Kansas politics has changed a lot in the last 50 years.

Or has it?

We're going to do our best to figure that out.

Coming up on IGI, a discussion about the Arc of Kansas Politics.

Stay with us.

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♪ Welcome to IGI.

I'm your host, Bob Beatty.

Kansas politics has witnessed a shift in Republican and Democratic leadership for decades, primarily in the governor's office.

Many have studied Kansas politics with a unique curiosity.

Why a red state has historically represented moderate viewpoints and even bipartisanship.

What makes Kansas politics tick?

Well, who better to answer that than the editors and writers of the book Reform and reaction: the Arc of Kansas Politics.

Joining me here are Michael Smith and Ed Flentje, both of those editors and authors of this book, as well as Tim Carpenter, senior reporter for The Kansas Reflector, who has also been around the Kansas politics block a time or two.

Michael and Tim and Ed, thank you so much for joining us here.

I'm really looking forward to this discussion.

And I'll hold it up again throughout the program.

This is the book - Reform and Reaction, and it's a fantastic book.

And also it's unique.

We don't see a lot of books on on Kansas politics.

So, it's it's wonderful that not only is it a book on Kansas politics, but it's a darn good one, as well.

And this covers, you know, so much.

I just wanted to start by asking Ed and Michael, what prompted you to, to write this?

What is it about Kansas politics that you're looking at it and say, you know, we we need to to get this down.

Who wants to start?

Well, I'll jump in here.

This book, took over ten years to get into print.

It was the brainchild of our good friend, the late Burdett Loomis, a professor at KU.

And, we're in a group.

Ed Bird was.

And several others.

Me.

In which we write newspaper columns together, as you know.

And, in the early 20 tens, Bird called us all to KU one Saturday morning, and we sat down and he pointed out that the last time a book about Kansas politics had been published was had been revised, was in the early 2000.

Now, I should point out, since that time that Ed has another coauthored book that came out, The Flentje which is also a very good book, but with a different scope.

But for what we're doing in this book, which is Kansas politics from 1960 to 2018, there was nothing that there were no other books tackling essentially modern Kansas politics and how it's developed.

So we decided to write it.

And one thing led to another.

And then a few years ago, our friend Bird passed away unexpectedly, and it was just a few weeks after that.

I don't remember if you called me or if I called you, but we both said pretty much together, we need to finish this book and we need to dedicate it to Bird.

And that's exactly what we did.

Along with our coauthors Chapman Rackaway and Patrick Miller.

Yeah.

You know, I, I came to Kansas, a number of years ago from Oregon, you know, for the job.

And I knew nothing about Kansas.

And, I came here and then was have been for 25 years, constantly surprised at how fascinating and interesting the politics is and also the personalities, know, in the book.

We meet a lot of, governors, and that's a great centerpiece because, you know, the governor is is influential in this state.

I think we can talk maybe later about how the legislature's not so happy about that.

And trying to do things about it.

But let's start with, governor Bob Bennett.

And before I ask you to talk about what he did as governor, let's, introduce Bob Bennett, to the viewers.

If they don't know who he is, we believe Bob Bennett and Shelby Smith is the better team for Kansas.

Now, we'd like you to meet the Bennett's and Smith's.

Libby and I and Shelby and Betty have really enjoyed this campaign.

We've enjoyed the opportunity of meeting many of you and have talking to you both on the radio and the TV and in person.

We hope that when you go to the polls on November the 5th, you'll be thinking of the Bennett Smith team and you'll be thinking about experience in Kansas government.

We can get one of those for for IGI, who wants to jump in because Bennett is featured in the book?

Well, I'll speak to, Bob Bennett, who was a legislative leader, president of the Senate before he became governor.

And, he was a unique, character, kind of an urbane, Johnson County attorney and quite articulate and almost intellectual in the way he approached issues.

He, he outworked, for the most part, his opposition.

