[TENSE MUSIC] - HELLO AND WELCOME TO COMIC CULTURE.

I'M TERENCE DOLLARD, A PROFESSOR IN THE DEPARTMENT OF MASS COMMUNICATION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT PEMBROKE.

MY GUEST TODAY IS WRITER, ARTIST HOWARD CHAYKIN.

HOWARD, WELCOME TO COMIC CULTURE.

- THANK YOU, TERRENCE.

IT'S REALLY NICE TO BE HERE.

YOU KNOW, I LOVE VISITING THE SOUTH EAST, PARTICULARLY ON ZOOM.

A LOT CAN BE SAID FOR THAT.

- WELL, YOU ALWAYS GET THE BEST WEATHER ON ZOOM.

SO I WANTED TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR CAREER IN COMICS.

YOUR CAREER IS KIND OF INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU SKEWED THE SUPER HEROICS AND WENT MORE TOWARDS NOIR AND ACTION, ADVENTURE AND CRIME, ESPECIALLY IN YOUR SCI-FI SERIES "AMERICAN FLAGG" WHICH HAS SOMEWHAT COME TRUE.

SO I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU, YOU KNOW, KIND OF CAME UPON THE IDEA OF "AMERICAN FLAGG" AND HOW YOU GOT THAT PUBLISHED.

- INTERESTING QUESTION.

I MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION WHEN I WAS A LITTLE BOY, ALL I WANTED TO BE WAS A COMIC BOOK ARTIST, I WANTED TO BE A COMIC BOOK MAN, SINCE I WAS FOUR YEARS OLD.

AND BY THE TIME I GOT INTO COMICS, I WAS GETTING WORK UNDER FALSE PRETENSES.

MY SKILLSET WAS REALLY NOT AVAILABLE TO QUALITY.

I COULDN'T DO WHAT WAS EXPECTED OF ME, IN TERMS OF MAINSTREAM MATERIAL.

AND FRANKLY OF MY GENERATION, MOST OF US WERE NOT PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN SUPERHERO COMICS.

THE ONLY GUY IN MY GENERATION, WHO WAS REALLY ATTUNED TO THAT MATERIAL.

WAS RICHARD BUTLER, AND I DIDN'T HAVE THE SKILLSET.

AND BY THE TIME MY SKILL SET EVOLVED TO THE POINT WHERE ACTUALLY COULD DO THIS WORK WELL, I'VE LOST MY INTEREST AND I'M CONSTANTLY AGAPE AND MY COLLEAGUES, CONTEMPORARIES AND YOUNGER WHO ARE ENTERTAINED BY THIS JUNK, THAT, ENTERTAINED THEM WHEN THEY WERE CHILDREN.

SO I CAME BACK TO COMICS AFTER BEING SORT OF SHOWN THE DOOR, BY THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF MARVEL COMICS, OVER A KERFUFFLE WE HAD.

AND FOR SOME REASON I STILL DON'T KNOW WHY, FIRST COMICS FELT THEY HAD THE CONFIDENCE IN ME TO OFFER ME A SERIOUS AMOUNT OF DOUGH TO CREATE A BOOK FOR THEM.

AND I WAS IN SERIOUS DEBT FOR HAVING WORKED FOR BYRON PREISS, WHO IS CURRENTLY DEAD, BUT I HAVE A FEAR WILL BE BACK SOONER OR LATER.

AND I TOOK UP, TOOK THEM UP ON IT.

AND AGAIN, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THEY CONVINCED ME TO DO THIS.

THE FRANCHISE WAS A POST-HOLOCAUST NEGATIVE UTOPIA OR DYSTOPIA AS BURLESQUE COMEDY.

I WAS, AT THE TIME, AS SERIOUS FASHION PERSON.

I LOVED CLOTHES.

I STILL READ MARGINALLY, SOME SF, AND I WANTED TO DO A KITCHEN SINK BOOK THAT WOULD INCORPORATE ALL OF MY OBSESSIONS AND FANTASIES AND EVERYTHING ELSE, YOU KNOW, MAKE A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW.

AND REALLY, THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN, BUT WHEN I MET, WITH KEN BRUZENAK, WHO I'VE KNOWN FOR DECADES, BUT NOT WELL.

THE TWO OF US REALLY FORGED AN ALLIANCE GRAPHICALLY AND "FLAGG" IS A BOOK THAT STANDS ALONE, AS A GRAPHIC DESIGNER FOR THE SERVICE OF NARRATIVE.

AND I BELIEVE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT IT'S AS OBSCURE AS IT IS, AND IT'S AS FORGOTTEN AS IT IS, IS THAT THE AUDIENCE HAD BEEN INFANTILIZED FROM THE MID 1950S BY THE COMICS CODIFY, WHICH HAD INFANTALIZED MATERIAL AS WELL, AND HAD BEEN PROGRAMMED AND INDOCTRINATED INTO IDENTIFYING THE MATERIAL, WHICH I REGARD IS A MEDIUM AS A GENRE.

AND IT'S BECOME A GENRE NOW HAS BEEN BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE CIVILIAN SUCCESS OF THE MARVEL STAFF IN THE MOVIES AND TELEVISION.

AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS, THE AUDIENCE REALLY CAN ONLY IDENTIFY TROPES, AS OPPOSED TO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT MATERIAL.

IT'S ALSO A VERY PRISSY AUDIENCE IT'S AM AUDIENCE THAT MISTAKES CHASTITY FOR VIRTUE AND PRISSINESS FOR MORAL CLARITY.

THAT PERSISTS TODAY.

AND THEY LIKE PINUPS.

THEY LIKE CUTE FLIRTY, BUT WHEN THE INTRODUCTION OF ACTUAL DESIRE IS INTRODUCED, THEY BECOME VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.

AND THAT, FACT COMBINED WITH THE A COMPLEX HERO WHO IS NOT THE ARCHETYPAL HERO, WITH ONE WOUND.

I MEAN, COMICS IS NOTORIOUS.

LET'S DO A GAY CHARACTER, WHO'S NOTHING MORE THAN BEING GAY, LET'S DO A BLACK CHARACTER, WHO'S NOTHING MORE THAN BEING BLACK.

LET'S DO A JEWISH CHARACTER WHO'S NOTHING MORE.

THE TWO DIMENSIONALITY OF THIS MATERIAL IS DEEPLY PROFOUND.

AND I LIKED THE IDEA OF DOING CHARACTERS WHO CHANGE, AND EVOLVE AND GROW, WHO BECOME DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT "FLAGG" IS ABOUT.

FLAGG IS A GUY WHO COMES IN AND HE'S AN IDIOT.

HE'S NAIVE, HE'S A FOOL.

AND HE LEARNS BY EXPERIENCE TO BE SMART AND TO PLAY THE SYSTEM.

AND THAT'S REALLY HOW THINGS WORK.

I MEAN, THE INSPIRATION, THERE'S MY WIFE, THERE SHE GOES.

THE INSPIRATION REALLY WAS TO CONFLATE "MAVERICK" AND "TERRY AND THE PIRATES" IN A SCIENCE FICTION FRAMEWORK.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT IT WAS.

SO, I LOVE THE ENSEMBLE CAST OF TERRY.

AND I LOVE THE IDEA OF A WISE GUY WHO DOES THE LEAST AMOUNT OF WORK TO ACHIEVE THE MAXIMUM GOALS IN "MAVERICK" THE CHARACTER LOOK, BARELY LOOKS LIKE, REGARDING THE LOOKS, LIKE, AND TO CLOSE WITH THIS, I TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, SIMON'S TAKE, WHICH IS THINK YIDDISH, GO BRITISH.

AND THAT'S, THAT'S WHERE THE CHARACTER IS.

HE'S A JEWISH CHARACTER WHO LOOKS LIKE A WASP, AND THAT'S WHERE IT'S AT.

LONG ANSWER, SHORT QUESTION.

- YOU HAD MENTIONED THAT COMIC AUDIENCES, ESPECIALLY IN THE '80S ARE USED TO SIMPLER STORIES, MORE FOR A YOUNGER AUDIENCE, AND YOU ARE TAKING AN AUDIENCE THAT COULD READ COMICS.

I MEAN, ANYONE COULD READ COMICS AND YOU WERE CREATING, I GUESS, COMICS FOR A, FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHO WANTED TO READ COMICS, BUT WANTED TO HAVE MORE SOPHISTICATED STORYLINES.

SO WERE YOU FACING RESISTANCE FROM FIRST COMICS OR WERE THEY SAYING THAT'S A GREAT IDEA.

- FIRST WAS ALL ON BOARD, AND AGAIN, I REMAIN, UTTERLY MYSTIFIED BY THIS CAUSE I HAD NEVER DONE ANYTHING THAT WOULD JUSTIFY SUCH CONFIDENCE.

THE PEOPLE AT FIRST WERE PALS.

I GOT ALONG WITH THEM VERY WELL.

THEY ENCOURAGED ME IN MY ENTHUSIASMS AND I GOT NO NEGATIVE FEEDBACK WHATSOEVER.

I GOT ENCOURAGEMENT LEFT AND RIGHT.

AND COMICALLY, SOMEONE WAS TALKING TO ME THIS MORNING ABOUT HOW WOULD, THE BOOK WOULD HAVE BEEN, HAD IT BEEN AT MARVEL OR DC?

AND IT'S NO WAY ON EARTH I COULD HAVE IN THE MARVEL OR DC, BECAUSE BOTH COMPANIES WERE WEIGHED DOWN BY HISTORY AND BAGGAGE, AND "FLAGG" REPRESENTED A DEPARTURE FROM THE KIND OF LINEAR THINKING THAT THAT COMIC BOOKS DID.

I MEAN, THE IRONY OF COURSE, IS THAT I LIKENED IN "FLAGG" IN A POST, I JUST REPOSTED ON FACEBOOK, TO THE ORIGINAL TAPES THAT MILES DAVIS AND GIL EVANS RECORDED FOR "THE BIRTH OF THE COOL" SETS IN 1949, WHICH WAS CIRCULATED AMONG A BUNCH OF MUSICIANS, BUT NOT HEARD BY JAZZ FANS.

