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- What it takes to create great public schools, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Terence Patterson, President and CEO of Memphis Education Fund.

Thanks for coming back.

- Good to see you, always excited to be here.

- Absolutely, and along with Bill Dries, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

Before we get into talking about public schools, talking about what's going on, you know, across the board, but talk, give the 30 seconds.

What is Memphis Education Fund so people understand the perspective you come to this with?

- Yeah, so we are an advocacy organization.

We are focused on improving public school systems in Memphis and Shelby County.

We do that through improving policy, speaking with legislators, speaking with community leaders to inform them on how we can improve the policies that make our systems better.

And the other thing we are, we're an investor.

So we look at innovative ideas and strategies, and we try to put our money where our mouth is so that we can support schools, students, and families.

Again, at the end of the day, we're trying to improve student achievement, but we're also trying to improve the quality of life and the impact that our young people have on the future and on the world.

- So, we'll talk through schools, Memphis, Shelby County School System.

I'm still getting used to the new name, so apologies.

And forgive me if I put the whole solution to every problem with public education on you today, but it's a good forum and, and you've been dealing with lots of different issues here.

I mean, so MSCS has had a bit of a bad run.

They've got, you know, they had Joris Ray, the superintendent, stepped down under, you know, pressure and controversy.

They've had a number of higher up people either leaving or they're on leave.

I mean, it's just not a great leadership situation.

And the, the latest, I think it was the, the national tests on assessment tests came and it was not good.

It was a really low score, low score on a national level, statewide by comparison.

Some of that obviously coming off of COVID but what, right now, I mean, when you look at the school system, which already has real challenges, right?

I mean, you're talking about a, a, a student body that's very poor coming from poor families, coming from sometimes troubled families.

What, what can, where is the school system and what can it do?

Because people want it to do well, even if they don't have kids in it, they pay taxes into it and they know that's the future and they know that that can solve a lot of Memphis' challenges.

- Yeah, Eric, it's tough, I mean we, we've hit a, I mean we've hit a tough patch.

We sort of endured through COVID.

We've seen scores take a dip.

We've had some leadership change and challenge.

But I think what we can't lose sight of is that every day teachers are going into buildings and they're working hard and students are in classrooms working really hard.

So people still care.

And what's important is that we just continue to support the system.

It's gonna ebb and flow like this is gonna happen in life, right?

But we know that we can do better.

The current results and outcomes are unacceptable.

But we think that if we can focus on two or three key levers, we can continue to make progress.

One of which is early literacy.

We've gotta make sure that our young people are learning by the time that they are in kindergarten, first, second grade, so that when they are in third grade, they are ready to really take the next step in terms of reading to learn instead of learning to read.

We also have to make sure that we're connecting the gaps between what kids are learning from kindergarten to 12th grade to post-secondary and making sure that they are ready for college and career.

And then we also have to make sure that we're continuing to support our teachers and making sure that those adults in the building are qualified, but they're also being compensated.

We gotta make sure that we are supporting them so that they can do the best work.

So we are in a challenging moment, but we think if we can continue to work on those levers, we can show more improvement in progress.

- And let me do, as I go to Bill, just for people who don't follow this close enough.

And I don't wanna put this on Terrence, 'cos this is not, not Terence, but again, I mentioned the superintendent Joris Ray resigned in the summer, excuse me, recently the Chief of Business Operations Genard Phillips is leaving, a fired, an underling of his, a supervisor was fired for gross misconduct around some purchasing issues.

And then you've got two other senior leaders, as I mentioned, the deputy superintendent for finance is on leave, that's John Barker and the head of HR, Yolanda Martin is on leave.

Bill, did I miss any?

- I think that, I think that rounds it up.

- That's plenty.

Yeah, that's fine.

- That's where we are at the moment as we record.

- And the school board just did a retreat and they're talking about this process, which Terence may wanna comment on, but again, I don't wanna put this on Terrance, so that's why I'm talking to they, their retreat and the, the process for hiring the school board is where?

- They, you have at least four board members who are, who are saying there has to be a national search.

And this time there is a lot of emphasis on completing that search.

There was a national search when Joris Ray was picked as the superintendent in 2019.

I was basically called off by a vote of the board before it was completed.

- Joris Ray, who had been in the school system for many, many years and said.

- And who was the interim And the interim superintendent after Dorsey Hopson left.

So with that in mind Terence, the Memphis Education Fund's thought on undertaking a national search this time as well.

- Yeah.

So we think that there should be a comprehensive search.

We use language national search, but a complete search.

What we wanna make really clear is it is possible that we have the next superintendent in this Memphis, Shelby County, greater Tennessee area, right?

So we don't want to say we just want to find someone from outside of the community, but we wanna make sure that whoever that best candidate is, they are matched up against a pool of high quality national talent.