And, he really left his fingerprints on campaign finance reform on transferring the old highway commission, a politicized highway commission, into a modern Department of Transportation, and was the first governor to operate in the revised governorship of the 60s and 70s.

He was elected in 74 and, then became the first governor with a four year term, a lieutenant governor of his choosing and, a strengthened governorship.

And greatly, left his mark on public policy in fundamental ways.

And, should be appropriately remembered in the history of Kansas politics.

Bob, I did want to say not to interrupt, but I think that ad is is is a golden oldie, and it kind of harkens back to a different era of politics.

It shows you how much politics has changed.

If you look at modern ads today and as a reporter who's sat there and kind of covered the blow by blow day to day activity of the state House, a book like this is really helpful because it's stepped back and and kind of does look at the arc of, of policy shifts and personalities and things like that.

So I think it's really important and it's quite a bit different than the day to day, activities that you might cover in the state House and puts it in perspective.

Another thing, Tim, and Ed documented this really well in his chapters in the book.

That area was bipartisan.

These reforms, like changing the terms of the governor from 2 to 4 years, campaign finance reform, major reform, and highway policy.

These were bipartisan.

There were issues where partisanship would crop up from time to time, but it was a completely different time and a completely different political climate.

So Bob Bennett actually only serves one term.

I mean, yeah, Michael, bipartisan.

But that doesn't mean that the Democrats, Republicans don't want to get elected.

And, John Carlin ends up defeating Bob Bennett.

Let's introduce you to Governor John Carlin here.

John Carlin, every month in the mail, you get a reminder of why Kansas needs a new governor.

I'm talking about your utility bill.

Electric company profits have increased 100% during Bennett's term.

Meanwhile, his corporation commission is allowed even higher rates.

The companies are naturally going to get all they can.

You and I are going to pay it because we have no choice.

Since the governor doesn't care, higher electric rates will keep right on coming.

So John Carlin ends up Democratic governor, ends up serving two terms.

What?

What do we learn about John Carlin and his influence on the arc of Kansas politics in your book?

Well, Carlin, although obviously he found a wedge issue, first of all, he wasn't all that successful in doing anything about utility rates.

There's so many different factors that go into that.

His, good way to get elected is it worked to get elected.

That didn't end up being a signature thing he did as governor, although as you mentioned, Bob, he did get reelected.

But the crazy thing is, he really ruled in that moderate tradition.

If you were to place him on the left right spectrum, I don't know that I would say that Carlin was really he was a Democrat, was really to the left of Bennett.

They were just sort of this, this reform era, good government kind of politician.

Be curious what Ed thinks, though.

Well, I think John Carlin would admit this.

That little got accomplished in his first term, and then he made a vow to Senate leadership that he would not run against Bob Dole.

And once that commitment was made, Carlin led the way for some major fundamental public policy relating to property tax reform and economic development and, again, put in place policy that has been around for decades since Republicans, in many cases, voted with him or went with him on this.

Very much of a bipartisan, coalition is what put together.

He actually, for the one of the first time connected Kansas City and Wichita interests in things like liquor by the drink and banking reform.

And then got a number of constitutional amendments, the lottery and so forth to, stimulate economic growth.

Let's let's move on, because I think we're going to spend some more time if you on Governor Brownback, of course, and some interesting things there with a really interesting governor.

Mike Hayden.

So let's introduce everyone to governor Mike Hayden.

At an early age, Mike Hayden developed a profound respect for nature.

Mike's concern for the environment led him to politics when he fought to preserve our wetlands.

Mike also supported Hunter's safety courses for first time hunters, and has been named Conservation Legislator of the year twice.

As governor, I'll continue to fight to protect and preserve our natural resources.

Mike Hayden, Republican for governor.

He's earned it.

I mentioned I came from Oregon to Kansas, and, the governor, when I was a kid was named Tom McCall, and he was a huge environmentalist, and he was a Republican.

So to me, you know, Mike Hayden being an environmentalist, that that's fine.