AND THEN NINE YEARS LATER, 10 YEARS LATER, IT WOULD BECOME THE ARCHETYPE OF WEST COAST JAZZ AND "FLAGG" TO A GREAT EXTENT IS AN INVISIBLE INFLUENCE ON A SWARM OF TALENT, WORKING IN COMICS FROM THE MID '80S INTO THE MID '90S.

MANY OF WHOM NOW DISLIKED ME INTENSELY JUST BECAUSE I EXIST.

AND ARE UNAWARE OF WHERE THOSE TROPES DERIVED FROM.

IT JUST, YOU KNOW, THE COMIC BOOK PEOPLE TEND TO BE LEERY ABOUT ACKNOWLEDGING THEIR INFLUENCES, AND I'M NOT THAT, NOT THAT GUY.

I'M VERY MUCH THE SON, I'M THE, I'M THE PRODUCT OF APPRENTICESHIPS AND MENTORSHIPS.

AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, BUT YOU KNOW, COMIC BOOKS, THE AUDIENCES IS ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT STUFF THAT IS, FROM MY MONEY, HACK WORK AND POINTLESS AND SILLY.

I MEAN, IT'S, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE WELCOME TO READ ALL THE SUPERHERO STUFF YOU LIKE, BUT DON'T THINK BECAUSE YOU LIKE IT IT'S ANY GOOD.

IT DOESN'T GIVE IT ANY PERIMETER OF ANY QUALITY.

IT'S JUST THE SAME ADOLESCENT SUPERPOWER JUNK, SLATHERED WITH AN EDGE OF GRAVITAS TO MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE AS A 50 YEAR OLD MAN READING THE SAME TRIPE YOU READ WHEN YOU WERE 14.

AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT, BE MY GUEST.

BUT I KEPT ASSUMING THERE WAS AN AUDIENCE OUT THERE FOR MY STUFF AND I'D BEEN PROVED WRONG HISTORICALLY.

MY AUDIENCE IS TINY, LOYAL, BUT REALLY MINUSCULE, IT HAS NO CONTEXT.

THE ACTUAL COMIC BOOK READER IS SOMEONE WHO, WHOSE MIND IS BLOWN BY "WANDAVISION".

AND I GAVE "WANDAVISION" ENTIRE SEASON AND MY MIND REMAINS UNBLOWN.

I MEAN, I FEEL, THAT THE VERY FRANCHISE OF SUCH CHARACTERS IS, YOU KNOW, COMICS ARE ABOUT SUPERHEROES, HEROIC FANTASY AND SPACE OPERA, AND THAT ANYONE WITH ANY OF THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF AMBITION WHO WANTS A COMMERCIAL AUDIENCE IS GOING TO HAVE TO FILTER THROUGH THOSE THREE MENUS OR BECOME AN ART SCHOOL GUY LIKE THE "SPEEDOMAN" CROWD AND I'M STUCK IN THE MIDDLE.

I MEAN, I'M TOO WEIRD FOR THE MAINSTREAM AND TOO MAINSTREAM FOR THE WEIRD.

AND THE WEIRD GUYS THINK I'M JUST SOME SUPERHERO PERSON.

THEY HAVE CONTEMPT PRIOR TO INVESTIGATION.

AND THE MAINSTREAM GUYS, I WOULD SAY PERHAPS MAYBE A QUARTER AT MOST, A FIFTH, MORE LIKELY OF THE COMIC BOOK READERS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE ANY IDEA OF THAN ANYTHING OF ANY CONSEQUENCE IN COMICS SINCE THE MID 1970S, LIKE STAR WARS.

THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS WORK BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT WORK.

THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE, YOU KNOW, THE ADVENTURES OF A RICH GUY WHO HAD A BAD DAY WHEN HE WAS EIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF THING, YOU KNOW.

- NOW ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING THINGS ABOUT "AMERICAN FLAGG" AND I THINK YOU ALLUDED TO THIS, WHEN YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE INTO FASHION AT THE TIME, YOUR ART STYLE IN THAT BOOK IS VERY MUCH THAT '80S SORT OF DESIGN AND THAT GREAT TONE WORK THAT YOU WERE DOING, AND SOME OF THE SHARPEST, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU DO IT, BUT YOUR INK LINES ALWAYS LOOKED SO SHARP, AS IF IT WAS WITH THE STRAIGHTEST PEN EVER INVENTED, AND THEN MIXED WITH THESE GREAT TEXTURES AND TONES.

- I NEVER LEARNED HOW TO INK A COMIC BOOK.

YOU KNOW, I GREW UP WITH LOOKING AT WORK OF GUYS LIKE WALLACE WOOD AND DICK TRADANO, AND ALL THESE GUYS WHO COULD REALLY HANDLE A BRUSH.

AND I NEVER LEARNED TO DO THAT.

AND I FINALLY REALIZED WHAT I HAD TO DO WAS FIGURE OUT A WAY TO CREATE REPRODUCIBLE DRAWINGS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY LOOKED INKED OR WHATEVER.

