- Coming up on IGI, Kansas school districts are struggling to find enough qualified teachers to meet the needs of students.

We talk to experts about the causes of the shortage and possible solutions.

Stay with us.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This program is brought to you with support from the Lewis H. Humphreys Charitable Trust and from the Friends of KTWU.

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to IGI.

I'm your host, LeTiffany Obozele.

On today's show, we're tackling a critical issue that has been making headlines across the state with school districts struggling to find enough qualified teachers to meet the needs of students.

The shortage of educators in Kansas is not only impacting the quality of education our children receive, but also putting an immense strain on dedicated teachers who are shouldering an ever-increasing workload.

Today, we'll explore the root causes behind this shortage from salaries and challenging working conditions to the impact of the pandemic and changing demographics.

And we'll examine possible solutions, looking to what can be done to recruit and retain qualified educators in the Sunflower State.

Joining us for discussion on this topic today are Dr. Tuan Nguyen, Assistant Professor of Curriculum and Instruction in the College of Education at Kansas State University.

And Sherry Schwanz, a middle school teacher and the current president of the Kansas National Education Association.

Tuan and Sherry, thank you so much for joining us today.

Before we delve into this topic, I wanna give you each a moment to be able to talk about yourself so we can know who we're talking to.

So Sherry, tell us a little bit about yourself.

- Hi, I'm Sherry Schwanz and I'm a fifth generation Kansan from Southeast Kansas is where my parents live now and are currently from.

And I'm a choral music teacher from Lansing, Kansas.

I have two grown children who are both Kansans and my husband who is also in education.

- Very nice.

And Tuan, tell us a little bit about yourself.

- Sure, I'm Tuan Nguyen.

I was a former middle school and high school math teacher for seven years before I came back and did my graduate school at Vanderbilt University.

I'm currently an associate professor at Kansas State University in the College of Education at Kansas State University.

So my research interest is in the teacher labor market and particularly looking at teacher shortages, teacher supply.

- Okay, and so before we got here, I had an opportunity to get to know you guys a little bit better.

And so Tuan, I wanna start with you.

Can you talk to us about an overview of the current teacher shortage situation in Kansas?

Let people know how severe it is and what are some of the key factors contributing to this shortage?

And I know you're gonna give us a broad perspective and then Sherry, I'm gonna turn to you to give us some more Kansas specific facts.

- So in Kansas as of this year, I think we're about 1400 teacher shortage for our state.

So that's including a vacancy.

So posts that aren't being filled and plus under qualifications.

So teachers who don't have standard certifications or who are teaching out of subject, for instance, an English teacher teaching mathematics.

So that's fairly high.

There are other states that have more than 3000 vacant positions like Mississippi, Georgia, Florida.

But when we look at the per capita basis, so this is thinking about the number of students that we have, our vacancy rate in Kansas is actually fairly high, it's in the top quartile.

So we are missing a lot of teacher in our state.

- Kansas educators throughout, as Tuan said that there is a teacher shortage, but there are also other education positions that we are short.

For our students also would be paraprofessionals, our custodians, our administrators, our bus drivers.

There is not just one area.

That used to be the case.

And Tuan, before '09, I believe that it was mostly science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

And now elementary education, we have people who are not certified in elementary education teaching our students to read and write.

- That is correct.

Also thinking about special education teachers, we are in almost every state, we have a special ed teacher shortage.

And the teacher shortage is a complex problem.

It's not any one single thing.

So in Kansas, there are two main sources of it.

One is the supply side.

So this is the number of teachers who are being produced every year.

And we've seen this decline in interest of being teacher in Kansas and nationally over the last 10 years or so.

And then the other side of it is the teacher attrition retention aspect.

So prior to COVID, the national average rate of teachers leaving the profession was around 8%.

And since COVID, that has gone up to 11, 12, 13% in many states.

In Alaska, for instance, it was at 22% last year.

So thinking about like, instead of having 8% of teachers leaving the professions, now we're up to 13, 14, 20%.

It's really hard to replace those teachers who are leaving while at the same time, there are less and less people interested in becoming teachers.

- Oh, wow.

