>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Jeff: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, PROTECTING THE UNDOCUMENTED.

AN ATTORNEY WITH THE NEW MEXICO IMMIGRANT LAW CENTER TELLS US HOW STATE LAWMAKERS AND EVERYDAY CITIZENS CAN PUSH BACK AGAINST THREATS OF MASS DEPORTATION FROM A NEW TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> Genovese: THIS TYPE OF SUSTAINED ORGANIZING FROM ORDINARY FOLKS ALL ACROSS THE STATE IS GOING TO BE CRITICAL AS WE INTERRUPT THE DEPORTATION SYSTEM.

>> Jeff: AND, ONCE UNHOUSED, NOW HELPING OTHERS.

A MAN WHO SPENT SEVERAL YEARS ON THE STREETS TALKS ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE AND HOW IT LED TO ADVOCACY WORK.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

I'M EXECUTIVE PRODUCE JEFF PROCTOR.

THIS WEEK, WE CONTINUE OUR LOOK AHEAD TO THE NEXT TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WITH A FOCUS THIS WEEK ON IMMIGRATION.

I RECENTLY SAT DOWN WITH SOPHIA GENOVESE, MANAGING ATTORNEY AT THE NEW MEXICO IMMIGRANT LAW CENTER, WHO'S WORKED WITH ASYLUM SEEKERS FOR YEARS.

IN OUR DISCUSSION, SOPHIA EXPLAINS HOW ADVOCATES AND LAWMAKERS ARE ALREADY WORKING ON NEW WAYS TO PUSH BACK AGAINST A PRESIDENT-ELECT WHO CAMPAIGNED ON THE PROMISE OF MASS DEPORTATIONS.

SOPHIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE, AND WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Genovese: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: NOW, FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN PAYING EVEN CURSORY ATTENTION TO NATIONAL POLITICS OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST YEAR HAVE HEARD THREE PHRASES ON REPEAT FROM DONALD TRUMP AND HIS CREW.

THE PHRASES ARE MASS RAIDS, MASS DETENTION, AND MOST OF ALL MASS DEPORTATION.

LET'S TRY AND CLARIFY A LITTLE BIT IF WE CAN, WHAT IS LOGISTICALLY AND LEGALLY POSSIBLE FOR THE PRESIDENT-ELECT AND WHAT SHOULD KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S ALREADY HAPPENING?

>> Genovese: YEAH, THIS IS A BIG CHALLENGE FOR OUR COMMUNITIES.

I THINK THE RHETORIC IS SO INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.

IT'S SCARY, AND I PERSONALLY COULDN'T IMAGINE HAVING TO CONFRONT ENFORCEMENT AND RAIDS AS AN INDIVIDUAL OR FOR MY FAMILIES.

SO, I THINK THAT'S ONE PIECE.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO SUPPORT IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES AND PROTECTING THEMSELVES AND STANDING UNITED TOGETHER.

AND REJECTING ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

WHEN IT COMES TO FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW, THE ABILITY TO DETAIN PEOPLE AND REMOVE THEM FROM THE COUNTRY IS QUITE CLEAR.

PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED ARE ALWAYS AT RISK OF ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

THE PROBLEM IS THE FEDERAL LAW.

SO, DONALD TRUMP WILL BE WITHIN HIS RIGHT TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS.

IN PRIOR ADMINISTRATIONS, CERTAINLY UNDER OBAMA AND UNDER BIDEN, THERE WERE THESE THINGS CALLED ENFORCEMENT PRIORITIES BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DEPORT ALL 11 MILLION UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE FROM THE U.S.

SO, WHAT THEY DID WAS CREATE CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE TO DIRECT THEIR ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

THE FIRST CATEGORY WERE NEWLY-ARRIVED ASYLUM SEEKERS.

THOSE ARE ALWAYS PRIORITIES FOR ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

AND THE OTHER CATEGORY WAS PEOPLE WITH ANY KIND OF INTERACTION WITH CRIMINAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

OTHER PEOPLE WHO FELL OUTSIDE OF THOSE CATEGORIES WERE ALWAYS STILL AT RISK OF ENFORCEMENT, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY REALLY FOCUSED THEIR EFFORTS ON THOSE CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE.

UNDER OBAMA AND UNDER BIDEN, BECAUSE THEY FOCUSED THEIR RESOURCES THEY WERE ABLE TO DEPORT MANY MORE PEOPLE.

UNDER THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HE GOT RID OF THESE PRIORITIES AND MADE EVERYONE A PRIORITY FOR ENFORCEMENT.

WE SAW WORKPLACE RAIDS, FAMILIES SEPARATED AND PLACED IN DETENTION AND REMOVAL PROCEEDINGS.

OUR DETENTION POPULATION RAISED OVER 50,000 PEOPLE.

WE'RE AT 49,000 PEOPLE RIGHT NOW, BY THE WAY.

AND BECAUSE HE MADE EVERYONE A PRIORITY HE DEPORTED FEWER PEOPLE THAN OBAMA OR BIDEN.

SO, I ANTICIPATE THAT SAME THING HAPPENING COME JANUARY, SUDDENLY EVERYONE IS A PRIORITY FOR ENFORCEMENT AGAIN.

THAT CLOGS THE SYSTEM.

IT'S INCREDIBLY SCARY, BUT LOGISTICALLY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DEPORT 11 MILLION UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE.

SO, COMMUNITIES NEED TO BE PREPARED TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST ENFORCEMENT, FIGHT BACK AGAINST DETENTION AND DEPORTATION WHILE ALSO BEING VERY CLEAR-EYED ABOUT WHAT IS LOGISTICALLY POSSIBLE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GET TO SOME OF WHAT THE COMMUNITY CAN DO TOWARDS THE END OF OUR CONVERSATION.

EVEN JUST THAT SHIFT IN RHETORIC AND THE POLICY SHIFT FROM PRIORITIZED TO CHAOTICALLY UNPRIORITIZED, WHAT DOES JUST THAT FEELING MEAN AND HOW WILL IT IMPACT IMMIGRANTS IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Genovese: YEAH, I THINK WHAT WE'RE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT ARE WORKSITE RAIDS.

SO, REALLY PROTECTING IMMIGRANT WORKERS, UNDOCUMENTED OR DOCUMENTED OR IN PROCESS OR NOT IN PROCESS.

HELPING COMMUNITY MEMBERS PREPARE THEIR FAMILIES IN THE EVENT OF A PARENT BEING ARRESTED.

WHO IS GOING TO PICK UP THEIR KID AT THE END OF THE SCHOOL DAY?

SO, IN NEW MEXICO, WHAT WE'RE DOING AS ADVOCACY GROUPS WITH OUR PARTNERS IS EDUCATING FOLKS ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS IN THE WORKPLACE, THEIR RIGHTS IN PUBLIC, THEIR RIGHTS AT HOME IF ICE COMES KNOCKING.

WE'RE PREPARING U.S. CITIZENS TO KNOW THESE RIGHTS AS WELL FOR BUSINESS OWNERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DON'T HAVE TO LET ICE INTO THE NON-PUBLIC AREAS OF THEIR WORKPLACE.

THESE ARE THINGS AND STEPS THAT WE CAN TAKE TO REDUCE ENFORCEMENT.

IN NEW MEXICO, WE DO HAVE THREE DETENTION CENTERS HERE, AND WE CAN ANTICIPATE EXPANDED DETENTION PERHAPS WITH THE MILITARY OR PERHAPS THROUGH PRIVATE CONTRACTING WITH PRIVATE PRISON COMPANIES.

BUT THIS IS ONE STEP WE CAN DO TO REDUCE ENFORCEMENT.

>> Jeff: ANOTHER QUESTION I WANT TO ASK IS DOES ANYONE BENEFIT FROM THIS SHIFT IN POLICY, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY DOES ANYONE PROFIT FROM IT?

>> Genovese: IF THE IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES TRY AND ARREST THE 50,000 UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO, THAT WILL HAVE FAR-REACHING CONSEQUENCES FOR ALL OF US.

NOT JUST ECONOMICALLY, BUT SOCIALLY, RELIGIOUSLY, CIVICALLY.

THAT'S 50,000 PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES WHO ARE TORN APART AND ARE INTEGRAL TO OUR COMMUNITIES.

I THINK PRIVATE PRISON COMPANIES CERTAINLY STAND TO PROFIT OFF OF THIS.

THAT'S CERTAINLY NO JUSTIFICATION TO WREAK THIS KIND OF HAVOC ON OUR COMMUNITIES.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO SHIFT GEARS A LITTLE BIT AND TALK ABOUT TWO OTHER CORNERS OF THE TRUMP AGENDA WHERE IMMIGRATION IS CONCERNED.

ONE IS THE NOTION OF CLOSING THE BORDER, AND THE OTHER IS THE NOTION OF STOPPING PEOPLE FROM GAMING THE ASYLUM SYSTEM.

WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE MAKE OF TRUMP'S PLANS ON THOSE FRONTS?

>> Genovese: SIMILARLY, THE RHETORIC IS REALLY SCARY WITH THE THREAT OF CLOSING THE BORDER.