AND WHAT I WAS USING WAS FLAIR PENS AND A PROCESS THAT NO LONGER EXISTS CALLED DUO-TINT WHICH HAD BEEN CREATED FOR SPORTS AND EDITORIAL CARTOONISTS IN THE 1930S, IT WAS A PHOTOGRAPHIC DEVELOPMENT PROCESS WITH TWO LIQUIDS THAT WOULD DEVELOP A LIGHT TONE.

AND THEN GHOST TONES I DID IT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE I HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO RENDER.

I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO TURN A FORM, AND COMICS REPRODUCTION IN THOSE DAYS WAS SO, THAT THIS WAS THE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE TONAL EFFECTS.

AND I WAS ALSO ABSOLUTELY OBSESSED WITH THE WORK OF GEORGE SEVERINOS AND VALENTINO AND A NUMBER OF DESIGNERS.

I MEAN, SO I LOVE FASHION ILLUSTRATION.

I LOVE FETISH WEAR.

I REALLY RESENTED THE FACT WHEN MADONNA WORE ALL THAT LINGERIE STUFF, IT MADE IT OUTDOOR WEARING BECAUSE THE VERY SECRETIVE NATURE OF LINGERIE WAS WHAT APPEALED TO ME IN THOSE DAYS.

AND I HAD A GOOD BODY.

I'M UNUSUALLY FAT.

NOW I CAN BARELY GET OUT OF MY BED LIKE BACK THEN, I WAS, YOU KNOW, I HAD A BODY MADE FOR GIORGIO ARMANI.

I HAD A LOT OF ARMANI CLOTHES, AND I LOOKED LIKE EUROTRASH.

AND I WAS JUST ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS.

IT WAS THE DEFINING ELEMENT OF MY LIFE.

AND MY HAIR WAS GREAT, I HAD REAL HAIR, AND I HAD, YOU KNOW, JUST, I WAS YOUNG.

I MEAN, I'M TWICE AS OLD, IN FACT THAT'S NEARLY 40 YEARS AGO NOW FOR CHRIST SAKE.

SO EVERYTHING I WAS INTERESTED IN INFORMED THE WORK, I WAS ANGRY ABOUT REPUBLICANISM, WHICH REMAINS A MAJOR FACTOR IN MY LIFE TODAY.

AND I DESPISED THE CULTURE THAT I WAS LIVING IN, YET, AT THE SAME TIME, THEIR USED TO BE A TELEVISION SERIES CALLED DREAM ON, IN WHICH JOHN LANDIS WAS GIVEN ALL THOSE SORT OF UNIVERSAL MOVIES IT WAS ASKED TO CREATE A COMEDY USING ALL THIS AND DID SUCCESSFULLY.

AND THE CREDITS OF THAT WAS A LITTLE BOY BEING PLANTED IN FRONT OF THE TELEVISION SET, AND THAT'S ME.

I LOVE TELEVISION.

I LOVE TELEVISION, WHEN IT WAS, I LOVE TELEVISION NOW, WHEN ITS GREAT.

I JUST LOVE THE FRANCHISE OF TELEVISION AND TELEVISION IS A BIG PART OF "FLAGG" BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE TELEVISION TELLS US WHAT TO DO, BECAUSE THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT TELEVISION.

I LOVE THE IDEA OF WALL-TO-WALL ADVERTISING.

WALL-TO-WALL SELL IN A COMPLETELY CORPORATIZED CULTURE AND I WASN'T PREDICTING STUFF.

IT WAS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY I SAW THINGS THEN, SIMPLY PUSHED A LITTLE BIT FURTHER.

AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THAT'S YOU KNOW, HOW IT GOT DONE.

- NOW YOU MENTIONED TELEVISION, OBVIOUSLY I'VE MADE A CAREER ON TELEVISION AND IN TELEVISION.

SO I TOO WAS, YOU KNOW, PLANTED IN FRONT OF THE TV QUITE A BIT.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT TV IS THAT THE HEROES ALWAYS COME BACK SEASON AFTER SEASON, OR AT LEAST WE HOPE THEY DO.

AND THERE ARE SHOWS LIKE SOAP OPERAS, WHERE THEY ARE SERIALIZED AND EVERY DAY, THERE'S A LITTLE BIT MORE OF THAT STORY THAT GETS TOLD AND COMICS KIND OF FOLLOW THAT MODEL AS WELL.

AND I'M WONDERING, YOU KNOW, LOOKING BACK AT YOUR RUN ON "AMERICAN FLAGG," WOULD YOU THINK TO YOURSELF THAT MAYBE, IN A CONTEMPORARY ENVIRONMENT, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO A YEAR OR LESS AND JUST TELL A STORY, KIND OF ONE, AND DONE AS A GRAPHIC NOVEL, OR WAS THERE ALWAYS SORT OF THAT IDEA THAT IT HAD TO BE SERIALIZED COMING OUT EVERY MONTH, HIT THAT DEADLINE AND, YOU KNOW, KEEP MORE PRODUCT COMING.

- YOU RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT.

I MEAN, I LEFT COMICS TO WORK IN TELEVISION FOR 15 YEARS IN THE 1990S AND LATE 1980S.

AND THE REASON I DID IT WAS BECAUSE I HAD NO FRANCHISE IN COMICS.

