- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com, Diane Land and Steve Adler, and Karey and Chris Oddo.

- I'm Evan Smith.

He's an historian, a MacArthur and Guggenheim fellow, and the author of 17 books, including five number one New York Times bestsellers.

His latest is "Malcolm Lives!

", the official biography of Malcolm X for young readers.

He's Dr.

Ibram X. Kendi.

This is "Overheard".

(inspiring music) A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

(audience cheering) You really turn the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

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This is "Overheard".

(audience cheering) Dr.

Kendi, welcome.

- Thank you for having me.

- It's very nice to have you here and congratulations on this book, which I think is really interesting in this moment.

This is a Malcolm X moment, is it not?

- It is.

I mean, he was born a hundred years ago... - Hundred years ago this year.

Assassinated 60 years ago this year.

A lot of renewed attention on his life and on his work.

- It is, and I also think there's a lot of attention on his life and work because he evolved to become this global human rights activist.

And revolutionary.

And particularly in this moment where people in the United States and frankly all over the world are losing or their human rights are being taken from them.

I think we're looking to history and figures who were championing our human rights.

- Right.

And in a moment where people in communities all over this country are having conversations about what the best form of protest is, push back against the government.

It's really interesting to look back to how some of the people at the forefront of movements previously thought about that, how they sorted that.

Right?

- It is.

And at a moment in which you have many Americans who are looking for fighters for freedom, fighters for people who are not scared.

For people who are unwilling to compromise on integrity and on freedom.

And I think that's how a figure like Malcolm X rises, you know, to the fore in this moment.

- What do we not know about him that we ought to, like the average person who's not read all the books, who's not thought about him, probably wasn't alive, may not have been alive at the time that he was alive, but has this vague sense of him.

What's your elevator speech on the significance of Malcolm X to those people?

(audience laughing) - (laughs) It's hard to write a biography and think of- - It's a long elevator ride.

Just thinking about that.

How about that?

- But I will say that to me, his life showed the beauty of what it means to be a human being.

And this is a person who evolved over the course of his life and frankly became one of the greatest activists against racism in history.

And I think that was largely because, particularly as a young person, he faced racism and poverty in many of the most damaging and dehumanizing ways.

And so he of course had a front row seat to what he ultimately stood for and fought against when he became who we know him today as Malcolm X.

- He was fighting not just for himself, he was fighting for people like him.

Like, I mean, that's the point, is that he had experienced many of the things that he came to fight about.

Say something about his parents and say something about his upbringing so that people understand the origin story.

- Well, part of the reason why I wanted to write "Malcolm Lives!

", why I wanted to write a biography of Malcolm for young people is because his youth was one that I think we quickly skip over.

And this was a person who, when his mother was pregnant with him, she had to face down the Ku Klux Klan in Omaha, Nebraska.

Then the Klan, because of the anti-racist activism of his parents, essentially forced him out of Omaha, Nebraska.

He ends up going to Milwaukee, ends up going over to Lansing, Michigan, where his home was firebombed by local Klansmen, where his father was ultimately killed.

He believed he was assassinated, where his mother had to care for ultimately seven, eight children.

They fell into poverty.

He was laughed at and picked on at school.

He had to read books in school like "Little Black Sambo".

He was ultimately sent to a detention home.

I mean, his youth really, I think, shows young people that no matter what you go through as a young person, you could still become a great, an important change agent, particularly if you're seeking to eradicate the things that affected you and people like you.

- Has he gotten the credit that you think he deserves for being, I mean, we obviously understand that there were many people at the forefront of the movement to provide rights opportunities to all people.

Right?

Our mutual friend Peniel Joseph, the author and academic who wrote a book called "The Sword and the Shield", for instance, talked about Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, side by side, the perceptions and the misperceptions of the roles that they played.

Like we know a lot of the people who led these movements better than we know Malcolm X. I wonder if you feel like he's gotten the acknowledgement that he deserves.

- Well, I think we could, when we think of this moment and we think of the ways in which those who are fighting against racism have been misrepresented and have been maligned as not fighting for equality, but fighting, let's say, to harm white people.

That's precisely how Malcolm X was maligned, even after he went to Mecca and recognized global racial equality.

If we think of in this moment, those Americans who are unwilling to be harmed by others and are going to practice self-defense against state violence, they're mischaracterized as violent.

Not, "I'm trying to protect myself or my people," but somehow "I'm violent."