Okay, so I hear you guys saying that there are teachers that are having to fill in for different roles that maybe aren't their regular roles and we're dealing with some attrition that's at a higher rate because of the pandemic.

Talk about some other specific challenges that are being faced when it comes to the quality of education and our student outcomes.

And Sherry, I'll start with you.

- One area that people don't think of is substitute shortage.

We having qualified substitutes to come in when our educators are ill is a huge problem.

And not having someone to come in to take that position is causing multiple layers of problems and not having paraprofessionals.

So you have students with needs and not having that one-on-one direct or indirect with paraprofessionals causes our students not to meet their individual needs.

- And to build on that, the turnover rate for paraprofessionals are like 20, 30, 40%.

Depending on what state you're in.

So that's much higher than what we, in comparison to teachers.

So it's the whole pipeline, the whole education system, bus drivers, paraprofessionals, nurses, right?

Everywhere we look, we see that turnover is a big, big issue.

- Okay, so you're talking about turnover and you talked about how COVID-19 kind of exacerbated that situation.

What other challenges have emerged as a result of the pandemic when it comes to the teacher shortage?

- So I think there are certainly, some things have gotten worse since the pandemic, but this issue of facing teacher shortage has been around for years, decades, right?

We have work showing, the research showing that this declined, has declined interest in the teaching profession over the last 10 years or so.

That it used to be that this is a well-respected job, right?

That pays relatively well.

But over the last 10 years, that interest has dropped.

The prestige of the teaching profession has dropped significantly and the pay has just been very stagnant or even decrease when you account for inflation.

- Absolutely, and one of the things that has happened since the pandemic is the intentional attacks on public education system and our educators who have given their whole profession to building the next great doctors, educators, lawyers, all areas.

We are, by some hyper-political people been deemed as the villain.

And so those attacks on top of a global pandemic, well, where we were giving and giving and going above and beyond to meet the needs of our students has really taken a toll on our educators and the perception.

Our students see the things that people say about educators.

They know the truth.

And they said, well, maybe they're choosing not to get into the education profession because of the rhetoric that's happening.

And I will, as a granddaughter of an educator, I will tell you that there's nothing that I loved more than looking up to my grandmother and going to school with her.

And that taught me the love for teaching.

And so just instilling that in our children is key to bringing back that professionalism from the community about the profession of education.

- I mean, really to that point, we used to have intergenerational families of teachers.

The grandparents, the parents and the kids are all teachers but now we have teachers telling their students and their own kids, don't become teacher.

It's just too hard.

The pay isn't great and you're gonna face so many obstacles.

In many states now, we have legislation telling teachers what can or cannot say, what books they can use.

They may have to learn how to use guns to defend themselves.

This is not what teachers sign up for.

We teachers want the autonomy to do their job, to be professionals, to work with kids, to educate the next generation, not to be forced and pigeonholed into this role.

- And instill the love for learning.

We as educators love to learn and to instill that into our kids and to encourage them.

There is no nobler profession than being a teacher.

Absolutely, I will go to my grave saying there's no nobler profession than education.

- So I hear you guys talking about the highlights of the profession, some of the values and reasons why teachers are doing what they're doing.

And then I hear you talking about something else that matters.

So I wanna turn you guys' attention to talking about teacher salaries.

And so I wanna start talking about teacher salaries in Kansas with you, Sherry, and what role that plays in retaining and attracting teachers in the midst of our teacher shortage and what type of compensation packages and things teachers are looking at right now.

- If viewers don't know, Kansas is a locally controlled state, which means every local district gets to set their contract with their educators.

And they get to negotiate with their educators for the working conditions, which includes salary.

And we at Kansas National Education Association have been working with educators throughout the state to really push that minimum of $40,000 starting salary.

And as we're making progress towards that, other things are hitting our educators.

And so really working towards a livable salary where educators don't have to have second and third jobs.

And that makes a difference for every student in the classroom when their teachers are working nights and then coming and giving everything they have during the day.

But also in terms of salary for Kansas educators, we're 37th in the state.

NEA has a national rankings and estimates.

And an article in the Topeka Capital Journal stated that we were 37th in teacher salaries, but we're in the top 10 for academics for our students.

So giving our students the highest quality educators and that's hand in hand.

- Yes, yes, Dr. Nguyen.