I WAS NEVER GOING TO MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO BE ABLE TO LIVE NOW WITHOUT LIVING ON CAT FOOD AND SOCIAL SECURITY.

AND I WORKED ON TELEVISION SHOWS I'D NEVER WATCH BECAUSE MY CV, MY RESUME REFLECTED AND TO THE AUDIENCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE HIRING ME, I MUST LOVE SUPERHERO COMIC BOOKS.

AND I DON'T, I DON'T REALLY GIVE A, ABOUT THIS STUFF, BUT THE HOLLYWOOD MARKETPLACE IS MADE UP OF PEOPLE WHO USED TO BEAT US UP FOR READING COMIC BOOKS IN HIGH SCHOOL, NOW MAKING BANK OFF THAT MATERIAL.

AND THEIR PERCEPTION OF COMICS IS AS A GENRE, AS OPPOSED TO A MEDIUM.

IN THEIR WORLD, RIVERDALE AND SUPERMAN ARE THE SAME THING.

BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH LINES ON PAPER LIKE ROBERT GRIMES SAID.

SINCE I CAME BACK TO COMICS IN THE EARLY '80S OR THE EARLY AUGHTS RATHER WHEN I GOT FIRED FROM MY LAST TV JOB AND WAS GRATEFUL, NEVER TO HAVE TO SEE THESE PEOPLE AGAIN.

I'VE DONE ONE AND DONES.

I HAVE NOT PROCEEDED TO FOLLOW THE MARKETPLACE OF CREATING A SERIALIZED, PERMANENT CHARACTER.

THE MATERIAL I'VE DONE HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, I ENJOY THE CONCEPT OF GRAPHIC NOVEL.

IT'S A GRAPHIC NOVEL IS WHAT PEOPLE CALL COMIC BOOKS WHEN THEY WERE EMBARRASSED TO BE READING COMIC BOOKS, IT'S COMICS, KIDS, AND, YOU KNOW, IN EVERYTHING FROM "MIGHTY LOVE" TO "CENTURY WEST" "THE NIGHT OF THE SOUL" "MARKED MAN" I'VE DONE STORIES WITH CHARACTERS WHO TRANSFORM AND TO MY FASCINATION AND, AND TO MY RUE, I'VE COME TO REALIZE THAT MUCH OF THE REASON FOR THE HOSTILITY WAS DIRECTED AT ME IN 2017, FOR A BOOK I DID CALLED "THE DIVIDED STATES OF HYSTERIA" WHICH IS MY FAR FROM OPTIMISTIC RETAKE ON "AMERICAN FLAGG".

IN TERMS OF THE DYSTOPIA, NO BURLESQUE, WAS THAT THE COMIC BOOK AUDIENCE IS INDOCTRINATED TO BELIEVE THAT CHANGE IS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T REALLY HAPPEN TO COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS.

THAT CHANGE IS SYMBOLIZED IN COMICS BY A DIFFERENT COSTUME, THAT THERE'S NO REAL ACTUAL CHANGE CHARACTERS DON'T REALLY GROW.

THEY GET MARRIED, BUT THEY DON'T REALLY, YOU KNOW, THE, FAKE, THE AIRS THAT'S REALITY, VERISIMILITUDE IMPLIED TO THIS STUFF MAKES IT A JOKE.

AND THAT IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ANYONE THAT THAT CHARACTER WAS INTRODUCED IN THE FIRST STAGE OF A BOOK MIGHT BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CHARACTER BY THE END OF THE SIXTH.

AND THAT IS ONE OF MY RESPONSIBILITIES WITH THE MATERIAL.

AND I FIND THAT SADDENING IN THAT A NARRATIVE FORM AS COMPLEX AND DIFFICULT TO PRODUCE AS COMICS IS, HAS BECOME SO COMPLETELY IN THE SERVICE OF THE FRIVOLOUS.

AND I LOOK AT JOE SACCO STUFF AND I REALLY LOVE IT.

IT'S REALLY BRILLIANT, BUT THERE'S NO REASON WHY YOU CAN'T TELL GENRE BASED MATERIAL THAT ISN'T ABOUT, YOU KNOW, GUYS WITH COMING OUT OF THEIR EYES AND MASKS AND STUFF.

IN, IN THE CONTEXT OF COMICS.

I LOVE WESTERN I LOVE ROMANCE STUFF, I LOVE WAR STORIES.

I LOVE MORE.

AND I MEAN, RIGHT NOW, I'M DOING A VERY STRAIGHT UP ESPIONAGE PIECE AND COLLABORATING WITH ANOTHER WRITER, BUT I'M ALSO WRITING AND DRAWING A SEQUEL TO "MARKED MAN".

THE THING I DID FOR DARK HORSE A COUPLE YEARS BACK, WHICH IS ABOUT AN UNREPENTANT CRIMINAL AS THE LEAD, AND THIS IS THE SORT OF CHARACTER THAT COMIC BOOK FANS, JUST LIKE THEY FLINCH, THEY BECOME OBSESSED AND JUST HORRIBLE, BECAUSE THEY PREFER A CHARACTER LIKE WOLVERINE.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS ONE WOUND IT'S SIMPLY SO SAD, BUT HE'S THE BEST.

