- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum," from the classroom to the courtroom, and budget debates to disaster recovery delays, North Carolina is at a pivotal crossroads.

We're diving into what our communities must know about immigration enforcement in schools, the fate of federal funding post Hurricane Helene, and we're taking a look at what's behind the Trump administration's eye on Durham's Poly Murray historic site.

Coming up next, stay with us.

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[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to "Black Issues Forum."

I'm your host, Kenia Thompson.

Well, as we navigate a rapidly shifting political landscape, today, we are examining several issues shaping the future of North Carolina, from how our schools are navigating immigration enforcements to how federal funding is impacting Western North Carolina, and if our history is being preserved or politicized.

Joining me for the conversation are two familiar faces who have made advocacy and policy a priority.

I wanna welcome to the show North Carolina Senator Natalie Murdoch, representing District 20, and next to her is Jessica Holmes, attorney and former North Carolina state auditor.

Welcome to the show.

- Good to be here.

- Hey, thanks for having us.

- Of course.

Let's go ahead and jump off with immigration.

We've recently learned that Wake County has come out with guidelines to go by if ICE visits campus.

Let's take a step back and identify, who is ICE visiting on campus?

- Yes, luckily for us here in North Carolina, Mo Green is our new superintendent of public instruction, meaning that he has the ability to provide guidance and protocol for school systems across the state.

Since he was a former superintendent and he was really ahead of this, at the top of the year, anticipating that this was gonna happen due to new federal executive orders and policies, maybe even from the Department of Education, they really provided a framework as to how schools should work through this.

Having appoint people at the school in the event that ICE comes to the property so that they know what to do.

Because even if you're a visitor of a school, you can't just enter that property.

So there is a process in place, but it's not the job or the duty of the school to know the status of students or parents.

But what you're gonna see is those mixed-status families where the child was born here, and if their parents are undocumented, then the parents could risk their freedom simply by coming to pick their children up from school.

It's a big issue.

- Yeah, Jessica, when we look at legal ramifications of that, are there any?

Does the school have any legal protections?

Do the families have protection?

- Well, for starters, the Leandro case, Leandro versus the State of North Carolina, reaffirmed that in North Carolina, students are entitled to a sound basic education, and that is regardless of their immigration status.

So school districts are not allowed to ask or record whether or not a student is documented or undocumented.

That is something that is irrelevant when it comes to our school systems.

And the unfortunate reality is that there has never been a prohibition on ICE entering schools or churches, but the prohibition was more of a moral one, based on principles of humanity.

So in opening the floodgates to ICE enforcement in churches and in our schools is us abandoning those traditional principles of morality and humanity.

- When we think about the guidance that's been issued.

Wake County I guess has let that off, but we could probably expect to see that happening in rural spaces where we may see more undocumented populations there.

What's included in that guidance?

What's does that look like?

- You really hit the nail on the head.

You will not see uniformity across the state, you really will if you are a student or a family be at the mercy of your local school system.

You'll have systems like Wake County and others that I think will do the best they can to protect all of their students, but it won't be a guarantee that you'll see that across the state because it really should be about that child getting the education and those parents shouldn't be fearful of entering these schools when the children are simply here.

They just wanna learn, they just wanna get an education that is a great equalizer.

That's why the right to a sound basic education is in our state constitution.

But you definitely, we've seen it in other states so we know it's only a matter of time when you'll see more folks being targeted here in North Carolina, really it's a lack of resources.

A big part of the federal budget that they're trying to push out will provide more ICE agents to engage in this, but in the meantime they're also putting more pressure on sheriffs' departments trying to force sheriffs through state law to act as federal agents as well.

- Oh, wow.

Okay, we'll keep an eye out on that to see if any other school departments come out with guidance for those counties as well.

Let's move onto Hurricane Helene.

It's been about six months since the devastation in western North Carolina and we've seen a lot of work happen, but we've also seen that there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.

Recently, federal funding was pulled as far as government buildings, reconstructing roads and all of that share with us, well, I'll identify some towns Canton, Buncombe County and that's kind of that Asheville central area.

What does that look like for funding being pulled and this recovery efforts to continue?

- It's devastating, I mean this is the worst natural disaster we've seen here in North Carolina and this is a mountainous area they were never prepared to deal with this level of historic flooding.

- Yeah.

- I mean you have towns like Marshall that pretty much we're wiped off of the map completely so these are towns that do not have a lot of revenue to continue to keep things afloat without federal funding and it's not precedented when you had the accident at the bridge of Baltimore FEMA reimbursed or DOT at 100%, now they're saying there no longer going to completely reimburse the costs essentially, the local governments they pay for what they can knowing they're going to be reimbursed at the federal level so we really need the federal government to step up.

