Hundreds of college degree programs at risk.

Ads target Todd Young over energy tax credits, plus cuts at the Indiana School for the Deaf and more from the television studios at WFYI.

It's Indiana Week in Review for the week ending June 27th, 2025.

Indian Weekend Review is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.

This week, Indiana University could lose hundreds of degree programs as part of compliance with an array of new laws affecting higher education.

One of the laws requires public colleges and universities to eliminate programs with low enrollment numbers averaged over a three year period.

The cutoff is 15 graduates for a bachelor's degree, seven for a masters, and three for a doctorate.

Based on federal data from 2023, around 200 BA, Ma and PhD programs at IU Bloomington fell short.

Indiana Public Broadcasting does not have data for degrees conferred in the two years since, and IU has not commented on programs at risk.

So far, most faculty don't know what to expect.

President elect of the Bloomington faculty Council, Heather Akou, says she hasn't heard anything from the university, but that it's, quote, aggressively moving to get in line with the law.

There are going to be big changes for this university, and the pace at which this is being pushed through is just really it's not designed for positive outcomes.

Most of the low enrollment degrees are in the humanities and languages.

Jewish studies, classical studies and multiple language departments could lose their main offerings.

The university declined an interview, but spokesperson Mark Bode wrote in an email, IU is working with campus leaders to comply with the process mandated by state law.

Our degree program reductions the right move.

It's the first question for our Indiana Week in Review panel.

Democrat Ann DeLaney Republican Chris Mitchem.

Jon Schwawntes, host of Indiana Lawmakers and Niki Kelly, editor in chief of the Indiana Capitol Chronicle.

I'm Indiana Public Broadcasting Statehouse bureau chief Brandon Smith.

Chris, there are new Stem programs in areas deemed critical to the state's future, like artificial intelligence, microbiology, cyber operations and moore-farrell that also failed to reach this threshold in the year.

The year that we have data, public data for.

Does this suggest maybe a flaw in this blanket system?

Yeah, I think if it was just like a straight line rule, no room for maneuvering, then yeah, you would see a lot of flaws in it.

I don't think eliminating astronomy or microbiology is probably good for Indiana in the long term, or short term for that matter.

But I think that's where the flexibility comes in.

Ultimately, the Commission for Higher Education will have ultimate authority if, after a university considers mergers or trying to combine classes, if they still feel the need to keep one of these programs that don't have 15 people a year taking it, then the Commissioner for Higher Education can decide that.

And I think common sense will ultimately prevail there.

But talking to some of my colleagues in the hallway, you know, they described a bachelor program in the institution of higher education as like a mini organization.

Right.

The amount of long term resources that it takes, the regulatory approvals, the administrative burden that it takes to cooperate or to operate these things is a real burden.

So I think, you know, having that baseline of 15, if you don't have 15 people agreeing to take a course, then, you know, maybe there should be some consideration of potentially merging or fusing classes together.

You know, I'm sure you know, folklore studies has an important segment in our society.

But do you really need like 120 credit hour package to just go toward that?

Right.

So I think this is a good way to kind of trim some fat from a lot of higher education institutions.

As with anything, implementation matters as much as anything else, but is at least the idea behind this law that, hey, let's look at the overall thing.

And if people aren't using some programs, it's time to get rid of them.

Is that at least a good idea?

Not up to the General Assembly.

I mean, actually, we're really blessed in the state.

You know, the General Assembly knows what kinds of degree, what types of degrees ought to be offered, what types of courses ought to be offered all of that at all of the schools in the whole state of Indiana.

And they did it all without any testimony, any expert opinion, or any knowledge.

If they think their salaries, they think they can just cut things or they can.

You know, you have a shortage of shoes.

Okay, well, let's go make a million brown sized hand shoes.

We've checked the problem off.

That's exactly what they're doing with higher education.

They're they're interfering with academic freedom.

They're trying to interfering with the course offerings.

And when you look at the federal level, they even want to pick the institutions presidents.

I mean, it's ridiculous the war they have on higher education.

And you know, the the institutions which we have that are world class in this state can figure out whether it's economically feasible to offer a course that has 15 credit hours and they're 15 graduates, whatever.

And they're aware of the fact that these things cost them.

And they look at that overall picture and they can make those decisions a lot better than the yahoos in the General Assembly.

I want to ask about that idea, which is, do we think that all of these schools who are absolutely cash strapped, we know that they are cash strapped.

They talk all the time about how they're cash strapped.

Do we really think they are spending all of this money on programs that almost no one is taking or graduating from?

