- [Advertiser] Someone gave, someone donated, someone left a legacy.

Generations of generous someones have helped shape Rhode Island into this amazing place we call home.

How do you thank them?

By leaving your own legacy.

We can help.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to another edition of "In Another Opinion," a public information and educational program where our discussions focus on the diversity of our communities in Rhode Island.

I'm your host, Peter Wells.

My guest today is Dr. Kiara Butler, chief executive officer and founder of Diversity Talks.

Welcome, Doctor.

- Hi.

- Glad to have you on the show.

- I'm so happy to be here.

Thank you for having me.

- I have to admit you're probably one of the youngest doctors I have had on this TV program.

- Oh yes, yes, I love to hear it.

- I'm really excited to have you here and I'm proud of you.

- Thank you.

- Now I know you're not from Rhode Island and that's not a bad thing.

You're from Mississippi.

- [Kiara] Yes.

- Okay, and you've been here for how long?

- Almost 10 years.

- Wow, wow, I've been here 20, so you're almost a Rhode Islander, you know that?

- Almost, how long does it take?

- Oh, I don't know.

(laughs) It depends on the Rhode Islander you're talking to, I suppose, but it is a transition.

Now I do know that you have some connection 'cause you went to Brown for a while.

Tell us about it.

- Yes, yes, so I attended Tougaloo College.

It's a historically black college in Mississippi and they have a partnership with Brown University, so students from Brown can go to Tougaloo, and then students from Tougaloo, which is an HBCU can go to a predominantly white college.

So I did a semester exchange in my junior year of undergrad.

And then after I graduated, I decided to move back to Rhode Island.

- Very good, well, we're glad to have you back.

- Thank you.

- I know there's not often that talent stays in Rhode Island.

It normally is developed and then leaves.

- That's what they say about Mississippi.

- Really?

- Yes.

- So it's probably something they say about every place, right?

- I think so.

- You know, the brain drain?

- Mm-hmm, yep.

- Okay.

Well, but we do get fortunate enough every now and then to get people like you to come into the state and that's a positive.

So tell us about Diversity Talks.

What's it all about?

- Should I start there or should I start with why I founded Diversity Talks?

Let's see.

- Your choice.

- So like I said, I'm originally from Jackson, Mississippi, and Jackson is predominantly black.

So that meant growing up like my mayor was black, my superintendent was black.

My teachers were black.

I was like surrounded by blackness.

- [Peter] Total difference from here.

- Yes, and then I went to an HBCU, right, still surrounded by blackness.

I did my semester exchange at Brown and that was really a culture shock for me.

It was the first time that I was introduced to wealth in a way that I hadn't experienced.

It was the first time that I was introduced to privilege in a way that I had not experienced.

And I didn't recognize that the resources and like the things that I was given as a child weren't equitable.

And so that was one of the reasons why I moved back to Rhode Island because I saw the student teacher diversity gap, which I didn't recognize because I had black teachers.

But I got to Rhode Island and I saw that the education, like the teaching workforce was about 82% white, but then the students weren't.

And there was a disconnect.

And so I worked in a lot of fields.

I worked in domestic violence.

I worked as a college and career advisor.

I also managed the superintendent of the largest district in Rhode Island.

And that was like where I saw firsthand that decisions were being made that didn't necessarily benefit students of color, specifically black students.

And so it was through all of those experiences, I'm gonna give you the short version, it was through all of those experiences that I wanted to create a platform for students like myself, that didn't necessarily have a voice in education, even though we all have voices, right, but didn't necessarily have decision-making power within education to talk about how we should be treated, the things that we want to see in the curriculum, decisions that are being made on our behalf and our benefit.

And so that's really one of the reasons why I started Diversity Talks.

We specialize in training 9th through 12th grade students to be able to facilitate professional development.

And they do it for their teachers and their administrators, but also across the country for their community.

And it's really putting the power in the hands of the students because they are the experts of their own lived experiences.

And oftentimes in education and society, we have this like deficit-based narrative of what our students can achieve because of the systems that are in place.

And so Diversity Talks is really breaking down those systems, breaking down those power dynamics and putting the control in the hands of the students.

