- Coming up on IGI, Vote Yes or Vote No, a timely discussion on the Abortion Amendment Vote for the Kansas Constitution.

Stay with us.

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(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to IGI.

I'm your host, Washburn University Professor of Political Science, Amber Dickinson.

I'm sure all of you have seen the vote yes signs for the Value Them Both campaign or vote no with messages including hands off our rights, stop the ban, and protect your rights.

Very soon, Kansans will be heading to the voting booths to ensure their voice is heard for whatever side of the issue they represent.

But what does it mean to vote yes or vote no?

Here to help guide us through the specifics of this vote are Sherman Smith, Editor-in-Chief of The Kansas Reflector, Michael Smith, Emporia State University Professor of Political Science, and via Zoom, Dr. Alexandra Middlewood, Assistant Political Science Professor for Wichita State University.

Thank you all for joining me on IGI.

So just to get us started, as our viewers can see, there's a graphic on the screen that gives the specific language about vote yes or vote no, but Alex, could you please expand on what those things actually mean?

What does it actually mean to vote yes or to vote no?

- Yeah, So a yes vote for the amendment would allow the state legislature to pass laws regarding abortion, which would render it no longer protected right under the state constitution.

The amendment places no limitations on what laws the state legislature can pass to restrict abortion access.

And it also bans government funding for abortion services.

Whereas a no vote on the amendment maintains the status quo and nothing changes.

So abortion access would be protected under the state constitution via a 2019 Kansas Supreme Court decision, but it is still heavily regulated by the state legislature.

- Fantastic.

Michael, could you expand about what currently is stated in the Kansas Constitution on abortion and perhaps give us a little bit of history that has led us up to this point?

- Well, sure.

Well, as many viewers know, this summer the US Supreme Court overturned the Roe v. Wade decision finding that abortion rights are protected by the US Constitution in the first six months of pregnancy.

A few years prior to that, the Kansas Supreme court ruled in Otis Hennessy v. Schmidt that there was in fact a right to abortion rights in the Kansas Constitution.

And what they found was that there is a concept called Natural Rights.

The belief that there were rights that human beings have naturally.

And the purpose of constitutions is to protect those.

They found that bodily autonomy is such a natural right.

And that the Equal Protection Clause of the Kansas Constitution, which is similar to, but not identical to the Equal Protection Clause in the US Constitution means that abortion rights must be upheld because otherwise there would not be equal protection for biological women and biological men because men can't bear children.

- Very good.

So I'll kick it back to you, Alex, to talk to us a little bit about, let's say that this amendment goes through and becomes part of the Kansas Constitution, what does that mean for people in the state of Kansas?

- So part of what makes this amendment so complex for voters is that we don't necessarily know what this means for the future of abortion services in Kansas.

So the amendment allows for the state legislature to regulate the access to abortion, but we don't know in what ways that they would choose to regulate it.

And so they would have the option really to regulate it in any way that they want because the Kansas Constitution would then say there is no right to abortion like Michael just described.

- Okay.

Sherman, what do you think is likely to happen if this amendment does go through?

- Well, we know the legislature has a very clear track record here of trying to restrict abortion as far as it possibly can.

There's some consideration for the life or the health of the mother, but never really any conversation about rape or incest or any other kind of exceptions.

And we know that the case that put us in this position with the State Supreme court ruling was effectively an attempt to ban most abortions in Kansas, a bandaid the most common procedure used for second trimester abortions in Kansas.

So I think there's little doubt from anybody who follows the legislature that they would not try to ban abortion immediately when they come back in January.

- Okay, good.

So let's say for sake of argument that this amendment does not go through, there are some speculations and concerns that there will be an influx of people coming from other states who have put severe restrictions on abortion coming into Kansas, what are our thoughts on that?

And I'll leave that open to any of you that'd like to chime in.

- I might speak to that being from Missouri.

Missouri public opinion is evenly divided on the issue, but the political climate is extremely anti-abortion and has been for years.

Missouri has some of the strictest anti-abortion laws, they've criminalized abortion.