TECHNICALLY, UNDER THE LAW, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE, BUT WE'LL SEE WHAT IS TESTED OUT AND WHAT THE COURTS DO OR DON'T DO TO STOP EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY TO DO THINGS THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO DO.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE BORDER AND ASYLUM SEEKERS, MY CONCERN HAS ALWAYS BEEN WHEN WE ENACT MORE AND MORE CARCERAL POLICIES, RESTRICTIVE POLICIES THAT PUSH PEOPLE OUT, WHAT WE'RE REALLY DOING IS PUSHING PEOPLE FURTHER INTO THE SHADOWS, INTO THE HANDS OF SMUGGLERS.

PEOPLE ARE DETERMINED TO GET TO THE UNITED STATES FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, TYPICALLY HAVING TO DO WITH THEIR SAFETY.

THEIR AND THEIR FAMILY'S STABILITY.

WHEN YOU TAKE AWAY ENTRY POINTS TO SEEK ASYLUM, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GO TO SMUGGLERS, THEY'RE GOING TO GO TO CARTELS TO GET THEM INTO THE UNITED STATES.

CARTELS LOVE THESE POLICIES.

IT'S MAKING THEM SO MUCH MONEY.

BUT IT'S JEOPARDIZING PEOPLE'S SAFETY IN THE PROCESS.

WE SEE PEOPLE PACKED INTO CARGO TRUCKS.

THEY CAN'T BREATHE, MAYBE THE CARGO TRUCK GETS IN AN ACCIDENT AND PEOPLE DIE.

PEOPLE ARE INCREASINGLY TAKING RISKY ROUTES INTO THE UNITED STATES TO THE NEW MEXICO DESERT AND DYING IN RESULT.

WE HAVE HAD MORE DEATHS OVER THE PAST YEAR THAN ANY OTHER PREVIOUS YEAR.

PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO STOP COMING, BUT IT'S GOING TO GET INCREASINGLY DANGEROUS FOR THEM.

THERE WILL BE LOSS OF LIFE, AND I THINK PERHAPS THAT'S THE POINT.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO SPEND JUST ANOTHER SECOND ON THIS IDEA OF PEOPLE GAMING THE ASYLUM SYSTEM.

I FEEL LIKE DURING THE COURSE OF THE CAMPAIGN WE HEARD THAT LINE OF NARRATIVE, FRANKLY FROM TRUMP CAMPAIGN AND THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY HAPPENING?

WHAT SHOULD WE MAKE OF THAT IDEA THAT PEOPLE ARE SOMEHOW GAMING THE ASYLUM SYSTEM?

>> Genovese: I WORK WITH THOUSANDS OF ASYLUM SEEKERS EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

PEOPLE ARE FLEEING TORTURE, TOTALITARIAN REGIMES.

PEOPLE I'M WORKING WITH ARE BEING PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED ALL ALONG THE WAY UP TO THE UNITED STATES AS THEY SEEK SAFETY.

PEOPLE ARE SCARED TO RETURN TO THEIR HOME COUNTRIES.

THEY LOVE THEIR HOME COUNTRIES BY AND LARGE AND WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO STAY THERE, BUT INCREASINGLY IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

THEY RISK DEATH IF THEY STAY.

THAT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE COMING TO THE UNITED STATES TO SEEK ASYLUM, TO SEEK SAFETY AND STABILITY FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS, THERE HAVE BEEN INCREASING MEASURES TO RESTRICT ACCESS TO ASYLUM AND WE'RE DEPORTING PEOPLE BACK TO DANGER EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I WORKED WITH A GENTLEMAN OVER THE SUMMER WHO WAS SUFFERING A NUMBER OF HEALTH ISSUES WHILE IN DETENTION WHO FLED VERY REAL VIOLENCE IN VENEZUELA, AND THE GOVERNMENT ULTIMATELY DEPORTED HIM BACK TO MEXICO BECAUSE IT CANNOT DEPORT PEOPLE TO VENEZUELA RIGHT NOW.

I'M IN TOUCH WITH HIM AND HE CONTINUES TO BE ROBBED, HE CONTINUES TO BE BEATEN.

HE HAS NO PROSPECTS FOR STABILITY AND SAFETY FOR HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY.

THIS IS THE HUMAN CONSEQUENCE OF THESE RESTRICTIVE POLICIES.

>> Jeff: AND IT'S WORTH NOTING, AT LEAST, THESE ARE FOLKS WHO ARE FLEEING COUNTRIES THAT AMERICA HAS SPENT TIME MEDDLING IN AND SORT OF DESTROYING IN ITS WAY.

I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT, AND WE'VE HAD A BUNCH OF THESE CONVERSATIONS.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE NOTION OF INOCULATION AND WHETHER NEW MEXICO CAN SORT OF PUSH BACK AGAINST WHAT WE'RE SEEING FROM THE INCOMING PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION.

THE GOVERNOR HAS MENTIONED THE WORD RESIST ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS INCLUDING IMMIGRATION.

THE STATE HOUSE SPEAKER JAVIVER MARTINEZ HAS TALKED ABOUT NEW MEXICO BEING TRUMP-PROOF.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THOSE KINDS OF STATEMENTS AND REMARKS FROM STATE LEADERS IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Genovese: I THINK IT GIVES ME HOPE THAT THE STATE IS WILLING TO FIGHT BACK AT THE STATE LEVEL.

THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS WE CAN DO TO EVEN FURTHER IMPROVE IMMIGRANT RIGHTS AND PROTECTIONS IN NEW MEXICO.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE CAN STOP OUR DATA-SHARING AT THE STATE LEVEL WITH ICE TO PREVENT ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

WE CAN CANCEL OUR ICE DETENTION CONTRACTS SO WE'RE NOT PARTICIPATING IN THE ENFORCEMENT, APPREHENSION AND DETENTION AND DEPORTATION OF NEW MEXICANS.

SO, THERE'S CERTAINLY QUITE A FEW PROTECTIONS THAT EXIST ALREADY, BUT THERE'S MORE THAT WE NEED TO DO AT THE STATE LEVEL TO PROTECT IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES.

I THINK ANOTHER PIECE IS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS FEDERAL LAW.

ICE EXISTS IN NEW MEXICO.

THERE'S MANY ICE OFFICES AND ICE AGENTS ALL THE ACROSS THE STATE.

AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY'RE ABLE AND EMPOWERED TO ENFORCE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW.

SO, WHEN THAT DOES HAPPEN, WHAT CAN THE STATE'S RESPONSE BE FOR WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS?

THAT'S FUNDING PROGRAMS TO PROVIDE EVERYONE AN IMMIGRATION LAWYER FACING REMOVAL.

IT'S PROVIDING PROGRAMS TO THOSE FAMILIES THAT ARE STRUGGLING IN THE ABSENCE OF ONE PARENT OR PERHAPS TWO PARENTS.

WHO IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THE FAMILY?

IT'S PROVIDING THOSE RESOURCES TO ENSURE CONTINUED CARE.

SO, THERE'S A LOT MORE THAT CAN HAPPEN, BUT THE FACT THAT STATE LEADERS HAVE STEPPED UP AND SAID THEY'RE GOING TO FIGHT BACK GIVES ME HOPE.

>> Jeff: DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE SOME EXPANDED PROTECTIONS PROPOSED, FOR EXAMPLE, DURING THE UPCOMING 60-DAY SESSION WHICH ODDLY ENOUGH BEGINS ON INAUGURATION DAY?

>> Genovese: ABSOLUTELY.

ADVOCACY GROUPS WERE REALLY QUICK TO ORGANIZE AND WORK TOGETHER TO INTRODUCE AND HELP SUPPORT DIFFERENT POLICIES TO EXPAND PROTECTIONS, TO REDUCE THE STATE'S INVOLVEMENT IN IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.

SO, WE WILL BE FIGHTING ALL SESSION LONG TO PASS THOSE PROTECTIONS.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO MOVE THE CONVERSATION WITH A FEW MINUTES LEFT, SOPHIA, TO THE IDEA OF WHAT FOLKS WHO LIVE IN THIS STATE -- THIS IS A STATE THAT DURING THIS PAST ELECTION WE DID SEE A LITTLE BIT OF A TRUMPWARD SHIFT IN THE ELECTORATE, BUT IN THE MAIN, THIS IS A STATE THAT VERY MUCH DID NOT CARE FOR HIS AGENDA, DID NOT VOTE FOR HIS AGENDA.

SO, IN A STATE LIKE THIS, WHAT CAN FOLKS DO THAT'S OUTSIDE THE NORMAL OR USUAL GOVERNMENT CONTEXT TO TAKE CARE OF ONE ANOTHER AND LIVE IN A WAY THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM WHAT TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS TO DO?

>> Genovese: YEAH, I THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO REMEMBER THEIR OWN POWER.

YOU DON'T NEED A LAW DEGREE.

YOU DON'T NEED TO WORK AT A FANCILY LAW FIRM OR FANCY ORGANIZATION TO USE YOUR VOICE AND ASSERT PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT TO DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO.

UNDER THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ADVOCATES WORKED TOGETHER TO CREATE PARTICIPATORY DEFENSE CAMPAIGNS.

