- Coming up on IGI, we talk with Kansas Legal Services, a nonprofit law firm and community education organization, which helps low and moderate income people in Kansas with their legal issues.

Stay with us.

(logo sizzles and dings) (bright music) Hello and welcome to IGI.

I'm your host, LeTiffany Obozele.

In today's world, access to legal services is a necessity.

Yet for many low income individuals, it remains elusive.

Navigating complex legal challenges can be overwhelming without proper legal representation.

Organizations like Kansas Legal Services bridge this gap, providing essential legal aid to those who cannot afford it.

On today's show, we'll discuss the crucial services that non-profit legal aid programs provide for those in need, the types of services available, who qualifies for services, and how to obtain assistance.

Joining us for discussion on this topic today is Matt Keenan, Executive Director of Kansas Legal Services.

Thanks for joining us today On IGI, Matt.

I wanna start talking about Kansas Legal Services and equal justice under the law.

Tell us a little bit about that.

- Well, equal justice under law is one of the most important principles our country was founded upon.

If you look at the top of the Supreme Court building, there are those four words: equal justice under law.

And what most people may not appreciate is if you are charged with a serious criminal matter, you have a right to an attorney.

But for almost every kind of legal matter that isn't a serious criminal matter, you don't have a right to an attorney.

And what the legal aid organizations were formed to address is to address those occasions where there isn't an automatic right to an attorney.

We are there to help them.

What's interesting about this whole organization of legal aid was it was founded in 1974, and the president who signed that was Richard Nixon.

So we celebrated our 50th anniversary this year.

It's a concept that's been embedded into the culture and the fabric of the United States for a very long time.

And we are the legal aid organization in Kansas.

- That's awesome.

Tell us a little bit about Kansas Legal Services and the types of services, topics that they help with, and how many offices you guys have.

- So we are the fourth largest law firm in the state, and we're the only nonprofit law firm.

We have 11 offices in every corner of the state.

We have 145 dedicated employees.

And of that number, we have 43 attorneys.

So we have offices obviously in Hays.

We have an office in Dodge, Hutchinson, Pittsburgh, Emporia, Seneca, Manhattan, Kansas City, Kansas, Topeka.

We are unusual in that we have clients in every county in the state, and I'm pretty confident no other law firm can make that statement.

- Well, that is very cool.

One of the things I recently learned about was there's a attorney crisis, and particularly in rural Kansas, there's an attorney crisis.

Tell us a little bit about how that impacts your ability to make sure that people have equal justice under the law for these.

- It's interesting in that we have a growing attorney shortage in the state.

There are a number of counties, particularly west of Topeka, where you have a shrinking number of lawyers.

And those who are still practicing don't have the bandwidth or in some cases, the aptitude to represent clients who can't pay them.

There are...

I have some statistics that there in the urban areas, there's two attorneys for 535 residents.

But when you go in western Kansas, there's one attorney for 808 residents.

You have two counties with no attorneys, and you have 10 counties with five or fewer.

And most of those attorneys in those counties are near retirement age.

So if you have a legal need in those counties, you're gonna have difficulty finding an attorney to help you.

We are trying to fill that void, but it becomes increasingly difficult when we ourselves are having difficulty hiring people to go to those rural areas.

- Well, what are some of the most common legal issues that you're seeing for low and moderate income individuals and families that they're facing here in Kansas?

- The biggest challenge from my perspective is the inability for tenants to have representation during eviction proceedings.

I have a statistic for you that may surprise you.

Last year in Wichita Sedgwick County, there were 5,873 evictions in just that county alone.

- Oh, wow.

- Also consider that of those 5,873 evictions, about 90% of those tenants did not have an attorney.

So you talk about equal justice under law, and you accept the reality that about 90% of the tenants don't have an attorney, and all of the landlords, or most of the landlords have an attorney.

That is not equal justice.

And what KLS, Kansas Legal Services, is doing is we are trying to be there for the tenants to create a level playing field to create a sense of fairness for the tenants.

And what we have found is, and this may surprise the viewers too, the landlords want Kansas Legal Services there.

They want us representing the tenants because they can have conversations with us and they can get a resolution with a KLS attorney that they may not be able to get with a tenant who doesn't have representation.

Because we can express to our clients in terms that they will trust and accept that they may not believe coming from the landlord or the landlord's attorney.

So in many, many cases where we get involved, the judges welcome us.

The attorney on the other side welcomes us.

The community partners welcome us.

We are a very welcome partner to so many of these legal issues because of the expertise we bring to the relationships that we have with the judges, the prosecutors, the district attorney.

We do a lot of expungement work.

And expungement is where we give Kansans an opportunity to clear their past.

