- 2024 is an election year in Wyoming, and it's the job of the secretary of state, Chuck Gray, to supervise the primary and general elections.

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming PBS.

We'll talk with the secretary of state.

This is "Wyoming Chronicle."

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- Welcome to "Wyoming Chronicle."

Pleased to be joined today by Wyoming secretary of state, Chuck Gray.

Secretary, welcome to the show.

- Oh, thank you, Steve.

Thanks for having me, it's a pleasure to be on.

- We're here in the original Capitol building in what's now called the ceremonial office of the secretary of state.

People who might remember visiting before this huge renovation took place could remember that you walk into the rotunda area and there's the secretary of state, the superintendent, the governor's office.

But now things have changed and you really don't get to work in here very much anymore, do you?

- Well, we have our main office in the Herschler Building, Herschler East.

But we have a ceremonial office here, and love being in both offices.

- You were a member of the legislature before you had this job, your office is in the Herschler East.

And that's a fair distance, it maybe a quarter mile away possibly, well, maybe not that much, but it's a long way away.

And I've seen you literally running back and forth from your office, which is where the big staff is.

You said how many?

- 31, 31.

- 31, so couldn't really accommodate them all here.

But during the legislature, it's good to have a place where you can come in, close the door, speak to a lawmaker if you needed to, that sort of thing.

- Exactly, and I served in the legislature for six years.

Served in a district encompassing East Casper, portions of East Casper.

And that really segued into our work as secretary of state, our work on the voter ID law.

So just been an enormous honor.

And both offices have different roles, and I think that over here during the legislature, we spend a lot of time over here.

- Yeah, you were elected secretary of state in 2022.

You take office in, early in 2023.

We're now here in April of 2024.

So you've been on this job for a year and a few months.

Now, it's your department's job to conduct the 2024 primary and general elections in Wyoming.

Big job.

It's the smallest state in the union, but it's still a significant task, isn't it?

- Well, it's an enormous responsibility, and one that I take very seriously.

The secretary of state is the chief election official for the State of Wyoming.

And of course the county clerks are the chief election officials for the respective counties.

- Sort of the secretaries of state for the counties in a way.

It's an interesting way of looking at it.

National elections are conducted through the states.

State elections conducted largely through the counties.

These county clerks are VIPs in Wyoming, aren't they?

- [Chuck] We work a lot with the county clerks.

- [Steve] Sure.

- And we wanna retain that our elections are managed at the State level.

And that's unfortunately something that DC has been trying to reverse, that tradition, and going back to our Constitution, and it's codified in statute also.

And there have been efforts to try to reverse that, but it's very important we retain that elections are run by the respective states.

- Over time, over 200 years plus, every state does it a little bit differently.

Now, people shouldn't think that the mighty secretary is here perched over every single election decision.

There's an elections department in your office, one of several things that your office has to do.

But this year, it's on center stage.

What's your role?

How specifically do you get into election stuff as the secretary?

- Well, as the chief election official for the State of Wyoming, we deal a lot with policy, and then assistance for the counties that are doing a lot of the day-to-day work in their respective counties.

So we assist the counties, but then we also are tasked with uniformity.

And that's a very important thing in Title 22, the election code.

Is that Wyoming elections are to be uniform.

And that's what our office is tasked as well with providing for.

- What does uniform mean from your chair?

- Well, the way I think about it is that from county to county, that these processes are largely going to be uniform and maintain that structure placed in Title 22 and also in the secretary of state's rules.

For example, the registration process.

There's a flaw in that registration process, that there's not a verification of residents, and also that non-resident designations on licenses, which is what illegal immigrants often receive in certain jurisdictions, that those wouldn't be valid for registering to vote.

So that's a little bit of an example, sort of a slice of life on what that looks like.

That our registration principles, for example, which are laid out in Title 22, and then also further elucidated on in rule, that they're gonna be uniform across all 23 counties in Wyoming.

- Before we came on air, we were talking a little bit about some things that require statutory authority, meaning the legislature passes a law.

You're talking about something that your office can regulate on its own without the legislature being involved.

- Well, the statute lays out that proof of identity is needed.

And then it also sets out that we have rulemaking authority to provide for uniformity across Title 22.

So if you look at the definition of identity, it includes that residence at a station that is made in the voter registration form.

And so that's our statutory authority for providing for those rules, in addition to the fact that the statute says that we have the authority.

In fact, we're mandated to verify the information on the voter registration form.

- I've always been curious to know how the dates for the elections are set.

I think everybody understands the general election is the first Tuesday in November.

In my voting lifetime, I remember voting in primary elections, it had been in July and August, and I think in September.

And I came across an account of one that had been in May.

Some states have had their primaries weeks ago already around the nation.

What's the primary election date this year?

