♪ THEME MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

FROM OUR HOME STUDIOS, I'M DAVID DUMKE.

>>AND I'M KATIE CORONADO.

WELCOME.

>>TODAY WE HAVE THE HONOR OF BEING JOINED BY FORMER US NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R.

MCMASTER.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, GENERAL.

>>HEY, DAVID AND KATIE.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AGAIN, AN HONOR TO HAVE YOU WITH US, LIEUTENANT GENERAL.

WE'RE HONORED TO HAVE YOU.

YOU'RE A SOLDIER.

YOU'RE A HISTORIAN, A SCHOLAR.

WHAT MAKES YOU PROUD OF WHAT YOU'VE DONE?

>>WELL, HEY, THANKS, KATIE.

I GREW UP IN PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA.

FROM MY EARLIEST MEMORY, I WANTED TO SERVE IN THE UNITED STATES ARMY.

AND WHAT I'M MOST PROUD OF, OR MAYBE FOND OF ACROSS MY 34 YEARS OF SERVICE IN THE ARMY IS I GOT TO SERVE WITH COURAGEOUS, SELFLESS, EXTRAORDINARY YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO WERE DETERMINED TO PROTECT OUR NATION, WHO WERE WILLING TO MAKE SACRIFICES FOR MISSIONS AND ENDEAVORS LARGER THAN THEMSELVES, AND WHO'VE BECOME ALMOST PART OF A FAMILY IN WHICH THE MAN OR WOMAN NEXT TO YOU IS WILLING TO GIVE EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THEIR OWN LIVES FOR ONE ANOTHER.

SO THERE ARE THESE INCREDIBLE, LESS TANGIBLE REWARDS OF SERVICE THAT I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS REALLY DON'T REALIZE.

AND SO I JUST CONSIDER IT THE GREATEST PRIVILEGE OF MY LIFE TO HAVE SERVED IN OUR ARMY.

>>THANK YOU FOR THAT.

YOU'RE CURRENTLY SERVING AS THE FOUAD AND MICHELLE AJAMI SENIOR FELLOW AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY'S HOOVER INSTITUTE.

SO YOU'VE MOVED OUT OF ... YOU'RE OUT OF THE MILITARY.

YOU'RE NOW OUT OF THE POLICY IMPLEMENTING APPARATUS.

YOU ARE OUT.

YOU'RE FREQUENTLY ON MEDIA.

YOU'VE RECENTLY WRITTEN A BOOK.

YOU WRITE ARTICLES.

AND WE WANTED TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR CURRENT BOOK, WHICH IS BATTLEGROUNDS, FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ IT.

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THIS BOOK, WHY YOU WROTE IT.

>>WELL, AFTER 34 YEARS IN THE ARMY, I'VE MADE KIND OF MAYBE PREDICTABLY FOR AN ARMY OFFICER, A MISSION STATEMENT FOR MYSELF IN MY SECOND CAREER, AND THAT WAS TO CONTRIBUTE TO A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES WE FACE INTERNATIONALLY AS A WAY TO BRING AMERICANS AND REALLY CITIZENS ACROSS THE FREE WORLD TOGETHER FOR MEANINGFUL, THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSIONS ABOUT HOW WE CAN OVERCOME OBSTACLES AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OPPORTUNITIES, AND BUILD A BETTER FUTURE FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.

AND SO I UNDERTOOK THIS BOOK, BATTLEGROUNDS, WHICH AS I STARTED I THOUGHT, "WHY DID I DO THIS?"

IT'S OF COURSE, THE SCOPE IS VERY LARGE TO TRY TO WRITE ABOUT AND FOSTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE GREATEST CHALLENGES WE'RE FACING FROM GREAT POWER COMPETITION WITH THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY, AND WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN'S KREMLIN, TO THE HOSTILE STATES OF IRAN AND NORTH KOREA, THE PROBLEM WITH JIHADIST TERRORISM CENTERED IN THE JEWISH STRATEGIC ENVIRONMENTS OF SOUTH ASIA AND THE GREATER MIDDLE EAST, AND THEN CROSS CUTTING ARENAS OF COMPETITION INVOLVING THE INTERCONNECTED PROBLEMS OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY SECURITY AND FOOD AND WATER AND HEALTH SECURITY.

BUT I WOUND UP IN A GREAT PLACE HERE, DAVID, AT THE HOOVER INSTITUTION, STANFORD UNIVERSITY.

AND I GET TO WORK WITH AMAZING STUDENTS, WHO ARE MY RESEARCH ASSISTANTS.

AND WE WORKED ON THIS PROJECT FOR TWO YEARS TOGETHER.

