>> WITH SO MUCH OF THE FOCUSON THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHEUNFOLDING IN GAZA, MASSCASUALTY, POPULATIONSDISPLACEMENT AND DESTRUCTION,AS AUTHORITIES SAY ITIS UNLIKEANYTHING SEEN IN PREVIOUSAGGRESSIONS.

THAT IS THEIR WORD.

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH PROGRAMDIRECTOR JOINS US TO DISCUSSTHE INCREASINGLY GRAVE SITUATIONON THE GROUND IN GAZA AND THEOCCUPIED WEST BANK.

>> THANK YOU SOMUCH FORJOINING US.

JUST RECENTLY THE U. N. HUMANRIGHTS COMMISSION SAID THAT THEEVACUATION THAT ISRAEL HASORDERED OF THE PALESTINIANSWOULD BE A FORCIBLE TRANSFER OFCIVILIANS.

DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A HUMANRIGHTS VIOLATION?

>> YES.

WHILE WARRING ARMIES AREENCOURAGED TO WARN CIVILIANSWHERE SUCH WARNING CAN ACTUALLYHELP KEEP THEMSELVESSAFE, THEEVACUATION ORDER THAT THEISRAELI MILITARY ISSUED ONFRIDAY DOES NOT THAT CATEGORYAND IT RISKS CIVIL TRANSFER.

THEY ORDERED 1 MILLION PEOPLE,ONLY HALF OF THEM ARE CHILDREN,TO LEAVE NORTHERN GAZA, THAT ISHALF THE POPULATION ANDEVACUATE TO THE SOUTH.

BUT THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE TOGO TO BECAUSE THEY CONTINUEDBOMBING THE SOUTH.

AND THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO GETTHERE BECAUSE THEY CONTINUEDBOMBING EVEN THE EVACUATIONROUTES THAT THEY DESIGNATEDVARIED UNDER THOSECIRCUMSTANCES IT IS NOTANEFFECTIVE WARNING AND IT IS NOTPROTECTING CIVILIANS.

IT RUNS THE RISK OFTHE COMINGFORCIBLE TRANSFER.

IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE THEISRAELI MILITARY ALSOENCOURAGED PALESTINIANS TO FLEETO EGYPT.

70% OF THE PEOPLE LIVING INGAZA ARE REFUGEES FROM WHAT ISNOW ISRAEL.

SO SOME OF THE OLDER PEOPLETHAT WERE FLEEING THEIR HOMESON FRIDAY REMEMBERED 75 YEARSAGO, FLEEING HOMES IN SOUTHERNISRAEL AS THE ISRAELI ARMYAPPROACHED.

AND THEY ALSO REMEMBER THATTHEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO COMEBACK.

>> SO WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCESHERE IF ISRAEL CONTINUES TOCARRY THESE ACTIONS OUT?

RIGHT NOW THEY SEEM TO HAVE AMILITARY PLAN IN PLACE AND ITIS A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE THEYLAUNCH WHAT WOULD BE A GROUNDOFFENSIVE.

>> NONE OF THIS IS INEVITABLE.

THE UNITED STATES IS SUPPLYINGTHE ISRAELI MILITARY WITH $3.

8BILLION IN MILITARY AID EVERYYEAR AND THEY ARE NOW RUSHINGADDITIONAL WEAPONS.

THEY ARE ALSO PROVIDING ISRAELWITH POLITICALCOVER ANDDIPLOMATIC COVER.

THE UNITED STATES HAS ANOPPORTUNITY TO BE VERY SPECIFICIN TELLING ISRAEL THAT IT NEEDSTO PROTECT CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

AND THOSE SPECIFICS WOULD FIRSTOF ALL TO BE TO CANCEL THEEVACUATION ORDER AND TO PROTECTCIVILIANS IRRESPECTIVE OF WHERETHEY ARE.