I think Malcolm X has been maligned and misrepresented in the same way.

And I think that's one of the ways in which people aren't able to see him for who he actually was.

- And have we as a country, given him sufficient visibility, official visibility in the way that we've given other leaders of the movement over time, sufficient visibility?

- I think the irony is that the way in which we've given let's say sufficient visibility to let's say a Martin Luther King Jr.

has largely been based on a misrepresentation of Martin Luther King Jr.

In the sense that even in this moment, you have people who present Martin Luther King Jr.

as this colorblind activist.

- They weaponize his words and they misread them.

- Exactly.

And so then they give him visibility based on their misrepresentation.

And then I think people deny Malcolm X visibility based on his misrepresentation.

And I think that's part of the challenge, especially in this moment where they're banning the study of history.

Because then it's only gonna get worse.

- The opportunity to actually know what really happened is less and less these days.

Of course, many people when they think about Malcolm X, I'm sorry, this is the shallowness of the world we live in, they see Denzel Washington.

Right?

That's who they think about.

This is not a new subject.

You have not gone to something that nobody else has written about.

You had to find your lane on this.

So what is your lane on this, Dr.

Kendi?

- Well, first, this book is specifically written for young readers.

- We'll come back to that.

That's right.

But the story you're telling is still effectively the same story, even if it's told differently.

- Yeah, and let me state that because it's for young readers, I wanted to make sure I gave sufficient attention to Malcolm as a young person.

But I also think that we should understand that in this moment, the unfortunate truth is that most American adults are reading at a middle grade level.

And so when you're writing for middle graders, you're writing for adults.

And so I also thought it was important to ensure that Malcolm's complicated life story was clarified.

- Accessible to everybody.

Right?

- Exactly.

- That was really, that's your lane.

Your lane is accessibility.

- It is.

And it's possible.

I mean, I don't consider someone who, let's say they're 45 years old and they read at a fifth grade level to be unintelligent.

I still think they could understand complicated ideas or complicated aspects of a person's life like Malcolm X. And I think we should meet them where they are.

And ensure that they too have access to somebody like a Malcolm X.

- If I do the count on this, I count eight books that you've written out of the 17 that have been for either young readers or just kids.

Right?

So about half of the books you've written are targeting a younger audience.

What is different about that as an author, when you think about an idea to go from idea to execution or when you're actually writing the book stylistically, what's different?

- I think it's both.

So there's the idea itself and thinking about language that one could use that is being used by young people at their developmental level.

And so matching the idea with the language that young people are using, and then obviously the stylistic aspect comes in to make sure it's structured in a way that's engaging, you know, to young people.

Because as my daughter who's nine, she'll pick up a book and put it down if she doesn't like it really quick.

So you have to make sure, you know, you engage young people.

And it's interesting.

And frankly, it's the same as us adults.

We don't like reading boring books either.

- But the subject matter, Dr.

Kendi, the thing that I think is interesting is the subject matter of your books, the through line, race in America, the history of race, the reality of race today.

These are big subjects, these are tough subjects.

And what you're being asked to do, or you're asking yourself to do is to, again, back to accessibility, make them accessible to an audience that may not have the sophistication yet to fully comprehend the breadth and the depth and the significance of it.

- Well, I mean, I was trained to study racism and I've been trained and really employed to teach about racism.

And I think this is a topic that infects us all, certainly is affecting our nation in many different ways right now.

And in many ways, we're not systematically taught about the very topic that's frankly dividing us or leading to many inequities.

And we're also taught that this topic is so difficult to understand.

And I don't think it actually is that difficult to understand.

And I think it's important for us as scholars to take our knowledge and to take the research and take the evidence and take generations of scholarship and make it accessible to everyday people in ways that people can understand.

That's what I see my purpose is.

My job is especially in a moment where those who actually benefit from this, from the sort of persistence of racism, want to muddle the waters, want to confuse us, want to keep us divided based on that confusion.

- Do you have anybody reading these books before they're submitted or before they're published from that generation to be your, you know, "I got you.

I'm your backstop on this.

Let me do a vibe check on your book"?

- So I mentioned my daughter.

(audience laughing) And she is my most challenging... - Your best editor.

Right?

- Yes.

I mean, she, because she's gonna be, I know that she's gonna be honest.

- She's gonna be honest.

She's not gonna let you get away with anything.

Right?

No, of course.