THESE HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES, PARTICULARLY IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL CONTEXT, BUT WE'VE ADOPTED IN THE IMMIGRANT RIGHTS CONTEXT AS WELL.

FOR ME, I WAS TRAINED BY UNDOCUMENTED ORGANIZERS IN NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY WHO WERE SO INCREDIBLE IN FIGHTING BACK AGAINST UNJUST DEPORTATIONS, AND ALL DEPORTATIONS ARE UNJUST IN OUR MINDS.

WHAT WE WOULD DO WAS COME TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY, WE WOULD PHONE BANK, WE WOULD CALL OUR ELECTED LEADERS, WE WOULD CALL ICE DEMANDING SOMEONE'S RELEASE FROM DETENTION.

WE WOULD PUBLICIZE THIS PERSON'S STORY, OF COURSE WITH CONSENT, ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

GET ON THE NEWS AND TALK ABOUT INDIVIDUAL DEPORTATION CASES AND ASSERT PRESSURE WHERE WE CAN.

ONE INCREDIBLE EXAMPLE OF THIS TYPE OF PARTICIPATORY DEFENSE CAMPAIGN CAME IN THE CASE OF A WOMAN WE CALL MS. Q, PUBLICLY.

SHE HAD A DEPORTATION ORDER, SHE HAD AN INTERACTION WITH CRIMINAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AND IT SEEMED LIKE SHE WAS GOING TO BE DEPORTED.

IN THE PROCESS OF HER TRANSFER TO AN ICE DETENTION FACILITY, SHE WAS PHYSICALLY BRUTALIZED, RESULTING IN A BROKEN ANKLE.

SHE WAS SUBJECTED TO REALLY HORRIFIC ABUSES IN THE COUNTY JAIL WHERE SHE WAS DETAINED.

SHE WASN'T ALLOWED TO SHOWER FOR MORE THAN A WEEK.

SHE WAS COVERED IN BLOOD.

SHE WAS NOT FED.

SHE WASN'T GIVE AN MATTRESS.

THE CONDITIONS WERE REALLY HORRIFIC.

AND THE CONDITIONS HAD BEEN KNOWN AT THIS FACILITY, BUT NO ONE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO ACT.

BUT WITH HER BROKEN ANKLE, ICE COULDN'T DEPORT HER.

SO WE HAD TIME TO MOBILIZE.

COMMUNITY MEMBERS FROM ALL ACROSS THE STATE CAME TOGETHER.

WE HAD CORNELL UNIVERSITY STUDENTS LEADING PHONE BANKING DAILY FOR SEVERAL WEEKS DEMANDING HER RELEASE.

WE HAD COMMUNITY MEMBERS ORGANIZE A RALLY AND A MARCH THROUGH THE TOWN WHERE THE JAIL WAS LOCATED.

WE HAD A BIG RALLY IN FRONT OF THE JAIL ITSELF.

WE HAD MS. Q'S FAMILY TALK ABOUT AND PLEAD WITH THE GOVERNMENT TO PLEASE RELEASE HER.

WE HAD MEMBERS OF CONGRESS JOIN THE FIGHT AND DEMANDING HER RELEASE.

ULTIMATELY, BECAUSE OF THIS COMMUNITY PRESSURE, THE SUSTAINED PRESSURE, ICE RELEASED HER.

AND MS. Q IS STILL HERE IN THE UNITED STATES SEVERAL YEARS LATER FIGHTING TO BE ABLE TO GET STATUS IN THIS COUNTRY.

SHE WAS RELEASED NOT AS A RESULT OF ANY LEGAL ADVOCACY I DID AS HER LAWYER, IT WAS THE COMMUNITY PRESSURE DEMANDING HER RELEASE FROM DETENTION THAT GOT HER OUT.

SO, THIS TYPE OF SUSTAINED ORGANIZING FROM ORDINARY FOLKS ALL ACROSS THE STATE IS GOING TO BE CRITICAL AS WE INTERRUPT THE DEPORTATION SYSTEM, INTERRUPT THE DETENTION SYSTEM.

YOU DON'T NEED ANY SPECIALIZED SKILLS TO DO THIS.

YOU JUST NEED TO STAND UP AND USE YOUR VOICE.

>> Jeff: IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE'S SOME PLANS FOR SOME PARTICIPATORY DEFENSE ACTIONS IN NEW MEXICO COMING UP.

>> Genovese: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Jeff: SOPHIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE CONVERSATION LET'S DEFINITELY STAY IN TOUCH.

>> Genovese: THANK YOU.

>> Tashjian: WATER IN NEW MEXICO IS MANAGED ON WHAT'S CALLED THE PRIORITY ADMINISTRATION SYSTEM.

THIS IS LIKE MOST OTHER WESTERN STATES MANAGE ON A SIMILAR SYSTEM.

IT'S A SYSTEM OF EXTRACTION.

IT'S A WINNER-TAKE-ALL SYSTEM.

AND HOW IT WORKS IS THAT PERMITS ARE ISSUED FOR WATER RIGHT USERS UNTIL THERE'S NO WATER LEFT.

>> Jeff: OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS EXPLAINS WATER RIGHTS ON NEW MEXICO RIVERS IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

KNOWN BY MANY FOR THE RAINBOW SHOES HE WEARS WHILE ATTENDING ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS, JAMES FREEMAN IS A DIRECTOR AT HOPEWORKS AND AN OUTSPOKEN ADVOCATE FOR THE UNHOUSED IN ALBUQUERQUE.

IN THIS SEGMENT THAT FIRST RAN IN MAY, KUNM'S MEGAN KAMERICK SITS DOWN WITH FREEMAN TO TALK ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE LIVING IN SHELTERS AND ON THE STREETS.

PLUS, HE SHARES HIS THOUGHTS ON A PROPOSED PLAN TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS IN THE STATE'S LARGEST CITY.

>> Megan: JAMES FREEMAN, THANKS FOR JOINING US ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Freeman: THANK YOU, MEGAN, SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Megan: JAMES, YOU CAME TO ALBUQUERQUE IN 2016 ON THE BUS.

DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF RESOURCES.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOU ENDED UP LIVING ON THE STREET AND WHAT THAT WAS LIKE?

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT I DIDN'T HAVE FAMILY SUPPORT HERE.

I DIDN'T KNOW ANYBODY HERE.

I ENDED UP HERE AFTER A BAD MARRIAGE BREAKUP.

AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO GET BY.

SO I HAD SOME MONEY, BUT I WAS PRECARIOUSLY HOUSED.

I WAS LIVING IN A HOTEL.

I QUICKLY FOUND MYSELF ON THE STREETS AND ACCESSING RESOURCES LIKE THE WEST SIDE SHELTER AND OTHER FACILITIES.

>> Megan: WHERE DID YOU SLEEP?

I MEAN, WHAT WERE YOUR BIGGEST CONCERNS ABOUT SAFETY AND GETTING BASIC NEEDS MET?

>> Freeman: SO, I AM A BIG GUY.

SO, I DIDN'T FEEL SO MUCH PHYSICALLY THREATENED AS MUCH AS HYPERVIGILANT.

I FELT LIKE I COULD NEVER CLOSE MY EYES MORE THAN AN HOUR OR TWO.

I FELT LIKE I WAS ALWAYS UNDER THREAT OF BEING ROBBED.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME.

THAT WAS A SERIOUS CONCERN.

I DID STAY AT ONE OF THE -- RIGHT OUTSIDE ONE OF THE SENIOR CENTERS OVER ON COORS AND BRIDGE.

THAT WAS KIND OF MY MAIN PLACE.

BACK THEN, THE WEST SIDE WAS SEASONAL.

SO IT WAS ONLY OPEN FROM NOVEMBER 15TH TO MARCH 15TH.

OUTSIDE OF THAT, I WAS STAYING AT A GENERATIONAL CENTER.

I DID HAVE A PARTNER THAT I CAMPED WITH.

WE TOOK TURNS.

YOU KNOW, WATCHING OUT FOR EACH OTHER.

LIKE IT'S MY TURN TO WATCH, YOU STAY UP AND PROTECT ME.

THEN WE TOOK TURNS LIKE THAT.

>> Megan: THAT MUST BE SO HARD.

YOU NEVER REALLY GET TO SLEEP.

>> Freeman: IT WAS VERY TAXING ON MY MENTAL HEALTH AS FAR AS BEING THAT HYPERVIGILANT ALL THE TIME.

YOU'RE CONSTANTLY IN FEAR.

YOU'RE CONSTANTLY ON GUARD.

ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: WHAT ABOUT THINGS LIKE GETTING A SHOWER OR USING A BATHROOM?

>> Freeman: RIGHT, THESE ARE THINGS WE TAKE FOR GRANTED BEING HOUSED.

MY GO-TO WAS HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST PRIVATE SHOWERS IN ALBUQUERQUE.

I WOULD GO THERE ROUTINELY.

ALSO, THE ROCK AT NOONDAY HAS VERY NICE SHOWER FACILITIES.

THOSE ARE KIND OF MY GO-TO.