MANY PEOPLE IN NORTHERN GAZADID NOT LEAVE, EITHER BECAUSETHEY COULDN'T,THEY ARE OLDERPEOPLE OR PEOPLE WITHDISABILITIES, HOSPITALPATIENTS, BECAUSE THE MAINHOSPITAL IN GAZA IS IN THEEVACUATION ZONE.

OR THEY CHOSE NOT TO BECAUSETHEY WERE FACING IMPOSSIBLECHOICES AND THE CONDITIONS INTHE SOUTH ARE NOT GOOD TO SAYTHE LEAST.

THOSE PEOPLE RETAIN THEIRCIVILIAN PROTECTIONS.

IF THE ISRAELI MILITARY DOESLAUNCH A GROUND INVASION IT MENOTTARGET OR INDISCRIMINATELYATTACK THEM.

THE SECOND THING THE UNITEDSTATES GOVERNMENT IS TO ASK THEISRAELI GOVERNMENT, TELL THEISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO DOIMMEDIATELY IS TO RESTORE FUEL,ELECTRICITY, WATER, AND FOODSUPPLIES TO GAZA.

THEY'VE BEEN CUT SINCE OCTOBER7th.

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT, WHICH ISWHAT DENYING SUPPLIES ARE ANDFORCIBLE TRANSFER ARE WARCRIMES.

AND I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR,WHAT HAMAS LED FIGHTERS DID ONOCTOBER 7th WAS AN UNSPEAKABLEWAR CRIME.

THEY MASSACREDCIVILIANS, TOOKHOSTAGE CHILDREN AND PEOPLEWITH DISABILITIES, BABIES ANDOLDER PEOPLE.

IT WAS UNSPEAKABLE.

BUT THE FACT THAT THE OTHERSIDE IS MEETING WAR CRIMESDOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU GET TOCOMMIT MORE CRIMES.

AND IT NEEDS TO BE VERY CLEARTHAT ISRAEL HAS TO PROTECTCIVILIANS IN GAZAYOU ARESUFFERING VERY DIFFICULTCIRCUMSTANCES.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS FROMTHE OUTSIDE IT SEEMS LIKE THEIDEASABOUT THE LAWS OF WAR,WHAT IS FAIR OR WHAT IS NOTFAIR, TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN FORAN ERA WHERE YOU CAN TELL WHOTHE SOLDIERS WERE BECAUSE THEYWERE WERE WEARING THIS COLORUNIFORM AND THEY WERE STANDINGOPPOSITE A FIELD FROM YOU.

BUT NOW,ONE OF THE CONCERNSTHAT ISRAEL HAS IS HOW DO ITELL WHO IS A CIVILIAN AND HOWDO I TELL WHO IS NOT?

>> I SEE IT A BIT DIFFERENTLY.

WHEN YOU CUT WATER TO APOPULATION OF 2.

2 MILLIONPEOPLE, NEARLY HALF OF WHOMARECHILDREN, YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHATTHAT IS GOING TO DO.

THAT IS NOT ABOUT SECURITY.

THAT IS COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENTAND IT IS MATCHED BY STATEMENTSTHE DEFENSE MINISTER SAYINGTHAT THEY WILL HAVE A TOTALSIEGE IN GAZA.

WHEN YOU DROP WEAPONS INDENSELY POPULATED AREAS,EXPLOSIVE WEAPONS THAT HAVEWIDE AREA AFFECTS, IT ISPREDICTABLE THAT YOU WILL KILLCIVILIANS.

IT IS PREDICTABLE THAT YOU WILL KILL CHILDREN.

ANDTHAT IS WHATHAS HAPPENED.

NEARLY 3000 PEOPLE IN GAZA HAVEBEEN KILLED, ABOUT 1/3 OF THEMCHILDREN, SINCE OCTOBER 7thISRAELI AIRSTRIKES HAVE BEENKILLING 100 CHILDREN A DAY INGAZA.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE LOSS OFWAR OR THE PROBLEM IS THE LACKOF CONSISTENCY.

