♪ >> CATHY: I.C.E.

OPERATIONS CONTINUE IN THE TWIN CITIES AS THE LOCALS CLASHED HIS PAST WEEK WITH FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AGENTS.

I.C.E.

ACTION HAS BEEN CRITICIZED BY SOME FOR THE WAY THEY'VE HANDLED ARRESTS, INCLUDING COLLATERAL DAMAGE TO JOURNALISTS COVERING OPERATION METRO SURGE AND RESIDENTS LOOKING TO DOCUMENT ACTIVITY.

HERE WITH MORE CONTEXT, JULIA DECKER IS AN IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY AND POLICY DIRECTOR FROM THE IMMIGRANT LAW CENTER OF MINNESOTA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

WE THINK, WE THINK MORE THAN 400 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN THESE IMMIGRATION SWEEPS.

BUT WE REALLY DON'T KNOW.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE LEVEL OF SECRECY THAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH AS AN IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY?

>> YEAH, I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE REALLY DIFFICULT THINGS THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH, PARTICULARLY WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION.

OF COURSE, THIS IS NOT A NEW PROBLEM.

BUT THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY IS REALLY A HALLMARK OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AS PEOPLE ARE TAKEN AWAY, NOT KNOWING WHERE THEY ARE, NOT KNOWING WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THEM, NOT KNOWING HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE BEING ARRESTED AS THESE I.C.E.

ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS HAPPEN.

>> Cathy: YOU MENTIONED, WERE ALL ACTIONS PRIOR TO THIS, THIS SITUATION, SECRETIVE IN THE PAST IN OTHER ADMINISTRATIONS?

OR IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS THAT IS SO DIFFERENT?

>> I THINK THERE HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN TIMES WHERE THERE HAS BEEN AN ASPECT OF SECRETIVENESS TO PRIOR ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS.

HOWEVER, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE -- HAS AMPLIFIED THAT IN A MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE FASHION.

SO NOW IT IS VERY VERY DIFFICULT, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, EVEN FOR LAWYERS, JOURNALISTS, THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO GET EVEN THE GENERAL NUMBERS, FOR INSTANCE.

WHAT WE ONLY HAVE TO RELY ON IS THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN STATED NUMBERS AND NOTHING ELSE AND NO WAY TO VERIFY THOSE NUMBERS OUTSIDE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S OWN STATEMENTS.

>> Eric: WHAT'S THE EXTENT EXTENT OF THE TRAINING YOU MAY PROVIDE TO NOT ONLY BYSTANDERS BUT DEDAINEES THEMSELVES AS FAR AS HOW TO HANDLE THEMSELVES?

>> THERE'S A LOT OF MATERIALS OUT THERE FROM THE IMMIGRANT LAW ENTER, ACLU, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, AND OTHERS, NATIONAL IMMIGRATION ADVOCATE ORGANIZATIONS, AROUND KNOWING YOUR IGHTS, CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, CONSTITUTIONAL, YOU KNOW, CIVIL LIBERTIES.

ONE OF THE DIFFICULTIES, OF COURSE, AS WE HAVE SEEN WITH THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IS THE WILLINGNESS TO VIOLATE THOSE RIGHTS, EVEN WHEN PEOPLE DO EXERCISE THOSE RIGHTS.

SO THAT IS A AIRLY SERIOUS CONCERN.

>> Cathy: AM THE OBSERVERS, I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN TRAINING OBSERVERS, AND SHE SAID WHAT'S OT VERY HELPFUL IS WHEN PEOPLE ARE ELLING AT THE AGENTS, WHERE'S YOUR WARRANT?

WHERE YOU SHOULD BE ASKING, YELLING, AND TRYING TO GET INFORMATION FROM THE PERSON BEING DETAINED.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, RESPONSES THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE IN THE FACE OF AN EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE AND MILITARIZED, HEAVILY MILITARIZED FEDERAL FORCE.

>> Cathy: RIGHT.

>> QUITE FRANKLY.

AND OF, SO, I THINK THERE IS A LEVEL OF GRACE THAT WE HAVE TO EXTEND TO COMMUNITY MEMBERS WHO ARE SEEING THEIR NUMBERS BEING DRAGGED OUT OF THEIR HOUSES AND OUT OF THEIR CARS.

