- Up next, we've got a great episode of "American Black Journal."

We are having a post-election discussion for our "Black Church in Detroit" series.

Two Detroit pastors are here to talk about the voter turnout and the impact of Vice President Harris's loss on African-American women.

Plus, we're gonna examine where we go from here.

It's an important conversation that you don't wanna miss.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

- [Narrator] From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco.

Serving Michigan communities since 1929.

- [Narrator] Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [Narrator] DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Among the state's largest foundations committed to Michigan-focused giving, we support organizations that are doing exceptional work in our state.

Learn more at DTEFoundation.com.

- [Narrator] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm Stephen Henderson, your host.

Today, we're continuing our series on the "Black Church in Detroit," produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

Now that the election is over, Detroit pastors are answering questions from their congregants about "where do we go from here?"

How do we build community and heal the hurt that some people are feeling?

Here's my conversation with the new president of the seminary, Reverend Dr. Theodore Turman from First Baptist Church of Detroit, and Reverend Cindy Rudolph of Oak Grove AME Church.

I wanna start with this idea.

You know, politics has become too big, in my opinion.

And what I mean by that is that our political beliefs and expressions, what happens in our politics, is no longer just about politics.

It is bleeding over into all kinds of other things.

The relationships we have, the people we know.

In some cases, the relationships we have with members of our families.

I'm sure the two of you could tell lots of stories about politics interfering with religious activities and beliefs and congregations.

And, you know, it seems like at times like these, when you have an election that is very contentious and where people have lots of very strong feelings about it, we're reminded of how big politics has gotten, and the need to kind of roll that back.

I'm imagining that the role, one of the roles, that you two play is in trying to help people put that in better perspective.

So let's start there.

Just give us a sense of what the conversation is like in your congregations right now.

Reverend Rudolph, I'm gonna start with you.

- We are living in a time of tremendous division and discord.

At every turn, we see viciousness and vitriol.

Our nation is more divided now than I think I've ever seen it.

And this is something that is impacting our people each and every day.

What I am concerned about is when we think about the mental health of those that we serve.

So many of us two weeks ago woke up to sort of a dystopian reality that has caught us completely off guard, for some of us.

Some people were expecting it, but some were caught off guard.

People like me were very hopeful, and we are now dealing with how to move forward.

But in the midst of that, I'm very concerned, yet I am hopeful and I'm inspired to continue the work.

Because what I'm concerned about is the level of apathy.

We saw that only 47% of Detroiters voted.

That is disturbing beyond words.

And so I'm concerned about the apathy.

And I think part of what's fueling that is people are not really in tune with just how politics touches their everyday life.

Everything from whether or not your trash is picked up to, you know, your engagement with law enforcement, to the justice that you seek, all of those things and more.

The prices of gas and groceries.

All of those things are impacted by politics.

Whether or not, you know, your insurance is going to cover your illness, and whether or not your copay is going to be exorbitant.

All of those things and more are impacted by politics.

And so we really need to begin to focus more on teaching civics so that people have a greater understanding of just how politics impacts their daily living.

And I think we also need to do our part to uplift the spirit of the people that we serve, because we need to understand that even though there is cause for tremendous concern, because we are people of faith, we hope in God and we hope nonetheless for a greater future.

And we trust that God is going to shield and cover and protect and keep us, even in the midst of turmoil, viciousness, vitriol, division, discord, or anything else that we face.

- Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Turman, give me a sense of what you're feeling or hearing or picking up from your congregation now.

- First of all, I would say this is some extra heavy lifting.

I think one of my concerns is that I think African-American church leaders have not sufficiently come to terms, not just with how divided the culture is, but how divided our churches are, and how divided our individual churches are.

I think we are overestimating the feelings of our church members.

To be sure, some of them were disappointed, but the numbers bear out that there were others who were not disappointed.

Some of our African-American men were not disappointed.

Some of our African-American women were not disappointed.

And I think that we have to come to terms with sort of what some of our pulpit advocacy did not do.

That it has not necessarily persuaded/educated some of our congregants.

And we have to reckon with, how much influence do we still have from the pulpit?

We can certainly be congregational care providers, and I think that there is a lot of great work that is being done.

And a lot of good preaching has come out of the last two Sundays, as folks have tried to make sense and sort of put it in biblical terms.

But I think that some of us have not sufficiently spent time dealing with the number of our members who have voted for candidates that we did not expect on multiple occasions.

- Yeah.

So Dr. Turman, are you hearing from people in your congregation in that way?

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

- What are they saying to you?

- A couple of different things.

Number one, I hear it in silence.

Okay?

So it is not just what people say.

It is when people are quiet at the table that it lets you know.

Because in many ways, there has been a significant sense that if you don't say the right thing, okay, you are going to be ostracized.

Okay?

Or that there is no room for debate or even empathy for people who may have voted in ways that we did not want them to.

And so I hear it quietly in text messages.