But, you it's it was always strange when later I heard Republicans, you know, making fun of environmentalists.

I never got that because I grew up with that.

And I knew Mike Hayden.

So he was a different kind of Republican, especially than we see now.

Right.

But I think in the era, he was considered a real Republican.

Oh, yeah.

The problem is, if you want to if you want to take Mike Hayden and plunk him down and a campaign for governor right now, he'd be considered a raging liberal sort like the Bob Dole issue.

There would actually be some that would make fun of him for being an environmentalist now, which and other things.

But yeah, he served as secretary of, of that department and Sebelius.

Yeah.

Administration.

So he only served one term, but he actually got some things done.

But it ended up hurting him in reelection.

Right.

Well Mike... talks very articulate, way about natural resources and made impacts as a legislative leader as well as governor in that area.

But his I think his main contribution was infrastructure.

And particularly the highway program.

Yeah.

Which used debt in a very creative way and has been replicated by governor since.

And, to make Kansas highways some of the best in the nation.

But he loses reelection because of property, probably because of property tax reappraisal, which was needed to be done.

But, which was enacted during John Carlin's time but got him killed in the he really especially in the primary he won the primary but just got him killed on a tax and and then he loses the general election.

So, you know again sometimes you do the right thing and it can cost you politically.

Bennett Hayden and also the Kansas legislators who after the Supreme Court, one person, one vote court rulings drew away their own districts in the statehouse, in a very different kind of mid-decade redistrict than we have today.

They all really were focused on public policy.

They wanted to get reelected, and they were disappointed that they weren't.

But it wasn't, where it feels like today, the entire focus is on getting reelected, whatever it takes.

There was more of a sense of, I'm going to do the right thing, and I hope I get reelected.

Yeah, and that's different from today.

Yeah.

Most of these leaders in public policy that we cover in the reform area ended in defeat, not the election.

Well, and they still left a legacy and still left a legacy.

Yeah.

That's true.

We're going to have to skip Joan Finney.

That might be an entire other program.

But we're going to move to Bill graves because he, he was a two term governor.

And he's we we still see him actually in TV ads and in recent campaigns.

So let's for those who don't know Bill graves, we'll we'll take a look at, one of his ads.

Right now, I'm Bill graves, Republican for governor.

My family started graves truck line during the depression.

When I worked in here, my dad would say, load them high and tight.

Graves truck line couldn't waste a penny.

As secretary of state, I've run this office as if dad was here.

Yelling load them high and tight, Bill.

So while state spending went up 94%, I held cost to 4%.

Government so used to spending and taxing it.

When Bill graves is governor, they'll think they were hit by a truck.

Bill graves Sheila Frahm for Kansas, number one TV ad political ad in Kansas history that that's that's it.

And still no ad is beat it.

And he's limping a bit from a football injury.

But a lot to say with Bill graves.

What do you talk when you talk about graves in your book.

What do you talk about.

This was really the beginning of what we call reaction.

You know, the book's called reform and reaction.

Graves was clearly a moderate Republican.

Now that rhetoric sounds pretty conservative.

See the same thing with Bob Dole.

He had conservative rhetoric down, but he governed as a moderate.

And graves was clearly a moderate who was pro-choice, which is pretty much unheard of among Republicans today.

He he did put spending caps on state government and regulations, but he had a number of loopholes that if something was needed or if it was approved by him.

And so he had basically conservative ideas implemented moderately.

And he fought with the right in the Kansas Legislature because this was in the 1990s.

And what we see is that the right is growing within the Kansas Republican Party.

This is when, Sam Brownback was elected to the United States Senate.

And the, the Republican Party, parts of it are taking a right turn.

This is also when we started the back and forth about evolution in the state.

Science teaching standards.

But yet this moderate Republican Bill graves got reelected by, I believe, the largest margin of any governor in Kansas history.

So Kansas, particularly the Republican Party, was going to steering a straight course in all directions here by voting for, Sam Brownback, Senate and Bill graves reelected to the governorship.