- Primary election date is August 20th.

- [Steve] August 20th.

- And that's in Wyoming statute.

- [Steve] Yeah, it's the first Tuesday after the third Monday after something.

I mean, it's there for a reason, and that's been set for a while now.

There's also, before the primary election, a filing period.

If you're gonna run in a primary, you have to file your intentions to do that by a certain date as well.

Does that have something to do with when the primary is?

It's usually in May, I know that.

- Yes, in statute, it lays out those deadlines and it sets it based on how many days before the primary.

- [Steve] I see.

- And so it's sort of a cascading effect.

So that, for example, that period is from May 16th to May 31st, this cycle.

- So they have a couple of weeks to file.

I've always assumed the reason that it's a fair amount of time outta the primary, to give 'em a chance to campaign for a while, to inform voters, for voters to be accounted for.

- And that campaign period is so important, Steve.

I love campaigning.

We had a vigorous campaign in 2022 during the primary for the secretary of state's office.

And in Wyoming, it's just so wonderful that grassroots campaigning that you're able to do.

And it is a wonderful element of the Wyoming election process.

- Then usually in August there's another filing period for municipal elections, school boards, college boards, that sort of thing.

I think I know the answer to this question, but you're the secretary of state so I'll ask you.

Why did they get a different primary filing period?

- Those nonpartisan races in Wyoming state law are specifically separated out, and they have that different filing period.

- They're not partisan and there's no primary for those.

- Right, exactly.

- Typically.

These are just the things that the office has to look at all the time to make it run smoothly, to make it uniform, as you say.

- Well, and that's one of the themes, I hope, of our administration, is constant improvement.

And one thing that I think was very important in our campaign is that we can always improve.

And looking at what we've done, our work in the first two sessions since I've been secretary of state, we've brought forward those improvements to Title 22, the election code, and those will be in effect for the 2024 election.

- I wanna ask you about a couple of these significant changes.

One has to do with changing your party affiliation before voting in the primary.

And the other, I believe it just changes the amount of time where you can vote by absentee or mail-in ballot.

Am I right about those two?

- Yes.

- [Steve] You favored both of those changes, right?

- Yes, very important changes.

- Tell me about why it was important from your point of view and the legislature passed it to change the time on the calendar when you could change your party affiliation to vote in the primary.

- I was in the legislature from 2017 to 2022, and we worked a lot on having a major party affiliation deadline.

And in 2023, it was our number one priority for the session, and we brought that through.

And thought it was very important from an election integrity perspective to have a period where there was a lockout on party changes, because the primary is a very important part of the election process everywhere, but particularly in Wyoming.

And so we put in place this lockout period where individuals who are already registered will have to stay in their party, and it's the day before the beginning of the filing period.

And you had seen in terms of application, a lot of individuals crossing over from the Democrat Party into the Republican Party.

We saw it a lot in the 2022 election, up to 15 to 20% of the ultimate electorate.

And I think there was a widespread consensus, we talked about this in the primary in 2022 when I was campaigning.

There was always a widespread consensus that we needed to have that lockout period.

And I think that that May 15th lockout period that we have, the day before the beginning of the filing period is a huge improvement in our election code.

A welcome improvement and a landmark improvement in Title 22.

- I think it's well known among people who are paying attention to Wyoming elections that the gubernatorial election, when Governor Gordon was running in his first primary for governor, it was a busy primary, with four or five qualified candidates.

And I know it's been analyzed, I'm not sure that there's a definitive consensus reached on what the effect was, but it is known that a lot of people switched parties to vote in the Republican election.

Part of that's because that's often in the primary in Wyoming, that's where the action is.

There just aren't that many Democrats running for office now.

But whether it was definitive in that election or not, it makes sense to a lot of people that it might have been, that it might have played a role.

- Mm-hmm, exactly, exactly.

- And I think your point is that the primaries are intended to elect the nominees for each party.

- Right.

- And so the parties ought to be the people who are voting for it.

You can switch if you want, and the people who did that were following the law as it existed then.

That law has been changed now.

Has it been signed by the governor?

- It was allowed to become law by the governor.

- I see.

- We worked really hard to make sure that it wasn't going to be vetoed.

We saw a lot of vetoes in this 2024 session.

A lot that I disagreed with.

But in 2023, that session, he allowed that Bill to become law without his signature.

Very important part of the Wyoming State Constitution, which is that, unlike at the federal level, if the governor does not veto a bill, it is allowed to become law after a certain period elapses.

- Sort of way for the governor to have kind of an in-between opinion.

"I'm not gonna sign this with a flourish, not gonna veto it, but I'm not gonna block it, trying to keep it from becoming law."

So that's in effect now?

- Yes, it's Wyoming State law.

