Welcome to In the Moment from th Public Library, where storytellers become truth Performers become trailblazer and conversation cuts straight to the heart of what matters.

This is in the moment.

Correspondent.

For those of you who don't know.

Those of you who are already sub Like, handle up on it.

I just like all the thing.

So thank you so much for being h So my editor for this book is Abby West, who is at Amistad.

It was incredibly important to that this book be at a black imp So Harpercollins is the larger p but Amazon is the oldest black i in mainstream publishing.

So reall I really, really wanted to do it for all of the reasons that the about like how hard it is to be to be a person of color in the which is what this book is reall Toni Morrison does that in that But Tracy Sharon actually acquired the book when she was at Amistad, but Tra Amistad to go to little, Brown.

And then for a short period and this is important, I'm saying it for the record.

Jim Baker was the editor for the book.

Okay.

And then Daniella Wexler for th was the editor for the most part is because it took me a long ti also because publishing is so vo And black people in publishing so incredibly volatile.

It was there was really a period when I though I would have to rethink whether I could achieve what I wanted to achieve at a black imprin if they couldn't keep black edit And then I ultimately did hav a black woman editor.

So, yes.

And Abby was wonderful.

And then the editorial assistan for the book, another Howard gra who is an English summa cum laud who said I remember a freshman s You said you worked on publishin I want to do publishing.

I said okay send me your informa full circle moment.

She ends up being the editorial for the book for like a gig that I recommended her for.

So it was really cool.

Wow.

Really cool.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

And so.

You know I think that the obvious questio to start off with is like why focus on Toni Morrison as an We know that she is a literary giant, an icon.

What does her her role, her her time as an editor?

Tell us about the icon.

So many things.

I mean, I remember the first ti I realized that she was an edito and there was a certain level o there for me in terms of what th I knew books came from somewhere and I knew somebody worked on them, and somebody acq and made them happen.

But I wasn't exactl sure what that full process was I was in a graduate semina with that little trailer, and sh we're doing Toni Kay Bambara, Ga Leon Force, Henry Dumas.

And I said, okay, like help us to understand why these in particular are all great oth what made you pull them together She's like, these are the ficti Toni Morrison edited at random H And I said, She was an editor like, so these books come into b because she acquired them as an and they were the authors.

And she said, yes, and there wer So my initial intent was to focus on the fiction and to include Morrison in that conversation.

At the point where I starte the first time that I mentioned to, or the idea for the book to Morrison was at the Leon Forest I had just finished a book on L who very few people know, and th that I would get them to know L who is this beautiful Chicago wr A really important Chicago writ they would say, who's that for u And I would say, okay, Toni Morr what is this editor?

And then they would go, oh.

So I realized, like, that was an entry point.

Yeah.

She was doing the Leon Forest le at northwestern shortly after he had transitioned, and we were talking about it.

And I think really it's like that moment where, yo people tell you like experience will like make a difference, wh if you are excellent with your c and you own it, then like doors open for you.

And so because I really knew what I was talking a And very few peopl really got down with the offers Like as a scholar she looks like So tell me more and the more we and she says sit down.

So we sit and we start talking.

And I said, you know, this was t The doctor Traylor had done, an and Doctor Traylor just had some Their buddies like their runnin because we were girls together.

So part of what we were able to even in that conversation was to say, like, you know I was doing these we had this cl where we were looking at the wr that you edited, and she just li just as nobody talks about the e Shit.

And I was like, well, you kno I think it's important to think Yeah.

And at some point I would lik to really talk about the editors not just about the discrete writ And she said if I can help in an let me know.

And at that point you go, yeah, you put your foot on the gas.

And that's really how it started Our first interview I'm talking You know I have like my question And when was this.

When was as far as the interview I this low key shade I don't kno I want to show the work.

Now I know, I know, I'm just glad 2005 2005.

Yes.

So it took almost 20 years to fi And I'm I'm joking about the shade because we talked about it in the green room and I was like, I'm saying yes but it needed to happen this way I trust the universe in that way So I, you know got all my questions written dow I'm ready.

I'm like sitting them.

I'm like, all right, let's go.

And I'm asking her about these a These editors in particular.

She's talking about everybod except for what I want to talk a And there is just no way.

Yeah.

There's no way to be like ma'am, I need you to stay focuse Yeah, yeah, I need you to talk.

About what I want to talk about.

And she said, oh, don't worry, you know, we'll talk about it a little bit more later.