THE VERY SAME OUTREACH THATAPPROPRIATELY MADE ISRAELIS ANDAMERICANS SO HORRIFIED BY WHATHAMAS LED FIGHTERS DID TOISRAELI CIVILIANS ON OCTOBER 7NEEDS TO BE THE SAME PRINCIPLETHAT APPLIES TO THE CIVILIANSIN GAZA.

WE ARE TRYING TO HOLD OPEN ANARROW SPACE OF UNIVERSALPRINCIPLES.

CIVILIANS NEED TO BE PROTECTED.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY AREISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN.

CHILDREN NEED TO BE PROTECTED.

THAT IS NOT HARD, OR ITSHOULDN'T BE HARD.

>> RECENTLY HAMASPOSTED AVIDEO OF ONE OF THE HOSTAGESTHEY ARE HOLDING.

WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS THATH AMAS NEEDS TO MEET, HOW SHOULDTHOSE PEOPLE BE TREATED AT THISTIME?

>> THE FIRST THING THEY SHOULDDO IS UNCONDITIONALLY RELEASEALL THE CIVILIANS THEY AREHOLDING HOSTAGE.

HOSTAGETAKING IS AWAR CRIMEAND IT'S IMPORTANT.

WE KNOW IT INCLUDES PEOPLE WITHDISABILITIES AND OLDER PEOPLE, I THINK THE OLDEST IS 85 ANDTHE YOUNGEST IS NINE MONTHSOLD.

THEY NEED TO BE RELEASEDIMMEDIATELY AND UNCONDITIONALLY.

THEY NEED TO BE TREATED HUMANELY.

AND LAST WEEK THE HAMASMILITARY THREATENED TO EXECUTECIVILIANS IF THE AIRSTRIKESCONTINUED.

THAT IN ITSELF IS A WAR CRIME.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING IN ANDWHATSTUDYING WHAT HAS BEENHAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EASTFOR DECADES NOW.

AND I WONDER, BECAUSE, JUST AS AJEWISH WOMAN MARRIED TO APALESTINIAN MAN, WHAT HAS BEENGOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD FOR THEPAST WEEK?

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN THIS ALLFIRST HAPPENED ON SATURDAY IHAD TO ADDRESS MY CHILDREN'SQUESTIONS.

WHY WAS THERE COUSIN SO SCARED,WHY WAS THEIR GRANDMOTHERTRYING TO EVACUATE, WHAT WASHAPPENING?

AND I TOLD MY DAUGHTER WHAT IALWAYS TOLD HER.

THAT THERE ARE ABUSESTAKINGPLACE AGAINST PALESTINIANS.

BUT THAT THERE IS NEVER ANYJUSTIFICATION FOR KILLINGPEOPLE.

AND THAT SOME PEOPLE WHO OPPOSEWHAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ISDOING TO PALESTINIANS KILLED ALOT OF PEOPLE.

AND THAT WAS HORRIFIC.

MY DAUGHTER GETS IT VARIED MYDAUGHTER UNDERSTANDS THATPEOPLE ARE PEOPLE AND THAT YOUDON'T HAVE DIFFERENT STANDARDSFOR ISRAELIS OR PALESTINIANS.

SHE UNDERSTANDS THAT WE ARE ALLHUMAN BEINGS BECAUSE SHE LOVESPEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'M WORRIEDABOUT IS THE US VERSUS THEMDISCOURSETHAT WE ARE SEEING,CERTAINLY IN ISRAEL BUT ALSO INTHE UNITED STATES.

IT BECOMES, BUT THEY ARE WORSETHAN WE ARE.

THAT IS NEITHER CONSTRUCTIVE ORPARTICULARLY NORMAL.

WE HAVE OBLIGATIONS AS HUMANBEINGS TO PROTECTCIVILIANS ANDTO PROTECT OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

THAT IS THE ONLY WAY WE WILLGET OUT OF THIS.

THIS VIOLENCE DIDN'T COME IN AVACUUM.