So she told me, "You need to go back in that lab.

- "And redo it."

- Yes.

Which is what I need.

- You know, a couple times you've mentioned directly and indirectly the fact that we're not teaching history, a full history of race in this country in many schools any longer.

We are in a period of time in which we have decided, you know, what books can and can't be in libraries, what coursework can and cannot be in a curriculum of a school, whether it's a K to 12 school or a university.

We've banned something referred to as Critical Race Theory, though, to be candid.

I think different people hear that phrase and either define it differently or can't define it even if they're put in the position of having to vote to ban it.

We're in a time where we're really creating holes that people like you have got to fill in with books like this one.

That's one of the reasons why I imagine when you're thinking about this topic and how you can make it accessible to young readers, it's so important because in the absence of it, many of these conversations simply will not happen.

This history will not be learned.

- And I think that's the tragic truth there.

There was a time not too long ago in this country's history where we were trying to figure out ways to encourage young people and even us adults to read more.

Now, we're trying to figure out ways to ensure we read less.

- And say a little bit more about why you think that is.

What is the motivation for that?

What's behind that?

- Well, you know, as someone who studies racism, I've tried to show in my work that the problem isn't people, the problem isn't those other people who don't look like you.

The problem is policies, the problem is power.

And if we change policies and power, we can create equity and justice for all.

- Right, you understand though, that, but lemme just interrupt you and say that we're told all the time that the problem is people who don't look like us.

- That's what I'm saying.

So if you don't, typically, if in the absence of reading and studying, you can be easily manipulated into believing- - That you don't know better.

- Exactly.

And so that's why if you want people to continue thinking that those other people are the problem, you're also gonna take books out of their hands.

- I wanna ask you about the fundamental point in your bestselling book.

The book you're best known for still, I think, "How to Be an Antiracist".

The distinction between racism and anti-racism, as opposed to the distinction between racism and non-racism, which I think is a critical component of this.

I want to ask you to define those terms, and then I wanna roll that forward to the period of about the last 20 years in this country.

And we'll talk about that.

- Well, I've studied definitions of racist and racism and even not racist.

And what I've found is that typically people who identify as not racist do so after they just did or said something that was racist.

(audience laughing) And that's, frankly, that's been happening really for centuries.

While to be anti-racist by contrast is to actually acknowledge, "You know what?

What I said was actually racist, but I'm going to reflect on that and change it."

And part of that is because I define racist and anti-racist as not fixed identities or categories.

These are like, these are descriptive terms that describe what a person is being in any given moment.

So a person is not fundamentally a racist, someone is being racist or anti-racist based on what they're saying or doing or not.

- You're giving them the benefit of the doubt.

- I'm giving them the benefit of their humanity.

Which means that people are complex.

People can hold an idea of racial hierarchy in one area, an idea of racial equality in another area.

And I think we have to account for that human complexity, and we have to account for the fact that humans can change.

- So, you know, it's interesting.

I get all that and I got all that at the time, but I also, in my own mind thought about something else, which is that there's a version of not being racist that is passive.

And there's a version that's active.

The passivity of not being racist is simply not being racist, but being actively aligned with the idea that we have to combat racism in our communities.

We have to combat racism in ourselves.

To me, that feels like a difference.

Like the people who are actually on the front lines of this and who are attempting to build a more just and equitable world, not simply sitting by and saying, "Well, I've taken care of myself and my own," but are actually on the front lines.

That activity is itself, it feels like a necessary component of anti-racism.

- It's an essential component.

And frankly, I'll explain it in this way.

During the era of slavery and the era of Jim Crow segregation, those who were instituting slavery and segregation wanted other Americans to do nothing.

That's what they wanted.

So the whole purpose of their rhetoric, of their propaganda was to convince Americans that slavery was a positive good.

To convince Americans that the races, you know, in Mississippi or Texas or Florida get along perfectly.

Everything is perfectly equal and separate.

- Don't believe lying eyes.

- And so that then would result, that could result in other people simply doing nothing.

And then what happens if we do nothing in the face of slavery or segregation?

It persists.

And so that's why to do nothing is actually to be complicit in the persistence of racism.

And frankly, those who have produced racism are constantly trying to get the rest of us to do nothing.

So that's why being anti-racist is actually the true opposite of being racist, whether you're sustaining racism through your action or inaction.

- So I think about the period before George Floyd's murder.