So second interview.

I get through a little bi and she's giving me like one wor as I'm asking her about the writers themselves.

And she's talking about the othe And what I didn't realiz that someone told me after the f oh she was editin you like, like in real time by s this thing has to be more expan than just these fiction writers.

Like it needs to be bigger.

Yeah.

Like you like you want to the fiction writers.

But I edited it more than 50 boo So at that point we kind of coll and I start saying, here are the books that I have o What are the books that are on y So we come up with a cumulative so that then we can see, look back and see and say, all r if we're going to talk about all of these how do we do this a little bit differently?

Well, how how was it to be talki You know, interacting with her because even as I'm writing the questions out, I'm like, oka do I call her Morrison?

Professor Morrison, Doctor Morri I like I can't call a Toni.

That's too familiar.

Like, so how did yo how did you interact with her?

Like, what was she like as a pe as large in life as one would im So I was still like a little bit Yeah.

The best, conversations were ac those that were more informal.

And again, because I had the ben like doctor trailers.

You can trust her.

Yeah.

Then there was a little more rel on her part but I was still definitely Miss Miss Morrison.

Like what?

And I was still not pushing.

But also, I got just enough sout Yeah, to be like.

Ma'am.

No.

Yea Like quietly.

Yes.

And when we were talking about we had talked a lot about titles and how difficult titles ar and how difficult titles can be.

I go u and I tell her that I got the ti ready to go, and I say, the hous that Tony built at random, and she says, too long.

But Toni at random.

And I thought, all right, great And then I say, what can I say, Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And she says, well no one would know who Chloe was, like very casually.

So I said, all right, so you're permission at this moment.

And she's just like, she was like, I'm over this thi that you can't call me by my nam Yes, but I still said, Miss Morr this Morrison.

Now I feel you.

And I mean that.

And that gets into something, an I wanted to, that I do want to talk abou is the fact that in this book, we kind of get the idea of Toni not just as this artist creative but also someone who was very co of what sells.

Right?

She was committed to telling the of the black experience and of black people and to not, being yielding to the white gaze But she also was like we have to sell these books and what can we learn from that?

That you have to pay attention to your profit loss statement if you want to do somethin that may or may not sell well, you better make sure you're doin something that sells extremely well so that you can get awa with the other thing that you wa That's part of it.

Leon Forrest again, was a beautiful writer wh she admired But then for us, never in that first editio never sold more than a thousand So she had to make sure.

And I got to do thi to make sure that I can do this.

So I think that's part of it.

Her commitmen and I hope that we can get back People will ask like what do I is like some results of the book if you will?

I hope that we can get back to t to the moment where we do prioritize the liter Because the literary is as much as art in a general sense.

I don't know that we will ever get to a point where we are selling and publishing books, but we will probably get to a p sooner than later if we aren't paying attention where we are publishing only mediocre books.

And so when you say the literary, what are you saying?

The way that Toni Morriso was looking at the beauty of the the importance of the writing was the writing challenging some she was looking at more than ju is this something that people wi Is that what you mean by the.

Absolutely so.

And Bill will tel Anybody will tell you.

My sister, like I read as much literature as anybody in the wor Yeah I have already finished Highland I finished in SAG Harbor.

I finished like I'm.

I'm down with Lenny Holston Yeah, because I need.

I need the beach.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah but then there are books that I And the way that I have bifurcat is kind of snotty but is real.

Like even on my iPad or my Kindl it's a quick read for me.

Yeah.

But if it's something that I'm g to teach and beauty's laughing because she understands of the African-American literature prof there are books that you will ha that are timeless.

They're universal.

You learn something about yourse morally, philosophically, they're just done with a certai level of gravitas, if you will.

Yeah.

And that that stay with you in a differen that stay with you in a differen and can change you.

Yes.

Can change you Oh you did that better than I di No no no.

They can change.

Yes.

You know, the book starts off with Toni Morrison speaking at the second National of Afro-American writers.

And she's making the argumen that for black writers and black to succeed, basically she's saying we need each other.

I'm gonna look, the book is all but I'm going to kind of go to what she says.

She essentially says and this very early on in the bo is that the survival of black publishing which to me is sort of a way of the survival of black writing w on the same things that a surviv anything depends on, she stated which is the energies of black p sheer energy inventiveness and innovation, te the ability to hang on, and the contempt for those huge monolithic institutions and agen which do obstruct us.