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't think so.

It doesn't make any sense for them to do that.

And and on one hand, I do think it's worth maybe looking at how many of these exist.

And so maybe we should have started with just a look in a study of how many of these exist and how much we're spending to offer these, you know, programs that not very many people are coming.

On the other hand, part of me is like, you know what this is student money.

If they want to spend it on your time, that degree.

I mean, I don't I don't know, you know, why they shouldn't be able to.

And so, you know, I do think it's part of an overall trend.

We see where the lawmakers, the Indiana General Assembly is really starting to micromanage higher ed and, you know, so, so that this is the biggest example of it so far, I think.

Let's talk a little bit about our role in this.

We have yet to see the implementation of this law in terms of what the Commission for Higher Education will do.

And it's possible the commission will be pretty, pretty broad and like, yeah, okay.

We see the reason for this program, even if the numbers aren't quite there, keep it or this is a good idea to combine or whatever.

We may see all of that is the problem from our youth perspective that there doesn't seem to be.

And this seems to be a theme with IU lately.

A lot of communication about what they're doing.

yeah, I think that is true.

and that what that has done, it has bred mistrust.

on the part of faculty.

it it's confusing for students who are trying to plan long term academic careers.

you know, doctoral students, postdocs.

They want to know that the programs that they're joining, are going to be there.

it's it's not surprising they want to map out things like everyone else.

You know, the I would say IU is a the jewel.

It is.

And I'll say Purdue as well.

I mean, the two are one institutions in our state.

They've done quite well.

I mean, yes, they're financially strapped, but, so are a lot of other schools around the country and they have found ways to parlay their their, of course, offerings into tremendous success in terms of rankings.

I know we don't like to look at rankings necessarily, but they are a force in higher American higher education.

And they matter and they matter to prospective.

Students, and it does matter to prospective students.

And as soon as you start saying a cut off and even if it's flexible and there's a Court of appeals essentially in the in the Commission on Higher Education, and even if it's an average of three years, who's to say that the person that graduates from the program of one isn't the person that will solve all of our vexing problems as a society?

maybe that is the microbiologist that cures cancer.

Maybe that is I don't know why.

Why shut the door on on opportunity.

But I would also suggest, as we all rush toward, you know, creating the next Stem workforce, and I have nothing against it.

And the fact I'm terrible at math, but other than that, my my own bias notwithstanding, you look at the fortune 500 of the fortune 100, take whatever Russell's index, look at the CEOs of these companies that are the driving forces in the American economy.

A large percentage, probably a close to a third, are arts and sciences majors.

Humanities majors.

You look there.

Even medieval history.

They are a history of art.

They are obscure aspects of European studies.

And yet they say these are the skills that equip them to be creative thinkers and not just rote memorization that allows them to apply an algorithm with the help of AI to a certain problem.

To the point I don't think that this order is saying you have to eliminate those classes, right?

Like, I think if you want to go study philosophy, for example, and have maybe have a minor in medieval studies or something like that, I think that would.

Be to a degree that they're clearly going to offer fewer classes.

Yeah.

And and you're going to hesitate to go if you know it's under review.

I would also just question what does this does I don't know the answer.

It's not a rhetorical question.

I don't know the answer to individualized majors because IU has a rich tradition, right?

Look at the, the puzzlemaster for the New York Times, graduate from IU, who I think was maybe one of the first, if only graduates in puzzle making.

Yeah.

yeah.

And the create your degree program.

And that's just one of many examples.

And if and maybe that's protected, I don't want to say it's not.

But if that goes away, that's a sad, sad state of affairs.

Time now for viewer feedback.

Each week we post an unscientific online poll question, and this week's question is, should Indiana colleges and universities eliminate degree programs that don't produce enough diplomas?

A yes or be no?

Last week, we asked you whether Secretary of State Diego Morales should be reelected in 2026 just for percent of you say yes, 96% to say no.

If you'd like to take part in the poll, go to WFYI.org slash.

We're and look for the poll.

Advocates for federal clean energy tax credits are speaking directly to U.S. senators through ads, including Todd Young of Indiana.

The credits help pay for everything from solar and wind projects to nuclear and carbon storage.

Indiana Public Broadcasting's Rebecca Thiele reports.

Ads from at least three different groups show their support for clean energy on both sides of the aisle.

All of the ads mention how the tax credits lower electric bills, create jobs, and keep U.S. manufacturing globally competitive.

The campaign built for America takes a more conservative bent.

The coalition of industries is more concerned about ensuring the U.S. is an economic powerhouse than avoiding climate impacts.