BUT YOU PLAN YOUR ENTIRE DAY AROUND HOW AM I GOING TO USE THE RESTROOM.

HOW AM I GOING TO USE THIS FACILITY, HOW AM I GOING TO TAKE A SHOWER.

AND SO, THAT TOOK UP A CONSIDERABLE PART OF MY DAY.

>> Megan: WELL, ESPECIALLY ON WEEKENDS, RIGHT?

A LOT OF THESE PLACES AREN'T OPEN.

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

TAKING A SHOWER ON THE WEEKEND IS ALMOST UNATTAINABLE.

IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.

SO, YEAH, THAT WAS NEVER REALLY A CONSIDERATION.

BUT JUST USING THE BATHROOM ON SATURDAY AND SUNDAY, YOU KNOW, IF THE LIBRARY IS CLOSED -- THE LIBRARY ON COPPER ON 5th IS A VERY POPULAR BATHROOM FOR A LOT OF UNHOUSED, UNSHELTERED PEOPLE.

AND WHEN IT'S CLOSED, THAT'S A HUGE BARRIER.

>> Megan: I DON'T THINK WE THINK ABOUT THAT A LOT.

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

IT'S SOMETHING WE TAKE FOR GRANTED BY BEING HOUSED.

>> Megan: IT SOUNDS LIKE EVEN IF SOMEONE DIDN'T HAVE TRAUMA IN THEIR PAST, IF THEY LIVE ON THE STREET LONG ENOUGH, THEY GET EXPOSED TO A LOT OF TRAUMA.

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, WE OFTEN SAY, IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE PTSD SYMPTOMS BEFORE BEING HOMELESS, YOU DEFINITELY DISPLAY THEM WHILE BEING HOMELESS AND AFTER.

BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE HYPERVIGILANCE.

I'VE WITNESSED PEOPLE BEING ASSAULTED, SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.

SOME OF THE MOST DEPRAVITY YOU CAN IMAGINE.

IT DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN TO ME, BUT AT TIMES JUST WITNESSING THAT CAN BE VERY EMOTIONALLY CHARGING AND POWERFUL.

>> Megan: I CAN'T IMAGINE.

WHAT KIND OF EFFECTS DID THAT HAVE ON YOU AND OTHER PEOPLE YOU MET LIVING ON THE STREET?

GOING THROUGH THIS DAY AFTER DAY FOR MONTHS.

>> Freeman: I WOULD SAY A LOT OF IT IS YOUR TRUST IS ERODED.

YOUR TRUST IN HUMANITY, YOUR ABILITY TO ASK FOR HELP, YOUR ABILITY TO BE VULNERABLE IS DEFINITELY AFFECTED.

SO IT TOOK ME YEARS TO GET PAST THAT AND BE ABLE TO TRUST PEOPLE AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, TO RELATE TO PEOPLE AND FEEL TRUST AND VULNERABILITY AGAIN.

>> Megan: THAT PROBABLY HAMPERS PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO ACCESS RESOURCES WHEN THEY'RE OFFERED.

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

I WOULD SAY THAT'S A HUGE BARRIER.

THIS IDEA THAT YOU TELL A PERSON ONE TIME, HEY, IF YOU GO TO THIS AGENCY YOU CAN GET HELP.

YOU'RE LIKE I DON'T TRUST PEOPLE, I DON'T FEEL LIKE THAT'S FOR ME.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY WOULD GIVE ME HELP.

IT TAKES MANY, MANY TIMES.

SO WE HAVE TO CONSTANTLY REINFORCE THAT, THE ACCESS TO RESOURCES.

BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THEIR TRUST BROKEN, ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: WHY WOULD PEOPLE SAY THAT THAT'S NOT FOR ME, OR I DON'T DESERVE THAT?

>> Freeman: MANY DIFFERENT REASONS, MEGAN.

IT COULD BE THE WAY THEY WERE BROUGHT UP FROM THEIR FAMILY.

IT COULD BE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT GREW UP IN THE CONSERVATIVE SOUTH.

YOU FEEL LIKE THAT'S FOR SOMEBODY ELSE.

I SHOULDN'T NEED THAT.

I SHOULDN'T ASK FOR HELP.

I SHOULDN'T EXPECT HELP.

SO, THAT CREATES A HUGE PROBLEM IN THE COMMUNITY IS GETTING THROUGH TO PEOPLE, LIKE, EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO THESE RESOURCES.

EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE.

>> Megan: EVERYBODY MIGHT NEED HELP AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIFE.

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: YOU MENTIONED YOU SPENT ABOUT FOUR MONTHS AT THE WEST SIDE EMERGENCY SHELTER.

THIS IS WHEN, AS YOU SAID, IT WAS SEASONAL.

IT WASN'T 24-7.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> Freeman: FOR ME, THE WEST SIDE WAS GREAT.

THIS IS BACK IN, YOU KNOW, EIGHT YEARS AGO.

AND I DEFINITELY CONSIDER IT A SHELTER OF LAST RESORT.

IT SHOULD NOT BE THE GO-TO PLACE.

IT SHOULD NOT BE THE PLACE WHERE WE HOUSE PEOPLE FOR YEARS.

>> Megan: WHY DO YOU THINK THAT?

>> Freeman: SO, I'M SORRY.

SAY THAT AGAIN.

>> Megan: WHY DO YOU THINK IT SHOULDN'T BE OUR GO-TO PLACE FOR HOUSING PEOPLE?

IT'S PRETTY FAR AWAY FROM EVERYTHING.

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

SO, THERE'S A LOT OF FACTORS.

IT WAS A 30-MINUTE BUS RIDE TO AND FROM EVERY SINGLE DAY.

WHERE YOU'RE CRAMMED ON LIKE A SCHOOL BUS.

IT IS AN ACTUAL SCHOOL BUS.

JUST THE LOGISTICS OF GETTING ON THE BUS, YOU'RE SITTING OUT -- AT THIS TIME WE'RE AT CORONADO PARK.

WE'RE SITTING AT CORONADO PARK IN THE ELEMENTS BEING RAINED ON IN THE COLD, IN THE WINTER, AND WE HAVE TO SPEND HOURS GETTING ON THE BUS.

AND THEN WE'RE HERDED ON TO THE BUS AND NOT A VERY KIND FASHION.

AND WE SPEND 30 MINUTES IN TRAFFIC GETTING OUT TO THE WEST SIDE.

AND IT IS AN OLD JAIL.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO WAY TO CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT'S AN OLD JAIL.

AND SO, AGAIN, I REALLY CONSIDER IT A SHELTER OF LAST RESORT.

I STAYED AT THE AOC, THE HEADING HOME'S ALBUQUERQUE OPPORTUNITY CENTER.

THAT WAS A MUCH BETTER SHELTER.

THERE'S SO MUCH MORE GOING ON.

YOU'RE ABLE TO USE THE COMPUTER.

>> Megan: IT'S OVER ON CANDELARIA.

MUCH MORE CENTRAL.

>> Freeman: CORRECT.

YOU'RE ABLE TO DO SO MUCH MORE AT THE AOC.

IT'S JUST MORE OF A KIND, LOVING PLACE.

SO I'M JUST KIND OF COMPARING THOSE TWO.

BACK TO THE WEST SIDE.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, IF YOU'RE FACING TERRIBLE CONDITIONS, IF IT'S COLD, IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY RESOURCES, I THINK IT'S A GREAT PLACE.

AGAIN, I WOULD RATHER MOVE PEOPLE TO THE GATEWAY.

I WOULD RATHER MOVE EVERYONE TO THE GATEWAY.

>> Megan: THE GATEWAY CENTER?

>> FREEMAN: YEAH.

I THINK WE SPENT LOT OF MONEY.

IT'S A 570,000 SQUARE-FOOT BUILDING.

I THINK THAT WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER FACILITY TO STORE PEOPLE.

BECAUSE THERE'S NO PLAN TO END HOMELESSNESS ANY TIME SOON.

SO, I THINK CREATING A BETTER ENVIRONMENT LIKE THE GATEWAY WOULD BE SUPERIOR.

>> Megan: WHAT WERE CONDITIONS LIKE AT THE WEST SIDE SHELTER?

WE'VE HEARD, MORE RECENTLY, SOME STORIES ABOUT THIS.

I KNOW YOUR EXPERIENCES THERE WAS A WHILE AGO.

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

SO, I DON'T FEEL LIKE MY STAY WAS ACCURATE TO WHAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING NOW BECAUSE WE WERE KICKED OUT EVERY DAY.

BECAUSE WE WERE CONSTANTLY -- THEY WERE CONSTANTLY CLEANING THE PLACE.

AT 6:00 A.M. EVERY DAY WE WERE KICKED OUT.

WE DIDN'T COME BACK UNTIL 4:00 P.M., SO THEY WERE CONSTANTLY CLEANING IT, THEY WERE MAINTAINING IT.

I'VE HEARD SOME OF THOSE SAME STORIES, BUT THAT WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME.

THERE WERE NO MEALS SERVED WHEN I WAS THERE.

SO, LIKE I SAID, MY EXPERIENCE THERE WAS VERY GOOD.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE CITY, YOU KNOW, TO CONSIDER GOING BACK TO A KICK-OUT SCHEDULE.