The vast majority of those western counties and towns have huge budget shortfalls that need to be filled, and they need to be filled by the federal government.

At the state level, we cannot afford to front the cost of that nor should we that is what the federal government is for, but the Trump administration has said that they want to completely eradicate the FEMA department and create some new block grant system that doesn't exist yet.

- Yeah.

- So we need use a system we have to provide relief to these small businesses, folks that don't have homes, lack of infrastructure, we need that federal support now.

- What does it look like at the legislative level for federal agencies to be held accountable to fill in these gaps?

Jessica, Ill give it to you.

- I think there's a reality that as we talk about historic flooding in western North Carolina that we be reminded of the people in eastern North Carolina that are still impacted by Hurricane Matthew and Hurricane Florence who have been out of their homes for several years and I'll summarize my thoughts on Helene by saying promises made, promises broken because this administration made promises to the people of western North Carolina that aid would be readily available and it's not.

In fact, to the contrary, about 20% of FEMA's permanent staff has been laid off.

And so- - And that's the direct reasoning for the federal budget cuts or funding cuts for recovery?

- Not only do you have an impact on the level of staff, but also the actual budget in terms of the monies that are needed to build roads and rebuild schools and help support our businesses.

- Yeah.

Well, I know that recently we just passed, what, $32.6 billion for our state budget.

So when we think about local responsibility for recovery efforts, is does that feed into our local responsibility?

And what's in the budget for that?

- Yeah, this is one of multiple packages we provided at the state level for disaster relief.

And so the initial Senate proposal that has still a long way to go and a lot of issues, but there is additional money for recovery.

And so as a whole, we'll be at around 65 billion for the biennium, but around 32 billion per year.

So you will see more support for recovery out west, but, again, it's not enough.

Even with our reserves and all the other funding we have on the table, this is why you have a federal government.

There are times where the federal government has a step up to the plate and this is one of them.

But there's still a lot of shortcomings.

And the Senate budget, most notably need to really do more for our educators and our teachers.

We're really gonna continue to lose them to other states, including South Carolina.

The raise proposed by the Senate was lower than what Governor Stein is proposing, does not keep up with inflation.

Other huge issues of just showing we've had years of divestment in education, in infrastructure, and it's because they are prioritizing tax breaks for the wealthy over supporting average everyday working people with their housing, with their transportation, with their healthcare.

- We finally expanded Medicaid.

Because of federal politics, we could potentially lose that.

Other states had reserves simply for their Medicaid.

They had trust funds so that in the event that federal funding was lost, they were prepared.

- Health and human services alone is 72% funded by the federal government.

So the theme of our budget is we shouldn't zero out corporate income tax through 2030, and these are businesses that can afford it.

Personal income tax, every time you have those half a percent decreases, that is $2 billion.

- Guess what... - $2 billion can do save Medicaid expansion.

This is true.

- So our priorities are not aligned with the needs of the people in North Carolina.

- Jessica, when we look at marginalized communities and their needs there, do you think the budget has space for that?

Because there's so much that we gotta take care of, it feels like.

- I think when you look across the board, there are significant and very important programs that are being cut.

I am a graduate of Head Start.

So before UNC at Chapel Hill, there were Pender County public schools and early childhood development programs like Headstart that are on the chopping block.

So we see cuts across the Department of Education, across health and human services, across FEMA.

These are very critical services that support not just people who are low income, but all facets of America.

- And with the anti-DEI sentiments you've seen at the federal level that is trickling down.

And here in North Carolina in our current Senate budget, everything diverse, everything equitable, environmental justice positions, all of that has been cut.

And in my five years in the Senate, I have never seen such an overt attack on everything that is diverse and minority than the current budget that is before us in this state.

Wow.

- And when we talk about cuts in terms of the environment and climate change, African Americans tend to be disproportionately impacted by things like asthma and environmental concerns about like safe drinking water.

- And when we take a look at that budget proposal, still hasn't officially been passed.

- Thank goodness.

- Still has to go through the House.

- The House will do what they do with it, then it will come back to the Senate and then there will be a conference committee where folks kind of hash things out.

But by and large, we would have more money if we were not continuing to aggressively cut personal income taxes and corporate income tax.

- About what time should we see an actual decision?

- I think a few months, I think a few months.

And to provide a little bit more kind of behind the scenes, look, this is not the final offer.

There is negotiation that occurs between the two chambers.

The Senate is always a little bit more conservative with their budget and the spending.

So there will be some back and forth.

I think the House will add a lot of things and maybe playing around with revenue projections and it's because federal funding is completely up in the air.