AND BATMAN WHO WAS, LIKE I SAID, IS A RICH GUY, WHO HAD A BAD DAY WHEN HE WAS EIGHT.

BUT IT'S A 15 YEAR OLD BOYS IDEA OF WHAT THAT RICH GUY WHO HAD A BAD DAY WHEN HE WAS EIGHT, WOULD HAVE DONE WITH THIS MONEY.

AND, YOU KNOW, I JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT STUFF.

AND WHEN I'M COMPARED TO MY COLLEAGUES AND CONTEMPORARIES OF THAT ERA, I POINT OUT THAT MOST OF THOSE GUYS BECAME MULTIMILLIONAIRES AS A RESULT OF THE CHOICES THEY'VE MADE IN TERMS OF CONNECTING THEMSELVES WITH SUPER HERO COMIC BOOKS.

AND I'M A KIND OF A HUNDRED DOLLAR-AIRE YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE I'M AT.

YOU KNOW, I DID TELL EVERYONE SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE I COULD NOT SEE ANY WAY TO GENERATE A LIVABLE LIFESTYLE FORTUNE IN COMICS BECAUSE I JUST DON'T SHARE THE SENSIBILITIES OF THE AUDIENCE.

ONE OF THE MOST PROFOUND SOURCES OF SUCCESS IN COMIC BOOKS, MAINSTREAM COMICS TODAY IS A SHARED ZEITGEIST, A REAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TALENT AND THE AUDIENCE.

AND I DON'T KNOW, I JUST DON'T LOVE THAT MATERIAL ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING, BUT CONVEY IT, THE KIND OF A GLIB CONTEMPT.

AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T MAKE ME A BELOVED FIGURE.

- IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT I HAVE WITH, LET'S SAY A SERIES ON NETFLIX WHERE YOU SIT THROUGH A SEASON.

- [HOWARD] WHAT SHOW?

- WELL, I WAS THINKING THERE WAS AN AUSTRALIAN SHOW.

- [HOWARD] JUST SPELL IT, THEY WON'T KNOW, JUST SPELL IT.

- IT WAS AN AUSTRALIAN SHOW ABOUT TWO WOMEN WHO WERE ACCUSED OF ROBBING A BANK, BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY BEING SET UP.

SO THE FIRST SEASON IS THEM TRYING TO GET AWAY AND THEN THERE'S A RESOLUTION, BUT THEN THERE'S SEASON TWO.

SO THERE'S ONLY SO LONG YOU CAN SUSTAIN THAT EXCITEMENT OF THESE TWO WOMEN ON THE RUN FROM BOTH THE MAFIA AND THE LAW, WITHOUT IT EVENTUALLY BECOMING WELL.

THEY'RE NEVER GOING TO GET CAUGHT.

IT'S THE ANDY GRIFFITH SHOW.

BARNEY'S NEVER GONNA PULL THAT GUN, HE'S NEVER GONNA SHOOT THAT BULLET.

- LOOK, THERE ARE SHOWS THAT THAT RUN THEIR COURSE IN THAT REGARD.

I MEAN, A TV, TNT AND TBS ARE NOTORIOUS IN DOING SHOWS, THAT REALLY FEEL LIKE CHECKER GAMES.

YOU KNOW, "SUITS" RAN ITS COURSE, BUT THE CHARACTERS JUST KEEP MOVING AROUND.

AND I THINK "BILLIONS" HAS GONE TO THAT PLACE.

I JUST WATCHED ALL SIX SEASONS OF "LINE OF DUTY" AND IN ENGLAND, WHICH IS REALLY STEPS ASIDE FROM THIS PARTICULAR PROBLEM IN A BRILLIANT WAY.

HAVE YOU SEEN THE SHOW?

- [TERRANCE] I HAVE NOT.

- IT'S PHENOMENAL SIX SIX EPISODES SEASONS WITH A THROUGH LINE THAT RUNS THROUGH FROM EPISODE ONE OF SEASON ONE THROUGH THE FINAL CHECK, THE FINAL EPISODE, THE THREE PRIMARY CHARACTERS DO SURVIVE, BUT THEY GET KICKED OUT OF THEM.

AND IT'S A IT'S REALLY WELL-MADE, AND THEN THE REST IS DIRECTLY ADDRESSES THE ISSUE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

I WATCH A LOT OF TELEVISION AND I FIND MYSELF NOT PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN ACTION-BASED TELEVISION.

I LIKE CHARACTER STORIES.

I MEAN, A FRIEND OF MINE POSTED SOMEBODY FROM SUBSTACK, ABOUT A REVIEW OF THE NEW DUNE PICTURE, WHICH I HAVE NOT SEEN, WHICH I'LL PROBABLY SEE I CAN'T GUARANTEE IT.

AND THIS WOMAN POINTS OUT THE FACT THAT IT'S A VISUALLY STUNNING MOVIE THAT HAS NO CHARACTER INTERACTION WHATSOEVER.

AND I GOT TO HAVE CHARACTER INTERACTION I LIKE THAT STUFF.

IT'S WHAT INTERESTS ME.