- Okay, you know, you said something that triggered something for me.

And that was when you came to Brown, you experienced wealth and entitlement that you had never witnessed before.

And it was kind of interesting because I had a similar experience.

I went to college in Vermont in 1964 on a soccer scholarship, which was number one, unusual, but number two is that my freshman year at Wyndham College, I was the only black male on campus, and there were six females.

But we, like you, experienced wealth because the school was very expensive.

I would probably not have been there if it weren't for the sports scholarships that I received.

But seeing wealth in a different way is very interesting.

I mean, I'm the son of a Baptist minister who didn't make very much money, and a school teacher.

- [Kiara] Yep.

- So I mean, I didn't want for things that I needed, but it wasn't what I experienced when I got to school.

And that changed my outlook as to how I wanted to grow and how I wanted to develop.

It had that same impact on you?

- Yeah, I think so.

So I received free and reduced lunch in school, and I didn't necessarily knew what that meant.

I just knew that my lunch was free, right, and I was excited that I would not forget my lunch money one day and I would not be able to eat because that's the thing in Mississippi.

Well, now everyone in my district receives free or reduced lunch, which is really good.

But at the time when I was matriculating through like elementary, middle school, high school, if you forgot your lunch money, you didn't get like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

You just didn't eat that day.

- [Peter] Right.

- And so I was really excited that there was never a day that I would have to forget my lunch money because it was free, like, that was what I saw as a free and reduced lunch student, whereas society paints you as a failure, right?

So in third grade, they're already determining if you're gonna be in prison.

And so coming to Rhode Island and going to Brown and eating in the cafeteria, but then seeing students who were like, yeah, I'm going on my parent's yacht, I'm like a yacht?

What's a yacht?

Your parents got a yacht?

I know what a boat is.

We fish in Mississippi, but a yacht, right?

And so that for me was like the moment where I was like, something's not right, and it's within a system, but then we take it back to an individual problem.

I think we do that very easily in society.

We ignore the systems that are at play.

And then we point at the individual and saying like, oh, just pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

- Right.

- It's like, but you got mad boots.

You got a lot of boots and you got a lot of straps.

And I'm working with ones with holes in them, and I'm stumping in puddles and I'm sinking.

Sorry for my analogy, it's early in the morning.

- No, no, it's good, it's good.

Yeah, no, when you said that, because you know, people with access, with wealth usually has somebody pulling the boots on for them.

So it's not the same thing, it isn't.

But I kind of moved away a little bit, but I wanted to make sure that the viewers here, the fact that, you know, it is a real issue to come from an environment that's either totally white or totally black and reverse it.

And then you learn a little bit more about not only yourself, but how society has impacted you and how it will continue to impact you.

And you have a choice at that moment.

Do you want to be part of that or part of this, whatever your choices are?

For me, it was, you know, I had never experienced this kind of wealth and I thought, geez, one of my classmates had a brand new Jaguar in 1964 for a high school graduation present.

- [Kiara] Wow.

- And I said, one day, I'm gonna have a Jaguar.

I eventually did when I retired.

It took me that long.

But the bottom line is it told me that there is something to strive for besides the Chevrolet.

I can have the Jaguar.

- Yes.

- Okay, and that was the important part about that.

But culture shock is very interesting coming from one part of the country to the other, and from an HBCU to Brown.

My granddaughter right now is going to Carter down in Atlanta, which is an HBCU.

And this is her first experience of being exposed to a majority of black school growing up in Springfield, Massachusetts.

But anyway, it'll be interesting to see how she grows.

But tell me more about Diversity Talks.

What's the numbers, you know, what kind of people are getting involved with you, and so on and so forth?

Are there places that we can see it at action?

- Yes, definitely.

- Talk to us.

- Yes, so we're saturated mainly in New England.

However, we work with over 50 organizations in school districts across the country.

- [Peter] You say, "we," how many is we?

- [Kiara] We are a team of 10.

- [Peter] All right.

- Yes, so I started Diversity Talks in 2017.

At the time we were a team of two and since 2017, we've grown to a team of 10.

And so, yeah, since inception, we've worked with over 150 students.