We give them a second chance to wipe away mistakes they made when they were 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.

Our involvement in those expungement proceedings is extremely beneficial to the clients because we'll oftentimes know the judge, we'll oftentimes know the prosecuting attorney, and they have to approve these expungements.

The relationships that our attorneys have are extremely important to help our clients get the justice they deserve.

- That's awesome.

So we talked about expungement clinics and we talked about landlord tenant, I know a thing going on in Kansas right now and that's ever evolving is driver license laws and driving while suspended.

And sometimes that might be a thing that happens and you don't have money to pay those fees or go to work.

Tell us the work that KLS is doing with driver's license clinics.

- So it's really interesting that about 250,000 Kansans have suspended driver's licenses right now.

We get those statistic from the Department of Revenue in the state, the reason why they've had suspended driver's license is not typically because they had an accident.

They have a suspended driver's license because they missed a court hearing or they didn't pay a fine or a fee that was outstanding.

And what happens is these fines and fees accumulate and they generate interest.

And this is a true bipartisan issue where both sides of the legislative deliberative process saw the value in increasing the workforce in Kansas.

So we have a special grant that was given to us by our founding organization where we have clinics throughout the Topeka area where we have helped local Kansans get their driver's license restored.

And what's unusual and very helpful is that the legislature allowed judges in the appropriate case with an appropriate showing to wipe away, if you will, the outstanding fines and fees that might be holding someone back.

So the driver's license restoration is very similar to an expungement in that we're giving people an opportunity to get out of the legal entanglements that they found themselves in.

And really, it does take a lawyer that has the expertise, that has the credibility to make these arguments, that has the relationships and help them clear their past and get them back on the road driving legally.

- All right, so one of the things that I keep hearing is the issues you're dealing with are bipartisan, so not one party or the other.

And I hear you talking about being able to work with other people.

So what kinds of collaborations do you have going on to be able to do the work that you do?

- Well, one of the things we're real proud of is we have a $200,000 grant from the legislature to do expungement clinics.

And we'll do one clinic a month.

So in a couple days, we're gonna be in Hays.

That grant was the product of both Republicans and Democrats in Topeka coming together and seeing the value in what we are doing and supporting that funding of $200,000.

And the governor signed that bill.

But even if you step away from the state and you go to Congress, we get about $4 million from Congress.

And we're very proud to say that both Senators Marshall and Senators Moran support what we do and support funding us.

And because helping the working poor really isn't a partisan issue, particularly when you're talking about helping them get back in the workforce, and when you're talking about these smaller communities where they're desperate for good employees who can drive and have the other tools that they need, Kansas Legal Services help them clear the way.

When you talk about partners, we need independent partners like Catholic charities, like the United Way.

There's a number of other charities in these smaller towns.

The domestic violence shelter, for example, we have the lawyers.

We have the attorneys that they typically don't have on their staff.

So we come in and we help them.

If somebody's at risk of an eviction, we go in and enter our appearance in court and help the tenant.

We depend on them to send us clients, and in some cases we send them clients.

If somebody is past due on a rent payment, that's the kind of thing that Catholic charities might be able to help with or United Eight Way Agency might be able to help with.

And so there's a give and take, a very collaborative arrangement.

It's very important.

So whether you go, whether you're talking about Garden City, Dodge, Manhattan, Salina, Topeka, we have that network that has been formed over 40 years.

And it's been mutually beneficial to everybody involved.

- That is so awesome.

I hear about these collaborations and I hear about the landlord, tenant, the expungement, the driver's license clinic.

Please share with us a story about one time, I'm sure you've got many, where you've really had Kansas Legal Services be able to impact someone's life.

- So we had a clinic in Great Bend, my hometown, this was a year ago.

We had about 30 people come.

Catholic charities helped set up a venue for us.

We used like a community center there.

And we had a gentleman come there who rode his bike.

He didn't have a driver's license.

He had a $500 outstanding fine from when he was driving when he was 15 and he didn't have a license.

This was a fine he couldn't pay.

He didn't have a safety net.

He didn't have his parents that were able to step in and help him navigate that.

But we did.

And I represented him.

We went to court.

It was municipal court in Grape End.

The prosecutor I knew, the judge I had a relationship with, and with just a few arguments they said, and they had the discretion to do it, they wiped away the $500 and he was able to get his driver's license back.

And the day he sent me a text message of his paper driver's license, he brought me tremendous joy.

And he's a very hardworking gentleman.

He works for a major fence company in Great Bend, and it was transformative for him.

Those kinds of examples are extremely common.

And the beauty of these clinics is we go to where the clients are.

- Yeah.

- So we go to the towns, they love having us there.