You covered Bill graves, right?

That's the Tim Carpenter era.

Well, when I think about it, I think it was the beginning of 16 years of really centrist governorship.

You had you had Bill graves and then Kathleen Sebelius and, I think it's it kind of anchored that era and really held back for a while of this conservative movement that really, blossomed later on and, led to, you know, Brownback coming back to the capital with that really conservative agenda.

And, you know, some people think some people think that Sam Brownback was the first truly conservative governor Kansas ever had, sort of a conservative experiment.

Yeah, I, I, I yeah, I guess I push back against that because I think there's, I think there's we need another word because I do.

What you said about graves was really interesting.

You said conservative ideas implemented moderately.

I think that he still had his graves, had many conservative plans and ideas, but it was a it was a different type of conservatism that we're going to maybe see with, with Brownback.

Absolutely.

And I'm only using the word conservative the way it's used today.

I see in the Bennett or Graves era, that word had a different meaning.

Well, we mentioned Kathleen Sebelius.

Let's let's meet her.

Before we talk about that.

Yeah.

This is how things used to be.

Politicians in Topeka fighting and foot dragging over the future of our schools when this is where their focus should have been all along.

Governor Kathleen Sebelius broke through years of legislative gridlock to pass a plan that strengthens our schools.

All it took was leadership to bring people together and put our kids and schools ahead of anything else.

Kathleen Sebelius, Governor, we'll say that the Kansas legislators at the time were really ticked off about that and the way they were portrayed.

But, Tim, you mentioned, you know, Kathleen Sebelius, we had graves, now a Democrat.

You know, what were the Sebelius?

And she leaves a little bit early to go to go, work for for President Obama.

What do you write about Sebelius in your book?

And then we'll asked him to chime in.

Well, this again, is a continuation of this sort of reactionary.

You've got this moderate Democrat, winning the governorship, ultimately serving most of 2011 for the Republicans.

Said she was not moderate.

They didn't liberal.

Of course they did.

Okay.

And ads like that helped her beat that, not unlike her protege, Laura Kelly.

More recently.

But, at the same time, though, within the Kansas Republican Party, it continues to be restive.

This is when Kris Kobach comes onto the scene as a candidate or an anti-immigration activist.

There's, again, back and forth on teaching evolution.

Sam Brownback also got reelected easily.

And let's not forget Phil Klein, the attorney general, who was another show, really, really pushed the envelope on being anti LGBTQ.

And anti-abortion and just being very outspoken.

After Kathleen was Sebelius, Sebelius was reelected on the same ballot that Phil Klein was elected very narrowly, I might add, for Klein, Sebelius expressed astonishment that there were voters that voted for both of them, and that was Kansas politics at that time.

And still today with Laura Kelly.

You'll see it, Absolutely.

Tim, you know, connect the heyday of your reporting source.

You're still in your prime, but so a Sebelius here as you are.

So connect those two dots between Kathleen Sebelius and Laura Kelly.

They're Democrats with, an increasingly conservative legislature really being a backstop on public policy.

The veto pen that they used sometimes not effectively because they were overridden.

I think, Kathleen Sebelius pushed back on concealed carry, things like things of that nature and fought fought the fight, you know, on those issues.

So, I think I think another role that she played was helped with the problem that I think has existed in Washington and in Topeka and elsewhere is that when, one party has all the power in the House and Senate and in the executive, you get bad public policy, you get lazy written bills that just shoot through the process without dissent, without consideration of that dissent, and with the Republican legislature and knowing it, it has to go through the governor's office.

But I think sometimes those bills get tweaked and things get added and subtracted to make them more palatable to the general population.

All right.

We have to move on because we got to make sure we get to Sam Brownback, right?

I mean, it's a significant figure.

So let's, take a quick look at Sam.

Governor Sam Brownback, I'm Sam Brownback and is Smith's center.

Kansas football teams under coach Roger Barta have won 79 consecutive games and five state championships.