Well, for years, abortion services in the Kansas City area were generally provided in Overland Park.

So there's nothing new.

What is new though, is that there's now a significant amount of traffic coming from Texas, which is also essentially criminalized abortion.

And Wichita is actually the closest location by car to Texas where abortion is still legal and provided.

- I think if you look at the map of the country of where abortion would remain legal, or it would be effectively banned, there are large tracks of the country throughout the south and into the Midwest that have banned abortion.

I read a story the other day that said that a woman in New Orleans, the closest to access she would have would be Wichita.

So I think it's a little difficult for me to believe that there would be a lot more women who have the opportunity to leave their jobs, leave their families, find the resources to travel to Kansas.

About 90% of the out-of-state abortions do come from Missouri with almost all of the rest coming from Texas and Oklahoma.

So there could be some increase there, but in-state and out-of-state abortions have been about 50-50 for the past 20 years.

- Okay.

So Alex, I'm really anxious to hear your thoughts on this.

How do you think this vote is gonna go for the state of Kansas?

- Yeah, so like any constitutional amendment, it's always a lot harder to get a constitutional amendment to pass than it is to get one to fail.

And so the Value Them Both side of the yes vote essentially, they have a uphill battle when it comes to passing constitutional amendments.

We also have a little bit of clues into how Kansans feel about this issue.

So in 2021, the Kansas Speaks survey which is run by the Docking Institute at Fort Hay State University asks several questions about abortion.

So in that survey, we can see that there is broad support, more than 60% for allowing abortion in cases of rape, incest in a woman's life.

So even if this abortion amendment were to pass, it seems very unlikely that Kansans would support restrictions with no exceptions.

We also know from the survey that 50.5% of respondents agree that the Kansas government should not place any regulations on the circumstances under which women can get an abortions while only 25% of respondents disagreed with that statement.

So it is about half of all Kansans who responded to the survey that say that government should not place any regulations.

And then also the survey asked a question, which gets a little bit more at, I think how most people are feeling walking into the voting booth next month.

And the survey asked what respondents think about women versus elected officials being in a better position to make their own choices about whether to get an abortion.

And 62.5% of Kansans in that survey said that they think that women are in a better position to make that decision than politicians are.

And so really if we look at public opinions and we look at just the fact that passing a constitutional amendment is always an uphill battle regardless of the issue and regardless of the state, it does seem that it is slightly more likely to fail, though, we do know since the overturning of Roe v. Wade, both sides of this issue are mobilized and ready to participate to get their side into law.

And so that throws a little bit of a wrench into our ability to make predictions as political scientists.

- Sure.

I'd like to talk a bit about the timing of this vote.

So this obviously does not take place during the general.

This vote will take place August 2nd, which is during primary for Kansas.

So let's talk a little bit about the timing and if this was intentional to put it at this time, and if so, why?

And I'll start with you, Michael, please.

- It was intentional.

There is some thinking that... Well, okay.

First of all, just a little history.

It didn't used to be the case that abortion was strictly polarizing along party lines.

And my favorite Kansas example is 1995 when anti-abortion, being Self-Described Pro-Life Governor Joan Finney, a Democrat stepped down, and Pro-Choice Governor Republican Bill Graves assumed the office, but that was then.

Today, it's extremely polarized along party lines.

And the thinking is that the Republican primary constituency is better at turning out in low turnout elections in large part because, well, two reasons.

One is that their base, including what's sometimes called the Religious Right, which has strong opinions about this issue.

This is their signature issue actually.

They are very good at mobilizing their voters.

And they're the ones that are doing a lot of these yard signs, bumper stickers you're seeing and so forth.

The second issue is that a lot of times Democrats don't have contested primaries.

You're just ratifying the one candidate, or maybe there's a fringe candidate, but they have no chance.

Whereas Republicans often do have contested primaries.

So there's something to vote for.

So the thinking the Kansas legislature is anti-abortion in the majority is that you'll pull out more anti-abortion voters in August than in November.

One more point, you're also going to pull out pro-choice voters and you're gonna pull those out in November also.