In other words, we must do our w That's right.

And I mean, you know and this is just her talking, I But what do you think that means What does it mean to do our work Because I guess I'm I'm going n not just literature, literature as a whole, but black literature black publishing, black books.

What does it mean to do our work So the title of the opening chap it was really important for me into ground the chapter in a bla And it happened to have been How where she' on this panel talking about publ But the title of the chapter is We All We get.

Intentionally so because her poi black music dying because we black black music.

Yeah.

And we have the bigger point she made in the remarks.

And this was in a Q&A session, i we don't put up with black bad black music.

No, we don't put up with bad bla fill in the blank.

Yes.

So part of her point was we have an expectation of excell and we meet it.

If we continue to meet it as consumers, it can be produced Where it got a little bit tricky is where we weren't the main consumers of our art.

We were primary, but in terms o or not we were making the purcha So her bigger point is if you buy the books, good books good books will continue to be p So her other example was around detective fiction.

She said, if you publish 900 detective novels, Lakshmi, who works in detective and diagn 900 of them will sell them.

So you have to build an audience in such a way that you demand that publishers give you what you want.

And that was really how she came to compile The Black Book, the boo that she's most known for as an And The Black Book is in its 30t Maybe, an anniversary edition.

But her reason for doing that w she would go to a sales conferen And the way that it works is a p has sales meeting twice a month, and you go and you say, here's the book that is on my li Here are the places that I want to sell it.

And the sales people say, we can black books across the street.

And so she says, I'm going to do a book that you can sell anywhere and make the poin so we can end this once and for I'm tired of this conversation.

So to prove that black people ar buying public, and I think that that's really i to think about, and that transition into any number of other sectors in the same way that people know black women vote.

Yeah.

Like peopl know where people consume cultur So we are the ones who have to d a certain kind of literature, because if we buy it, then they will produce it.

Well you know, you go into when, Toni first starts at random House, s she's a single mother, two young I didn't realize I, you know, you always hear that story.

I didn't realize that her, you ex-husband wasn't, like, involve And, like she was kind of totally on her o When she starts out at random Ho a way, is she?

She was thinking about it as he job, as her way to pay her bills That was interesting to m that this was the way to pay our Yeah.

And actually she stayed there un She had sold plenty of books.

She had done The Bluest Eye she'd done Sula, she'd done belo I mean, she had writte and was an established writer, but her and she talked about th as growing up as a key to the de as a depression case.

She's like, I need a check every two weeks.

Like, these books are nice.

I think this is going to work ou But I need a check, I need insu I need this, and it's only when her editor says, you're really a like you really can stop.

Yes, but for her, it was.

It was.

This is my day job, if you will.

I didn't see a tremendous differ between writing and editing.

And by then she's also teaching because she saw it all as deali with books and words and literat And she also obviously believed in, you know, you know, this is in the 70s and She's coming up in a tim where she's seeing the activism, and there's a point in the book it's like, yes, it would have be to be in the streets, but there had to be a record.

And so what does that mean?

That or how was she looking at she was thinking, there must be Yeah.

So Angela Davis, I think is a good example.

She contracts Angela Davis less than three month after Angela Davis gets out of j and Angela Davis is adaman that she doesn't want to write a She's like, I'm not even 35 year I don't really have anything to but part of what makes for good editing is anticipatin what the reading audience needs.

So as the trial is goin on, Morrison is working back cha unbeknownst to her publisher to to some degree, that would ma possible for her to get at the very least, a shot at Ang And somebody needed to tell the the way that Angela Davis wanted to be told, where it was really a continuation of the activism, not a tel all about who was sleeping with or why the Black Panther Party, like, fell apart in one city.

So that was a part of the record Another example is she publishes a white Yale Law professor, writes this book called The Case for Black Reparations and James Forman, just to give yo a little bit of the backstory, had gone to Riverside Church, taken over the pulpit, and demanded reparations on behalf of black people.

In the news everywhere, people a about thinking about it except they were critical of his Imagine pin.

I spent a whole lot of time in M as a graduate student so I'm here for all of the thing But imagine somebody rolling in now, just like straight up, like come and getting a mic from and saying, we demand whatever, whatever we're done about.

Tried it because we gangster.

Ye That's it.

But imagine somebody doing i and that's what Forman does at R Everybody thinks that he the pe who are on his side think that h But there's like enough of an ed that it gets lost.

