(jaunty music) - [Announcer] "A Slice of the Community" is made possible by the support of the First Horizon Foundation.

- Hello and welcome to another episode of "A Slice of the Community."

I'm your host, Jerome Moore.

And today we are joined by Metro Arts Executive Director Daniel Singh and the director of the Elmahaba Center, Lydia Youslef.

How y'all doing?

- Good.

- Thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having us.

- Thank you for coming on here and ready to really talk about being anti-racist in the arts.

And so, Lydia, I wanted to throw this first question to you.

When you hear anti-racist in the arts, what does that mean?

How does that hit you?

- Yeah, because I have a master's in Middle Eastern studies, the first thing I think of is the way we need to rethink how we think about the arts.

A lot of times, we see arts as something fun.

It's a cool painting, it's a cool trip to the museum.

And we don't really deconstruct the power dynamics in art, how art has been used historically to subjugate peoples in colonialism, how art has been robbed from communities.

And communities can't connect to their history, migration, narrative stories.

And how art can be used by communities to empower themselves as well.

So it's really important for me when we think about art, that we think about the power dynamics, that we don't consider it as something neutral and just a museum is a museum and don't think about the history of who set up museums and how unnatural that history is, or the unnatural history of concert halls, and how typically other societies have formed societies and narratives around the arts that are not a performance hall or a museum.

- Right, I'm gonna give you that same question, Daniel.

When you think about being anti-racist in the arts, how does that hit you?

How does that make you feel?

- Sure, so I've been working with our consultant, Justin Lang, and he's been helping us look at some of these historical markers.

And the arts as a term didn't get coined till about 1600 1700 century, right?

And it was happening as colonization was happening.

So they had to create a narrative by which they could be oppressive to large bodies of indigenous peoples across the world, and somehow say, "What we're doing is okay," and arts was the way in which they could start doing it.

So what we know as the arts is a very Eurocentric approach, universal, neutral.

And all of those things are not how the global majority communities practice it, right?

It's very place based, it's based on a practice.

It's for Harvest Festival, it's for naming a child.

It's your grandmother's recipe, it's your uncle weaving.

So it's very community oriented as opposed to something you sit and in a theater, that the Eurocentric idea of arts.

So that's what I think about that.

And for me, also, anti-racism in the arts is the arts are not neutral in this, right?

We've taken apart in the racist practices.

So I think about how I am complicit in this practice.

How do I fix that?

How do I always listen to people telling me, "What you're doing is racist," and not take it as a bad thing?

I need them to tell me that so I can fix it, right?

So that's the way I come to the anti-racist practice in arts.

- Well, and I wanna get to that too, because you're in the system, right?

You're in the metro arts system that may have been complicit to that racism for centuries, decades, many years, right?

And so I wanna come back to that.

But Lydia, someone that founded her own organization, Specifically for those communities that speak Arabic, did that come out of a need that you've seen that it wasn't a space, there wasn't voices in the arts for the Arabic communities that are here in middle Tennessee, in Nashville to say, "I need to create something with that representation for people that look like I do, come from a background and speak a language that I speak as well?"

- Yeah, yeah.

Definitely, when we started, we hit the ground with direct services and automatically we were...

Especially because COVID hit just... We were less than a year old.

And community members were out of a job.

A lot of them had to stay home.

And that's when I got a lot of calls about, well, I'm an artist, I can do anything with my hands.

I can perform or I can connect with other people, we just need a space for connection.

And there became a call for us to do a lot more of that work.

And after we kind of got through the big end of the lockdown in 2020, in 2021, I contacted Metro Arts to see where I could fit in for our community members, knowing that I didn't even know what Metro Arts was until very recently, that there were grants made in the city for artists.

And I, from the staff, got a lot of pushback at the time in 2021 because we were not an arts organization.

And I said, "But I know a bunch of artists.

They have so many art projects.

None of the other orgs that you're funding are doing this, so why are we being told we can't get this funding?

Also, that we're contributing to that fund."