And those could help, for example, re-elect Congresswoman Cherice Davids, or governor Laura Kelly.

So they don't wanna do that.

- Very good.

- The other thing about the primary election in Kansas is you have to be affiliated as a Republican or a Democrat to vote typically.

Independents can still come to vote just for this amendment, but independents typically would have no reason to show up on the primary election.

And so this is, I think an issue.

Even though there is strong public support for abortion rights, there's also in the same Docking Survey that Alexander mentioned, there's overwhelming support for Medicaid expansion or legalized marijuana, and very little support for that in the legislature.

- So could we make the assumption that were this to take place in the general election, that we would actually be giving more of the voting population a chance to weigh in on this issue?

Is that a fair statement to make?

- I think so.

- Absolutely.

- There would certainly be more people who participate in November.

- So let's say for sake of discussion that this amendment does pass.

When we look at, in particular, this concept of exceptions in the case of rape, incest, or life of the mother, if this were something that we don't uphold in Kansas in terms of passing legislation to protect those women in particular, what could the repercussions be?

- We've seen already what's happening in places like Oklahoma and Texas.

Kansas historically has provided an exception for the life or the health of the mother, but not for any other reason.

- Okay.

So my concern then is, if we are going to discuss this in terms of a Value Them Both, meaning that we are attempting to pass legislation or this amendment that will protect women and children.

And I think another conversation that we need to have is, what are we currently doing in this State of Kansas for women and children that are currently living in the State of Kansas?

Or do you think that there are areas that the legislature could be focusing on that would better improve the quality of life of the women and children in the State of Kansas?

- One of the frequent criticisms of those who are supporting this amendment is that they also have frequently opposed providing access for food for low-income families, for Medicaid expansion, which would provide healthcare to low-income families, frequent attacks on the public education system.

So there are a number of things that Kansas could do better at to support families, particularly low-income families who are also disproportionately affected by these abortion restrictions.

- One of the things I wanna point out that's very vexing for me is that the number of abortions performed in the United States and the State of Kansas is already falling.

And it's falling dramatically since the 1970s and 80s.

And some of the steepest drops are in pro-choice states like Illinois.

It appears to be better healthcare, better reproductive healthcare, better access to birth control.

There is a point of view as Dr. Middlewood at pointed out, most Kansans are actually in the middle on this issue.

We don't think of it that way.

We think it's polarizing, but actually that's political activists.

Most regular people are actually centrist.

And I've always been fascinated and just my own opinion personally disappointed that the argument how about making abortion safe, legal, and rare has never caught on?

But there are studies showing that you can cut the number of abortions by about two thirds just in the first few years with comprehensive access to reproductive healthcare and birth control.

But that argument just doesn't seem to catch on.

- So what is the rhetoric that we're seeing on both sides of this discussion?

Because this is a campaign very simply put, right?

What we're seeing is campaign behavior.

You've got two sides on either side of an issue fighting to win, or they've got something at stake that they could lose.

So what is the type of rhetoric that we're seeing from the Value Them Both side of this discussion and groups like Kansas for Constitutional Freedoms?

What kind of language are we seeing outside of these two campaigns?

- I think we're seeing an exaggeration of the other side's point of views.

The Constitutional Freedom people say that passing this will be a total ban, which is perhaps a likely outcome, but it's not gonna happen just because there's still some steps that would fall into place there.

And then we see from the Value Them Both side, a lot of claims about the restrictions that'll go away, which there really isn't any support for.

They say things like, you won't be able to regulate the safety or the cleanliness of a clinic, which just isn't true.

- Let's talk about the regulations that are in place in Kansas currently because there are quite a few, and I know that you all want to chime in on this.

So we'll start here and just make our way around if that's fine.

- Yeah, there are a lot of restrictions along the lines of providing counseling that's designed to discourage an abortion, a 24-hour waiting period requiring the woman or the girl has to look at an ultrasound before she can move forward.

And then there are restrictions like with the telemedicine law.