IT'S WHY I LIKE "SUCCESSION" YOU KNOW, DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT IS A BIT "ROAD RUNNER AND COYOTE" IN A LOT OF WAYS, BUT IT'S STILL GOT SOME PHENOMENAL PERFORMANCES BY PHENOMENAL PERFORMERS GETTING INTO EACH OTHER'S CAVE, I MEAN, MATTHEW MACFADYEN DOING A MINNESOTA ACCENT IS WORTH AN HOUR'S TIME, OF ANY DAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST THE BEST.

- WELL, I WANTED TO ASK, WE'LL JUST STEER A LITTLE BIT BACK INTO COMICS.

I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE FOR OTHER ARTISTS, I'M WONDERING HOW YOU SORT OF DO THAT.

IS IT SOMETHING WHERE YOU JUST WRITE OUT THE SCRIPT AND HAND IT TO THE EDITOR AND THEY'RE GOING TO GIVE IT TO THE ARTISTS, OR DO YOU TALK WITH THE ARTISTS AND KIND OF COLLABORATE AND COME UP WITH SOMETHING?

- I DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING FOR EVERY JOB I DO.

I WRITE A FULL SCRIPT FOR MYSELF AS WELL.

I HAVEN'T DELIVERED PENCILS IN 40 YEARS.

I'M A BRAND, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE COMPANIES HAVE CONVINCED THE AUDIENCE, THAT THE CHARACTERS OF THE BRAND, I AM A BRAND.

AND IF I'M HIRED BY A COMPANY, THEY HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO GET.

AT LEAST CERTAINLY WITHIN SORT OF A FRAMEWORK OF VALUE AND QUALITY.

AND I WRITE SCRIPTS THAT ARE EXTREMELY DETAILED.

I COMPLETELY REJECT THE MARVEL STYLE APPROACH.

IT'S LAZY AND SLOPPY, AND IT DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE FORMALISM THAT I FEEL IS IMPORTANT TO COMICS.

I DON'T MAKE PAGES THAT LOOK LIKE HIS, I'M DEEPLY INFLUENCED BY THE WAY HARVEY KURTZMAN THOUGHT ABOUT PAGEMAKING.

AND I RAN A THREE PART LECTURE SERIES DURING THE LOCKDOWN CALLED THE PARADIGM, WHICH TALKED ABOUT THIS, THAT THE RELATIONSHIP OF SIZE TO SHAPE AND THAT SPACE IN COMICS REPRESENTS TIME IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME.

IF I WORK WITH ANOTHER WRITER AND THE WRITER ASKS ME WHAT I FEEL LIKE DRAWING, I TEND TO QUIT THE JOB BECAUSE THAT'S NOT MY JOB.

MY JOB IS NOT THE DRAW WHAT I FEEL LIKE DRAWING MY JOB IS TO SERVE AS A NARRATIVE IN VISUALS.

I TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY THE IDEA THAT WHEN I WRITE A SCRIPT, I WRITE, YOU KNOW, ACROSS THE PAGE WITH ONE THIRD OF THE PAGE IN HEIGHT, AND IT'S NOT AN ARBITRARY CHOICE.

I FEEL LIKE FEEL THAT IF YOU DO A PAGE OF SAY SIX PANELS AND THEY'RE ALL AT DIFFERENT SIZES, THERE BETTER BE A DAMN GOOD REASON WHY THOSE PANELS ARE ALL DIFFERENT SIZES.

THAT THE READER IS A PARTICIPANT IN A SUBJECTIVE SENSE WITHIN THE MATERIAL.

AND THAT YOU TELL THE READER INFORMATION SOMETIMES SUBLIMINALLY AND SOMETIMES DIRECTLY BY HOW YOU CHOOSE TO LAY OUT YOUR PAGE, AND HOW YOU CHOOSE TO LAY THOSE PANELS, AND WHAT SIZE THEY CHOOSE TO BE.

AND WHEN I WAS DOING THE MARVEL SEMINARS, A COUPLE OF YEARS BACK, THE FIRST DAY CONSISTED OF BEATING THE HOBBYISM OUT OF THESE TALENTS AND POINTING OUT THAT THERE'S, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS AN ARBITRARY SHOT, EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE A REASON.

AND AGAIN, YOU'RE NOT SITTING THERE.

YOU'RE NOT SWEATING OVER EVERY IMAGE, BUT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THERE'S A FORMALISM.

THERE WAS A LANGUAGE THERE'S A SYNTAX, AND THAT SYNTAX APPLIES TO THE TEXT AND THE VISUALS.

AND MY JOB AS A WRITER IS TO PROVIDE MORE THAN SIMPLY A TEMPLATE WITH SOME LITTLE ROOM FOR THE ARTIST, BUT NOT SO MUCH WIGGLE ROOM, AS TO GIVE SOME LAZY SON OF, A WHO DOESN'T HAVE ANY IDEA ABOUT HOW TO TELL THE STORY, VISUALLY, DO WHATEVER HE FEELS LIKE.

IT'S GRAPHIC DESIGN IN THE SERVICE OF NARRATIVE.

THAT'S WHAT COMIC BOOK ARTISTS ARE.