So it was very disappointing and it kind of started this whole work around how important the arts are to seeing Arabs not as just factory workers and hotel workers who are building this city, but people who have choirs and people who have art forms that they want to preserve here that are thousands of years old and we don't wanna see them vanish in the United States, it's such a shame.

- Yeah, because I can see the interesting dynamic with that, maybe contentious dynamic 'cause as a nation, we can be very anti-Arabic.

And so you mix that in with creative arts, and which is you're essentially kind of designed and boxed in.

It's like, "Well, okay, these are Arab community members that are trying to do art, (hums) let's give them more pushback and barriers to that."

And I'm interested on your thoughts on that, Daniel, being now the executive director of Metro Arts.

When you hear Lydia's story, trying to get that type of funding from an organization like Metro Arts and having that pushback.

- So there's a term in ballet for a position called arabesque, and connects it to the calligraphy of Arabic language.

It's so beautiful and flowing and graceful that they're saying that this ballet position is like Arab calligraphy, right?

And so there's this pattern of taking, extracting, but not giving credit or giving back that happens in us.

And it happens to all of us.

I'm complicit, and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.

I'm complicit in that too.

And so for me, when I hear that, it's like, well, how do we address it?

And for us in Metro Arts, I think of it as this like three or four things.

First we have to reframe the narrative, right?

It's not just neutral or universal.

There are particular histories attached to everything we do.

Second is how do we redistribute the power, right?

She shouldn't have to come and ask, we should be out there.

If you look at what the health department's doing, they have social workers who go out into the community to see what the community need is.

So why isn't Metro Arts doing that?

Why is someone asking and then being told no, right, too?

And then also, again, going back to the new Eurocentric concept of arts, like it can only hop happen in a theater, it can only happen in this way.

Whereas an organic gathering of people coming together and creating art is not seen as fitting a model, right?

So those are all racist structures in place in a system.

And then connecting it back to even other local issues, right?

We had never funded the Fisk Jubilee Singers in the history of Metro Arts, right?

150-year-old legacy organization.

We have never funded the gallery that Jamal Sheets runs at Fisk, right?

So this- - How does that happen?

- That's what I wanna know, right?

- Yeah, how does that happen?

- And so as part of reframing and redistributing power, we wanna shift resources to communities that have been kept out of Metro- - Oh, wait a minute, now.

Hold on, wait a minute.

You wanna reshift power and resources to marginalized communities?

Stop it.

- That's the work, right?

- No, don't you... You outta control.

That's too radical.

- Speaking again about Justin Lang's work, there was a philanthropy recently that went through this internal strategizing work when they talked about how can we better anti-racist.

And the philanthropy decided they should just disband and give the money to the native communities in that region, rather than just having a land acknowledgement and continuing the practice as is, and then just being inclusive, right?

So often people put DEIJ and anti-racism in the same conversation and it's not, right?

DEIJ is like working and co-opting diversity, equity, inclusion and justice into a White supremacist structure.

And anti-racism is saying, "Can we create a new structure?

Can we go back to ancestral practices?"

And so that's what's happening and that's what I think of as anti-racism.

And I'm looking to people in the community, like the Elmahaba Center, like Black Nashville Assembly, like Liberated Grounds, like Elisheba's North Nashville Arts Coalition.

The artists are doing the work.

I need to catch that last train before it leaves the station, otherwise we will be extinct as an organization and irrelevant to the community.

- When you hit that structure shift, Lydia, as somebody who runs a organization that amplifies artists in Nashville specifically, do you think that'd be pushback to what Daniel is trying to do and wants to do?

And then as a community as a whole, how do we support that?

- Yeah, I think there are major implications to what Daniel and his team are trying to do now to all of Metro.

And this is why we've seen such strong pushback, because there's always been a voice coming out and saying, "Hello, what's happening is not right.

And let's take a step forward."

And Metro has systems in place to clamp it down.

And this is one effort that is still going.

So I do have hope for that.

And I think the narrative around... We still have commissioners who strongly believe that our communities need them and we need them to be on our side.