So when Boris Kerr, again, Yale professo who has said there is a legal ar for reparations, she said this a part of the record and they ag We got to take this reparations conversation out of the fringe and bring it into the mainstream and make the argument they end up arguing about the ti Yes.

Yeah, because he wants to like The Second American Dilemma She's like, now we goin call this the case of black repa Yeah.

And he's like, no but I'm not actually making the I'm just laying out what the parameters are.

Now we going to call thi the case of black reparations.

But then she goes to a sales con And this is the interesting, like really kind of fun part where you never know whether it's true or not.

She tells him, listen when I went to the sales confere I didn't even say anything abou reservations that I had about th They just said, no.

So what they want to go with is here 1 or 2 options like here what we're going to go with.

And he pushes bac until finally back to the press.

And she's like do you want this book to sell or Do you want people to pick this book up or not?

And if your goa is to bring this conversation, her language and the letter to h if you're going to bring this out of the ghetto, because literally it's like you you can say if you don't want this to be Fre but if you want to say you want to bring this conversa out of its ghetto, of this is a radical black thing into mainst we got to deal with this face on And eventually she convinces him whether it was willing or not, we don't know.

But.

And how I mean, how, ahead of her time and ahead of I to read about the case for repar that that was made back then.

And it's not until the 2000 where we have Thomas Ingles once agai making the case for reparations.

So much of what she was doing and pushing was against the status quo was questioning, questioning and challenging.

And it was ahead of its time.

It was before people were even r to have a conversation.

Yeah.

And that's, I think, again, what makes for a good editor being able to anticipate and then having to some degree, she had a certain level of gravi that was, available to her because she was a writer that other people did not.

She also had the benefit of bei at random House because and let' Doubleday and I learned this fr Marie Day, who is an incredible or who was an incredible editor herself.

But, I'm looking I'm thinking about M because I'm looking at my Metrop family, Marie Brown, you know, like, oh, Marie Day.

Now, Marie Brown, who was at Dou who said everywhere else, every other house you had to take it to a committe Imagine yo the only black editor in the roo You got to take it to a committe And everybody's like, I'm not fe No.

Yeah.

So you get the pay by no means yeah I don't know about that.

Ye At random House the editor just had to convince the editor in chief this is the book I want.

This is how I intend to pitch it This is how I think it's going t Here's my profit and last state and the editor in chief says, ok And we also know that there was special about Morrison like, yea And we know there was something about her.

Like in a general sense, I don't have the language for i but as a way of telling the stor she was at a singer a small textbook company in Syra At some point, the executives fr go to a singe because they have bought a singe and they're making decisions ab going to make it so random House We don't know why she gets chose He had experienced her for less than 30, 45 minutes, but there was something about h and her awareness that made them all right we're going to bring her over he So that same kind of energy mad possible for her to go directly editor in chief and say, I want and this is how we're going to d The other thing is anticipating Muhammad Ali's b We know Muhammad Ali is very pop but at the time that she acquir the book, Muhammad Ali is not th popular person in the public im because he has said he will not His license to box has been revo and she's still like, yeah, we' going to continue to work on thi Charles Harris, who was an editor at random Hou before she was acquired the book but she picks it up even though they were, like ready to cut their losses becaus Ali took almost as long to fini book as I did to finish this one So they're like we're just going to cut the loss because h then gets his license to box aga He ain't think my random book no So she's having to like, really, really get his writer o and then try to get him to stay All because she can anticipate whether something is too radical or it's something that's going t really well.

He ends up winning the champions and within month the book had no finished chapter She gets Richard Durham who's his writer, to come to New and for a mont they work on nothing but this bo because this book's got to be ou while everybody is talking abou Ali, and they sell 100,000 copie like in weeks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amazing.

I want, but as an editor, we talked a little bit about how push back on her writers.

And I love this thing.

Where she let me see where I got to look at this.

I love this how she stood up for when she was editing, George Ainsworth Labs.

And he was pushing back on her and I said, I have to use this f And she basically says to the to I cannot be strong armed.

It is simply an ineffective tact because it makes me angry and uncooperative.

And I feel like I need to say that, yes it makes me angry and uncooperat don't try it now, she said she h relationships with the authors.

Yeah, some author got a little more cooperative th and there were points when I wa the archive and I'm like, dying I'm like, oh, we're done for the I'm done.

Like.

And in a moment like that when she's like, I can't be stro No, no it makes me angry and uncooperat I just stop, just.

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