AND I HOPE THAT IT'S FULFILLING ITS PURPOSE OF GENERATING THE DISCUSSION ABOUT THESE CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES, AND DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW WE BUILD A BETTER FUTURE.

AND OF COURSE, I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO MISS ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF SERVING IN OUR ARMY THAT I WAS GOING TO MISS IS THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE WITH YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN, BUT I'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT WORK WITH STUDENTS HERE AT STANFORD.

AND I THINK AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY, THERE IS REALLY AN UNTAPPED DESIRE TO SERVE.

AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO HERE IS TALK WITH STUDENTS ABOUT OPPORTUNITIES TO SERVE IN GOVERNMENT, AND OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT, AND WITHIN THE MILITARY.

AND SO IT'S BEEN EXTREMELY REWARDING.

THE WHOLE PROCESS OF WRITING THE BOOK, I DON'T THINK I COULD'VE DONE IT ANYWHERE ELSE, AND I HOPE IT'S FULFILLING ITS PURPOSE.

>>THERE'S ALSO SOME VIDEO CONTENT, SOME ONLINE CONTENT THAT MATCHES THE TITLE OF THE BOOK.

CAN YOU TELL US MORE ABOUT THAT?

BECAUSE I WAS WATCHING SOME, AND I SEE THAT YOU'VE INTERACTED WITH A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL FIGURES.

AND IT ALMOST SEEMS LIKE IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR DIPLOMACY.

CAN YOU ELABORATE?

>>IT IS.

HEY, WELL, THANKS FOR THAT QUESTION, KATIE.

ONE OF THE THEMES IN THE BOOK IS STRATEGIC NARCISSISM, AND THAT'S MEANT TO REALLY DESCRIBE OUR TENDENCY TO FIND THE WORLD ONLY IN RELATION TO US AS AMERICANS, AND TO ASSUME THAT WHAT WE DO OR DECIDE NOT TO DO IS DECISIVE TOWARD ACHIEVING A FAVORABLE OUTCOME.

NOW THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH THAT BECAUSE IT'S SELF REFERENTIAL, AND IT DOESN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEGREE TO WHICH OTHERS HAVE AGENCY AND INFLUENCE AND AUTHORSHIP OVER THE FUTURE.

SO THE ARGUMENT IN THE BOOK IS ALSO FOR STRATEGIC EMPATHY AS A CORRECTIVE TO THIS NARCISSISTIC VIEW OF THE WORLD.

IT'S A TERM I BORROWED FROM THE HISTORIAN, ZACHARY SHORE.

AND WHAT SHORE SAYS IS THAT WE HAVE TO PAY PARTICULAR CONSIDERATION TO OTHERS' PERSPECTIVES.

WE HAVE TO VIEW CHALLENGES FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF OTHERS.

AND THEN WE ALSO HAVE TO PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THE EMOTIONS AND THE ASPIRATIONS AND THE IDEOLOGY THAT DRIVES AND CONSTRAINS OTHERS.

AND SO THE THEME OF THE BATTLEGROUND SERIES, WHAT ARE REALLY INTERNATIONAL PERSPECTIVES ON CRUCIAL CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE FACE TODAY, IS TO HAVE LONG FORMAT INTERVIEWS WITH WORLD LEADERS.

AND IT'S A VIDEO SERIES, AND IT'S ALSO A PODCAST.

BUT IT PRESENTS UPFRONT THE HISTORY, REALLY CONDENSED IN ABOUT SIX MINUTES, THE HISTORY OF THAT PARTICULAR COUNTRY FROM WHICH THAT LEADER IS COMING FOR THE CONVERSATION, AND THEN THE HISTORY OF US RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT COUNTRY, OR WITH INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, OR WHATEVER THE THEME IS FOR THAT WEEK.

AND THEN WE GO INTO THIS LONG FORMAT DISCUSSION.

AND IT'S BEEN REALLY FUN.

I'VE INVITED A LOT OF OLD FRIENDS THAT I'VE MADE OVER THE YEARS, AND MANY OF THEM ARE HEADS OF STATE AND FOREIGN MINISTERS AND MY FELLOW NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISORS.

AND IT'S RECEIVED I THINK GOOD RESPONSE, AND I REALLY ENJOY DOING IT.

AND THEN THE OTHER VIDEO SERIES THAT I WAS ABLE TO DO IS UNDER THE POLICY ED SERIES HERE AT THE HOOVER INSTITUTION.

THEY DO A GREAT JOB OF CONDENSING AND UNDERSTANDING OF REALLY COMPLEX ISSUES INTO A REALLY DIGESTIBLE SIX OR SEVEN MINUTE VIDEO.

AND SO EACH PART OF THE BOOK IS REFLECTED IN THAT POLICY ED VIDEO SERIES AS WELL.