>> Megan: WHY IS THAT?

>> Freeman: JUST BECAUSE I THINK THAT REALLY ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO, YOU KNOW, IMPROVE THEIR SITUATION.

TO SEEK RESOURCES LIKE HOPEWORKS OR HEADING HOME OR HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS OR FIRST NATIONS.

I THINK THAT CREATES, YOU KNOW, AN INCENTIVE.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN TOWN ANYWAY FOR 12 HOURS, LET'S FIND OUT HOW WE CAN IMPROVE OUR SITUATION.

I THINK CREATING THAT KICK-OUT WOULD BE A BENEFIT TO THE SYSTEM.

>> Megan: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE WORK THAT DAYMON ELY HAS BEEN DOING AND HIS RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY AROUND HOMELESSNESS?

DO YOU HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ON THOSE?

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

I READ MR. ELY'S REPORT FROM LAST YEAR.

AND I'VE READ HIS CURRENT REPORT THAT WAS JUST RELEASED OVER THE WEEKEND.

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF IT.

I WOULD SAY 80%.

I SEE WHERE HE'S COMING FROM.

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH IT.

PROBABLY THE BIGGEST AREA OF DISAGREEMENT IS OVER THIS IDEA OF TRACKING THE HOMELESS.

TRACKING OUTCOMES.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT CLIENTS ARE GOING TO BE FORCED TO CONSENT TO GIVING UP PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY IS A MISTAKE.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, HE PUTS IN THERE THAT OH, YEAH, GETTING AROUND HIPAA IS NOT A HARD THING TO DO.

I THINK HIPAA EXISTS FOR A REASON.

>> Megan: THIS IS THE FEDERAL HEALTH CARE ACT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO ENSURE CONFIDENTIALITY.

>> Freeman: EXACTLY.

I SEE WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO WITH -- WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE USING OUR MONEY AND RESOURCES IN THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE IN PROGRAMS THAT WORK.

IN PROGRAMS, YOU KNOW, THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL.

I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT PART.

BUT I THINK WE NEED TO KEEP IT ANONYMOUS.

I THINK THE IDEA THAT SOMEBODY'S BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION IS GOING TO BE STORED IN A DATABASE JUST BECAUSE THEY RECEIVE EBT OR FOOD STAMPS OR HOUSING VOUCHER, THAT THEY SHOULD BE TRACKED, I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

>> Megan: TALK MORE ABOUT THAT AND HOW, PERHAPS, THAT MIGHT PRESENT A BARRIER TO PEOPLE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF WHAT RESOURCES THERE ARE.

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

I FEEL THAT'S A HUGE BARRIER.

I MET MANY PEOPLE ON THE STREET.

JUST THE IDEA OF GIVING YOUR NAME, JUST THE IDEA OF SAYING WHERE YOU'RE FROM -- OKAY, WELL NEVER MIND.

I DON'T WANTED ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS BECAUSE I HAVE DO GIVE MY NAME, I THINK, WOULD PRESENT A MAJOR BARRIER.

IT DOES PRESENT A MAJOR BARRIER.

ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S SOMETHING PEOPLE FEAR?

TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> Freeman: I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO LIKE A PARANOIA.

I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T WANT THEIR FAMILY AND FRIENDS FROM WHERE THEY ARE TO KNOW ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

I THINK IT'S A PRIDE THING.

I THINK IT'S -- THIS IS ALL MY OPINION, OF COURSE.

BUT I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT FACTORS, AND I DEFINITELY -- I'M AN OPEN BOOK.

I'M HERE ON TV.

SO, THAT'S NOT A BARRIER FOR ME, BUT I DEFINITELY UNDERSTAND WHY THAT'S A BARRIER FOR LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND, SO, EVERYTHING WE SHOULD -- EVERYTHING WE DO SHOULD BE ABOUT TEARING DOWN BARRIERS.

I THINK ANYTHING THAT PRESENTS ANOTHER BARRIER -- I PARTICIPATED IN THE PIT COUNT WITH THE NEW MEXICO COALITION.

>> Megan: THE POINT IN TIME COUNT?

>> Freeman: YES.

>> Megan: THEY DO IT EVERY YEAR.

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

I WAS A TEAM LEAD ON THAT IN FEBRUARY.

AND WE'RE JUST COLLECTING BASIC DATA, LIKE THE FIRST TWO LETTERS OF YOUR FIRST NAME, MIDDLE NAME, LAST NAME, MONTH AND YEAR OF BIRTH, WHERE YOU'RE FROM.

AND SOME OF THAT WAS A BARRIER, FROM MY EXPERIENCE.

SO THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET EVEN MORE DATA OR WE'RE GOING TO EXPECT MORE DATA TO COLLECT GIVE OUT RESOURCES I THINK IS HUGE PROBLEM.

>> Megan: DOES THIS GO BACK TO SOME OF THE EARLIER CONVERSATION AROUND TRAUMA AND TRUST?

>> Freeman: ABSOLUTELY.

>> Megan: OKAY.

YOU NOW HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE.

YOU ARE IN GRADUATE SCHOOL.

AND YOU'RE HOUSED AND YOU'RE WORKING AT HOPEWORKS.

WHAT HELPED YOU MAKE THE TRANSITION TO HAVING HOUSING AND HAVING MORE SECURITY?

>> Freeman: I THINK, FOR ME, IT'S JUST SO IMPORTANT.

I DECIDED BEING HOMELESS, BEING UNSHELTERED WAS SO BAD, WAS SO PAINFUL.

I DIDN'T SUFFER FROM SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER.

I DIDN'T SUFFER FROM SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS.

AND IT WAS JUST SO PAINFUL, JUST BEING OUTSIDE, FEELING LIKE I LOST EVERYTHING.

FEELING LIKE I WASN'T CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY.

SO I'VE NEVER TOLD -- I MADE A DEAL WITH GOD.

I TOLD GOD, I SAID, IF YOU HELP ME GET THROUGH THIS, I WILL DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO GIVE BACK AND HELP OTHERS.

AND I HOPE I'VE KEPT UP WITH THAT.

SO, THAT'S THE WAY I LIVE EVERY DAY IS THIS SITUATION IS SO DIRE.

BEING OUTSIDE, BEING UNSHELTERED, IS SO BAD THAT WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN DO HELP THESE PEOPLE.

AND I TRY TO LIVE THAT EVERY DAY.

>> Megan: YOU WERE GOING TO HOPEWORKS EVERY DAY.

YOU CAN GET FOOD.

YOU CAN CHARGE YOUR PHONE, WHATEVER.

WHAT WAS THE TRIGGER THAT MADE YOU TAKE THAT NEXT STEP INTO THE OTHER SERVICES THEY OFFER TO GET YOU HOUSING?

>> Freeman: THAT'S SUCH A GREAT QUESTION, MEGAN.

I ACTUALLY SAT IN THE SHELTER AND STARED AT THE WALL FOR SIX MONTHS.

AND I WAS JUST -- WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO TAKE THAT NEXT STEP.

AND THEY WOULD PLAY THESE ANNOUNCEMENTS EVERY DAY AT ABOUT 8:00 A.M. GO UPSTAIRS AND TALK TO SO-AND-SO TO DO AN ASSESSMENT TO GET HELP.

FOR SIX MONTHS I THOUGHT THAT'S NOT FOR ME.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO HELP ME.

AND FINALLY ONE DAY A LIGHTBULB WENT OFF OVER MY HEAD AND I WAS LIKE I'M GOING TO GO UPSTAIRS AND DO THAT.

AFTER I WENT UPSTAIRS, I DID THE ASSESSMENT, AND ABOUT SIX WEEKS LATER I WAS ASSIGNED A CASEWORKER.

I WAS ASSIGNED A THERAPIST.

I WAS ASSIGNED A NURSE PRACTITIONER.

AND EVERYTHING JUST KIND OF CLICKED ALONG.

AND ABOUT SIX TO NINE MONTHS LATER I RECEIVED A HOUSING VOUCHER.

AND THAT JUST -- THAT WAS THE PIVOTAL MOMENT IN MY LIFE THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING WAS RECEIVING THAT CITY HOUSING VOUCHER ADMINISTERED BY HOPEWORKS.

>> Megan: WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN THROUGH THIS NEED TO KNOW WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER FOLKS WHO ARE UNHOUSED OR PRECARIOUSLY HOUSED?

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE THEM TO KNOW?

>> Freeman: I WOULD JUST LIKE THEM TO KNOW THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT DIFFERENT FROM YOU.

SO MANY PEOPLE LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK, OR TWO PAYCHECKS AWAY FROM BEING PRECARIOUSLY HOUSED.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT FAMILY SUPPORT, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT ACCESS TO RESOURCES, THAT'S WHERE SO MANY PEOPLE FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS.

I DON'T THINK -- WE'RE GOING THROUGH A VERY SERIOUS FENTANYL CRISIS RIGHT NOW IN ALBUQUERQUE AND NATIONWIDE.

AND THE DAYMON ELY REPORT, HE WANTS TO CORRELATE THE FENTANYL CRISIS TO HOMELESSNESS.