I hear it quietly in the receiving line, when some people, again, men and women, who were prioritizing different things, who were responding to different commercials, were downplaying certain pieces of narrative while uplifting others, and have said things after Bible study to me.

I just want you to know this is what I did.

And I've heard from other pastors who have shared stories of relationships that are in distress because of, you know, divided voting in their home, let alone within the church.

- Yeah.

Reverend Rudolph, I wanna give you a chance to talk about what you're hearing specifically from people in your congregation and whether you're hearing that same thing, but also to talk more about, I guess, the pastoral role in trying to help people with that.

Again, politics doesn't really belong in the church, (laughs) but it's there.

So as a church leader, what do you do when these things are presented?

- So I am not hearing the same things that Dr. Turman is hearing.

No congregation, no church is a monolith.

However, there is a sameness and overall sentiment within my congregation.

As I said, we were very hopeful, and now we are dealing with the impact of what America has chosen to do, going forward.

So I'm not hearing the same things he's hearing.

I'm actually dealing with people who are devastated, disappointed.

- Afraid, maybe.

- Some people who are sort of withdrawing from the political process, and thinking, "You know, my vote will not make a difference because it didn't make a difference this time."

And, on the flip side, I'm also hearing people who are super engaged, and who have promised to do their part in trying to combat misinformation and disinformation, because that was a big part of this campaign cycle.

There was so much misinformation and disinformation online.

People deliberately posting things that were completely false.

And so many people took that and ran with it.

And that's one of the reasons why I think we really have to be intentional about teaching our young people critical thinking.

I don't think that we can depend on underfunded schools with overcrowded classrooms to teach our young people critical thinking.

That is something that is on us, and we have to take the responsibility to do that so that they can be able to discern misinformation, disinformation, and be able to know what the truth is.

Another thing that I think that we have to do going forward is inspire our people to be the change.

You know, I'm not seeing a level of tremendous apathy within our community, in terms of my congregational community, but there are people that we are connected to who are experiencing that apathy.

There are people that we are connected to in our own families who might have thought differently, voted differently, or things of that nature.

And those are issues that, you know, we'll try to touch on and deal with and recognize that we're not going to be able to have the same perspective as everyone around us.

Some people are going to differ.

But I think the onus is on the faith community to inspire people anew, to keep pressing, to keep doing the work, and not just in terms of how we move forward from here, but how we help our people heal.

- Yeah.

- I mentioned mental health earlier, and the reality is only about 25% of people in the black community seek mental health services.

At times like these, we really need to be pushing for mental wellness, pushing for people to go and talk to someone about what it is they're feeling and what it is that they're struggling through.

We can pray for you all day, but there is nothing wrong with you praying and being in counseling.

And I tell that to people all the time.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

You can have Jesus and a good therapist.

- (laughs) Right.

And most of us need it right now.

- Right.

- Dr. Turman, talk more about what it is you see as your role in, I guess, mitigating some of these tensions that you're seeing play out in your congregation.

What is that pastoral role when you have people who, as you say, don't feel comfortable saying what they believe, or don't feel comfortable talking about what they're doing?

You're supposed to be able to feel comfortable in a religious setting.

Everyone is supposed to be accepted.

What's your response to that when you see it?

- Sure.

Well, first of all, I would say that to acknowledge people who may have voted differently than I did is not to ignore the majority of my members who voted a certain way and feel a significant amount of pain, right?

And so it is really hard to talk with nuance about these things.

And so I don't lift them up as if to say they're a majority or anything like that.

I do notice who doesn't come to church during certain seasons, you know, during political seasons, who is a little bit more quiet, who is a little bit more reserved, because they kind of know my own personal sort of political leanings.

That being said, what do I think is sort of my role?

Certainly, to give context to what people are seeing.

To invite people into exploration and what God might be doing, not just in the culture, but through them, right?

I think when we're listening to some of these things that seem so much bigger than anything that we could personally fix, I try to sort of make the world just a little bit smaller and encourage people to believe that they can still be used by God in their corner of the world.

That God is still active, that God still cares, that God still works through flawed people, through people who vote differently from us.

That the imago dei is as much present in one party as it is in another.

And I think part of my responsibility is to find balance and saying things that I believe will provide comfort, but also to open people's eyes up to perhaps some things that they don't want to see but still need to see with regard to how God might be moving.

That's been my approach.

It was my approach in 2016, it was my approach in 2020, and to some degree, with some variance, it'll be my approach going forward as well.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

I do wanna spend the rest of the time talking about what's next.

You know, there's going to be a lot more news about politics in the next 6 to 12 weeks, and then who knows what happens after that?

What is the approach in your congregations to just helping people make sense of it?

You know, I find that the fear that a lot of people are feeling is so palpable.

And I don't know how you address that, but, of course, there's a really wide range of emotions.

Reverend Rudolph, what are you planning for the holiday season and, of course, everything beyond it?

- Well, thank goodness this is the time of year when we do a tremendous amount of outreach.

We try to do outreach all year long, but we really kick it up a notch during the holiday season.

And so our people are laser focused on outreach right now, lifting up the community surrounding us.