When they put that into place a few years ago, I think it was 2018, they attached a provision that said you can't use telemedicine to prescribe an abortion.

And there's a clause in that law that would actually take the entire law down if a court ever overrules that, which means the whole telemedicine industry in Kansas could be at jeopardy here if there's a court ruling on that.

- Which is certainly something we've come to rely on, especially moving through the COVID era.

- [Sherman] Sure.

- I'm not seeing anything in the Otis case and the ruling that would strike down things like parental consent laws, for example.

Minors are often treated differently.

Not that they have no rights under the law, they actually do, but they are often treated differently.

So there are a number of state regulations like that that could be upheld.

Now, the argument that the critics, in other words, the ones that want this amendment to pass are making is, what if there are future lawsuits relying on that one as a precedent that strike down laws restricting abortion currently in effect in Kansas?

But that is speculation at this point.

Turning to the US Supreme court, there was a case in 1992 called Planned Parenthood v. Casey which upheld the basic structure of Roe v. Wade, but also upheld nearly every state restriction in the State of Pennsylvania except for one arguing that that did not undermine the fundamental right to choose to have an abortion.

We could see something like that in Kansas if the vote no side prevails.

- Okay.

Thank you, Alex.

- Okay.

Some other restrictions that exist, abortion services in general are just heavily regulated in the State of Kansas.

There are more than 30 pages of regulations on the medical facilities that provide abortion services.

We also know that there is a ban on after 22 weeks with the only exception being for the woman's physical health.

And one of the things that I have found most interesting about the constitutional amendment is one of the things that the yes side mentions a lot is that it bans government funding for abortion services, though, these are effectively already banned in Kansas.

So private insurance companies, insurance purchased through the ACA insurance exchange, insurance plans for public employees and CanCare recipients, which is the state's Medicaid program cannot cover abortion services except for in cases where it is necessary to save the woman's life.

There are special writers that can be added for an additional cost, though, those insurance companies are not required to offer those writers.

So the ban's Taxpayer Funded Abortion part of the amendment is really moot because these restrictions already exist.

- Absolutely.

In particular, I think there's some really common misunderstandings about this idea of taxpayer funded abortions.

I believe since 2013, there have been four that have been funded through taxpayer money, but the total cost for that, and these were all where cases we were gonna lose the mother if these were not, if these abortions did not occur, the cost was around $400 total for all four, which works out to less than a penny for every Kansas taxpayer.

And I think that this is important to point these things out because we do have some members of our legislature saying on record, it's unconscionable that taxpayers should be funding these abortions.

And that is really not painting a very accurate picture of what's going on.

So given that we do know that there is what appears to be a misinterpretation of fact occurring with some of our legislators who don't have, by and large, scientific or medical experience in their background, what is the motivation for passing this type of law?

Or trying to get this type of amendment?

- Well, I've puzzled over that for years.

I've written a number of newspaper columns since I started doing that in 2012, expressing my own personal opinion, which is that, as I said, I think abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

And that a public policy goal of fewer abortions is a good one and there are good ways to pursue that.

And they just don't catch on except for one where a politician was very critical of me for writing it.

And so I can't help, but think, and I know that people who want this amendment to pass are deeply sincere.

They really believe what they say they believe, and I take them at their word.

But there seems to be an exclusive focus on unplanned pregnancies that have already occurred and not where as a social scientist, I'd like to go deeper and say, well, what if we didn't have so many unplanned pregnancies in the first place that there's really what I would call a preoccupation with, oh, I don't care about that.

You rarely hear the anti-abortion side, for example, celebrating the huge drop in the number of abortions in the United States that have occurred in the last two decades.

You'd think they'd be ecstatic about that 'cause that's what they want.

And I have to agree, I think it is good news personally 'cause I'm a moderate on this issue, but there seems to be this very exclusive focus.

We don't care about that.

What we're worried about is, after an unplanned pregnancy occurs, we're not interested in the rest of it.

And I get frustrated 'cause I like to look at the bigger picture.

- [Amber] Sure.