BUT AGAIN, THIS IS ME MOVING OUT ON MY MISSION STATEMENT.

RIGHT?

IT'S TRYING TO FOSTER A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THESE CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES THAT WE FACE.

>>GENERAL, YOU AS HISTORIAN, BOTH IN THIS BOOK AND IN YOUR PREVIOUS BOOK, HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT SOME OF THE AMERICAN MISTAKES, AND THAT'S OF ADMINISTRATIONS, BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, SO TI'S A NONPARTISAN HISTORICAL CRITICISM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, AS A HISTORIAN WHO'S ACTUALLY WORKED IN THE POLICY MAKING PROCESS, WHAT DO YOU THINK UNITED STATES NEEDS TO DO TO ADDRESS THIS STRATEGIC NARCISSISM AND GET TO THE POINT OF EMPATHY THAT YOU WERE JUST SPEAKING OF?

>>WELL, THANKS, DAVID.

AND THE FIRST BOOK I WROTE IS ENTITLED DERELICTION OF DUTY.

IT'S ABOUT HOW AND WHY VIETNAM BECAME AN AMERICAN WAR.

AND AS I FOUND MYSELF IN THE JOB OF NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR QUITE UNEXPECTEDLY, THE PRESIDENT HIRED ME ON PRESIDENT'S DAY, 2017.

AND I WENT TO WORK IN THE WEST WING OF THE WHITE HOUSE THE NEXT DAY, AND I DIDN'T EVEN LIVE IN WASHINGTON.

BUT I BROUGHT WITH ME I THINK THE EXPERIENCE OF READING, THINKING, RESEARCHING AND WRITING ABOUT HOW AND WHY VIETNAM BECAME AN AMERICAN WAR.

AND WHAT I HAD IN MIND IS TO DO MY BEST TO TRY TO RESTORE A HIGHER DEGREE OF STRATEGIC COMPETENCE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY.

AND TO DO THAT, I THOUGHT, "OKAY, WELL, THE FIRST STEP MIGHT BE AT LEAST AVOID MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES THAT I WROTE ABOUT IN THE BOOK."

AND SO I PUT TOGETHER A PROCESS THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO SPEND MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE CHALLENGES WE FACE INTERNATIONALLY BEFORE RUSHING TO ACTION.

WE PUT IN PLACE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT WE CALLED A PRINCIPAL SMALL GROUP FRAMING SESSION, QUITE THE MOUTHFUL.

BUT THAT WAS A DISCUSSION ORGANIZED JUST AROUND A FIVE PAGE PAPER THAT DESCRIBED THE NATURE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE'RE FACING, THAT IDENTIFIED VITAL US INTERESTS THAT WERE AT STAKE, THAT THEN TOOK A VIEW OF THAT CHALLENGE THROUGH THE LENS OF THOSE VITAL INTERESTS, AND RECOMMENDED OVERARCHING GOALS AND MORE SPECIFIC OBJECTIVES.

WE ENSURED THAT WE IDENTIFIED ASSUMPTIONS, ESPECIALLY ASSUMPTIONS CONCERNING THE DEGREE TO WHICH WE AND LIKE MINDED PARTNERS HAD AGENCY AND INFLUENCE OVER THIS COMPLEX CHALLENGE.

AND WE IDENTIFIED OBSTACLES TO PROGRESS AND OPPORTUNITIES.

AND THEN WE STOPPED THERE, AND WE HAD A DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT FRAMING.

THIS IS SO-CALLED DESIGN THINKING.

AND THEN WE TALKED ABOUT IDEAS, IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO INTEGRATE ALL ELEMENTS OF NATIONAL POWER.

THIS IS DIPLOMACY, ECONOMIC POLICY, AND ACTIONS, MILITARY, LAW ENFORCEMENT, INTELLIGENCE, INFORMATIONAL AND SO FORTH, HOW WE INTEGRATED THOSE ELEMENTS OF POWER WITH EFFORTS OF LIKE MINDED PARTNERS TO OVERCOME THOSE OBSTACLES AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OPPORTUNITIES.

AND THOSE IDEAS DISCUSSED AT THE CABINET LEVEL BECAME KIND OF REALLY GOOD TOP DOWN GUIDANCE FOR THE DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES AND OUR NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF, WHOSE JOB IT IS TO COORDINATE AND INTEGRATE ACROSS THOSE DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES TO PROVIDE BEST ANALYSIS AND OPTIONS TO THE PRESIDENT.

AND SO THE SYSTEM WE PUT IN PLACE, PART OF THAT SYSTEM WAS THIS FRAMING SESSION, PART OF IT WAS IDENTIFYING THE 16 OR SO TOP NATIONAL SECURITY CHALLENGES ON WHICH WE SHOULD FOCUS.