And so that has been invigorating for our people.

One of the things that I should have mentioned earlier is that, 'cause you asked about what people are feeling.

What I have observed is that this has been not only traumatic as a whole for the people that I serve, but I think those who have been impacted to a greater degree are black women.

Many people might not agree with this, but it's my personal opinion that racism and sexism had a lot to do with how some people voted.

And I think that when black women like me, particularly black women who are leaders, observed what happened in our nation, it was triggering for us, because it reminded us of the times when we have been excluded or dismissed solely on the basis of race, gender, or whatever the case may be.

And so I think black women are carrying this at a level that is even deeper.

And then when you think about the fact that, as black people, we have a higher baseline in terms of trauma because of the fact that we've been historically oppressed people.

And so when we experience a new trauma, it is triggering for us because we carry the trauma that we have inherited from those who endured slavery and Jim Crow and lynchings and bombings, et cetera, et cetera.

And so with that said, I think it's been hurtful.

However, even though it's been hurtful, we are people of faith.

We are people who trust in God.

We are people who understand that God's will does not always line up with the free will of people.

God gives us the ability to choose, and not everyone is going to choose in a way that lines up with God's will.

That's something that I talked about the weekend after the election, God's will versus free will.

And so we have to not only embrace where we are now, but trust God that he's going to sustain us, even in the midst of all that we face.

We are people who have endured and people who have survived in spite of what we face, and we're trusting that God will continue to sustain us in the future.

- Dr. Turman and Reverend Rudolph, great to have both of you here, and, of course, love the work that you are doing to help your congregants figure out how to make sense of all the politics around us.

Thanks for being here on "American Black Journal."

- Thank you, Stephen.

- Thank you.

- Finally today, we wanna congratulate Church of the Messiah for 150 years serving our community.

Senior Pastor Barry Randolph is a member of our Black Church in Detroit Advisory Panel.

And our cameras were at the church's anniversary celebration.

- For this 150th anniversary, part of the reason we chose to have the celebration here at the cathedral is because the cathedral plays a role in the history of Church of the Messiah.

As you all know, Church of the Messiah go back to 1874.

But the physical building of Church of the Messiah was originally St. Paul's Episcopal Church, and it was in Downtown Detroit.

The church caught fire, and they decided to build the new St. Paul's, which we are in.

And the leftover pieces of old St. Paul's from that fire, the then rector or pastor of Church of the Messiah went to the diocese and asked for those leftover pieces.

Those leftover pieces of old St. Paul's is the standing building of Church of the Messiah currently.

And we just felt as though this is the fitting place to be able to have our 150th celebration, since we literally came from this physical structure.

So our theme for the day is the audacity of faith.

The audacity to be able to say you are going to do something about the circumstances in the world.

A few years ago, our local PBS station created the "Black Church of Detroit," and they asked me to be on the advisory board.

Rich Homberg, president of Detroit PBS.

(audience applauds) - Sarida Scott from the Community Development Advocates of Detroit took us to the Church of the Messiah.

And we took a crew in.

And the reverend brought together about 10 folks, and we sat and talked about the importance of his church and churches across Detroit.

He talked to us about his commitment to young men.

He talked about his commitment to ending violence.

He talked about the role the church plays in the community.

- From us to Detroit PBS, for all of the great work that you do, the commitment to Detroit, and the fact that y'all are coming back to Detroit and gonna be in the neighborhood, God bless you.

- You build in two years.

Thank you.

- [Barry] Let me continue.

Let me bring over Richard Cannon.

- And my mother heard about what's happening at Church of the Messiah at the Sunday school at the Episcopal church over on East Jefferson and MANC.

And when I came to a prayer meeting, what I saw and experienced was love.

Love.

And it was something that undid me and drew me to be a part of that community.

- We created something called Silence The Violence in 2008, where we honored those young men and we stood up for them.

- I love the Church of the Messiah.

So can we give Church of the Messiah a hand, please?

For 150 years of service that is turning around church hurt, demonstrating what church is about.

Faith in action and the work behind it.

- Just so many of you in here who are just such amazing people.

This is a room full of energy and power.

Muhammad Ali said something so strong when he said, "When the mission is right, the odds don't matter."

♪ Put on my robe ♪ ♪ Tell the story ♪ ♪ How I made it over ♪ ♪ I'm going to put on my robe ♪ ♪ Tell the story ♪ ♪ How I made it over ♪ ♪ Made it over ♪ ♪ Made it over ♪ ♪ Made it over ♪ ♪ Soon as ♪ ♪ I get ♪ ♪ Home ♪ - That'll do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org, and you can connect with us anytime on social media.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] From Delta faucets to Behr paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco.

Serving Michigan communities since 1929.

- [Narrator] Support also provided by the Cynthia & Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [Narrator] DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Among the state's largest foundations committed to Michigan-focused giving, we support organizations that are doing exceptional work in our state.

Learn more at DTEFoundation.com.

- [Narrator] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(bright piano music)