So I think the state wants to take more time to get a better feel, see what federal cuts we'll see.

So you may even see some temporary funding measures throughout the summer, it's possible.

- I think it's a very loaded question to ask when the North Carolina state budget will be passed because in the past, the timeline has just been all over the place.

- And I get it, it's a volatile time right now.

We don't know what's happening federally, so we kind of have to make concessions for things that need to be taken care of, IE Western North Carolina recovery efforts.

- It's gonna be a long summer.

- It is gonna be a long summer.

It's gonna be an interesting summer.

Let's talk about tariffs, that has been a buzz for the last few weeks.

So we've heard a lot of people up in arms about tariffs.

A recent article had came out from the assembly that reported actually that some American businesses were happy about tariffs because it was reducing competition.

So we've got some folks on one end that are kind of happy seeing where that could maybe elevate their business, but then we've got some folks that are still being impacted heavily.

And so share with us maybe some of the benefits if there are any of tariffs and then what people are experiencing too.

- Yes, I think the assembly article did talk with some folks in agricultural sector, particularly with fishing industry and shrimp.

We have a huge seafood economy here.

And so if you say you want to promote more domestic industry, that could be helpful to some industries in North Carolina.

But I definitely think by and large, when you look at the high point furniture market, when you look at agriculture as a whole, sweet potatoes, soybean, corn, a lot of that we trade with China, UK, even China.

So by and large, the agriculture industry has changed where they're really dependent on that global economy.

But tariffs make it that much more difficult to trade globally.

Even with other states like Kentucky and their bourbon, Canada said, we are no longer taking any US alcohol.

Kentucky depends on that revenue.

Here in North Carolina, agriculture is the top economic driver for us.

So we will have huge, huge impacts as a result of the tariffs.

And essentially China, the US and a number of countries were having a staring match and the US has blinked because China has more leverage.

They have been preparing for this since Trump 1.0.

We are not prepared for this.

I would love for us to have more domestically created goods, but that takes time, maybe even a decade because those jobs have been gone since the 90s.

We do have more advanced manufacturing, solar, clean energy economy.

We need to focus more on that.

But when CEOs met with Donald Trump and told him that their shells would be bare within four to five weeks, that got his attention so the US has blinks.

- There was a pause.

Jessica, what are your colleagues sharing and what is potentially the financial instability or risk that they're bracing for?

- I think the reality is that, with tariffs, there are winners and there are losers.

I believe there will be more losers in North Carolina than winners, although there are some industries that are thriving due to the lack of competition.

However, some of our largest agricultural resources, in terms of sweet potatoes and soybeans, for example, now, China is seeking the majority of its soybeans from Brazil, and so the reality is that our farmers are hurting now, and it's having an immediate impact on our agricultural system, and again, I think there'll be more losers than winners right here in North Carolina, particularly in the agricultural industry.

- And I think it's been a thing with this administration.

They kinda throw things out there, but the plan isn't there, so it's one thing to give lip service to something when you don't have a true plan as to how you're gonna implement any of this, and that's really what we're seeing in real time.

- And there does not seem to be a plan.

- There is no plan.

[laughs] There is not anything.

- No plan in place.

- Well, hopefully, there will be a pause in assessing what this impact really does to American business, to our financial landscape, and- - To the stock market.

- To the stock, and we've seen a big impact on the stock market, right?

- Yeah, I mean, at the rate we're going, if they do not pause these tariff policies, it will throw us into a recession.

Every economist is consistent in that analysis.

- Many people are afraid to look at their 401 accounts, their retirement accounts.

- Yeah.

If we get thrown into a recession again, I asked the question, is it gonna be like we felt in 2008 when we had the housing drop, is it gonna feel like the pandemic, or are we gonna kinda just push through?

I think people aren't ready to go into that kinda mindset again.

- They're not ready, but I think what would be unfortunate about it this time, it was completely manmade at the hands of one man, and so there are other times where there are global pressures that kinda lead us into the recession, but this one is just failed policies.

I mean, we had a very strong, booming economy at the top of the year, and it's gonna drive up inflation, so people, you need food, you need energy.

These aren't luxuries, these are things that people need to live and survive, and so to drive up those costs when their budgets are already really tight, it really will be working class people, the working poor, that will have the most to lose during the next recession.

- All right, well, let's talk about something that's, I mean, everything hits close to home, so I'm not gonna say that, but here in Durham specifically, the Trump administration has kind of targeted the, not kind of, they've targeted the Pauli Murray Center here.

It's a historic site that celebrates black queer legal and spiritual visionary Pauli Murray, and the center is standing to lose thousands of federal funding as the Trump administration is reshaping federal funding to historic sites, and I quote, the administration says that the center does not serve the interest of the United States.