Part of the reason why I never applied, 'cause I was told when we couldn't apply for general operating funds to just apply for Thrive, at the time it was $9,500 and a lot of strings attached to it.

And I told them, "This is as if I had prepared the full meal for you, invited you to my house, hosting everything, and when I said, 'You know what, after all of that, I'd love just a piece of that little bread for myself, to sit and join you at the table.'"

And I was told by the commission and the art monopolies here in Nashville and the government as a whole, "How dare you ask for a crumb."

- Yeah, how dare you, yeah.

- Yeah, when I had made our taxes have built this fund for us to use, in essence.

And that's what I told them back in 2021 why I would not apply for Thrive, because it's condescending and it continues a power dynamic that people of color in particular, but also even local White artists, have to settle for less.

That they can build all this wealth for a city that calls itself Music City, where people come specifically for the arts, and specifically to come see these local artists and we get nothing.

So I only applied because Daniel's equitable change came through.

He took the first step and said, "I'm not going to treat local artists like they're second-class citizens or that they don't report, or that they're stealing funds from the government.

I'm going to treat them like they know what they're doing in their city.

'cause they've been doing the labor.

So that trust and that really acknowledgement of the long history that local artists have had here, to be resilient and say, "You don't have to be resilient anymore, we are going to take care of you," was such a groundbreaking thing that that was the first time we applied for funding.

But unfortunately, the rest is history.

- It wasn't always that easy, right?

So in the first grant editing, I was making major mistakes, right?

I was talking about harm reduction for large organizations.

And Lydia called me out and she said, "What about the communities that have been kept out of this for years?"

And that was the calling out.

And I have to be accountable.

And so she holds me accountable, and the artists here hold me accountable.

It's not an easy, let's go get a beer after this kind of thing.

Every time I make a mistake, I learn.

And Lydia was gracious enough to teach me.

- And Nashville need those type of decision makers to be held accountable in that way, right?

And I think it's really easy for us here in Nashville, because it's still very much a big town, right.

For those who live here, who's been here, it's pretty much a big town.

And so the impact can really happen really quick and fast.

But also, people can be kind of hesitant to hold leaders accountable because of the close proximity.

Oh, that's my friend Daniel.

I really don't want to get on his bad side, even though I need to be really speaking up and saying something to him.

And there's a way to do that, right?

There's a way to call people in instead of calling them out, right?

But I'm glad you did that, Lydia.

Now Daniel, you're in a very peculiar situation here because you're part of a system that has perpetuated this for many, many, many, many years.

But you're a leader now that is totally against that regime.

Is totally for an anti-racist arts community.

And you're flipping over rocks, especially when it comes to money that people don't wanna flip over.

And it's safe to say now, it's very contentious in the community around that.

And what you're doing, right?

How are you feeling right now at this moment about your work, about the other powers that be like the mayor's office and others who may not really want you to be flipping over that anti-racist rock and redistributing actual power and resources to those who have been marginalized and left out?

- Yeah, so I'll do a quick history thing too.

So people often talk about Mohandas Gandhi as this nonviolent, passive protestor, right?

He was disrupting the British trade, huge financial disruption.

He was redistributing power by getting people mobilized in the country and stopping this British empire, right?

And similarly, people often talk about Dr. Martin Luther King as this passive, quiet pastor, hymns, they don't talk about the bus boycott.

Again, it takes the money out of the bus that's operating and he was redistributing power.

He was disrupting the systems, right?

And so for me, somehow when you do that now, they always talk about past leaders like Dr. King or Mohandas Gandhi and say, "Why can't you be like them?

They were docile, they were pacifists."

These men or women were not pacifists, right?

They were shaking things up.

So I think you have to have a stomach of iron when you come to this work.

And I also know that when I signed the letter of acceptance, I'm part of the system, right?

So I have to have this constant check-in with me.

Am I feeling like I'm being true to the artists?

Is my integrity strong with the artists?

And if I feel like I can answer yes, then that's what's worth it for me.

I was at the Arts Administrators of Color conference this past fall, we took five people from Nashville to that.