I THINK IT DID MOVE US ALONG THE DIRECTION TOWARDS STRATEGIC EMPATHY AND HELPED RESTORE A DEGREE OF STRATEGIC COMPETENCE, AND PUT IN PLACE POLICIES AND STRATEGIES THAT COULD HELP US UNDERSTAND BETTER HOW EVENTS, AS THEY EVOLVE, FIT INTO WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE IN THE LONG-TERM.

SOME OF THOSE STRATEGIES SURVIVED.

SOME OF THOSE DIDN'T SURVIVE THE REST OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

ONE THAT DID SURVIVE WAS I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT SHIFT IN US FOREIGN POLICY SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR, AND THAT'S THE SHIFT IN POLICY TOWARD THE CHINESE COMMUNITY PARTY, AND IT'S WHAT I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, ITS CAMPAIGN OF COOPTION, COERCION, AND CONCEALMENT.

>>THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT.

WE'RE IN FLORIDA, AND CUBA ALSO HAS A COMMUNIST PARTY AND A COMMUNIST REGIME.

HOW DO YOU THINK REALISTICALLY WE CAN APPLY THIS IDEA OF STRATEGIC EMPATHY WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENCES?

YOU MENTIONED THE COMMUNIST PARTY IN CHINA, AND EARLIER, YOU HAD MENTIONED IRAN DURING ANOTHER TALK THAT I HEARD.

CAN YOU TELL US MORE ABOUT YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

>>WELL, KATIE, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

OVERALL, I THINK WE ARE IN A COMPETITION.

I THINK THIS CENTURY WILL BE DEFINED BY A COMPETITION BETWEEN AUTHORITARIAN AND CLOSED SYSTEMS AND OUR FREE AND OPEN SOCIETIES.

NOW FOREMOST AMONG THOSE IS THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY BECAUSE OF THE SCALE, THE VASTNESS OF THE RESOURCES THAT CHINA BRINGS TO BEAR TO THAT COMPETITION.

BUT THERE ARE OTHERS, OF COURSE, WHO ARE STIFLING HUMAN FREEDOM AROUND THE WORLD, AND THAT INCLUDES THE CUBAN REGIME, AND REALLY, THE CUBAN ARMY, WHICH IS IN CONTROL IN CUBA.

ONE OF THE THINGS OF WHICH I'M PROUD IS THE MAJOR SHIFT WE AFFECTED IN THE POLICY TOWARD CUBA WHEN I WAS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

AND I BELIEVE THAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION'S APPROACH TO CUBA WAS AN EXAMPLE OF STRATEGIC NARCISSISM BECAUSE WHEN YOU DEFINE THE WORLD IN RELATION TO US, YOU CAN DEFINE THE WORLD AS YOU LIKE IT TO BE.

AND SO THE WAY THAT THEY DEFINED THE CUBAN REGIME IS A REGIME THAT WOULD BE OPEN, OPEN TO ALTERNATIVE SOURCES OF POWER AND INFLUENCE DEVELOPING WITHIN CUBA, BASED ON THE OPENING TO CUBA.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE COGNITIVE TRAP WE OFTEN FALL INTO, WHICH IS MIRROR IMAGING.

THIS IS WHAT WE WOULD DO, THEREFORE, THIS IS WHAT MAYBE THE CASTRO REGIME AND HIS SUCCESSOR WOULD DO IN CUBA.

AND THEN ALSO, WE FALL INTO COGNITIVE TRAPS ASSOCIATED WITH OPTIMISM BIAS AND CONFIRMATION BIAS.

THE IMAGE OF PRESIDENT OBAMA DOING THE WAVE WITH RAUL CASTRO AT A BASEBALL GAME, I THINK HE WAS PRETTY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE NATURE OF THAT REGIME.

WELL, THAT WAS MISPLACED OPTIMISM.

AND WHAT WE ENDEAVORED TO DO WHEN WE REASSESSED OUR POLICY AND STRATEGY TOWARD CUBA WAS TO UNDERSTAND THE REAL POWER STRUCTURE AND THE NATURE OF THAT REGIME, AND TO RECOGNIZE THAT OUR OPENING TO CUBA ACTUALLY HAD THE OPPOSITE OF THE INTENDED EFFECT BECAUSE THE CUBAN ARMY'S STILL IN CHARGE OF THE ECONOMY, SO THE ECONOMIC DISCOURSE AND THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS ASSOCIATED WITH IT ACTUALLY HELPED THE CUBAN ARMY CONSOLIDATE CONTROL AND ACTUALLY GAVE IT MORE RESOURCES TO BOLSTER OTHER AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES THAT ARE STIFLING HUMAN FREEDOM AND INFLICTING GREAT HARM ON THEIR PEOPLE, AND IN THIS CASE ESPECIALLY, VENEZUELA.