- So if you're a Democrat wanting to vote for a Republican, particularly Republican in the primary, that candidate better announce his intentions to run sooner than he's doing now.

'Cause you can't rely on go up and match the primary filing list, because that'll be too late.

- May 15th is the lockout.

- Right, right.

Now, the other one that I mentioned has to do with the amount of time that Wyoming permits people to vote.

I call it absentee vote by mail.

It used to be a much, am I right in saying this, it used to be a bigger slice of time on the calendar.

You can still do it, still considerable amount of time to do it, but it's compressed now.

- Wyoming used to be tied for the longest of the nation in terms of that early voting period.

- How long could it have been?

- It was 45 days.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So in the state law change, it's now gonna be 28 days.

So it's reduced by about two weeks.

- Why was that important to you as secretary of state?

- Well, I think that it's very important that we have a complete campaign period for individuals to interact with their candidates, to get all the information.

And so I thought that that was really important for us to just reduce that period and to move towards election day voting, which I think is the traditions of our country.

And I think the legislature agreed with us on that.

So they reduced that to 28 days.

And we brought that through with Senator Boner, who was the lead sponsor of that Bill.

Went through the Senate, huge majorities, and also in the House.

And I think that's a welcome improvement.

Now, to be clear, UOCAVA voting is still gonna be 45 days.

- [Steve] Right.

- That is in federal law.

- Say that term again.

- UOCAVA voting.

So it's overseas military ballots.

So that's 45 days, that's in federal law.

But 28 days is the early voting period in Wyoming statute.

- It's an interesting question, isn't it?

I certainly prefer to vote on the day, 'cause it's exciting, it's fun to do.

- Isn't it?

Yeah.

- But there is a timeline-- - In precinct voting.

I mean, I'm concerned about us moving away from precinct voting as well.

- I was gonna ask you about that too, that's happened where we live.

There used to, this is referring to Fremont County.

There used to be 70 or more precincts.

That's a long time ago.

I well remember when there were 33, now there are fewer than 30.

There are a couple of big there voting centers now, where no matter where you live, you come and vote there.

And you can vote where you live, you can vote at any other voting center too.

It's the balancing act between trying to make it easier for people to vote, get people to keep voting, more people to vote.

But also, as you say, it goes against the election day voting surge in a way.

The sort of, I don't mind saying it.

I felt a real feeling of pride walking into my polling place.

But 2016, I had a heart attack, I got life flighted.

I was in the hospital on election day, and I couldn't vote.

Because I hadn't thought of it, I thought, well, I'll go-- - I didn't know that.

- I thought I'd go in and vote in my hometown place.

I wasn't even in the city, and I didn't vote in that election.

So, of course, there are reasons that people might have.

What do you think is a good reason not to vote at your polling place on election day?

- When you talk about excuse absentee voting, where an individual has to provide that reason, that is a model in other states.

And I think there are a lot of advantages to that, because having that full campaign process and then also the security measures that are in place on the day of the election.

For example, voter ID, which is a Bill I brought through the legislature.

I was the lead sponsor on that Bill.

And that Bill is so important, but we've been looking to expand it.

But right now, it applies on the day of the election.

And then also we made a change in the 23 session, where it applies if an individual gets an absentee ballot in person.

There was a little bit of confusion on that.

- Interesting.

- But a mailed absentee ballot does not have voter ID, which is a little bit of a flaw, I'd say, in the statute that we wanna to fix, we've been looking to fix.

But there are many security measures in place on the day of the election that are more difficult to replicate in absentee setting.

And so there are many reasons why it's important for us to emphasize the day of the election.

- There are people who say that restricting this mail-in or absentee voting tends to discourage voter turnout in a time when voter turnout over the past, say 25 to 30 years has been shrinking.

Is that a concern, do you agree with that?

And does it worry you, or are there other remedies to voter turnout?

- I don't think I agree with that.

I think having a vigorous election integrity infrastructure in place actually encourages voter turnout.

And we've talked about that since we started working on voter ID with Clerk Ervin, when he became the Chairman of the County Clerk's Association and I was a member of the legislature.

That these election integrity measures actually increase voter turnout, and that's why we're continuing to work on these issues.

- A problem across Wyoming, I believe in recent elections has been a shortage of the people we call the election judges.

I was telling you before I came on, the first election that I voted in was 1980.

And when I voted in 2022, the very same election judge, meaning the woman who took my information, checked it out, and told me where to go to vote, was the same person 42 years later.

Now, there are a lot of people in her boat.

She's a senior citizen, she's been at it a long time.

And it's been more difficult to replace those.

That's led, I think, to some of this consolidation of precincts, and polling place, and so forth.

Is there anything at the state level that you can do, trying to do, want to do, to encourage people to participate as election judges?