We're there to do what their local legal community can't do or doesn't want to do or doesn't have the expertise to do.

So we go to a different town every month.

- Okay, that's awesome.

So we're talking about success stories and changes that you've been able to make, but with every success there comes challenges, right?

We talked about one of them being their attorney role shortage.

What are some other challenges that a legal aid society like Kansas Legal Services faces?

- I mean, there are numerous.

We're trying to get salary equity.

We don't pay our attorneys what they should be paid.

And I'm working very hard on that.

An opportunity like this is for us to spread the word and to get other to know what we do and understand we need support.

Another problem we have is, we are such a great training opportunity for young attorneys.

They come in.

They have multiple trials, their first six months, They really get their feet wet.

They develop relationships, and then they become a very valuable commodity and they're hired away.

Now, that's not necessarily negative because I know that the legal profession is one in which people are always looking for better opportunities.

But I'm trying to change that culture and have people stay and understand they'll be rewarded.

They come here for their heart and their passion, but at some point they realize that the pocketbook matters too.

I would say another challenge we have getting people to go to the rural communities.

We have some, we're trying to hire in Pittsburgh, we're trying to hire in Dodge City.

We're trying to hire in Hays.

Hutchinson is another area we're trying to hire.

And you know, we've had some success.

There's no question we've had success.

I think this, the demographic of the younger law student is someone who is very passionate about what we do, and they want to support us in some way, shape, or form.

So we've had good luck with that.

So I think it's no different than any other law firm and no different than any other nonprofit, but for us, we have the challenge of both a law firm and a nonprofit together.

- Okay.

Well, I know one of the things you talked about early on was that you were really proud to have those 11 offices that spanned all of the counties of Kansas.

But something we didn't get to talk about is you have mediation services.

So tell the viewers a little bit about those mediation services you have and how many offices and how that works and helps you.

- We were really proud of our mediation service, which goes back, it's part of our deep culture at Kansas Legal Services.

And we have a mediation office in Wichita, and we have one in Topeka.

Courts are always looking for opportunities to get a resolution of a matter without a lot of time and expense.

And so that has been an adjunct to our legal side.

And we have a couple people that mediate pretty much all day every day.

We can do it at little or no cost to the participants, and we have a referral network with the state.

So it's been something honestly we would like to grow and expand because like we've talked about, the shortage of lawyers, judges are looking for ways of getting resolutions that you can achieve without an attorney.

And a lot of the mediations we do don't have an attorney involved at all.

So it's working, but it's something definitely we see an opportunity for growth.

- Okay.

So we've talked about when Kansas Legal Services was founded, we've talked about how welcome you are in the communities you come because you bring good quality legal representation and relationships.

How has that demand changed over the years from when you started with the three offices and went to the 11 and have these mediation services?

How has that demand changed?

- It's been rewarding that as more people know and understand what we do, they support us.

The difficulty has been that the client demands have grown exponentially.

Last year, we represented or advised or counseled 21,000 Kansans.

- Oh, wow.

- Yes.

And there are so many more that we had to turn away.

Let me give you an example.

We don't have the bandwidth to do a conventional divorce of somebody who cannot afford an attorney.

We will only get involved in a domestic case if there's domestic violence.

If there's domestic violence and Kansas unfortunately has a domestic violence problem like so many states, we will get involved in the case involving the victim of domestic violence.

And so often in a case like that, there's children involved, there's housing needs.

There's a statistic that was said, expressed that for every one domestic violence victim, there's 12 separate legal issues that need to be addressed by a lawyer.

And we address those.

So an area of domestic violence is one of our areas of specialty.

And we handle those cases all around the state.

But if you have a conventional divorce without a domestic violence component, we probably are not gonna be able to get involved because we don't have the time and the manpower.

I should add one other thing while I'm on this topic, and that is a big thing of us is legal advocacy for natural disasters.

Yes, there was a tornado in Westmoreland, Kansas, I think it's a little bit north of here.

And we've been up there and we've been interfacing with the residents that have been impacted because as you might imagine, if your home has been hit by a tornado, there's a multitude of legal questions and challenges that you're going to be faced.

And that's one of the things that we're there to help too.

- Okay.

I know that you were talking about you don't have the bandwidth to be able to help.

One of the things I noticed about your website is that you also seem to provide access to forms and resources for people.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

- Well, because so many Kansans have to go on their own, we've been at the forefront of simplifying the forms that non-attorneys can review and understand so that they can navigate these challenges by themselves.

There's a very straightforward form for a non-contentious divorce, for example.

And we have attorneys who are on, there's a state committee that is charged with the responsibility of simplifying the form.

So... - Yeah.

- Pro se as they're called.