So my first question was, when I asked this is, what's the interest of the United States, and how does this center, or any other historic center that's being looked at, not do that?

- I'll start with the quote that those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it, and while he classifies this as a reshaping of history, it's more of an erasing of history, and we've seen that from removing Harriet Tubman's page and information about the Underground Railroad, Tuskegee Airmen, and also the attacks on what we call the the Black Smithsonian, and the reality is, history is history.

Black history is American history, and his attempts to reshape or erase our history does not mean it doesn't exist.

- Right.

- What does removing funding do to a site like Pauli Murray's?

- I mean, it will have impacts that will last for years.

It's my understanding that for years these were federal funds that the Pauli Murray Center, a number of other museums, even down in Greensboro, the Civil Rights Museum finally received federal recognition.

I would imagine, you know, all federal historic landmarks are eligible for this funding for the Pauli Murray Center alone, that is $330,000.

Luckily here in North Carolina, myself and my other senate colleague that represents Durham, Senator Chitlik, we filed a bill to say that we want state funding for the Pauli Murray Center.

And it was in partnership with the state.

I do believe the first funding that was received just to preserve that land of her home site.

She was born right here in Durham and she's a national treasure.

So all of this is American history and if you don't preserve it, if you don't share that history, not only is it detrimental to all people, all students, this is a site that actually has global attention.

I mean they have had folks that have come from the Netherlands and the all sorts of areas, Australia, because she's a global treasure.

I mean, she was pen pals with First Lady Roosevelt.

She was the first Black woman to graduate from Yale with a PhD in law.

And there's a Hulu documentary about her.

So she is a national treasure, has a quarter that exists in her honor.

And so not only should the funding be restored, this pattern of erasing Black history, it is American history.

And it's just another trend of this administration.

And I would also say, just misdirected priorities.

You know, we should be focused on supporting people, helping them to get food on the table, helping them with rising transportation costs, and their insurance, and healthcare opposed to targeting Black history.

That's American history.

- Yeah, Jessica, I wanna ask the question, how do we legally protect these treasures around the country?

Not just here in North Carolina, but how do we legally protect these sites.

- Legally.

I'll start with the way that we in our communities can protect these sites.

And the federal government has the power of the purse and therefore they're able to withdraw funding.

But that said, if we in our communities raise revenue to make up for those cuts, and if we also at the state level allocate funds to make sure that we keep and preserve sites like the one in Durham, then, you know, I think that's our best avenue.

As of right now, I feel like our courts are clogged from immigration cases to education cases to federal worker cut.

And right now, I think the best avenue under this particular administration is community engagement and community fundraising, such that our dollars reflect our priorities.

- With that in mind, what can I do?

What can my friends do?

What can we do as community to help maintain these spaces?

- Make a contribution instead of your Starbucks budget, for example, or instead of getting that new pair of Jordan's actually making a contribution, actually just this year made my first contribution to public television.

Because I've never seen in my lifetime such an attack on information and institutions from public networks to colleges, Harvard, Columbia.

And so at some point we have to save ourselves because it does not seem that the federal government.

- It's going to be the floor or the foundation that we have been able to traditionally count on.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- Absolutely, yeah, I think these are times where we need to really lean in on all the work that Black philanthropic groups have been doing.

There has been a movement behind the scenes to say we should be more sustainable, you know, within our own communities.

And if you're not gonna receive the funding that you need federally, because with the African American Smithsonian, you did have a lot of groups step up.

You had Divine Nine.

I think the Boule alone maybe contributed $2 million to the Smithsonian since Philip Freelon was a member.

So I do think this is a time where those with disposable income, whether it's $5, whether it's 10, you could be a sustainer and give $10 a month.

So I do think this is a time where for us to be resilient, collectively, we're gonna have to look out for each other.

That includes with our pockets.

- And I think it's also important for us to stay informed, right?

We can't donate to spaces that we don't know need help.

And so the idea of really being in the know of what's happening around us, and not just here in North Carolina, but also how federal decisions impact us locally too is super important.

- And it makes all these spaces more sustainable if you have more of those private dollars and not completely being dependent on the federal government.

Now, they have every right to receive federal funding.

But under this administration, we know it's just gonna be a challenge.

It's not gonna change.

And we do need to be more resilient with our financial funding.

- Well, Senator Murdock, Jessica Holmes, thank you so much for the conversation today.

Hoping that we'll have you back again to talk about newer developments as we get closer to decisions being made across the state.

- Thank you.

- Sounds good.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsc.org/blackissuesforum.

And on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson, I'll see you next time.

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