IT CAME AFTER DECADES OFOPPRESSION OF PALESTINIANS BYTHE ISRAELI GOVERNMENTTHATINNO WAY JUSTIFIES WHAT IS DONE.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZETHAT IF WE WANT THIS TO STOP WENEED TO ADDRESS THE ROOTCAUSES.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, FORDECADES, HAS BEEN ENGAGING INFORCIBLE TRANSFER OFPALESTINIANS AT THE WEST BANK,TAKING THEIR LAND AND SETTINGASIDE FOR JEWISH SETTLERS.

THAT ALL NEEDS TO STOPTHE DAYAFTER THIS WAR ENDS.

AND RIGHT NOW THE UNITED STATESGOVERNMENT HAS PARTICULARRESPONSIBILITIES TO EMPHASIZETHOSE UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES.

THE PRINCIPLES THAT MY NINE-YEAR-OLD GETS BUT UNFORTUNATELYBIG GROWN-UPS DON'T SEEM TO GET.

>> SO WHAT CAN BE DONE CONSIDERING AT THIS POINT THEREHAVE BEEN PERHAPSMORE CRIMESCOMMITTED.

BUT BY THE TIME ANY OF THESEWORK CRIMES ARE PROSECUTED THEDAMAGE IS ALREADY DONE.

DO WE HAVE ANY KIND OF LABORS ORMECHANISMS WHERE WECAN PREVENTTHEM FROM CONTINUING TO HAPPEN?

>> WE HAVE ASKED THEINTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURTPROSECUTOR TO ISSUE PREVENTATIVEWARNINGS.

THERE IS ONGOINGINVESTIGATIONBY GAZA AND THE ISRAELIMILITARY AND THERE IS ANOPPORTUNITY TO ISSUE A WARNINGSAYING THAT WE ARE CONCERNEDFOR THE CRIMES THAT ARE BEINGCOMMITTED, PLEASE STOP.

THE U. S. GOVERNMENT CAN DO THESAME THING.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN IS SUPPOSEDTO BE IN ISRAEL IN A FEW HOURS.

WHAT SHOULD HE BE SAYING THERE?

>> ASIAN SAY TO CANCEL THEEVACUATION ORDER FROM FRIDAY.

STOP DROPPING EXPLOSIVE WEAPONSINTENSELY POPULATED AREASBECAUSE IF YOU DO THAT YOU WILLKILL CIVILIANS.

AND IMMEDIATELYRESTORESUPPLIES OF FOOD, FUEL, WATERAND ELECTRICITY.

THAT'S RIGHT NOW.

LATER ON WE CAN TALK ABOUT SOMEOF THE ROOT CAUSE OF WHY THISIS GOING ON RIGHTNOW.

AND OTHER COUNTRIES TO LOOK ATTHEIR ATROCITY PENSIONMEASURES.

THEY HAVE MEASURES THAT THEYLOOK AT STATEMENTS OF CONCERNBY DIFFERENT GOVERNMENTSINCLUDING WHAT WE'VE SEENRECENTLY BY ISRAELI OFFICIALSAND THEY HAVE MECHANISMS THEYCAN USE TO RAIN THAT INANDEXPRESS STRONG CONCERN.

I CAN VERY MUCH UNDERSTAND HOWHORRIFIED PEOPLE ANDALSOPOLICYMAKERS IN THE UNITEDSTATES AND EUROPE ARE BY WHATTHE HAMAS LED FIGHTERS DID TOISRAELI CIVILIANS.

BUT THEY NEED TO BE VERY CLEARTHAT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW INGAZA CANNOT CONTINUE.

CIVILIANS NEED TO BE PROTECTED FULL STOP.

>> WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPENNEXT?

>> A LOT OF IT DEPENDS ON WHATTHE UNITED STATES DECIDES TODO.

IF THE UNITED STATES DECIDESTHAT IT WILL RAIN IN THEISRAELI MILITARY AND ASK THEMTO, FOR EXAMPLE, RESTORESUPPLIES TO CIVILIANSTOPROTECT CIVILIANS, I THINKTHERE IS A CHANCE THINGS CANGET BETTER.