And the thing you say was really important, Bill, it's been maybe over 15 years since we have had a completed comprehensive search.

I think going back to Superintendent Dr. Kriner Cash.

- Right.

- So we've had four superintendents since then.

We believe that it's important as a part of our work, we are doing a series of three convenings where we want to educate the community one on what the policies are that govern a search, what other similar communities are doing or have done in their national searches.

And then also an opportunity to get feedback from the community so that they can understand that their voice is really important.

So it's our hope that on November 7th we'll have that first one to talk policy.

On November 14th, we'll have a second one.

And these both will be virtual, where we'll talk about what other similar sized cities and similar populated cities with students similar to our demographic have done in their searches.

And then the last one will be on December 6th, where we'll have a conversation in person live to get feedback from the community, 'cause here's what's important.

We don't want people to be asleep on this one.

This is a really important job for our community.

It's obviously one of the largest from a financial standpoint, but it's the most important from the standpoint of impacting lives.

Nearly a hundred thousand students are in our public school system.

So we have gotta make sure we find a leader that understands our community, Someone that understands how to move academic improvement when you've got 1 out of 10 and 2 out of 10 students that are reading and doing math at or above grade level.

So this is really important and we think that's a starting point, but we want to get community feedback for this process.

- Right.

And and with, with with Kriner Cash, as you mentioned, was the last time that there was a, a search done on a broad basis for this.

Some of that was because of the unprecedented nature of the merger of public education in Shelby County, followed very closely the next school year by the demerger of public education into the seven systems that we currently have in Shelby County.

But one of the things that has come up in the discussion of a search in those past years is that outside groups have said, we'll fund the search.

And one of the search firms actually actually cautioned the school board at at one point, "Okay, "Be careful about who funds the search "because they may come, may come with an agenda of who they think might be best."

So should there be outside, outside funding of this search?

Or, or is this an expense that the school system should bear.

- Look, if the school system has the resources, they certainly should bear it, but you know, again, when we think about our schools and our students, we believe in community partnership.

So if the business community, if the philanthropic community would like to support the search process, I think that's fine because ultimately the school board will be making the decision, right?

Like those votes are the ones that are going to determine who our superintendent is.

I think that more important than who funds the search, is the quality of the candidate pool, making sure that we're not just looking under local rocks, but we're looking under national rocks because there are a lot of great, talented folks that either are from Memphis, that have a connection with Memphis.

Maybe were teachers in Memphis at one point.

So Bill, I guess from my standpoint, who funds the search is less important than those non-members that are gonna be making the decision on who the superintendent ultimately is.

- Right, in the public discussions that are going to come up later this month, do you think there is a feeling that, that there is some credibility that needs to be restored with the public?

- Absolutely, I mean, when you, when you read the newspaper, you know, you see the transition from our most recent superintendent, there's certainly a question mark, and it's gonna start with communication and trust.

And then the other thing is gonna be accountability.

I think interim superintendent Tony Williams is doing a really good job in terms of, you know, righting the ship and, and taking some, some good actions in this interim time so that when we do get to this process, we'll make sure that talented individuals will want to come and work in this system.

But Bill, you're right.

I mean, any time you have transitions and allegations and distractions that we've had over these last several months, it is tough for our community, but we're resilient.

I know that people still care.

I know that we have advocacy organizations in the community that are going to voice their opinions and share.

The business community is really energized about this opportunity, especially when you think about Blue Oval and Ford and the excitement around what we can do to make sure that we're preparing our students for the future.

So, trust is probably low, but I think it can be regained.

And I think this process will be a great opportunity for our new board to help regain a lot of that trust.

- One of those, you, you made the point, you know, despite all these distractions and these problems, they're, you know, the schools are open right now.

I mean, kids are in school and it's always a, you know, whenever we have people on talking about the schools, I'm always struck by the, it's sort of the train of the, the classroom and the education doesn't stop as all these things go on it.

Everyone's not just waiting in the classroom for a new superintendent watching a movie.

And one of the things that the whole, the, the whole Tennessee, all schools in Tennessee are moving towards is this third grade reading assessment.

So it is a law that was passed by the state legislature that you've gotta score at a certain level on the TCAP or you could very likely be held back in the second grade in order to advance to the third grade, right?

And that will happen in the spring, late spring then if people don't, you know, but given where TCAP scores are, and this is not just a Memphis problem, this is a statewide problem.

Tens of thousands of kids could be held back based on prior year tests, even before COVID, before a test.

What's going on in the school system?

It's created some opportunities.

And we've had school board members talking on about tutoring, about smaller class sizes, about Saturday school.

There are some really creative, and aggressive in the best way, approaches to try to, you know, avert what a lot of people are calling this third grade reading cliff.

Again, we're talking about Memphis, Shelby County, but it's a challenge.