I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

I SAY, NOBODY WAKES UP ONE DAY AND SAYS I WANT TO START USING FENTANYL, I WANT TO DESTROY MY SITUATION, I WANT TO DESTROY MY LIFE.

THAT'S JUST -- FENTANYL IS A SIDE-EFFECT OF THE MISERY AND THE HORROR OF BEING HOMELESS OR LOSING HOPE OR IN DESPERATION.

SO, I REALLY WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO TRY TO RELATE TO THE PEOPLE AND THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT THAT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN YOU.

>> Megan: THERE'S A LOT OF DEBATE, AS YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW HERE AND AROUND THE COUNTRY ABOUT HOW TO ADDRESS THE RISING NUMBERS OF UNSHELTERED PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT CLEAR HOW OFTEN POLICYMAKERS LISTEN TO PEOPLE WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE LIKE YOU.

WHAT ARE THEY MISSING BY NOT HEARING FROM THOSE FOLKS LIKE YOU, FROM THOSE VOICES?

>> Freeman: I DO THINK IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM THAT LIVED EXPERIENCE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE A BIGGER VOICE.

AND I CONSTANTLY TRY TO SPEAK UP AND HOPEWORKS HAS A CLIENT ADVISORY BOARD THAT I'M ON.

>> Megan: SO THE PROVIDERS ARE HEARING FROM FOLKS?

>> Freeman: YEAH, AND I THINK IT'S GETTING BETTER.

I THINK THAT WE'RE SPEAKING UP.

OUR VOICE IS GETTING LOUDER.

ABSOLUTELY, NOT HAVING THAT PERSPECTIVE, MR. ELY DID NOT CONSULT WITH ME.

TO MY KNOWLEDGE, DID NOT CONSULT WITH EVERYBODY WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE.

I THINK THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.

I THINK THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE SHOULD LOOK INTO FORMING A LIVED EXPERIENCE COMMITTEE.

I DID HAVE A CONVERSATION.

I HAD A KIND RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FCS DIRECTOR, TRIPLE-H DIRECTOR CAROL PIERCE, AND WE TALKED ABOUT FORMING A LIVED EXPERIENCE COMMITTEE.

SHE RETIRED IN DECEMBER, OF COURSE.

>> Megan: SHE WORKED IN THE CITY HOUSING DEPARTMENT.

>> Freeman: SHE WAS THE DIRECTOR.

SO, I WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THAT CONVERSATION.

I THINK I HAVE A KIND RELATIONSHIP WITH SOME OF THE CITY COUNCILORS.

I'VE HOSTED SOME OF THEM AT HOPEWORKS.

I WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TO BUILD ON THAT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO BUILD THE LEVEL OF RESPECT, YOU KNOW, NECESSARY.

BECAUSE OF THE STIGMA.

I THINK A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE STIGMA THAT EVERYBODY ON THE STREET IS SEVERELY MENTALLY DISABLED OR SEVERELY ADDICTED TO SUBSTANCES.

I TRY TO QUASH THAT AS OFTEN AS I CAN BECAUSE THAT'S NOT TRUE.

>> Megan: I KNOW SANTA FE HAS A LIVED EXPERIENCE COUNCIL, YES?

>> Freeman: RIGHT.

I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET WITH THEIR GROUP AT THE -- IN OCTOBER, NEW MEXICO COALITION TO END HOMELESSNESS HAD THEIR HOUSING FOR ALL CONFERENCE AND I WAS A SPEAKER-PRESENTER AT THAT.

I WAS ABLE TO MEET WITH THEIR GROUP.

I THINK THEY'RE DOING AMAZING WORK IN SANTA FE.

AND THEIR COUNCILORS TAKE THEIR INPUT.

THEY GO ON OUTINGS.

THEY WENT AND VISITED THE SAFE OUTDOOR SPACE IN THE DENVER AREA AND WERE ABLE TO OBSERVE THAT AND GIVE THE FEEDBACK TO THE SANTA FE CITY COUNCIL.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY IMPACTFUL AND JUST A GREAT GROUP OF FOLKS.

I WAS REALLY BLESSED TO MEET THEM.

>> Megan: JAMES, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING HERE AND TALKING ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES AND YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW WE CAN ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

I REALLY THANK YOU FOR COMING ON.

>> Freeman: THANK YOU SO MUCH, MEGAN, FOR HAVING ME.

>> Camp: FOR ME, POETRY MATTERS.

AS A WRITER, AS A POET, IT GIVES ME A WAY TO NOTICE SOMETHING PARTICULAR INSTEAD OF THE VAST SCOPE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING.

BECAUSE I CAN'T TAKE IT IN.

BUT THEN POETRY AS A WHOLE, AS A READER, OR FOR READERS, IS A WAY TO BUILD EMPATHY AND A WAY TO BUILD THE HUMAN.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO MEGAN KAMERICK AND TO JAMES FREEMAN FOR THAT INTERVIEW.

LAURA'S CONVERSATION WITH NEW MEXICO POET LAUREATE LAUREN CAMP IS COMING UP IN A LITTLE OVER FIVE MINUTES.

IN THE SUMMER OF 2022, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 40 YEARS, A LONG STRETCH OF THE RIO GRANDE IN ALBUQUERQUE RAN DRY.

IT WAS SOMETHING WE'LL LIKELY SEE MORE OFTEN IN THE COMING YEARS AS THE REGION CONTINUES TO HEAT UP AND DRY OUT.

WHILE WE HATE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN, THERE'S NOTHING IN STATE LAW TO PREVENT THE RIO GRANDE FROM DRYING AGAIN, OR TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM USING EVERY LAST DROP OF WATER IN THE REST OF OUR STATE'S RIVERS.

IN THIS SEGMENT THAT FIRST AIRED IN 2022 WHEN THE RIVER DRIED, OUR LAND'S SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS WENT TO THE RIO GRANDE TO EXPLORE THAT ISSUE WITH AUDUBON SOUTHWEST'S PAUL TASHJIAN.

>> Laura: FOR DECADES, THE RIO GRANDE DOWNSTREAM OF ALBUQUERQUE HAS DRIED DURING IRRIGATION SEASON.

NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO THAT.

BUT, THIS SUMMER IN JULY, THE DRYING MARCHED UPSTREAM INTO ALBUQUERQUE.

AND PEOPLE NOTICED.

WHAT MOST PEOPLE PROBABLY DON'T REALIZE IS RIVERS IN NEW MEXICO DON'T HAVE RIGHTS TO THEIR OWN WATERS SO THE WATER YOU SEE FLOWING PAST IT IS ALL MEANT FOR SOMEONE ELSE DOWNSTREAM.

AND SOMETIMES WHAT THAT MEANS IS THERE IS NOT ENOUGH WATER LEFT FOR THE RIVER ITSELF AND THE SPECIES THAT RELY UPON IT.

PAUL TASHJIAN IS DIRECTOR OF FRESH WATER CONSERVATION FOR AUDUBON SOUTHWEST.

KEEPING WATER IN RIVERS IS SOMETHING HE THINKS ABOUT A LOT.

>> Tashjian: IN NEW MEXICO LIKE MANY WESTERN STATES, THERE ARE NO INHERENT RIGHTS OR CLAIMS THAT RIVERS HAVE ON THEIR WATER.

WATER IN NEW MEXICO IS MANAGED ON WHAT IS CALLED THE PRIORITY ADMINISTRATION SYSTEM AND THIS IS LIKE MOST OTHER WESTERN STATES MANAGED ON A SIMILAR SYSTEM.

IT IS A SYSTEM OF EXTRACTION.

IT IS A WINNER-TAKE-ALL KIND OF SYSTEM AND HOW IT WORKS IS THAT PERMITS ARE ISSUED FOR WATER RIGHT USERS UNTIL THERE IS NO WATER LEFT.

>> Laura: IN NEW MEXICO WHEN DRY TIMES STRIKE, PEOPLE WITH THE OLDEST WATER RIGHTS, SENIOR WATER RIGHTS, GET WATER FIRST.

AND UNLESS PEOPLE DECIDE TO SHARE SHORTAGES, JUNIOR OR NEWER WATER RIGHTS CAN GET CUT.

THE OLDEST USERS, THE RIVERS THEMSELVES, THEIR ECOSYSTEMS, THEIR WILDLIFE, THEY CAN BE LEFT WITH NOTHING.

>> Tashjian: THESE WATER RIGHT PERMITS WERE ISSUED DURING WETTER TIMES UNDER THIS MODEL OF PRIOR APPROPRIATIONS WHERE THERE ARE MORE WATER RIGHT PERMITS THAN THERE IS WATER IN THE SYSTEM.

THAT WAS BEFORE WE REALLY STARTED TO SEE THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> Laura: IT IS CLEAR DRY RIVERBEDS ARE BAD FOR FISH, COTTONWOODS FORESTS, ALL THE SPECIES INCLUDING HUMANS WHO RELY ON THEM.

>> Tashjian: DRY RIVERS ARE NOT GOOD FOR WATER MANAGEMENT ITSELF.