Trump country is booming.

We're building, hiring and winning in Indiana.

Its executive director, Mitch Carmichael, says his state of West Virginia created more than a thousand manufacturing jobs with the help of clean energy tax credits, including at a battery plant and a solar powered microgrid.

There's nothing more conservative, really, than providing low cost taxes.

On businesses that are creating.

Jobs and on shoring manufacturing.

Todd Young sits on the Senate's Finance Committee, a key committee looking at the reconciliation bill.

Ann DeLaney, can these have ads have an impact?

I think they possibly can.

I mean, it's certainly if he if he does the right thing and helps with clean energy, it seems to me it tells the people that this is an economic development driver for the state.

And it's a good, positive thing.

And I certainly don't think they can hurt.

I think that's probably the way Todd Young will go anyway.

And this just reinforces his what I hope will be his vote and keeps the crazies and the Republicans from attacking him for supporting clean energy.

Yeah.

I mean, how in terms of impact, it's one thing for environmental groups considered to be on the left to be doing these ads, because that's exactly who you'd think they'd come from.

The fact that they're also coming from folks on the right, does that make them more impactful?

Yeah, I think so.

And if you just look at some of these ads, they kind of check all of the Republican boxes per se, if you will.

You know, it's a lot of gruff manufacturing, you know, combat China, keep jobs in America because, you know, this clean energy bill or the provision in this huge bill is so layered.

You know, I think solar farms and wind farms get all the highlights.

But to your point, there was also provisions in there about nuclear energy, carbon.

Storage.

Carbon storage, geothermal, biofuels, I know is really big.

And I think the latest version of the Senate draft keeps some of those, like the nuclear and the biofuels.

And it's kind of similar to Indiana.

Right.

Like, I know there was a bill that passed last session that pretty much made it easier for electric generation projects to go in to where electric generation facilities already were.

Like, you don't have to get local approval for that.

But in that bill, they specifically said this does not apply to wind solar projects.

There's there's like a taboo around that word, that, you know, it's obviously effective here in Indiana could be effective in federal level as well.

So I think those Republican ads do a good job of avoiding that and kind of highlighting the parts that.

Are popular.

Positively impact Republican areas.

Actually, Chris just brought up something that's in these, the ads from the conservative groups, which is a focus, on China, on combating China and their influence and impact.

That's something that's been really big for Todd Young in his time.

It was a driver for the Chips and Science Act and his support, not just support for his, his, authorship of that sponsorship of that.

is that the sort of thing that can blunt criticism from his right flank?

Well, I think there are plenty of Republicans, some of the most strident Republicans on the issue of EVs, for instance, like electric vehicles who are worried about ceding the automotive industry as a whole.

Yeah, we might be able to compete with traditional combustion engines in the short term.

But China is going gangbusters in terms of the development of the kinds of technologies that will allow battery technology to carry somebody more than, you know, a hundred miles or 100 miles, whatever the case is.

And they're, you know, that's a market.

When you lose it, how quickly can you get it back if you can't at all?

So there are a lot of Republicans that worry about that.

There are also a lot of Republicans talking about some of the clean energy aspects.

If you look at where a lot of these incentives have gone and the projects that they support, they are in red districts, in red states.

The West Virginia's of the world.

I mean, you go right down the list and they will hurt those districts, and it's already having an impact.

I just saw a study, $1.5 billion in projects have been taken off the table just last month, in May because of uncertainty about this and the vast majority in red districts.

Last thing I would say, Todd Young is somebody who clearly gets it.

You mentioned the Chips act, which is more than about just, you know, microchips.

It has to do with funding for the National Science Foundation.

It has to do with NASA.

It has to do with science generally.

And the notion that our economy is tied to a technical, technological future.

It's been a boon to many states.

That and I don't.

Notably Indiana.

Notably Indiana and other Midwestern states.

So I think, he doesn't need to apologize for that, nor would he need to apologize for supporting continued incentives in that same vein.

Well, you know, when I asked him about a different bill that included federal spending and this these credits are federal spending.

he talked about that.

He believes as a small government conservative, his role is to defend the government spending that is important and necessary.

Is this in our, you know, is this one where he can make that argument if it's something he wants to support?

I mean, he can make the argument that the vote is going to be so tight in the Senate that these ads only have to sway 1 or 2 people, right, to make a difference.

But, you know, from the other side, you know, it's priority.

It's, you know, do you want to prioritize the spending and the growth, or do you want to prioritize tax cuts, or do you want to, you know, that kind of thing.