Of the about 350 to 375 attendees, fully about 80 to 100 directors, program managers.

directors had been brought in during the Black Lives Matter change when everyone put out these manifestos and said they're gonna address change.

And then about 75% of them had been let go in three years time.

So I see the writing on the wall, it's gonna grind me down, but I knew that coming in, right?

So I can't act surprised.

- Job security.

A lot of times those with your ideology and your mindset that are working and shaking among systems don't stay in those systems long.

Do you feel like your job security as executive director at Metro Arts is at jeopardy?

Do you care?

Or do you feel like you're getting support from the mayor's office and your commissioners, right?

That say, "Hey, we see what you're doing and we wanna be a part of that"?

- So I don't have any job security, right?

The directors are not part of the Civil Service Commission, so I'm an at will employee, so they can let me go at any time.

And I know that that's a risk.

But again...

So I don't have any security, right?

It probably will go away, my job will probably go away as I work towards more anti-racist practice.

But that's not a fault of the system, that is the design of the system, right?

No directors have protection, and so then change can't be anchored.

And so for me, I really have to hope that the artist can hold onto those changes and make sure it doesn't disappear if I disappear.

And support for me is coming from the artist.

And that's all I need.

That's what gives me life right now, is to know that the artists feel like I'm in the right area.

I'm still making a lot of mistakes, I'm tripping up every day.

But if I have the artists' support, then that's what's valuable.

- Lydia, what does that say about Nashville?

If we say we're a progressive or a liberal city, right?

That's what we say.

That's what a lot of... That's how we coin, right?

We are a blue do in a red state, many say, right?

But you have an executive director like Daniel who's trying to really do that work and be radical and maybe he's let go because of it.

What does that say about Nashville?

What does that say about our other leaders who maybe are staying silent or not in support of that?

- Yeah, I do wanna name that it's not...

I didn't find it ironic that we had a Nazi rally this past weekend in Nashville.

And I think many people are going, like we do in Nashville, toss the blame and say, "Well, it's the state's issue," right?

We have a very right wing state, so that's why we have a right wing fascist rally that's going on in Nashville.

And I think that that ignores a lot of the systemic issues in Nashville.

I don't think it's ironic that we have the most progressive council elected thus far and we have not made any systemic change in Nashville that really... We still don't have Arabic translation anywhere (laughs) in terms of the Metro council meetings, in terms of just on the ground.

We are still far behind in equity and we still have...

The health department had their health equity bureau collapse.

We had Fusses, which was pushed through illegally by Metro Legal and the mayor's office had to settle that.

So we have several background initiatives that are happening in the government that I think people, if we are not honest about what's going on in Nashville, if we're not honest, that we can't just stay stagnant, that creates poisonous water and that creates what happens this past Saturday.

We have to be able to stand up for these initiatives.

We have to be able to look up equity initiatives and we have to be able to address them honestly, (laughs) without a sense of we're going to hurt people's feelings or we're going to only be self-serving as well.

- Can I just say that- - Yeah, go ahead.

- I don't think what I'm doing is radical.

I think it's too late.

This should, all of these things should have been happening long ago.

We're still working in the incremental phase.

If I was doing radical, we would've just completely changed over, right?

I'm making really, really incremental changes.

And that's the narrative reshift we need to make, right?

Because people say that I'm doing something radical and these are mistakes.

- [Jerome] You've been called the colonizer.

(laughs) - Yeah, so these are mistakes that should never have happened.

I'm trying to address mistakes.

I haven't gotten to the place where we were actually redistributing or restorative justice.

We haven't gotten there.

We're still fixing mistakes.

We have to acknowledge, fix the mistakes, and then we move into the restorative practice area, right?

And so I wanna be careful that we don't call ourselves radical when I'm not even scratching the surface of that, because there are people like Lydia doing that work on the ground.

I'm not in that.

I have a salary.

I have health insurance, I have protections.

And there are people on the ground who don't have any of that.

= But you're willing to risk that, though?

- Yes.

Yes.

- And so I think- - And then that is a risk.

- Yeah, that's a risk, right?

Some people...

I think that that comfortability is one of those...