AND SO ACTUALLY, I THINK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY FOR CUBA WAS WELL INTENTIONED, BUT IT WAS IN MANY WAYS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WAS REQUIRED.

AND I THINK WHAT'S REQUIRED TODAY IS A STRONG POLICY TOWARD CUBA THAT WILL ONLY GIVE CUBA ECONOMIC BENEFITS ASSOCIATED WITH WELCOMING THEM BACK INTO ECONOMIC DISCOURSE WITH THE UNITED STATES IF THAT REGIME REALLY DOES REFORM.

AND OF COURSE, WHAT YOU'RE SEEING CUBA TODAY I THINK IN PART IS A RESULT OF THE RESTORATION OF A POLICY THAT REALLY WAS AIMED TO FORCE THE CUBAN REGIME TO MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN CONTINUING ITS DICTATORSHIP OR REFORMING.

AS YOU SEE, I THINK A REAL NASCENT, LOUDER REFORM MOVEMENT WITHIN CUBA, THAT I HOPE WILL ULTIMATELY RESULT IN THE FREEING OF THE CUBAN PEOPLE FROM THE OPPRESSION THAT THEY'VE SUFFERED SINCE THE LATE 1950S AND EARLY 1960S.

>>GENERAL, I WANTED TO ASK A LITTLE ABOUT THE INFLUENCE OF DOMESTIC POLITICS ON FOREIGN POLICY.

NOW THAT YOU'VE WORKED IN THE POLICY MAKING FIELD, HOW MUCH OF A HINDRANCE IS DOMESTIC POLITICS ON THIS PROCESS?

>>WELL, IT CAN BE A HINDRANCE.

AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN LESSONS FROM HOW AND WHY VIETNAM BECAME AN AMERICAN WAR, STORY I TOLD IN DERELICTION OF DUTY, AND I RECAP THAT IN THE CONCLUSION OF BATTLEGROUNDS, AND THAT I WAS DETERMINED TO TRY TO INSULATE THE NATIONAL SECURITY POLICY DEVELOPMENT PROCESS, THE DEVELOPMENT OF OPTIONS FOR THE PRESIDENT FROM PARTISAN POLITICS.

RIGHT?

AND BECAUSE IF DECISIONS ARE MADE, IF OPTIONS ARE DEVELOPED WITH PARTISAN POLITICS IN MIND, IT COULD MASK THE LONG-TERM COSTS AND CONSEQUENCES OF DECISIONS.

AND IT COULD FORECLOSE ON THE PRESIDENT'S ABILITY TO MAKE THE BEST DECISION THAT'S IN THE LONG-TERM INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BROADLY.

OF COURSE, PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO ADVOCATE FOR A POSITION BASED ON PARTISAN POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS, THEY WILL STILL HAVE A VOICE AS THOSE OPTIONS GO TO THE PRESIDENT.

BUT I DIDN'T WANT THAT TO INFECT THE PROCESS.

SO THE WAY WE DID THIS IS WHEN WE WERE FRAMING THESE CHALLENGES, WHETHER IT WAS CUBA, OR VENEZUELA POLICY, OR THE CHINA POLICY, OR RUSSIA, OR WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE SYRIAN CIVIL WAR, OR STABILIZING IRAQ, AND DEFEATING ISIS, OR THE SOUTH ASIA STRATEGY CENTERED ON THE AFGHANISTAN WAR.

WHAT WE TRIED TO DO IS BRING A BROAD RANGE OF VOICES IN AS WE DEVELOPED OPTIONS FOR THE PRESIDENT.

AND SO ON THE CUBA ISSUE, FOR EXAMPLE, OUR TEAM I THINK DID A GREAT JOB OF CONSULTING THOSE IN CONGRESS WHO HAD REALLY A BROAD RANGE OF VIEWS ON CUBA.

INTERESTINGLY, THEY DIDN'T FALL OUT ALONG DEMOCRAT PARTY OR REPUBLICAN PARTY LINES.

THERE WERE MEMBERS OF BOTH PARTIES WHO WERE FOR MAINTAINING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION APPROACH.

AND THERE WERE OTHERS ACROSS BOTH PARTIES WHO WERE FOR THE SHIFT WE PUT IN PLACE.

SO WE DID CONSULT THOSE WHO MAY HAVE WHAT YOU COULD DESCRIBE AS PARTISAN VIEWS AS PART OF THE PROCESS.