- I really want to encourage individuals to become election judges.

And please contact your county clerk, also you could contact me and then I'll forward you to the county clerks who that's in their jurisdiction to appoint the election judges.

And on our website, sos.wyo.gov, we have the contacts for all of the county clerks.

- And they'll be glad if someone calls, won't they?

- Yes, those election judges are an extremely important part of our election process.

- In a way, it's part of these integrity issues that you're talking about.

If you've got one person who's been there for 12 hours, and it's a busy election, and that person is overwhelmed, it's just more likely that a mistake could be made.

And that's the last thing that that judge wants to do, that that voter wants to have happen, that you want to have happen.

So having a well-staffed polling place is important for that reason alone.

- It's very important we have election judges.

And if anyone has any questions, I encourage them to contact me in our office, or reach out to us and then also your county clerks.

Those contacts are all on our website, and also you can contact our office.

And my cell, which is 251-1372, I give that out.

- The secretary of state just gave his cellphone on statewide television.

- I give that out all the time.

It's very important that I talk to the people of Wyoming.

- [Steve] Interesting.

- I represent you, and so it's very important that I'm available.

So contact me anytime, contact our office and also your county clerks for participating in that role, which is very important.

- In most places election judge is a paid position, right?

You can make a little bit of money doing it.

That is laid out in statute, that formula.

And county clerks through the county commissions are approving that pay as we speak.

They've done a number of those resolutions in counties across the state.

- You've mentioned that you're still involved in, you follow bills in the legislative session.

You like having the ceremonial office here because it makes it easier for you to observe the legislative session.

You were a legislator, sponsored bills, talked about some that now affect your duties as secretary of state.

You hold an elected office.

Is it also a political office as you see it, and should it be that way?

- Well, it's important to note that both the secretary of state and the county clerks are elected offices.

And I think it's very important that that continues.

There was an effort in the last session, as soon as I had been nominated in the primary, before I had even been elected in the general election or taken the oath of office, there are some political individuals that were trying to turn this into an unelected office.

But this goes back to the Wyoming Constitution, where the secretary of state was laid out as an elected office.

The county election officials is an elected office.

And it's very important, 'cause the way the statute reads and also in the constitution, there's a check and balance there with the secretary of state and the clerks.

And I have a great relationship with the clerks.

Clerk Ervin, worked with on a lot of issues, but we disagree a lot as well.

And it's important, I've always encouraged that vibrant discussion about issues.

But I think it's very important for it to remain an elected office.

It goes back to the founding of our state in our constitutional convention, which occurred on the second floor of this building, just upstairs.

And the secretary of state was laid out as an elected official, and also was laid out as the lieutenant governor of the state.

And it's important that those duties continue.

- And as a partisan office, you're elected as a Republican.

And political parties are political parties.

A lot of it depends on the individual.

You certainly haven't been bashful about expressing a political opinion when you have it related to something that affects your job.

- Yeah, nothing wrong with that.

And I think it's very important for individuals to be involved in the republic.

It's one of the things that I hope my time in public service that I can encourage, that active participation in your republic, because that's so important.

It's so important to the success of our republic, and so I think it's important that people actively involve themselves.

- Sure.

Well, we're coming up about a month from the date we're sitting here now, the filing period will be about to begin, and then on we go into the primary and the general.

Satisfied with that process, how it's been going, and what's your predictions for the 2024 elections in Wyoming, just in terms of conducting the process?

- Well, I think it's gonna be a vibrant election cycle.

And I think we have many strong election integrity measures in place.

We're continuing to improve on that, we wanna continue to improve on that.

But the improvements we've made; the ban on crossover voting, the early voting period changes that were made, and voter ID, the Bill, House Bill 75, which I was the lead sponsor on in 2021.

I think we've had enormous improvements in our election processes.

We're gonna continue improving on our election processes.

And I think those election integrity improvements are going to encourage turnout.

And I think we're gonna have a very vigorous process.

I wanna invite individuals to go on our website, sos.wyo.gov.

We have all the deadlines in the election on there, we have our candidate guide for candidates, and many resources for individuals.

All the contacts for not only our office, but also the clerks.

And that's on our election center on the secretary of state's website.

And also our polling place locator.

So that's gonna be-- - Important, 'cause those change from time to time, don't they?

- Yes, and we have an enhanced polling place locator that we're launching for this cycle.

- Good, good.

Well, it's a big job.

You obviously are enthusiastic about your job as the chief elections official, which you need to be.

In the meantime, I appreciate your time, sir, and thanks for being with us on "Wyoming Chronicle".

- Well thanks, Steve.

Thanks for having me.

Anyone out there, please contact me anytime.

Thank you for listening.

And Steve, thanks for having us.

- All right.

- Thank you, thanks.

- Thanks.

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