared, you're nervous, you're feeling vulnerable, you're worried yourself.

Basically, I think at times, being a great leader means faking it.

You say.

- Interesting.

- Literally faking it.

I'm not gonna tell you how I really feel.

I'm not gonna tell you what I really think.

I'm not gonna tell you how worried I am because if I do, it permeates the organization and then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Go ahead.

- Sure.

Yeah.

Well, I think, I mean, inviting some degree of vulnerability is a way to humanize the leader- - I call strategic vulnerability.

But go ahead.

- That's, I think that's exactly right, and I think people can see through it when you're portraying confidence but you're shaken at your core.

And so I think a little bit of vulnerability, especially when you're dealing with polycrisis or crises, that are threatening, that are disruptive, that shake us to our core.

I think understanding the vulnerability and acknowledging it is clear, but it's the invitation for a leader to show up and to help move the organization forward even when the future's uncertain.

And this is where I think the shared leadership, Steve, becomes so important because we often sort of put the burden on the one leader who we're looking to sort of create, and charge forward in the midst of the crisis.

And how often is it the team, the whole coming together to bounce ideas off of one another, to envision that desire future state.

- Mary, we're gonna talk behind Ralph's back when we let him go in a good way.

But I will tell you, but I'll say this too.

I often do think even though leadership has changed, even though AI has changed our world, technology, et cetera, all these multiple disruptions, I do think in the end, certain people in certain positions as leaders can feel very alone.

And somewhat, I'm sure on some level am I projecting?

Yeah, absolutely.

But I know I'm not alone.

Hey, listen, Ralph, this is a fascinating book.

It's called Post-Crisis Leadership, Resilience, Renewal, and Reinvention in the Aftermath of Disruption.

Ralph, good stuff.

Thanks for joining us.

- Thank you, Steve.

Thank you, Mary.

- You got it.

I'm Steve Adubato.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

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