BUT WE DIDN'T LET THAT AFFECT OUR DECISION MAKING PROCESS AND LIMIT THE OPTIONS THAT WENT TO THE PRESIDENT.

WHEN LYNDON JOHNSON WAS MAKING DECISIONS ON VIETNAM, HIS ADVISORS DETERMINED THE OPTION THEY THOUGHT HE WANTED BASED ON HIS DOMESTIC POLITICAL PRIORITIES, AND THEY GAVE HIM REALLY ONLY A SHINED UP VERSION OF THAT OPTION.

AND THAT WAS A GREAT DISSERVICE TO THE NATION AND ALSO TO THE PRESIDENT.

SO IT'S IN THE PRESENTATION OF MULTIPLE OPTIONS THAT YOU CAN COMPARE THEM.

YOU CAN COMPARE THE RISKS AND COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM, THE LIKELIHOOD THAT YOU'LL BE ABLE TO MAKE PROGRESS TOWARD YOUR OBJECTIVES AT ACCEPTABLE COST TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

SO ANYWAY, I DID BRING THESE LESSONS OF VIETNAM WITH ME, AND FOREMOST AMONG THEM WAS NOT TO ALLOW PARTISAN POLITICS TO INFECT THE PROCESS, AND LIMIT THE OPTIONS THAT ARE PRESENTED THE PRESIDENT.

NOW I'LL TELL YOU, DAVID, THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE THAT, WHO ACTUALLY, SOME PEOPLE I THINK WHO SERVE IN ANY ADMINISTRATION, AREN'T THERE TO GIVE THE ELECTED PRESIDENT OPTIONS.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY THERE TO TRY TO MANIPULATE DECISIONS CONSISTENT WITH THEIR OWN AGENDA.

RIGHT?

SO THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I GOT USED UP IN ABOUT A 14 MONTH TIME SPAN AS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

>>I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO THE STRATEGIC EMPATHY AND ASK YOU IF YOU COULD THINK OF SPECIFIC EXAMPLES THAT DIDN'T WORK SPECIFIC TO THE MIDDLE EAST, FOR EXAMPLE.

>>ABSOLUTELY.

SO STRATEGIC EMPATHY, I THINK ONE OF THE AREAS IN WHICH WE FAIL TO RECOGNIZE REALLY THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE EMOTIONS AND ASPIRATIONS AND IDEOLOGY [INAUDIBLE] AND THE OTHERS IS WITH IRAN POLICY.

I WRITE ABOUT THIS EXTENSIVELY IN THE BOOK ABOUT HOW MULTIPLE ADMINISTRATIONS, REALLY BEGINNING WITH THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION RIGHT AFTER THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION IN 1979, ASSUMED THAT A CONCILIATORY APPROACH TOWARD IRAN WOULD MODERATE THE REGIME'S BEHAVIOR, WOULD STRENGTHEN MODERATES WITHIN THAT REGIME, AND COULD LEAD TO REFORMS AND LEAD TO A REDUCTION IN IRANIAN BEHAVIOR THAT CUTS AGAINST US INTERESTS IN THE REGION, ESPECIALLY LIMITING THE VIOLENCE THAT IRAN EXPORTS AND THE THREAT THAT IRAN POSES TO ITS ARAB NEIGHBORS, AND ESPECIALLY ISRAEL.

AND I WRITE ABOUT HOW EVERY ADMINISTRATION REALLY UP TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN THIS CONCILIATORY APPROACH IN THE HOPE THAT IRAN WOULD CHANGE ITS BEHAVIOR.

BUT WHAT THEY UNDERVALUED, WHAT EACH OF THESE ADMINISTRATIONS UNDERVALUED, AND I THINK WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS UNDERVALUING TODAY AS WELL, IS FIRST OF ALL, THE IDEOLOGY OF THE REVOLUTION AND HOW THAT IDEOLOGY DRIVES THE REGIME, DRIVES THE REGIME TOWARD THE EXPORT OF THE REVOLUTION AND THIS KIND OF FORWARD DEFENSE MENTALITY THAT THE IRANIAN THEOCRATIC DICTATORSHIP HAS.

THERE'S ALSO ASSOCIATED WITH THE DESIRE TO ESTABLISH IRANIAN HEGEMONIC INFLUENCE OVER THE REGION, REALLY TO BE ABLE TO HAVE PREPONDERANT SAY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THEY'RE DOING THIS OBVIOUSLY THROUGH THE SECOND FACTOR THAT WE FAIL TO CONSIDER, IS THIS FOUR DECADE LONG PROXY WAR THAT IRAN HAS BEEN WAGING AGAINST THE GREAT SATAN, THE UNITED STATES, BECAUSE PUSHING US OUT OF THE REGION IS THE FIRST STEP TOWARD ACHIEVING ITS OBJECTIVES AND THREATENING ISRAEL DIRECTLY, THE LITTLE SATAN, ISRAEL, AND THE ARAB MONARCHIES.