>> Cathy: IS IT ELPFUL TO KNOW WHO HESE PEOPLE ARE THAT ARE BEING DETAINED, THOUGH?

>> ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S ALWAYS HELPFUL TO TRY AND GET AS UCH INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE, WHILE ALSO UNDERSTANDING, OF COURSE, WE ARE FACING AN INCREDIBLY, QUITE FRANKLY, DANGEROUS SITUATION.

AND I THINK FOR MANY PEOPLE, COMMUNITIES, AN UNPRECEDENTED SITUATION.

>> Cathy: GO AHEAD.

>> Eric: HOW DO YOU JUDGE LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT'S PARTICIPATION IN THIS STUFF?

>> THIS IS A VERY LAWYERLY ANSWER, AND I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT IN ADVANCE, BUT IT REALLY DEPENDS.

BECAUSE DIFFERENT STATE AND LOCAL ENTITIES ARE GOING TO HAVE VERY DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES.

SOME HAVE VERY VERY COOPERATIVE RELATIONSHIPS.

OTHERS HAVE SORT OF A FIREWALL BETWEEN THEIR INFORMATION SHARING OR EVEN HOW THEY OPERATE WITH THEM.

SO SOME OF THEM HAVE, YOU KNOW, IT JUST REALLY DEPENDS, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> Cathy: I WANTED TO KIND OF GO BACK TO THOSE WHO ARE BEING DETAINED.

WE'VE BEEN TOLD BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THESE ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST.

BUT WE DON'T -- WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

>> RIGHT.

AND, AGAIN, THIS GOES BACK TO THE TRANSPARENCY ISSUE BECAUSE WE HAVE NO -- WE KNOW FROM PREVIOUS STATISTICS, UP UNTIL THEY SORT OF STOPPED PUBLISHING THEM, THERE WAS ACTUALLY A MAJORITY OF FOLKS WHO WERE BEING DETAINED HAD VERY LOW-LEVEL OR EVEN NO CRIMINAL RECORDS.

THE FOLKS WHO WERE BEING DETAINED BY I.C.E.

SO, WHILE THERE ARE R CERTAINLY SOME FOLKS IN THE DETENTION FACILITY WHO IS WERE OR DID HAVE CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS, WE KNOW -- AT LEAST AT ONE POINT IN TIME, THERE WERE MANY MANY PEOPLE WHO ALSO HAD VERY LOW-LEVEL OR NO CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS AT ALL.

>> Eric: ONE OF THE HOMELAND FOLKS, SPOKESMAN SAID, QUOTE, MINNESOTA IS SAFER WITH THESE THUGS OFF THE STREET.

THE INFORMATION DOESN'T BEAR THAT OUT THAT THERE ARE THUGS ON THE STREET?

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, SO I THINK THIS IS ALSO A HALLMARK OF THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN THE USE OF INCREDIBLY DEHUMANIZING AND SORT OF DEROGATORY RHETORIC WHEN TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRANTS, REFUGEES, NONCITIZENS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS WANT TO -- I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND CONSIDER THAT ANY TIME WE TALK ABOUT ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PEOPLE WHO ARE BAD ACTORS.

AND ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE, WHETHER IT'S CITIZENS OR NONCITIZENS.

BUT TO SINGLE OUT, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THIS CURRENT ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS THAT WE'RE SEEING IN MINNESOTA, IT WAS PARTICULARLY TARGETED INITIALLY AT THE SOMALI COMMUNITY, IN A WAY THAT WE DID NOT SEE IN PREVIOUS RHETORIC OR ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS.

AND THE LANGUAGE THAT WAS USED WAS PARTICULARLY DEROGATORY, PARTICULARLY HARSH AND DANGEROUS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE WANT TO BE AWARE OF THE WAY THAT THE LANGUAGE IS BEING ARGETED OFTEN AT RACIAL MINORITIES AND THAT, YOU KNOW, ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE CERTAINLY IS GOING TO HAVE BAD ACTORS, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THAT SHOULD BE THEN IMPLICATE ALL PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP.

>> Cathy: RIGHT.

>> Eric: APPRECIATE YOU COMING OVER.

GIVING YOU THE BENEFIT OF