WE'RE NOT ILLUSTRATORS.

WE ARE CARTOONISTS AND THAT GRAPHIC DESIGN SHOULD BE IMPLIED OR EVEN EXPLICATED IN THE SCRIPT.

- THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN SOME RATHER INTERESTING SCRIPTS OVER THE YEARS FOR OTHER ARTISTS.

I'M THINKING OF "TWILIGHT" WITH THE GREAT JOSE LUIS GARCIA LOPEZ.

- WHAT HE PUT ON THE PAGE WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WROTE.

AND THAT WAS INSANE BECAUSE THAT WAS A REALLY A BITCH OF A SCRIPT TO DRAW.

I MEAN, I DID NOT MAKE HIS LIFE EASY BY ANY MEANS, BUT LET'S FACE IT, COMICS IS NOT A MERITOCRACY.

YOU KNOW, IF COMICS IS A MERITOCRACY, JOSE GARCIA LOPEZ WOULD BE REGARDED AS THE ONE TRUE KING.

AND GUYS WHO ARE NOW HELD IN HUGE FAME FOR SELLING THEIR JUNKY SKETCHES FOR A THOUSAND DOLLARS A POP, THEY'RE MAKING THEIR LIVINGS AIRBRUSHING WIZARDS ON THE SIDES OF PANEL TRUCKS.

YOU KNOW, THAT BOOK IS A STAGGERING ACHIEVEMENT AND IT TANKED IN ITS FIRST RELEASE.

THE AUDIENCE HAD NO IDEA WHAT TO MAKE OF IT.

JOHN BURTON FAMOUSLY REFERRED TO IT AS ME RAPING THE CHARACTERS, PLEASE, JOHN, YOU COULD DO A LITTLE, PLEASE.

I MEAN, HONESTLY, REALLY.

THE MATERIAL TO ME WAS INSPIRED BY THE WORK OF "BLACKSMITH" I WANT TO DO A MASSIVE SPACE OPERA.

THAT WAS COMPLETELY GRAND, AND I DID.

AND GARCIA WAS ALL ALONG.

I MEAN, I THUMBNAILED IT.

AND HE RAN WITH IT AND JUST MADE ME LOOK BETTER THAN I COULD'VE EVER HOPED TO.

TRUST ME, IT'S A STAGGERING PIECE OF WORK, IT REALLY IS.

- WELL, I SEE WE HAVE ABOUT A ONE MINUTE LEFT IN OUR CONVERSATION BEFORE WE HAVE TO WRAP UP.

I KNOW, TIME DOES FLY, - I TOLD YOU, ONE QUESTION BABE.

- BUT I DID WANT TO KIND OF GO BACK.

YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT THOSE GUYS WHO CAN SELL A PINUP FOR A THOUSAND DOLLARS AT A CON.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING AS YOU LOOK AT THIS, I GUESS THE TREND NOW THAT ORIGINAL COMIC ART IS WORTH THOUSANDS, TENS OF THOUSANDS, SOMETIMES HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD EVER PREDICTED OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN EXPLOIT OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU THINK IS KIND OF SILLY.

- I DON'T HAVE AN AUDIENCE FOR THAT SORT OF STUFF.

NOBODY CARES ABOUT MY STUFF IN THAT WAY.

MY STUFF IS SO CHEAP, YOU CAN GET IT FOR NOTHING.

I MEAN, MY WORK, IS BASED.

MY WORK HAS NO VALUE UNTIL IT'S IN PRINT WITH TEXT AND PICTURES TOGETHER.

THAT'S WHAT I WORK FOR.

I'M NOT THE BEST ARTIST IN THE WORLD.

I'M NOT THE BEST WRITER IN THE WORLD, BUT TOGETHER THE SYNERGY CREATED BY THOSE TWO DISCIPLINES IS WHAT MAKES MY WORK MALLEABLE AND VALID.

WHEN I GO TO CONVENTIONS AND SOMEONE ASKS ME TO DO A SKETCH OF DR. OCTOPUS, I WONDER WHAT IS IN THEIR HEADS?

YOU KNOW, I MEAN, WHAT, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, BEFORE HE EVEN PUTS ON THE OUTFIT, WHEN HE GETS OUT OF BED WITH A CUP OF COFFEE, MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW, JUST, YOU KNOW, I DREW A PICTURE OF STORM FOR SOMEBODY IN SPAIN LAST WEEK.

WHY IN GOD'S NAME, WOULD YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I THINK?

HONESTLY, SO, BUT, YOU KNOW, COMIC BOOK FANS WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THEY DRANK THE KOOL-AID.

- WELL, HOWARD, I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH THAT THE HALF HOUR HAS FLOWN BY.

I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME OUT OF YOUR SCHEDULE TO TALK WITH ME.

- I TOOK A NAP, SO I WAS READY FOR YOU BUD.

THANK YOU TERENCE.

- I'D LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE AT HOME FOR WATCHING COMIC CULTURE.

WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN SOON.

[TENSE MUSIC] COMIC CULTURE IS A PRODUCTION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MASS COMMUNICATION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT PEMBROKE.

[TENSE MUSIC]