Is ideas for raising kids through football?

Give me inspiration for leading Kansas in a little better each day.

Don't take mammoth steps.

Take little one's done the right way and care and respect each other.

Love the person, not the position.

Those are great lessons for winning football and for improving Kansas as governor.

Thanks, coach Sam Brownback for governor.

I always, when I teach, talk about this because he says, don't take mammoth steps.

Didn't he take mammoth steps when he was governor?

Well, Sam Brownback was in a hurry from the start.

Yeah.

And, and farm organizations of various kinds, but, his, idea was to create, create a red state model for government.

He said that openly.

Yeah.

And his the lead of that was his tax experiment to essentially eliminating eventually the state income tax.

And that produced deficit spending and debt.

And, and unfair taxes to the point that his approval ratings started to decline.

And, he eventually left office and, some low spirit.

Brownback hired an economist named Arthur Laffer as a consultant.

Laffer designed something called the Laffer Curve, along with another economist back in the 70s, essentially says if tax rates are excessive and you cut them, you will set off so much economic growth that the tax cuts pay for themselves by broadening the base.

The problem with that is that the highest Kansas tax rate pre Brownback was only 9% for income tax.

They weren't high enough to have a significant Laffer curve effect.

That's my opinion anyway.

I think the data bears it out.

And so originally Bob first of all the way it passed in the legislature was a bit of a maneuver in which it was the Senate agreed to a House bill thinking they were going into conference.

And then the House turned around and passed the Senate bill.

And a lot of senators were not happy about it.

But besides that, you had this Laffer Curve idea that the tax cuts largely will pay for themselves through economic growth.

And that just did not materialize.

Okay.

Let's take a quick look at, Laura Kelly and I have about a minute or two to to wrap it up, Laura Kelly, the current governor, the moment you send them off, you know, a big part of their life is about to be shaped.

For a long time, parents in Kansas felt good in that moment.

I know I did, but things changed.

Sam Brownback sacrificed our schools to pay for his big tax experiment.

Now we're seeing bigger classes, fewer programs, shorter school years.

I'm running for governor to undo that harm.

I want parents to feel comfort every day knowing we're doing right by their kids.

You've written a book called The Arc of Kansas Politics.

It's it's it's quite up to date.

You know, you have the 2018 Laura Kelly election is is Kansas.

First of all, how does Laura Kelly fit into that?

And is Kansas going to keep doing this?

You know, having having these a governor or a moderate or even a moderate Republican or a Democrat being that backstop now against the conservative legislature, or do you see it possibly changing?

And we have time to maybe hit each of you on that.

So we're going to find out whether we go back to a Republican roots gone.

The governorship is gone.

RDR went back and forth and we have three conservative Republican candidates for governor and one person that could be considered a moderate.

So the voters are going to have the choice, as to who they put on the ballot in August of 2026.

In terms of Republican candidate, we'll find out whether we, choose a centrist or go with a conservative.

30s Michael, two things to watch.

Number one, Kansas is tied with Arizona for most elected women as governor in the nation.

Arizona leads by one because of, lieutenant governor that stepped up.

Will that pattern of particularly of Kansas Democrats electing women continue?

And several women in other prominent places have come from the Republican Party in Kansas.

The other issue is the back and forth.

Kansas has developed this pattern.

Republican, Democrat, Republican, Democrat.

Now, by that logic, this is a Republican year.

But is that just superstition or is there actually something to that?

We're going to find out.

Ed, we got 20s give us a, lower.

Kelly benefited from the toxic left by Sam Brownback and but she put together wins in 8 or 9 counties and limited her losses in the rest of the state.

And it's a winning formula that, may again appear in this upcoming election.

All right.

Thank you so much.

That's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

I'm showing you the book now, if you have any comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at issues@ktwu.org.

If you'd like to view this program again, or any previous episodes of IGI, or visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI and so much thanks to my guests.

I'm Bob Beatty.

Thanks for watching.

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