AND WE DON'T CONSIDER REALLY HOW THE REGIME IS DETERMINED TO CONTINUE TO KEEP THE ARAB WORLD PERPETUALLY WEAK AND ENMESHED IN CONFLICT BY APPLYING KIND OF THE HEZBOLLAH MODEL TO THE REGION, WHERE THEY HAVE, AS THEY DO IN LEBANON, A VERY WEAK GOVERNMENT IN POWER THAT IS SOMEWHAT DEPENDENT ON IRAN FOR SUPPORT WHILE IRAN GROWS MILITIAS OUTSIDE OF THAT GOVERNMENT'S CONTROL, HEZBOLLAH AND LEBANON, THE MILITIAS IN SYRIA, THE SO-CALLED HASHTASHABI OR OTHER MILITIAS IN IRAQ, THE HOUTHIS IN YEMEN, THEY CAN BE TURNED AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT IF THAT GOVERNMENT ACTS AGAINST IRANIAN INTERESTS.

AND THIS IS WHAT'S GENERATING THIS HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE CENTERED ON THE SYRIAN CIVIL WAR.

AND WE DON'T CONSIDER IT, SO WE DON'T ACTUALLY VIEW THE PROBLEM SET IN THE REGION FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE IRANIANS.

AND THEREFORE, I THINK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION MADE THE GRAVE MISTAKE OF THINKING THAT THIS IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, AND AGAIN, SIMILAR TO THE ASSUMPTIONS MADE ABOUT CUBA, AND WELCOMING IRAN BACK INTO THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER WOULD LEAD TO NOT ONLY A MODERATION IN ITS BEHAVIOR, BUT A TRANSFORMATION IN THE VERY NATURE OF THE REGIME.

I THINK SADLY, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS RESURRECTING THE SAME FLAWS OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TOWARD IRAN.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST DRAMATIC EXAMPLES IN THE BOOK.

AND I CAN TALK MORE ABOUT AFGHANISTAN WAS WELL, AS I THINK A MAJOR EXAMPLE OF STRATEGIC NARCISSISM.

>>ON IRAN, YOU JOKE IN THE BOOK ABOUT MYRAN, IRAN, WE WANT TO PRONOUNCE THINGS EVEN HOW WE WANT TO PRONOUNCE THEM, RATHER THAN HOW THEY SHOULD BE PRONOUNCED.

BUT WHAT DO WE DO TO ACTUALLY CHANGE THE SITUATION, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE LOOK NEXT DOOR, AND AN EXAMPLE LIKE IRAQ, WHERE WE ACTUALLY DID HAVE A REGIME CHANGE AND HAD A GREAT DEAL OF HUBRIS IN WHAT WOULD COME NEXT?

>>YEAH.

I THINK WHAT MAKES SENSE IS TO DEVELOP A POLICY, AND THIS IS WHAT I ARGUE FOR THE BOOK, AND THE TITLE OF THE CHAPTER IS CALLED FORCING A CHOICE, THAT FORCES THE IRANIAN LEADERSHIP TO MAKE A CHOICE OF EITHER BEHAVING LIKE A NORMAL, RESPONSIBLE NATION, AND STOPPING ITS SUPPORT FOR TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS AND MILITIAS THAT HAVE CREATED AND ARE PERPETUATING THIS HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE ACROSS THE REGION, OR SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES OF ECONOMIC ISOLATION, BUT NOT ALLOWING THEM TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

I MEAN, THE SAD PART ABOUT THE JCPOA IS THE JCPOA ALLOWED THEM TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

AS SOON AS THOSE RESTRICTIONS WERE LIFTED, AND WE HAD A BIG CASH PAYOFF AS PART OF THE IRANIANS, THE IRANIANS IMMEDIATELY INCREASED THEIR STIPEND TO HEZBOLLAH BY $700 MILLION AND GAVE $100 MILLION TO HAMAS IN GAZA.

AND WE'VE SEEN WITH HAMAS HAS DONE WITH THAT, NOT ONLY WITH THAT MONEY, BUT THE IRANIAN PROVIDED ROCKETS, ALMOST 4000 OF WHICH THEY JUST FIRED AT ISRAELI CIVILIANS.

SO I THINK THERE IS A CONNECTION THERE BETWEEN THE JCPOA AND THE SANCTIONS RELIEF AND THE PROXY WARS THAT IRAN IS FIGHTING.