IF THEY DON'T, I'M VERYWORRIED.

>> IT SEEMS, IN SOME WAYS,HUMAN NATURE THAT WHEN YOUAREHURT YOU TURN AROUND AND TRY TOHURT OTHERS.

YOU PUNCH BACK OR FEEL LIKE THEBEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE.

HOW DO YOU STOP THAT CYCLE FROMPERPETUATING?

>> YOU ADHERE TOBASICPRINCIPLES.

YOU ASKED IF THELAWS OF WARARE STILL VALID ANDAPPROPRIATE.

ABSOLUTELY.

THERE ARE BOOKS WRITTEN ABOUTIT BUT IT IS ACTUALLY VERYSIMPLE.

YOU HAVE TO DETECT CIVILIANSAND PROTECT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVENOTHING TO DO WITH THE FIGHTING.

THAT, THAT ISTHE PRINCIPLETHAT CHILDREN CAN UNDERSTAND.

WHEN I TELL MY DAUGHTER, I KNOWYOUR BROTHER HIT YOU BUT THATDOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN HIT HIMBACK, I THINK WE CAN HAVE AVERY SIMPLE MESSAGE TO THEISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

I KNOW I MUST COMMITTEDUNSPEAKABLE MORE CRIMES AGAINSTCIVILIANS, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOUCAN COMMIT MORE CRIMES.

>> TELL ME WHAT IT'S LIKE FORYOUR KIDS GROWING UP IN THEWEST BANK WITH AN ISRAELIPARENT AND A PALESTINIAN.

IT IS THEIR DAY-TO-DAYEXISTENCE LIKE WHERE THEY SEETHE EFFECTS OF BEING KIND OFFROM TWO SITES?

>> I THINK IT MAKESTHEM BETTERHUMAN BEINGS.

MY CHILDREN UNDERSTAND THATTHERE ARE PRINCIPLES OF BASICHUMANITY.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSETHEY LOVE AUGUSTINIANS AND ISRAELIS.

THEYHAVE TWO SETS OFGRANDPARENTS, RELATIVES ANDFRIENDS.

THEY ARE ABLE TO WALK THATBEAUTIFUL BUT NARROWINGSPACEWHERE HUMAN BEINGS ARE HUMANBEINGS.

I THINK WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITYTO FOLLOW IN THEIR FOOTSTEPS.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO APPLYTHOSE SAME BASIC PRINCIPLES TOTHE POLICIES AND DECISIONSBEING MADE RIGHT NOW.

I'M VERY PROUD OF MY CHILDREN.

AND I THINK THAT CERTAINLY SOMEPOLICYMAKERS HAVE A LOTTOLEARN FROM THEM.

>> THIS OPERATION SEEMS TO BEMUCH LARGER THAN WHAT HAPPENEDBACK IN 2014.

I'M WONDERING WHAT YOUR BIGGESTCONCERNS ARE ABOUT THE SCALE OFWHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.

>> I'M WORRIED THAT THERE WILLNOT BE MUCH LEFT.

THIS IS ALL ABSOLUTELYUNPRECEDENTED.

THE MASSACRES AND HOSTAGETAKINGON OCTOBER 7th WERE THE WORSTISRAELI MASSACRESIN HISTORY.

AND THERE ARE AT LEAST 199ISRAELIS BEING HELD INCAPTIVITY IN GAZA.

THE DESTRUCTION BEING DONE INGAZA, BOTH OF THE CIVILIANINFRASTRUCTURE, HOSPITALS,SCHOOLS AND ROADS, BUT MORE TOTHE POINT OF PEOPLE'S LIVES ISIRREVERSIBLE.

WE ARE MOVING TO A PLACE WHEREVERY BASIC PRINCIPLES OFHUMANITYARE BEING THWARTEDVERY QUICKLY.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO MOVE VERYWEEKLY TO STOP THAT.

>> PROGRAM DIRECTORFOR THEHUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, THANK YOUSO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

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