JUST TO MOVE WATER DOWN TO FARMERS DOWNSTREAM OR BE MOVING WATER FOR DELIVERING IT TO OUR NEIGHBORING STATES LIKE TEXAS, HAVING A DRY RIVER IS NOT AN EFFICIENT WAY OR EFFECTIVE WAY TO MOVE WATER.

ACROSS THE BOARD, DRY RIVERS ARE DETRIMENTAL.

>> Laura: THERE ARE WAYS TO CHANGE THIS.

>> Tashjian: NEW MEXICO HAS DEVELOPED TOOLS TO KEEP WATER IN THE RIVERS WITHIN THE WATER RIGHTS SYSTEM AND I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

I CRITICIZE THE PRIORITY ADMINISTRATION SYSTEM BUT TO DISMANTLE IT ISN'T FEASIBLE.

>> Laura: WE HAVE THE STRATEGIC WATER RESERVE USED TO KEEP WATER IN RIVERS FOR RARE ANIMALS PROTECTED UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT.

FISH LIKE THE RIO GRANDE SILVERY MINNOW, THE PECOS BLUNT-NOSE SHINER AND THE PIKE MINNOW IN THE SAN JUAN RIVER.

TO HELP THOSE SPECIES, THE STATE CAN LEASE WATER FROM WILLING FARMERS.

>> Tashjian: ANOTHER TOOL IS THIS THING CALLED DYNAMIC WATER LEASING.

IT IS SORT OF A NEWER TOOL DEVELOPED BY IRRIGATION DISTRICTS, ONE WHERE IRRIGATION DISTRICTS THEMSELVES ARE LEASING WATER FROM WILLING LESSEES AND PUT INTO A SIMILAR KIND OF BANK AND STORED AND USED FOR ENVIRONMENTAL PURPOSES.

>> Laura: BUT THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO DO.

>> Tashjian: WE ARE THE ONLY WESTERN STATE THAT DOESN'T HAVE AN ENVIRONMENTAL FLOW PROGRAM AND IT HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT AN ENVIRONMENTAL FLOW PROGRAM DOES IS IT USES THE TOOLS THAT ARE TALKED ABOUT, OTHER TOOLS LOCALLY TO TRY TO FIND CREATIVE SOLUTIONS AND IT REALLY SHIFTS THE GAME, SHIFTS IT FROM ONE WHERE YOU'RE MANAGING FOR ENDANGERED SPECIES AND IT IS OUT OF FEAR OF LITIGATION.

IT LEADS TO KIND OF EDGY MANAGEMENT AND I HAVE SEEN IT.

BUT IF YOU SHIFT IT TO WHAT DO LOCAL COMMUNITIES WANT?

WHAT IS IMPORTANT?

WHAT TOOLS WORK IN THAT LOCAL COMMUNITY.

IT IS A MUCH DIFFERENT WAY OF MANAGING A SYSTEM.

I THINK THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

ENDANGERED SPECIES ARE CRITICAL AND IMPORTANT, BUT WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH ENDANGERED SPECIES, YOU'RE ALREADY AT A CRISIS POINT.

>> Laura: ONCE THE RIVER DRIES AND DRIES THE NEXT YEAR AND DRIES AGAIN, WE GET USED TO THAT.

WE ACCEPT DRY OR BROKEN RIVERS AS NORMAL.

WE EVEN STOP REMEMBERING, STOP TELLING STORIES ABOUT WHAT A LIVING RIVER WAS LIKE.

>> Tashjian: EL PASO IS PRETTY REMARKABLE IF YOU HAVE EVER BEEN DOWN THERE.

IT IS BASICALLY A LARGE CONCRETE CHANNEL, WITH MAYBE A THREAD OF LEFT-OVER SEWAGE WATER OR SOMETHING RUNNING IN IT.

IT IS REALLY DEGRADING AND NO CORRIDOR OF TREES AROUND IT.

IT IS JUST A FUTURISTIC, CONCRETE, POST-APOCALYPSE DITCH.

VERSUS HERE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A CORRIDOR OF COTTONWOOD AND WILLOW TREES AND GRASSLAND AND A FLOWING RIVER.

IT IS QUITE DIFFERENT.

IT'S HARD TO GO BACK.

YOU CAN'T SORT OF GO BACK TO -- A PLACE LIKE EL PASO, YOU CAN'T ALL OF A SUDDEN RESTORE THAT RIVER DOWN THERE.

ONCE IT IS GONE, IT IS GONE.

>> Laura: IN NEW MEXICO OUR RIVERS HAVE TAKEN CARE OF US FOR CENTURIES, FOREVER AND IF WE WANT TO KEEP THEM, IT IS TIME FOR US TO BE GIVING BACK.

FOR OUR LAND AND NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, I AM LAURA PASKUS.

>> Jeff: AT THE END OF EVERY YEAR, WE ALL HAVE A TENDENCY TO REFLECT AND TO LOOK AHEAD.

IT CAN BE AN OVERWHELMING ENDEAVOR ANY YEAR, BUT AFTER AN ELECTION THAT'S BROUGHT NATIONAL, POLITICAL AND SOCIAL UPHEAVAL THE OUTLOOK FOR 2025 IS ESPECIALLY UNCERTAIN.

IN AN INTERVIEW THAT FIRST AIRED LAST DECEMBER, NEW MEXICO POET LAUREATE LAUREN CAMP STOPPED BY THE STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT POETRY FOR A WORLD IN CRISIS.

HOW IT CAN TEACH US TO BE PATIENT AND TO SLOW DOWN WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE IS MOVING FASTER ALL THE TIME.

>> Laura: LAUREN CAMP, NEW MEXICO POET LAUREATE, WELCOME.

>> Camp: THANK YOU.

IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

IT IS ALWAYS SO SWEET TO HAVE A POET IN THE STUDIO.

SO THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

SO, YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT, 'WORN SMOOTH BETWEEN DEVOURINGS.'

WHAT CHARACTERIZES THIS COLLECTION FROM MAYBE YOUR PAST BOOKS?

>> Camp: I THINK OF THIS BOOK AS VERY MUCH A LOVE LETTER TO NEW MEXICO, WHICH ISN'T REALLY DIFFERENT FROM MY OTHER BOOKS, BECAUSE I'M VERY MUCH IN LOVE WITH NEW MEXICO.

BUT THIS HAS POEMS BOTH ABOUT, LIKE, THE WONDER, THE AWE OF NEW MEXICO, AND WITNESSING.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF ENVIRONMENTAL ATTENTION HERE, A LOT OF ATTENTION TO THE BIOSPHERE, TO THE FIRES, TO THE INTENSE HEAT, INTENSIFYING HEAT, AND THE DROUGHT.

SO IT'S A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

>> Laura: SO, ONE OF YOUR POEMS IS CALLED, 'I'M ALWAYS NOW STUDYING THE URGENCY.'

AND I'D REALLY LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THAT POEM SPECIFICALLY, AND WHAT YOU'RE WITNESSING AND EXPRESSING THROUGH THE WORDS OF THAT POEM.

>> Camp: SO IT'S THE LONG POEM THAT BASICALLY ANCHORS THE COLLECTION.

IT COMES ABOUT TWO-THIRDS OF THE WAY THROUGH.

AND IT WAS MY WAY OF, I GUESS, OF HAVING SOME KIND OF AGENCY OR SOME KIND OF ACTION AS I WAS WATCHING ALL THE FIRES THAT WERE CONSISTENTLY, YEAR AFTER YEAR, GROWING AND COMING ACROSS NEW MEXICO.

AND SO SHAPING THAT POEM, WRITING THE POEM, WITH ITS REPETITIONS AND ITS INCREASING SONNETS AND EVERYTHING GAVE ME A CHANCE BOTH TO SHAPE IT, TO PLAY IN THE LANGUAGE OF IT, AND TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE GRIEF OF IT.

>> Laura: LIKE YOU MENTIONED, IT IS A LONG POEM, BUT I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD READ A BIT ON PAGE 49.

>> Camp: SURE.

>> Laura: STARTING WITH: "WE MOVED HERE TO A LAND WROUGHT TO HURTS."

STARTING THERE AND READING THAT STANZA.

>> Camp: ABSOLUTELY.

"WE MOVED HERE TO A LAND WROUGHT TO HURTS.

INSIDE THE WARPED FOREST, I TOOK ONE PICTURE OF WORSHIP, ONE PICTURE OF THE BRINK, ONE PICTURE TO PICTURE IT UNTUCKED IN LONG SPASM, SHINY VEHEMENTS.

THIS WASN'T A PILGRIMAGE, BUT A WAY TO REMEMBER CONDUCTIVE PULSES, READ SCARS, AND RECURRENCE."

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

I THINK ANYONE IN NEW MEXICO CAN JUST REALLY RESONATE WITH THOSE WORDS, THE SCARS, THE RECURRENCE, THE FIRES OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

SO THANK YOU FOR READING THAT BIT.

I ALSO WANTED TO JUST TALK BRIEFLY ABOUT THIS NEW PUBLICATION OUT.

CAN YOU TALK A BIT ABOUT THIS, WHERE IT COMES OUT OF, WHAT IT'S A PART OF, WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET IT?