I mean, I was looking at the TCAP scores for, you know, you've got in Lakeland, forty percent of the kids at this point in the 2021 test would not get, would not be able to go forward.

I mean, this is not just a Memphis-Shelby County School problem, it's a whole public school problem, statewide.

- Yeah.

It, it's a big problem and it's really a, a national crisis when we think about the recent NAEP scores, you know, making sure that we don't just say we're gonna do tutoring, mentoring, early literacy focus, but really putting curriculum in place, training teachers, finding teachers, finding talent in the community that can support our school system will be really important.

Eric, it, it's a tough one because you're right, kids are going to school every day.

Teachers and principals are in buildings every day and we know that they care.

Like they, everyone wants to succeed.

We've just gotta make sure, and this is why that leadership is so important at the district level.

We've gotta make sure that there's a clear vision and that there's a clear set of priorities so that if there are distractions in terms of what may be neat at the moment or cool here or there, we are staying focused on what we need to do.

And our mind it is continue to think about smaller class sizes, whether that be adding an adult or adding a certified teacher to classrooms and then making sure that we're building on community assets in the context of our mentoring programs and making sure those mentoring programs are aligned with the curriculum that students and teachers are doing during the day.

- The third grade, again, I'm gonna call it the reading cliff, but it's the third grade assessment that's about to happen.

Again, And I mentioned, I don't wanna just pick on whoever I just picked on, but I had, these are the 2021 test scores for Arlington.

A third of the kids would not move forward.

Bartlett, 60%, Collierville, 40%, Germantown, 30%-ish, Lakeland, as I said, 40% Millington, 80%.

And so just, and again statewide, it's tens of thousands of kids who would not be able to go forward.

There's a, there's a summer program if I'm, if I remember correctly, where they can maybe, you know, make up some ground and get themselves up.

Where, where are you, where is Memphis Education Fund on this notion of holding kids back if they don't, if they don't go forward.

And we did a really extensive series.

David Waters from University of Memphis Institute partnered with us on this five part, six part series about other states that have done these.

We're gonna hold kids back sort of testing, where it's worked, where it's really been a disaster.

I mean, it's, it's not a magic fix, where you just hold that kid back and then everything's wonderful.

So where, where are you all on on this what's about to happen?

- Yeah.

It's a tough question.

I, we know that it's not always in the best interest of students to hold kids back.

We also know that it's not always a good idea to set kind of an artificial target.

So it's our hope that in those cases where it would be in the best interest of the student in consultation with his or her parent, that holding back and and doing more work is helpful.

You know, we'd be supportive of that, but we also know that if you have a summer bridge, if you can again, create more fidelity with the curriculum that's in place, that we can reduce those numbers.

This isn't gonna be 10 out of 10 students are always gonna be prepared, you know, we're trying to close that gap as best we can, but we also don't just wanna hold kids back because there are other circumstances that are, that are driving this, right?

We talked about poverty a little bit or you mentioned it earlier in the show.

There are other circumstances, there are other factors in the community.

So it's a tough answer.

I don't know that the Memphis Education Fund has a view per se, but we know we gotta keep working at the problem.

- And, and again, I, I would point people, David Waters did this amazing series breaking this down, what other states have done because there is, there are a lot of people are like, Hey, if they're not ready to go hold 'em back.

And I think if I remember correctly, it was "One Day, One Test, One Score", was and it's on The Daily Memphian site, but I'll go back to Bill.

- Well, and Terence, it also seems as if what you're saying is you have to have flexibility to realize, for instance, a child who is not reading at grade level, but who may have made substantial progress or shown, shown substantial growth from where they were, even though they're not at grade level and, and a student who is, who is just not anywhere close to reading at grade level and who seems to be stuck and, and really needs some more intense intervention.

- Yeah, that's right Bill.

And you know, this is why parent and community engagement and communication is so important at the school level because if you're having regular conversations with your teachers, with your principals, I think you can make those types of judgment calls.

And you know, you oftentimes hear this notion that, well, you know, parents aren't involved or, you know, is the community really invested.

And I think in Memphis and across all of our schools, parents do care and I, and I am seeing that there is a higher level of community engagement and parent involvement so that when the the time does come, there won't be any surprises and people have a clear pathway for how we can be flexible to support our children.

- It is some of that increased involvement a, a function of the choices that parents have now?

And, what do you think that choice has has done to the concept of a quote unquote neighborhood school?

- Yeah, choice is important and at the Memphis Education Fund we believe in school choice and that choice should be, should rest with parents and families.

Parents will ultimately vote with their feet.

And so neighborhood schools and community schools are tantamount to our communities.

Like schools are important, they are the linchpin.

And so what choice is done is it's stepped up everyone's game.

I mean, you've gotta compete for those students and we think that's important, whether that be a public charter school that's in your neighborhood, whether that be a specialty school that's in your neighborhood that may provide certain science and technology resources that another school maybe provides music and arts in a certain capacity that's in the best interest of your child.