So Sherry's talking about how we are 37th in the nation.

How are salaries in Kansas comparing nationally with others during the teacher shortage and retaining and recruiting?

- So we are, I think that's about right in that the 37th rank.

The nearby states, for instance, Missouri, their minimum salary is 25,000.

And they're working very, very hard to increase that up to 38,000.

But the legislation and the narrative around what it means to be a teacher around the country and in Missouri, for instance, is really against that.

So we're finding an uphill battle, right?

And we know salary and working conditions matter so much for recruiting teachers into the profession in the first place, but also retaining them.

So there's, you know, when we increase salary, we improve working conditions.

Not only are we going to attract more people into the professions, but we're gonna be more likely to retain them.

And when we're talking about increasing salary, we cannot be talking about $1,000, $2,000, you know, on a yearly basis, right?

Because, when you divide that by nine or 12 months, you're not gonna feel that in your pocketbook.

We have to be talking about 5,000, 10,000, establishing a minimum salary of 40,000 or even $50,000 nationally, right?

But we have to be aware that salary matters in this country.

Teaching is a noble profession, but it doesn't mean that they have to work second, third, fourth job, moonlighting, right?

In order to make ends meet.

- And beginning teachers in Kansas, they make over 23% less than their comparable college graduates.

And when someone's going into, out of college, probably with college debt and into the working profession, they're going to look, yes, I have to pay my college debt, but I also have to pay for housing.

And I have to pay for a car.

And so all of those stacked make the decision for a lot of our graduates.

- Okay, so I hear you guys talking about salaries and how much they matter and how important it is for people to be able to negotiate those higher salaries, just so that they can have a better quality of life.

I wanna discuss now, are there any initiatives or programs that are being implemented in Kansas to try to attract new educators?

And I'll start with you, Sherry.

- Absolutely, we are working hand in hand with the Kansas State Department of Education because we as educators need colleagues.

And the best way to retain educators is to have a strong mentorship.

And we are working together to have master teachers mentoring new teachers side by side and strengthening each and every new educator.

We're only as strong as our new educators coming in and to lift one is to lift all.

And for us to retain the educators coming out is key.

- Now to that point, a novice teacher is the one who's most likely to leave in their first two or three years of teaching.

So if we can have mentors who can help them and work with them side by side, that's gonna help them to retain, but also to improve their pedagogy, the teaching abilities, right?

But at the end of the day, when we're talking about dealing with the teacher shortage, we are going to need to think about how to recruit more people into profession and to how retain them.

And a lot of that is going to depend on whether or not we can change the narrative of what it means to be a teacher in this country.

So salary is gonna play a part of that.

Teacher working conditions can play a part of that, but also how parents interact with teachers, right?

We absolutely need to change the narrative of what it means to be a teacher in this country.

Otherwise it's really hard to see how we're gonna turn this ship around.

- Absolutely.

Parents, community, and schools, hand in hand.

As a music teacher, my students gave back to the community all the time, inviting community members in, inviting parents.

We can't do it by ourselves.

It has to be jointly hand in hand, which it has been in my 30 years of teaching in Kansas.

I would go to the grocery store, teach, parents would stop, students might stop.

So that builds conversation and it builds community.

And being a lifelong Kansan, there is nothing more important to a community than its public schools.

- So I hear you guys saying that it takes a community.

It reminds me of the saying, it takes a village to raise a child, right?

And so we've talked about salary.

We've talked about how this is a noble profession.

And I'm curious, when we look beyond salary, what are other factors that are going to contribute to a positive work environment for teachers?

What are those policymakers that people are entering into partnerships with?

What are things that they need to consider?

What can districts consider?

What are ways parents can be involved into the school?

What are ways the village can help, the teachers help the children?

- So you can think about grants and scholarships to attract teachers into the profession.

Think about loans forgiveness.

You can think about signing bonus, retention bonus, some that are specifically geared towards certain subject area.

For example, being a math teacher, being a science teacher or special ed teachers, right?

So those targeted policy decisions to really attract certain kinds of teachers, I think that's important.

And then when we think about what can the community do?

What can parents do?

What can principals do, for instance?

There are many things you can do.