SO HEY, LET'S FORCE THEM TO MAKE A CHOICE.

AND IT WOULD BE THE OVERALL APPROACH.

NOW IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGHER TO DO BECAUSE CHINA NOW IS BUYING A MILLION BARRELS OF OIL A DAY FROM IRAN.

AND SO THE TRENDS ARE IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, BUT I THINK ALLEVIATING THE PRESSURE WOULD BE THE WRONG CHOICE.

NOW TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT REGIME CHANGE, YES, WE SHOULD WANT THE REGIME TO CHANGE, NOT IN A 2003 IRAQ, US IMPOSING A CHANGE, BUT TO PUT IN PLACE A POLICY THAT ENCOURAGES THE IRANIAN PEOPLE OVER TIME TO AFFECT A CHANGE IN THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT SUCH THAT IT CEASES ITS PERMANENT HOSTILITY TO THE UNITED STATES, ISRAEL, AND ITS ARAB NEIGHBORS, AND THE WEST BROADLY.

AND I THINK THAT MAKES SENSE TO DO IT, AND WE OUGHT TO EVALUATE THE SPECIFIC ASPECTS OF A POLICY BASED ON WHETHER IT CONTRIBUTES TO OR DETRACTS FROM THAT LONG-TERM GOAL.

SO THAT'S WHAT I WOULD ARGUE THE POLICY WOULD BE, YES, FOR REGIME CHANGE OVER TIME BECAUSE THIS REGIME HAS PROVEN OVER THE YEARS WITH BOMBINGS OF A MARINE BARRACKS AND OUR EMBASSY IN LEBANON IN 1983, THE ATTACKS ON US NAVAL VESSELS IN THE GULF, THE ATTACKS ON US FORCES IN AFRICA AND ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST, THE BOMBING OF KHOBAR TOWERS IN SAUDI ARABIA, THE KILLING THROUGH THEIR PROXIES OF OVER 600 AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

SO I THINK THE REGIME HAS DEMONSTRATED ITS PERMANENT HOSTILITY, AND IT'S ONLY LOGICAL FOR US TO PUT IN PLACE A POLICY THAT WOULD WANT IT TO EVOLVE AWAY FROM THAT PERMANENT HOSTILITY.

>>THERE ARE PROBABLY MANY PEOPLE WATCHING, AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE MAY WANT TO BECOME YOU IN THE FUTURE.

TO WRAP IT ALL UP, YOU'RE A LEADER, AND I WANT TO KNOW, AND THEY MAY WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT HAS TAKEN, IN A NUTSHELL, TO DO EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE DONE, AND OVERCOME CHALLENGES WITH INTERNATIONAL CONFLICTS.

WHAT CAN YOU SAY WHAT HAS KEPT YOU GOING?

>>YEAH.

WELL, I THINK I DREW STRENGTH FROM THE EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE THAT I GOT TO SERVE WITH OVER THE YEARS.

AND I DREW STRENGTH FROM MY FELLOW SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN, WHO I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE WITH, BUT THEN ALSO, MY PARTNERS INTERNATIONALLY AS WELL.

AND I THINK OFTENTIMES THESE DAYS, WE ARE DRIVEN TOWARD DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHAT DIVIDE US, WHAT OUR VERY SPECIFIC IDENTITY CATEGORY IS, AND HOW THAT MAKES US DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER.

BUT KATIE, WHAT REALLY I DREW STRENGTH FROM ACROSS MY CAREER WAS OUR COMMON HUMANITY.

AND WE THINK ABOUT LONG SERVICE IN THE ARMY AS SERVICE ASSOCIATED WITH BEING A WARRIOR, AND THAT'S TRUE.

BUT I THINK OUR WARRIORS TODAY ARE ALSO HUMANITARIANS WHO DO DEMONSTRATE TREMENDOUS EMPATHY FOR OTHERS AND BUILD WORKING RELATIONSHIPS ACROSS THE WORLD, THAT CUT ACROSS CULTURES.

RIGHT?

BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, DON'T WE ALL KIND OF WANT THE SAME THING?

DON'T WE WANT A BETTER WORLD FOR OUR CHILDREN?

AND SO I THINK THAT WHEREAS WE HAVE TO BE SENSITIVE TO CULTURAL DIFFERENCES AND PERSPECTIVES IN THE WORLD, WE ALSO OUGHT TO NOT MASK OUR COMMON HUMANITY AND HOW WE CAN WORK TOGETHER TO BUILD A BETTER FUTURE.

>>GENERAL H.R.

MCMASTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON OUR SHOW TODAY.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE IN AND OUT OF UNIFORM.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>>AND WHAT A PLEASURE TO BE WITH BOTH OF YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.