We've trained them.

They've started leading professional development across the country for their teachers and their administrators.

We worked with over 50 organizations.

Number-wise, I would say we've worked with around 2,500 educators, so they've gone through our youth-led professional development series, but our main goal is to increase cultural confidence.

So how are we shifting your mindset?

But then how is your mindset then playing out in like your behaviors in your classroom practices?

And so we created our own assessment tool for measuring our work.

Oftentimes you hear that anti-racism training doesn't work or DEI training doesn't work, but it really comes down to how are you measuring it and what are you looking for?

And so we created our own assessment tool to see like, is this actually working?

And we do it through our PERM framework and assessment, and PERM framework and assessment is broken down into four dimensions, so power dynamics, empathy, relationships, and mindset.

And I reclaimed the word perm because oftentimes there is a stigma for black hair in the black community.

And I remember growing up as a child, like having to get a relaxer because people were saying that straight hair is the way to go, right?

And I'm kind of going left, but I have to explain it.

Straight hair is the way to go.

It's what's deemed professional.

People will view you as more intelligent.

However, it's something that caused a lot of harm for me and having to straighten my hair.

And it's also something that caused a lot of harm for black women across the United States.

And so I reclaimed perm, and now I have white people saying it across the United States as an assessment tool and a framework.

And so we measure cultural competence and that is how we are able to see if our work is actually doing what it's supposed to.

- Now the term has been used a lot, but if you have a definition of cultural competency, could you give that to my viewers?

- Yeah, so cultural competency is your ability to understand, communicate and interact with people across cultures, like how are you able to do that?

And it's based on a spectrum from cultural destructiveness, all the way to cultural proficiency.

And so we're able to see if a teacher comes in and they're culturally destructive, what training and supports do they need so that we can get them to be culturally proficient?

- Are they tested or surveyed?

- Yeah, so our PERM assessment actually gives us a gauge of where they are before they start the training.

And then they take it again at the end and we see any shifts in their attitudes.

- So if you could put your finger on something, what's been the biggest change in people, what area?

- Yeah, so we have about a 62% in our participants' views on racism within the context of the United States and then an 82% change in their actual behaviors.

So that is what we're seeing across the board.

Most times when people come into our workshops or our trainings, they view racism as this act of being good or bad, naughty or nice, versus an actual systemic issue that needs to be addressed.

And it's really around who holds that institutional power and control within the context of the United States.

And so that's what we're trying to get people to recognize in our trainings, like your own individual power and your own individual privilege, and then how you're contributing to white supremacy.

Whether you're doing that intentionally or unintentionally, we're all contributing in some way.

- Now you mentioned the issue of hair as an example of a cultural issue that has been a problem.

What other kinds of physical or visual things would you say are also as prevalent as something as hair as a stumbling block in the work environment?

- My accent.

- Your accent?

- Yeah.

So I think I've kind of, since I've been here for 10 years, I've found a way to turn it off and on.

Oftentimes people say like, you don't sound like you're from Mississippi.

- Right.

- I'm like, what does that sound like, right?

And where did you get that from that people from Mississippi sound a certain way?

And then if I did sound like I was from Mississippi, what exactly does that mean?

So even just my Southern Ebonics or my Southern twang, or if I move my hands in a way that seems threatening, or if I raise my voice or if I'm not enunciating my words.

You asked for one, I think I gave you like five.

- Gotcha, well, you know, I can relate again to this situation.

My mom was an English teacher, so I was corrected a lot as to pronunciation of words.

And I did a lot of reading, obviously as a youngster, but I can remember two out of three times, if I'm on the telephone talking to someone, I was perceived to be white before they saw me.

And especially with my name, it's not the typical name that one might associate with an African-American.

But in fact, when I was a young man, I was just 20 I think or 21, I ran for city council in the city of Springfield.

And instead of using my name, Peter Wells, I said P Clifton Wells.

And I got a lot of votes because that obviously is not a minority person.

- Yep, Clifton.

- I never put my picture in the news, just my name in press releases.

And I took 10% of the vote, which was 2% short of getting the seat, but it taught me something that was correct.