Highlight the positive things that teachers are doing for your students, for the community.

There's a lot of research showing that how things are organized at the school, the working conditions of teachers, and how principals interact with teachers matter, right?

In some ways, improving that is much more effective and cheaper than just to increase salary.

So you can think about a principal being more encouraging to teachers, recognizing the work that they do inside and outside of the classroom, right?

At the end of the day, teachers are people too, right?

We have lives outside of teaching, right?

So some of us are artists, some of us are, we have different hobbies.

Highlight the things that we're doing for the community, So being able to build that network, that sense of belonging, that we are doing something together.

I think that helps a lot.

- And that counters the hyper-partisan things happening in our legislature when educators are villainized and people are trying to pass laws that affect our educators and our students, the community, then, well, no.

Ms. Schwanz, I just went to an event.

She directed the play.

She was at this church event.

And so we, as a community, working together and building successful students, that's why we're in the profession.

- It's true, it's true.

Are there, you mentioned earlier, working with the Department of Education and collaborating.

Are there any other efforts being made to collaborate, to enhance the teacher experience, the education experience?

- Yes, we are working on thinking outside of the box to recruit educators into the profession.

They have pathways in high schools.

And one of those pathways is Ed Rising.

And that's where a professional educator has a class and or a club that students get together and they practice being teachers and go into classrooms and shadow educators and even have competitions.

We have over 35 students from Kansas going to the National Ed Rising Conference.

I'm so excited.

And they are honing their skills and getting to be around students from all over the state who, I wanna be an educator.

I wanna be a teacher.

I wanna, and so getting that excitement at the middle school and high school.

And then when they go into college, we at KNEA have aspiring educator chapters where students rely on students and get to know people.

As a music teacher, I didn't get out of the music department.

But through our Ed Rising chapters, we're getting into to know the math teachers, to know the elementary ed.

And so building that community is key.

- Okay, what are you seeing nationally and here in Kansas from your research?

- So sort of actually a very similar picture of what sometimes are called grow your own programs, right?

Where you are trying to grow this sort of in your community where you are getting the middle school, high school students interested in teaching.

You're providing apprenticeship programs.

You have residencies so that teacher candidates can work in the school where they are, be the instructor of record and gain their certification at the same time.

So we're seeing that being done in many, many states, right?

The challenge that we're facing still is we're not quite sure yet how successful these will be.

And we won't know for another two, three, four or five years, right?

And that can sometimes take a long time to see how things will play out.

But I'm really, really hopeful that a lot of these efforts will help us turn things around.

- And if we don't think outside the box, think of the alternative.

We are willing and able as educators to partner with higher ed, to partner with the Department of Education to look for those solutions and work together.

- Okay, for our viewers out there who are interested in getting more information and learning how they can be helpful, do you have any resources that they can consider as we figure out what's gonna happen in the future, long-term solutions?

I'll start with you, Sherry, and then you, Dr. Nguyen.

- Yes, knea.org is a great resource, as well as we look to diversify our teaching field.

We also have a student expression campaign, which is justimaginejustice.org.

We'd love for the community to become more involved and partner with us.

Reach out anytime.

- And if you're interested in teacher shortages, I do have a website called teachershortages.com.

That's fairly easy to remember where we have collected all the information set publicly available about teacher shortages across the United States, and then breaking that down into vacancies and underqualification.

So we have data from last year, and then my team and I are working on updating that data for this year, where we're actually gonna provide more information, so not only about the vacancy and underqualification, but also the teacher supply.

How many teachers are being produced in your state?

And then teacher turnover.

How many teachers are leaving the profession in your state?

The number of students you have, the number of teachers you have.

So then just, but with one click, you can see sort of the overall picture of what's going on in your state.

So that's, we're gonna be updating that, hopefully in around August or September, just in time for the new school year to begin.

- Tuan and Sherry thank you so much for being on IGI today.

I appreciate your expertise and your insightful knowledge.

That's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics, please send us an email at issues at ktwu.org.

If you would like to view this program again or any previous episodes of IGI, visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI, I'm LeTiffany Obozele, and thank you for watching.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] This program is brought to you with support from the Lewis H. Humphreys Charitable Trust and from the Friends of KTWU.