- I think it's important to remember too that there's a very powerful lobbying presence in the State House that makes it virtually impossible to win a Republic in primary unless you hold certain anti-abortion positions notorious for bombarding voters with postcards and really capable of turning out a large voting presence on their behalf.

- So what do we encourage people to do who are trying to find fact-based information about this issue?

Because it's easy for us to immediately knee-jerk reaction go to the websites that are making the most noise, or the side of the discussion that's making the most noise, but how do people find information that might help them make a decision that's more true to what they actually think and feel and believe?

- As a journalist, I always like to encourage people to read news stories about this to find the truth and the facts.

But you can also read the amendment itself and talk to the candidates who are running and get a better understanding for yourself.

- Good.

- That's great information.

The Kansas Reflector actually I think is an excellent source of reliable news.

- [Sherman] Thank you.

- It's one of my favorites now.

But just ask critical questions.

Ask people who are maybe not so much pushing an agenda, or if they are like I am, it's more of a centrist agenda.

Do people watching this show know that most women who seek abortions do it in the first six weeks of pregnancy?

Now, that's not gonna placate folks who have beliefs that that's wrong, but it's just relevant fact.

Do they know that most women who seek abortions already have at least one child?

Do they know that many are in relationships and many of those are married?

Do they know that most are adults?

Not all, not all.

And I don't mean to minimize the others.

- [Amber] Sure.

- But a lot of the facts do go against the mythos that we create around this issue.

- Okay.

Alex.

- And I would just add to avoid absolutes.

So if you're reading information that says, this will absolutely happen, or this side will absolutely happen, then you should be questioning that information because nothing about this amendment comes with absolutes or any guarantees.

And so if something...

If you're reading a source that's talking about this in absolute terms, you should question that and you should go further and search for more information and inform yourself with a wide variety of sources.

- Thank you.

So we have just a few minutes left, but we are seeing stories start to emerge that are quite horrifying.

For example, we've all read the story about this 10-year-old girl in Ohio that is denied abortion access.

Do you think this is a reality that Kansans are just unwilling to accept or think about?

Or is it just beyond comprehension because of how horrific it is in nature?

Or is this a real possibility for Kansas?

- Yeah, these are very difficult conversations I think for people to have about their personal experiences.

But we know just by looking at these statistics from Kansas for last year, there were six girls younger than 14 who had an abortion in Kansas.

So these things are happening, whether we want to acknowledge them or not.

- And in particular, I think a difficult thing for us to imagine is that these are often not always, but often cases of rape and incest.

So familial rape.

And I think that we really need to think about these things when we're considering the information regarding this issue.

Michael.

- And we don't like to talk about it.

We want it out of sight, out of mind.

And that's not gonna work for an issue like this.

One of my big concerns is a social class and age gap.

I don't mean to be flip, but for a middle class woman living in Kansas who has an unplanned pregnancy due to a consensual encounter and chooses to end it, she's going to be making a road trip to Denver or the Illinois suburbs of St. Louis.

That's what's gonna happen.

- Right.

- If she's underage, if she was sexually assaulted, if there was a family member involved, if she's poor, she's not going to have those same opportunities.

We're not gonna see abortions performed on women who are residents of Kansas end, but we're gonna see an entirely different opportunity structure based on social class, age and other factors.

And I'm concerned about that.

- And it's fair to say that some of the problems that we experience in Kansas, poverty rates, the inundation of the foster care system, that's gonna explode those issues certainly.

Alex.

- Yeah, I would just add to that, that it's going to disproportionately affect people who already do not have healthcare access, or have limited or are underinsured for healthcare.

And it's really going to impact black and brown communities, rural women, low-income women, younger women.

And I don't think that we fully thought through even what some of these exceptions means.

- Obviously we could talk about this for hours and hours and hours.

Thank you so much for all of your contributions today.

This is just the beginning of a much deeper conversation that I hope people start to have within themselves and with their families.

That's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at issues@ktwu.org.

If you would like to view this program again or any previous episodes of IGI, visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI, I'm Amber Dickinson.

Thanks for watching.

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