If we talk cultural competency, my competency told me, use a name that would identify with those who don't know you.

So, and that's what I did.

I used this very archaic English, I don't know, platitude of P Clifton Wells and it raised my stature, and this guy, it's got to be the right person, but he was black.

And I'm telling you, I can't tell you how many times that's happened.

And you probably have had the same thing.

- Yeah, I mean, it's another example of you as an individual attempting to fix a larger systemic issue, right?

Which it shouldn't fall on your shoulders to have to change your name in order to be elected for a position, right?

We should be looking at the larger system that allows that thing to happen.

- Exactly, yeah.

And I never, as a young man, of course, and I've had a lot of jobs, for the most part I've worked in government most of my life, city, state, and federal, and at all levels, these issues, you know, these lack of cultural competency issues come up.

In fact, when I was a bank examiner in Massachusetts, believe it or not, I used to think that white folks didn't like themselves more than they didn't like black folk.

I would be in a room with Italians.

Most of the employees in Massachusetts, in the sixties and seventies were either Irish or Italian, if you were a state employee.

And we would be in a room working at a bank auditing, and maybe the Irish guy would walk out of the room and the Italian guys would start in on the Irish jokes or vice versa, but then they would say to me, oh Peter, but we don't make jokes about people of color or black people, as they said.

And I said, right, as soon as I walk out of that room, I know you're into it.

But that's when I realized the scope of racism.

It wasn't just a color issue.

Color's a part of it.

But it's an issue of different cultures.

I don't like you because you're this, you're Italian, hence the names, a wop or a guinea, which were names that were given to Italians, who incidentally, prior to the forties, weren't considered white coming to this country as you probably know.

Spaniards, Greeks also were not considered white people until after the forties and when they came into Ellis Island, but that was done by a congressional opportunity to say that these were white people.

Because prior to that, Mediterranean folks weren't considered white.

They were the other.

But when you take a look at that history, it's very easy to understand where we are today with the polarization in this country.

- [Kiara] Yes.

- What do you say about that polarization?

How do you address that in your training?

- Yeah, so we really start from a place of implicit bias and looking at how we are all inherently prejudice within the context of the United States, because of media, because of things that we take in, whether it's generationally things that we've just been taught about ourselves, or just our access to other people and other cultures.

And so we all have implicit bias.

No one is immune to implicit bias.

And because of that, we have to work to mitigate it.

And so that's really where our training start is to say like, how are you holding yourself accountable?

- Do you think we'll ever stamp out racism in this country?

- Oh man, that's a crazy question, right?

Because racism really is around the reinforcement of the systems of power, and who's holding those systems of power, who is amplifying prejudice acts when they're happening on the individual level.

And right now, as we know, as a society, white people hold the institutional power and control within the context of the United States.

And so if white people aren't then taking ownership of that, right, and acknowledging that, and then working to change it, I don't think we ever will.

I don't, honestly.

- Now, but your generation, different from mine, has probably a better opportunity, maybe.

I think your generation is a bit more open to change and to difference.

So there is some hope at least from my standpoint that that might happen.

I don't know.

I mean you're closer to it than I am.

- Yeah, I think our vision as an organization is to have an anti-racist society with everyone collectively working together like through shared leadership and accountability.

If that happens, our organization will be out of business, which is the goal, right?

But we have a long way to get there, right?

Because we have to start at that individual level, the micro-level and then work our way up to that macro-level because they work in tandem.

- You know, it's interesting when you said, and this is interesting, anti racism is a term that should be used more often, I think rather than, as I said earlier, stamping out racism.

- [Kiara] I'm not racist, yep.

- No, you're not going to stamp it out, but you have to do a mindset of being anti-racist.

So you have to actively work against that.

- Yes.

- Are white and, or are black people ready to work actively against racism?

- Yeah, we have a training where we talk about the difference between being non-racist and actively anti-racist.

And so it's really easy to separate yourself from racism.

So like I know that racism exists.

I see it operating.

However, I am not a part of that system.

I don't contribute to that system.

That could very well be putting yourself in the non-racist box, whereas to be actively anti-racist you're continuously learning and unlearning.