And so basically just I'm going to come down to that.

All right.

Advocates for deaf and hard of hearing.

Hoosiers say budget cuts at the Indiana School for the deaf are becoming a crisis.

The school received a 5% cut in the new state budget and recently laid off more than a dozen staff.

The school for the deaf already had more than three dozen open, unfilled staff positions, and the state is exploring limits to school maintenance that would force teachers and staff to clean hallways, stairwells and classrooms.

Indiana Association of the Deaf President Jeffrey Spinale, through an interpreter, says he's upset but not surprised at the cuts.

It feels like they're just ignoring our.

Concerns, to be honest.

Staff professional development is also being cut in half.

Katy Aiello, whose son is a student at the school, says that's extremely concerning.

This population of children has unique needs, and the teachers really need to be able to attend those professional development days to keep up with current, you know, learning on best practices.

Aiello worries the cuts will hurt the school's ability to attract new talent in the future.

The Indiana Department of Education says budget cuts are necessary to ensure students at the school continue to have access to the high quality classroom experience necessary to thrive.

Jon.

Governor Mike Braun was asked about this yesterday, and he said he doesn't think the 5% cuts are devastating.

Does that seem to back up?

Jeffrey Spinales point that the leaders seemingly are ignoring the community's concerns?

Well, in a way, it gets back to what we were talking about a few moments ago when you just put in strict limits, either in terms of either in terms of how many people need to be in a program for it to be continued or what the appropriate cut is.

and we a few weeks ago, we talked about not only is that 5% across the board fairly rigid, but then you look at what tools various agency directors have been given, or perhaps in this case, not given with the flexibility in terms of reversions and how they could go about managing that.

So it's tough.

And we should point out some sectors of government have taken more than 5%.

They have essentially had a 5% up front and then another five.

And there's another.

Pretty soon they starts to add up to something else.

And the deaf isn't isn't immune from that additional 5% budget withholding for salaries wages.

And so you do look at some situations here where that that's challenging.

I'm no expert on it.

I don't know what best practice dictates in terms of a staff to student ratio.

I but I would have to assume that the students bearing special needs require different staffing levels.

I mean, that would seem common sense to me.

I mean, more than this.

It just seems like I don't know the answer, but perhaps, flexibility is called for.

This is a residential school.

They're students who stay there.

You know, not just, you know, during the, you know, the traditional school day hours, and they stay there overnight.

And one of the positions eliminated was the overnight nurse.

So now you don't have a health care professional on site for these students overnight.

And the state's response was, well, they're their other staff members and they know how to call 911 instead of one answer for the school.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the thing that's most interesting of this is, you know, they're treating them like a state agency, and I get that they are.

But let's remember, we had a budget in which they made no cuts to K-12, regular K-12.

Not even no cuts.

So they're they increased.

Students differently across, you know, if you go to your local school district, you got a 2% increase, but the school for the deaf gets a 5% cut.

And I think they maybe should have thought through a little more treating one school different than the whole other school system.

it should be noted.

The school for the Blind and Visually Impaired similarly got a 5% cut, in the state budget.

Is this thing is this something that, you know, Governor Braun, the last few weeks has been talking about, they built this budget on this forecast, which is a snapshot in time that he thinks won't be nearly as dire as that snapshot was at the moment.

A lot of the tariff concerns have started to ease because of deals or potential deals being backing down or more backing down or whatever.

He thinks that the revenue is not going to be nearly as bleak.

Is this something that should be reversed quickly?

If that's the.

Case?

Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see if it is.

I mean, they're building a brand new facility for the joint school, which is great.

Okay.

But then now they're saying, but you know, we we're not going to have enough people to educate you or to take care of you in the evening or anything else.

Niki's exactly right.

I mean, not only should they have gotten the 2%, they probably should have gotten more because they have those vacancies, because those positions for teachers and administrators in a program like that are hard.

They're hard to find.

And if bidding for their services obviously is going to be higher than for regular teachers, speaking teachers, I mean, and so those things need to be taken into consideration.

These kids are vulnerable, and they need that level of education to be able to thrive in the future.

And the fact that we're denying it to them is reprehensible.

Jeffrey also pointed out in the interview I did with him that if you look at funding for schools for the deaf across the country, and not every state I think has one.

But if you look at the per pupil funding, Indiana is way down the list.

So we're already doing a really good job of I mean, because the Indiana School for the deaf is considered one of the best in the country.

So and so we're already doing a great job with fewer resources than other places.

Is this an area where lawmakers on the budget Committee and the governor need to get together and go?