So we believe choice is important.

Every parent should have that opportunity to make that decision.

And if the school down the street isn't performing at a high standard, it's okay for a parent to make a choice to go somewhere that's in the best interest of their kids.

But, it doesn't choice doesn't mean the decline or the deterioration of the neighborhood school.

It just means our neighborhood schools have gotta work a little harder just like other schools to, to really push and, and keep and retain students.

- Let me change subjects here and, and, and ask you about the infusion of federal funding that that public school systems saw across the country as a result of the pandemic.

Memphis-Shelby County Schools was, was flush with that federal funding.

What has that done to the relationship that, that your fund has with the school system and, and helping out on some pilot programs, some new approaches to education?

- Yeah, so Bill, you, you're referencing the nearly $800 million that came to Memphis and Shelby County with the federal ESSER funds as a result of pandemic response.

And one we've worked closely just to make sure the community understands how those resources are being spent.

You talked about some pilot programs and innovations that are taking place.

They've started to put more adults in the classroom.

They've started to enhance the curriculum that's being used, a greater focus on literacy.

And then there's also been just some general facilities and capital enhancements that can support the learning environment.

And so we've seen the initial investment.

The challenge with making those types of investments is you'll typically see a lag on the impact.

And so it's our hope that over the next 12 or 24 months we'll be able to look and see what the early indicators are for some of those innovations.

And then we'll be able to have conversations, get some feedback or give feedback and also hear how the district is course correcting or if they're gonna double down on some of those early investments.

- Does the ESSER funding go away at, at some point and if so, what happens then?

- Yeah, so it is a three year runway.

So there was ESSER 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0.

So it is gonna go away.

It's one-time funding and the best use of those one time funds are to catch up for things that you needed to have done in the past that you didn't have resources to do.

But then also, as you mentioned, take some research-based chances to improve student outcomes.

And again, when you've got one out of two and, or I'm sorry, 1 out of 10 or 2 out of 10 students that are performing at the level that we need them to, we've gotta continue to double down.

So we want to use this three-year runway to make some of those investments.

If they're working, then it provides an opportunity for us to find sustainable ways in that broader school district budget once those funds run out to find ways to prioritize those things.

- And, you said something key there in, in terms of evidence-based, because I think in the past what kind of strained credibility with parents was, was calling these programs experiments or or saying, hey, let's just take a chance and see if this works because things are so bad now in this, in this particular area.

Parents really don't like to think that their children are are being experimented on with something that might not work, right?

- Yeah, well look, as a parent of a fourth grader at a public school in Memphis and Shelby County Schools, you're absolutely right.

I mean we also talk a lot about the future, right?

Like what can we do to make sure the school system is improving?

But we've got parents that have kids in the system right now, and to your point Bill, we wanna make sure that they are evidence-based, they are research-based and certainly there, there're room for innovations and that that's where great things happen.

But we also wanna make sure in the event that there are innovations like that, that there are a series of indicators and metrics and benchmarks so that you can course correct and so that you are doing what's in the best interest of kids.

But we we're at a moment now in, in our community where we need to be trying some really cutting edge innovations, but we also need to be doubling down on those tried and true things that just require a little more investment and a little more continued fidelity, where we can't just say we're gonna do this for two or three years and then because we have new leadership in a department or something, we're gonna change.

We've gotta stay the course because this is a long game for our kids.

- We just have a minute left, so we'll stay a little bit with funding.

Last year, almost a year ago to to the day, you were on with Natalie McKinney from, I just forgot the name.

- Whole Child.

- Thank you, Whole Child Strategy, excuse me.

The legislature was talking about changes in the funding formula that passed, right?

I'm right about that.

What, what we're going into a new legislative session.

So quickly, what is the new funding formula from the state meant for Memphis-Shelby County schools and all the Shelby County school districts and what are your priorities as you go into the next legislative session?

- Yeah, so it's the TESA legislation which changes how students are funding based on student need.

So each student, based on his or her needs, will get access to funding.

So in a community or school system like ours, where there are greater need areas, we could see a significant increase in funding that comes to students in Memphis and Shelby County.

And then in terms of priorities going forward, we wanna make sure that as we are implementing TESA going forward, that if there are modifications, enhancements that need to be made to make the process go more smoothly 'cause it's a new system.

We wanna make sure that the legislative body is flexible to allow some of those things.

We also wanna make sure that we're continuing to support how we support our teachers, make sure we re we can retain those teachers, but we also are investing in them based on increasing salaries.

- All right.

Thank you so much for being here and thank you Bill.

Thank you for joining us.

If you miss any of this show tonight, you can get the full show on WKNO.org or you can search for Behind the Headlines on YouTube.

Thanks very much and we'll see you next week.

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