You're continuously addressing things when you see them.

It's really easy to see prejudice or hateful or discriminatory acts and turn your head, like I'm not a part of that, right?

But even if you aren't a part of that, like, how are you stepping up and how are you using your power and your privilege to hold space for people that are being harmed?

How are you pushing back against laws and policies that are in place that you know are harming people?

How are you speaking up in your workplace when you see discriminatory acts?

How are you speaking up at your dinner table, right?

We oftentimes like, let our family say crazy things, things that we don't necessarily agree with.

And then we don't say anything and we sit in that discomfort, but to be actively anti-racist, you're pushing back against those things, whether it's your family members, your coworkers, your neighbors, your supervisors, the president, right?

You're pushing back on all those levels.

And that is what it means to be actively anti-racist.

However, with that comes loss and you have to be willing to accept that loss.

- Yeah, life is a bundle of risk, isn't it, in decisions of choice.

What got you into this?

- Oh man, what got me into this work?

I think it took growing up in Mississippi.

As everyone knows in the country, Mississippi is labeled as this place that is bias and bigotry and racism, right?

We've labeled an entire state, but it's the people living within the state.

But then it's also the system that is allowing these people to do these things.

And I think it took my level of ignorance growing up in Mississippi, going through metal detectors when I was in school, not being able to use my locker, having my bag searched by dogs, all of those things that I experienced as a child that are now coming up for me as an adult, because I was looked at as a threat, right?

Having to have a clear book bag because they thought we were gonna have weapons.

Were we really policing students in that way?

Was I really being policed in that way as a child because I'm black?

- [Peter] Clearly.

- Exactly, I think that is one of the things now as an adult that has led me to this work because I recognize that other black students, other students that look like me are still being policed in that same way, but then told that they are getting an education, like they are in a safe space, but we're the ones being viewed as the threat.

- Yeah, is there anybody else going through the Brown partnership with the school Tougaloo at this point?

- Yeah, it's a thriving program.

Normally it's for students that want to enter into the medical field.

So yes, Tougaloo and Brown, they have a partnership around the, don't make me mess up the name, but if you want to go into medicine, everyone knows that Brown produces doctors.

And so there's a pathway there that you can enter into your sophomore year of undergrad and then you're on your way to becoming a doctor.

And so that's still an active program happening.

- Oh okay, very good.

Yeah, Brown Medical School has its tentacles in a lot of places.

I've used them myself, but I've always liked university doctors, but that's just me.

I take risks.

(laughs) - That's not a risk, that's not a risk.

You got to get when they're learning.

- Well, this is true.

I mean, they've got to practice, right, in order to become good.

- Yep.

- You're right.

Listen, we're running out of time Doctor, and I know I'm gonna have to have you back 'cause I didn't get all my questions answered.

- [Kiara] Yes, definitely.

- But we will have you back.

And maybe you can, by that time, have some more information for us as to where Diversity Talks is going in the future.

- [Kiara] Definitely.

- In 30 seconds though, can you tell our viewers how to get you and so on and so forth?

- Yes, we can be found at diversitytalkspd.com.

You can follow us on Twitter @diversity-_talks.

Let's see, we're on Facebook.

We're on Instagram.

We're everywhere actually, just type in Diversity Talks.

We'll come up.

- Okay, and you'll come up.

- We'll come up.

- Absolutely great, I will do it today.

- Please.

- Thank you, Doctor.

- Thank you.

- We have run out of time, but I want to thank today's guest, Dr. Kiara Butler, and you, the viewers for tuning into another edition of "In Another Opinion."

A special thanks to PBS for making this program possible.

I'm your host, Peter Wells.

Give us your opinion on Facebook at In Another Opinion.

Reach out to Dr. Kiara Butler at Diversity Talks and utilize the information that you've heard today.

But above all, what we always say at this show is we want you to have a great day.

So have a great day and come back and join us next time.

(upbeat music) - [Advertiser] Someone gave, someone donated, someone left a legacy.

Generations of generous someones have helped shape Rhode Island into this amazing place we call home.

How do you thank them?

By leaving your own legacy.

We can help.