It can be a disease to movements, right?

Because if I get this job, you know, $100,000, $200,000, whatever it is, it's like, "Hey, we'll give you this money, but anti-racism, ah, let's not do that right now, let's..." And some people take that route, some people take that comfortability and think about themselves because of the fear of I don't wanna lose this paycheck, this security, this livelihood that I've built out of this paycheck, right?

And so I think you being willing to one, speak about it, but also try to put in practical practices to combat it, if that's not radical, I don't know... Am I wrong?

If that's not radical, I don't know what is.

But I want to kind of shift a little bit to what have you been able to do to collaborate with other art organizations to amplify and uplift them, like Lydia and others through Metro Arts?

What have you seen collaborations that has worked thus far?

- So we've went through a grants editing process where we brought the local artists and arts organizations in to have us simplify the application process and the reporting process, like Lydia was saying, was the reporting burden is so hard on small amounts of money, how do you fix that?

So the local voices who are the taxpayers who are funding the government get to be part of the decision making process, that was one step.

And I'm really listening to what's, again, the local artists and arts organizations are doing, Black Nashville Assembly is doing a lot of this work.

Elmahaba Center, Liberated Grounds, North Nashville Arts Coalition.

So I've been learning from them and letting them tell me what is needed on the ground, because I've just come here, right?

I kind of assume I know what needs to happen.

So these organizations and several others that I'm not mentioning right now, I'm really learning from them.

And I think the other things, simple processes we've been doing is making sure all our panels are open call.

Until I got here, sometimes staff would just make recommendations and pick the panel and we said, "No, we're gonna have a rubric, we're gonna put an open call, so always anyone can apply and be a part of the panel process."

And we're also making sure that there's a grants panel that advises, makes recommendations to the grants committee.

So there's multiple levels of checks and balances in which the public gets to be a part of the decision making process.

So it's not just a few have the power and connections.

- Lydia, speaking about the public and community, what would you want community to know about arts in Nashville and how they can participate?

And being anti-racist in arts through your organization, but just others, but just every day people that are watching and listening to this that have never thought about arts and racism being combined and also, am I participating in that, right?

What would you say to those individuals?

- Yeah, I would say follow Arts Equity Nashville on Instagram.

It's a collection of artists and allies who put on teach-ins and informationals.

And the website is super informative.

So if you want the full rundown, especially of the arts history in Nashville, that's a good place to start.

My one pet peeve is colonialism wouldn't work (laughs) if there weren't sellouts from communities of color.

Because what can White supremacy give us?

(laughs) So they have to be able to pick and choose people who are self-interested and self-centered to kind of ally themselves.

So what I would say is don't be put on by the frills of, oh, this is someone, a person of color who knows this and this and this and about the arts.

I would say focus on the narrative and ask yourself the positionality of this person, their funding resources, and their class analysis.

And then also, what people of color they are bringing in or not bringing in and why.

So again, don't take anything as neutral.

Don't take anything as identity politics.

I'm going to listen to this Black person because they are Black.

And take everything as how do I see the bigger picture here and how do I see the narrative that is at the heart of this, yeah.

- Daniel, in 30 seconds, can you tell me (Lydia laughing) how would you measure your effectiveness of being anti-racist, as executive director of Metro Arts, when it's all said and done, 30 seconds.

- If we have more artists of color, the global majority participating in the processes from the beginning to the funding process, to all of the public artwork we do, then I would say we've done a successful job of that.

- Well, look, I wanna thank you all both for being here and really unpacking being anti-racist in the arts and really unpacking some really necessary conversations, some things that needs to be talked about.

So thank you all both.

We have to do it again sometimes.

- Yes.

(Lydia laughing) - Yeah, I hope y'all enjoyed it.

- It's a large conversation, so.

- Yeah, just a bit, but like it's a conversation, that's where it starts and hopefully we got people minds thinking about arts in a different way in Nashville and how they can participate in a solution, all right?

And I want to thank you all for checking out another episode of "A Slice of the Community."

That's it, thank you, appreciate it, have a good one.

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