>> Camp: SURE.

IT'S A COLORING BOOK AND ACTIVITY KIT.

IT'S COMING OUT OF THE NEW MEXICO STATE LIBRARY AND NEW MEXICO ARTS, WHICH ARE THE TWO ORGANIZATIONS THAT HANDLE THE NEW MEXICO POET LAUREATE POSITION.

I WORKED OVER THE PAST 14 OR 15 MONTHS WITH DEPARTMENT OF CULTURAL AFFAIRS EDUCATORS FROM AROUND THE STATE TO BUILD THIS BOOK.

THEY ASKED FOR A HANDFUL OF POEMS FROM ME.

SO THERE ARE FIVE POEMS IN THE BOOK, AND THEY BUILT -- THE BOOK IS CALLED 'IMAGINE NATURE,' AND THEY BUILT IT AROUND THOSE POEMS.

I WROTE PROMPTS, AS WELL.

AND IT IS INTENDED FOR THE YOUTH OF NEW MEXICO AROUND THE STATE.

IT'S TO INCREASE LITERACY AND ENGAGEMENT, CREATIVITY.

IT'S FOR THE KIDS AND THEIR PARENTS OR CAREGIVERS.

AND IT SHOULD BE -- I'VE BEEN TOLD I WILL FIND IT EVERYWHERE AROUND THE STATE, SO I WOULD GUESS YOU WOULD, TOO.

>> Laura: SO YOU ARE NEW MEXICO'S POET LAUREATE AND ALSO AN ACADEMY OF AMERICAN POETS LAUREATE FELLOW.

SO CONGRATULATIONS.

>> Camp: THANK YOU.

>> Laura: AS PART OF THAT, YOU WERE AWARDED $50,000.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE PROGRAM THAT YOU HAVE SET UP AND ARE WORKING ON?

>> Camp: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

THE FELLOWSHIP FROM THE ACADEMY OF AMERICAN POETS IS FOR A PROJECT I PROPOSED, WHICH IS FOR ME TO TRAVEL AROUND THE STATE IN CONJUNCTION WITH NEW MEXICO ARTS HOSTING AND HOLDING EPIC POEM WORKSHOPS, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

SO LIKELY DOING A READING AND A CONVERSATION AROUND POETRY, BUT THEN SORT OF GRADUALLY MOVING PEOPLE TOWARD BEING ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE TO A POEM.

NOT WRITE A POEM, NECESSARILY, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES THE AUDIENCE I'M EITHER DEALING WITH, OR WANT TO BE DEALING WITH, ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW WHAT POEM IS, OR KNOW THAT A POEM COULD BE SOMETHING THAT THEY COULD WRITE OR THAT THEY COULD ENGAGE WITH.

SO I WANT TO SORT OF COMFORTABLY AND GRADUALLY BRING THEM INTO THE WORLD OF POETRY IN A VERY SAFE WAY.

BUT THE EPIC POEM WORKSHOPS ARE FABULOUS.

THEY ARE SO MUCH FUN.

I'VE DONE PROBABLY SIX OR SO, SIX OR EIGHT SO FAR, IN VARIOUS RURAL AND UNDERSERVED PLACES AROUND THE STATE SO FAR, AND THEY ARE DESIGNED TO GET COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO CONTRIBUTE COMMUNALLY TO A POEM ABOUT THEIR AREA.

AND SO THEN THE WORDS OF THE POEM WILL BE FROM THEM, I WILL BUILD THEM INTO A POEM, AND THE HISTORIC PALACE PRESS WILL MAKE THEM INTO GORGEOUS LETTER-PRESSED BROADSIDES THAT WILL THEN BE GIFTED BACK.

ONE WILL BE GIFTED BACK TO EACH COMMUNITY, AND PROBABLY WE'LL BUILD A EXHIBIT OR TWO THAT CAN TRAVEL AROUND THE STATE.

SO IT'S AN INCREDIBLE AND EXCITING PROJECT THAT INVOLVES A LOT OF COLLABORATION FROM A LOT OF PLACES.

>> Laura: AND HOW LONG IS THAT -- LIKE, WHEN DOES THAT GO THROUGH?

>> Camp: IT'S A YEAR.

THE ACADEMY FELLOWSHIP IS A YEAR.

THE PROJECT, ITSELF, WILL PROBABLY TAKE LONGER.

BUT I WILL GET THROUGH AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE WORKSHOPS IN THAT YEAR.

>> Laura: I LOVE IT.

SO THE WORLD IS AN OVERWHELMING PLACE, WHETHER YOU'RE WATCHING FIRES, WHETHER YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT BEING BOMBED, FINDING YOUR NEXT MEAL, WORRIED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND RISING SEA LEVELS.

EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT EXPERIENCING AN EMERGENCY, THE WORLD STILL FEELS REALLY OVERWHELMING.

AND I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, LIKE, WHY AND HOW POETRY MATTERS IN THIS WORLD THAT FEELS CONSTANTLY IN CRISIS.

>> Camp: YEAH, IT'S A WONDERFUL QUESTION.

FOR ME, POETRY MATTERS.

AS A WRITER, AS A POET, IT GIVES ME A WAY TO NOTICE SOMETHING PARTICULAR INSTEAD OF THE VAST SCOPE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING.

BECAUSE I CAN'T TAKE IT IN.

I'M A PRETTY SENSITIVE PERSON.

I CARE ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS, FROM THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE LAND.

AND SO FOR ME, IT'S A WAY TO NARROW IN, FOCUS IN ON SOMETHING.

BUT THEN POETRY AS A WHOLE, AS A READER, OR FOR READERS, IS A WAY TO BUILD EMPATHY AND A WAY TO BUILD THE HUMAN.

AND SO I THINK I GO LOOKING FOR POEMS THAT HOLD SOME OF THE EMOTION I'M FEELING.

OR PERHAPS SOMETHING THAT I NEED TO BE FEELING, EVEN.

YOU KNOW, IF I'M FEELING AN OVERWHELM FROM THE GRIEF OF THE WORLD, OR THE DANGERS OF THE WORLD, I MIGHT GO TOWARD POEMS THAT ARE ABOUT GRATITUDE, OR ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW, ABOUT JOY, EVEN.

SO I THINK EITHER WAY, FROM THE WRITING PERSPECTIVE OR THE READER PERSPECTIVE, IT'S A CHANCE TO BRING IT BACK TO THE PERSONAL, THE INDIVIDUAL, AND SOME KIND OF INTIMATE, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE KINDNESS ALMOST.

>> Laura: YEAH, I LIKE THAT.

WE ALL HAVE OUR POETS THAT WE ADMIRE AND POETS THAT WE LIKE TO READ OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BUT FOR ANYONE, WHETHER THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES A POET OR NOT, HOW DOES THE ACT OF CREATING A POEM OR SHARING A POEM YOU LOVE CHANGE SOMEONE'S PERSPECTIVE OR CHANGE THE WORLD?

>> Camp: FOR ME, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT POETRY TAUGHT ME, AND I'M NOT SURE THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION, BUT I FEEL LIKE IT'S SO RELEVANT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT POETRY TAUGHT ME WAS PATIENCE AND A SORT OF GENEROSITY TO MYSELF, I THINK.

NOT THAT I WAS NOT, NOT THAT I WAS PARTICULARLY HARD ON MYSELF.

I MEAN, I BEGAN CREATING THINGS, LITTLE ART PROJECTS AND WRITING THINGS, WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GIRL AND NOBODY PAID ANY ATTENTION TO THEM.

SO I WASN'T PARTICULARLY CHALLENGED ON WHETHER WHAT I DID WAS GOOD ENOUGH.

BUT POETRY, I THINK POETRY MORE THAN ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE I'VE DONE TAKES A KIND OF TIME, A KIND OF MARINATING TIME, OF SLOWING DOWN TIME.

SOME OF THE PROCESS OF CREATING IT IS WAITING.

SOME OF THE PROCESS OF CREATING IT IS LOOKING.

SOME OF THE PROCESS OF CREATING IT IS DOING NOTHING, NOTHING RELATED TO IT.

SO FOR ME, THAT'S A HUGE BENEFIT OF IT.

I MEAN, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A CULTURE THAT IS SLOW, EVER, ANYMORE, AND I KEEP HOLDING THIS SPACE OPEN FOR POETRY, FOR MYSELF AND TRYING TO DO IT FOR ANYONE ELSE.

I THINK POEMS TAKE TWO READINGS AT A MINIMUM, SO THAT YOU MAYBE READ THROUGH IT AND YOU GET ONE THING ON FIRST COMING UP TO IT, AND THEN ON SECOND READING YOU GET SOMETHING ELSE, YOU GET SOMETHING MORE.

IF YOU READ IT FIVE MONTHS FROM NOW, YOU GET SOMETHING PERHAPS TOTALLY DIFFERENT THAT YOU NEED.

>> Laura: WELL, LAUREN CAMP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE AND FOR HOLDING SPACE.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Camp: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: THANKS TO LAUREN CAMP AND LAURA PASKUS, AND THANKS TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THE SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.