Pro se litigants can solve these problems themselves and they've had pretty good success.

With artificial intelligence, the hope is that five years from now, the ability for a couple that wants a divorce without any disagreements should be able to navigate that entirely by themselves.

- Okay, well that is awesome.

Well, you've talked about things that you're doing now.

Do you have any future initiatives or plans for KLS as you grow and you expand and you hopefully get some of those attorneys to address some of those issues?

- I mean, there's the continuing to spread the word and explain what we do.

Our messaging in the past hasn't been all that clear and concise.

So many people, even lawyers who I know, think Kansas Legal Services represents people who are charged with crimes.

So we need to do a better job of explaining where we are and what we do.

And we are really the social safety net for the communities all over the state who need an organization to pick those up that have fallen or have stumbled.

And that's why no matter where you go and no matter what county, they're welcoming us with open arms because we, you know, we're proof that being poor isn't cheap, it's expensive.

- Yeah.

- And we're there to help.

So, you know, the challenge for us is to broaden our message and broaden our support.

So, and I'm working very hard to do that.

- So if there's somebody in the community that's watching right now, what is something that they can do to support the work of Kansas Legal Services?

- I would say find out more about what we do.

We've had three articles in the Wall Street Journal in the last nine months, highlighting our advocacy in a very positive way.

This program is a wonderful opportunity for us to broaden our message.

Go to our website.

We're a 501c3.

We're not only that, but we're a highly rated 501c3 according to conventional metrics.

There's a lot of pro... lot of charitable websites that evaluate nonprofits and we do very well in terms of being a steward for people's donations.

- Okay, that is awesome.

You said you wanted a chance to be able to get that messaging out there, and I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about who you are, who you're not, and the partisan nature or the non-partisan nature of the work that's done for Kansas Legal Services.

- I mean, we are basically a safety net for those that need one.

And we level the playing field for those who are desperately looking for someone to fight for them.

I mean, in the world of housing, unfortunately, there are a lot of bullies.

There are bullies in the world of domestic violence.

And we're there for the men and women who need somebody to go to court with them and not charge them anything.

And we spend our money very wisely.

The offices we have in these small towns, we essentially get free rent and we've got partners all over the place.

So it's nice to be welcome and to be encouraged.

But the challenge is to understand that we can't work for free.

And when judges have told me, "We really need you to come to court and help clients that don't have an attorney," I say to them, "We want to be there too, but help us help you."

Help us develop partnerships with perhaps your county commission, your United Way, your domestic violence shelter, so that we can get some of the funding that others are getting because we bring the lawyers that other people don't have.

This is a wonderful forum, and I've been a big fan of public television in Kansas City, but learn, understand what we do and if appropriate, support us.

- Okay, and I wanna give you a chance, because you've talked about an attorney shortage and we talked about how to get the community involved, but right now, I think folks are taking the bar exam.

So there's a lot of new attorneys that are gonna be looking for employment.

And so if there's an attorney watching this and they were on the fence about, I think I wanna do public legal aid work, what would you have to say to them about getting involved in taking an opportunity with Kansas Legal Services?

- Well, it's interesting 'cause they asked me to speak to the swearing in ceremony of the new Kansas attorneys.

And I brought with me a book about happiness.

And the number one reason why people have joy in their life is helping people who need help.

It's extending and helping hand to someone who's struggling.

It gives you perspective.

It gives you context, okay?

Every day, the lawyers and the paralegals of Kansas legal services have joy in their life because that's what they do.

They give a hand to somebody who's struggling and needs to be pulled back on their feet.

So you never, you do have difficult days, but it's fighting for somebody who has no voice.

And so I held that book up and I said, because there's been studies that a lot of lawyers are miserable.

They, you know, there's a lot of discontent in the profession, someone who's a lawyer yourself may know.

The attorneys at Kansas Legal Services, they know that every day they're doing everything they can to make someone's life better, to keep a roof over someone's head, to put food on the table, to give them the rights and privileges that they deserve from being a citizen.

And they make communities better and they make neighborhoods better.

I have one quick anecdote when I go and speak to these local towns, like I spoke at the Wichita Bar Association, I had a map, a colored map of all of our clients around Sedgwick County.

And I put it up and I said, "This is where our clients live."

- Yeah.

- And everybody froze and they looked at that and they knew I was talking about helping someone who lived very close to them.

And that's ultimately what we're about, it's helping the friends and neighbors who you don't know are struggling until they call our our number and we're there to help.

- Thank you so much, Matt, for talking with me today.

Thank you for joining us on this discussion.

That's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at issues@ktwu.org.

If you would like to view this program again, or any previous episodes of IGI, visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI, I'm LeTiffany Obozele and thank you for watching.

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