We need to take a closer look at this in the school for the Blind and Visually impaired.

Yeah, I think so.

Just because I think the this school has also done a really good job of giving tangible examples of what the budget cuts are actually doing, rather than, you know, a lot of your other agencies or things you're saying, you know, pandemonium, we're going to have to cancel everything.

And ultimately, nothing of that scale ultimately happens.

But you're hearing the examples from here.

I think they've made enough noise now, I know it's rare, but it has happened in the past where, you know, you do open the budget in an all season or, off budget year, to address certain things that are considered emergencies.

And to your point, with the budget forecast maybe not looking as bad as it is, I would consider this, you know, if they, you know, if they have the advocacy strategy in place, something that could be tailored in the upcoming session.

And that was also the point that Brian made when asked about that this week, which was, if lawmakers want to do that, then, you know, I'm here for.

It, especially with such a specific population like they have, I.

Think.

All right.

Governor Mike Braun is remaking the Indiana Economic Development Corporation board of directors, appointing nine new members this week to replace all of the existing board members.

Braun says he's received a lot of interest in serving on the IDC board.

That board had gotten to be maybe not as active as it should have been.

The IDC has attracted significant controversy over the last few years.

Braun ordered an independent forensic audit of the agency earlier this year after allegations of ethics violations and self-dealing by staffers employed by IDC affiliated organizations, including Elevate Ventures.

The nine new board members come from around Indiana.

They include the owner of a convenience store chain, a health care executive, a union leader, a former Democratic leader of the Indiana House of Representatives, a construction company executive, and the head of the Indiana Department of Agriculture.

The IDC board is supposed to have 15 members.

Brown says more will be appointed in the future.

Niki Kelly, we've we've talked about this a few times in the last several weeks, but is this further evidence of an entirely new direction that Mike Brown wants to take this agency?

Well, we'll see.

I mean, I certainly and seen administrations shift in the past.

I do I do find this interesting because usually when it stays within the same party's hands, you see a little bit of change in membership, but not this sort of wholesale starting over again.

So he clearly wants something different.

But at least so far I'm not seeing outwardly.

Maybe internally there are differences, a different approach.

I mean, we're still funding massive amounts of incentives for big data centers.

And, you know, so I'm not sure exactly why these new people, you know, how they're going to make things different.

I mean, maybe we'll see that in the time to come.

They also bring up a lot of questions about the fact that some of these are big campaign donors of governor Mike bronze.

Yeah.

So it brings up more questions of conflict and pay to play and things like that.

So I mean, I hope they start to do things a little differently and focus more than on just these big high tech programs that he has promised to, you know, try to look more at smaller and midsize businesses.

And Jon, quickly, is the nature of some of this economic development stuff, though, is it might take a while to see some of these changes because these things just naturally take a lot.

Of that is the nature of the beast.

Clearly he wants he's articulated a change in direction.

But what this also does, it's a convergence of that.

And I think and the notion that if think bad things are going to happen with this ongoing audit, this is a chance to say, I'm boy, I'm done, I'm out.

I took swift action, not my not my problem.

Finally, the Indiana Pacers fell to the Oklahoma City Thunder in Game seven of the NBA finals this week after star Tyrese Haliburton went down with an Achilles injury in the first half.

I don't think it's, an overshoot to say, a devastating injury.

Ann DeLaney, was this the worst possible way for the Pacers to lose.

What was certainly the worst for Haliburton?

and frankly, despite your dismissing it last week, I think that if Haliburton had played that game, I think so too.

I think so too.

Just like.

And I feel like that's why it's the worst possible way for them.

To lead to this.

We made it to the seven.

Oh, absolutely.

We weren't supposed to even be in the finals when you left.

We were talking.

At the.

Time.

I mean, it's it's the what if is just.

He was cooking.

It'll kill you, you know, y'all.

Hurry up and come back.

That's pretty impressive.

He was chirping the sidelines.

He was about to put up 40.

I know.

All right.

That's Indiana Week in review for this week.

Our panel is Democrat Ann DeLaney Republican Chris Mitchem, Jon Schwantes of Indiana lawmakers and Niki Kelly of the Indiana Capitol Chronicle.

You can find Indiana Week in reviews podcast and episodes at WFYI.org/IWIR or on the PBS app.

Im Brandon Smith of Indiana Public Broadcasting.

Join us next time, because a lot can happen in an Indiana week.

The views expressed are solely those of the panelists.

Indian Week In Review is produced by WFYI in association with Indiana Public Broadcasting Stations.