- It feels like a long time ago.

- It does.

And I think it's more than five years at this point.

And I think about the period after, immediately after George Floyd's murder, where there were a whole bunch of people, institutions that said, "We have a problem.

We're gonna really marshal our energy in forces and we're gonna get this done."

And then that began to ebb and ebb and ebb.

A lot of promises made, a lot of kind of, you know, bold statements that ended up not having an enormous amount behind them.

Now I feel like we're in a period almost, and I'm going to say this, you slap this down if you don't think this is right, of anti-anti-racism.

Right?

Where we seem now to not only be resetting to what was the case before, there was this flurry of activity in 2020 and 2021, but we seem to be trying to go backwards before that significantly, undoing things in academia, in government, in communities that were put in place to try to address inequities on the ground.

We're now gonna actually end up worse off than we were before.

Is that your read of this too?

- Yes.

And I just want to share very quickly how this came to be.

So after the gruesome murder of George Floyd Americans from really all walks of life, and frankly, people around the world were able to see through those nearly 10 minutes what the problem was.

And that problem was racism.

So that was one of the periods which we came together and could clearly see racism as the problem.

And then in the wake of that, there was a huge effort to reverse or change what the problem was.

So it went from racism is the problem to the people who are fighting against racism are the problem.

And the way in which, you know, even during the summer of 2020 where 93% of the demonstrations were nonviolent, and of the remaining 7%, the majority of those that turned violent was the result of police violence towards demonstrators.

Those demonstrations were termed as rioting and destroying America and taking over cities.

- Looting.

- And looting, again to make it seem as if the problem wasn't what we were demonstrating against, that the problem were the demonstrators themselves.

Just as those all the books that were being written and read that were demonstrating the problem of racism.

No, that wasn't the problem.

It was the authors who somehow were trying to make white children feel bad, when in fact- - Well, our friend Nikole Hannah-Jones, maybe at the top of the list of people who were said to be the problem.

- And I think what was striking is that many of those white children feel bad when they realize they've been lied to, when they've been lied to by what they're not taught about in the way that they're being lied to today.

And so I think that's what happened in terms of anti-anti-racism, which frankly is racism.

- Yeah.

I went into journalism not to do math, and that feels like that.

(audience laughing) I have to say that that feels like a math problem to me that I'm not gonna be able to... Alright, so we're just a minute or two away from being done.

What are you working on next?

You do seem to always be working on multiple things.

- So I'm not able to share.

- Really?

(audience laughing) - I'm on a gag order.

- It's a secret.

- But I will... - Is it a book?

- Having a book coming out next year.

I think what I can share is that, - -hopefully I won't get in trouble-- is I wrote a book called "Stamped from the Beginning".

- You did?

Yes.

- Which was this history of racist ideas.

And that book ends in 2008.

A lot has happened since 2008.

- Speaking of that seems like a long time ago.

- Yes.

- Right.

- And so I wrote a book in many ways that serves as a sequel.

- Okay, but can't say more than that.

- I can't say more.

- But that book is gonna be out again.

- It's gonna be out next year.

- To end, I mean, you're dealing with very complicated and difficult to talk about topics like in some places.

But you love doing this work.

- Well, I love doing this work because I love human beings.

- This is the work of your life.

- It is, and just as, I mean, I'm a cancer survivor and there are many, many oncologists and medical researchers.

It's incredibly hard, right, the work that they do.

- But you gotta do it.

- But they get joy from the successes, even if it's not all the time that they're able to help create.

And so for me to routinely be able to encourage people or provide evidence for people or research for people to actually see that racism is the problem, not other people, is what brings me that joy.

So, 'cause then we can become more cohesive, you know, as human beings.

And frankly, that's gonna be very, very important as we face this Goliath ahead of us.

- Good.

Well, we gotta stop there.

Dr.

Kendi, thank you so much for spending time with us.

Congrats on the book again.

Dr.

Ibram X. Kendi, give him a big hand.

(audience applauding) Thank you so much.

Really good.

We'd love to have you join us in the studio, visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests and an archive of past episodes.

- Malcolm X actually said once that you better negotiate with Martin because if you're not, you're gonna have to negotiate with me.

He was somewhat joking, but then again, he wasn't, right?

So I certainly think that that had an effect on the successes of the Civil Rights Movement.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com, Diane Land and Steve Adler, and Karey and Chris Oddo.

(bright music)