♪♪♪ male announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by Merit Medical and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you, thank you.

Jason Perry: On this episode of "The Hinckley Report," new leaders are sworn in and set their priorities for the year ahead, Utah lawmakers take a stand on major immigration policies, and polling reveals what issues are at the forefront of Utahn's minds in 2025.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Jason: Good evening and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week, we have Representative Candice Pierucci, a Republican from Riverton and majority caucus manager in the Utah House.

Dennis Romboy, editor with the Deseret News.

And Chris Bleak, partner with RRJ Consulting.

So glad to have you all with us.

A lot of interesting things happening this week in the political world.

People are taking their offices after they've had their election.

I want to start talking about the inaugurations first with you, Chris, if that's okay.

So, we had all the ceremonies this week.

The Eccles Theater was full of lots of folks.

We had the oath of office taken by Spencer Cox, Lieutenant Governor Deidre Henderson, Attorney General Derek Brown, Treasurer Marlo Oaks, and State Auditor Tina Cannon.

Big event and speeches were coming out.

Talk about some of the takes from that event.

Chris Bleak: Well, I'll just note, you know, we forget four years ago when some of these people came into office.

I guess, Governor Cox and Lieutenant Governor Henderson are the only ones from that group, but weren't able to celebrate.

We weren't able to have that inauguration because of COVID and the things that were going on at that time.

So, it was a well organized event.

It was a great celebration, and I'm happy that they got that opportunity and really I think most importantly they set an agenda tone for what they're looking forward to coming forward, and it's optimistic and it's energetic and it's tackling the issues of the day, and I think that's not surprising coming from the governor and the other folks that were on the stage, that's what they're focused on.

Jason: I want to get to a couple clips from that.

First from the governor talking about some of those policy oriented things he'll be working on over this-- over the coming years.

I want to show 'em that one and then we'll get into the lieutenant governor who had a chance to speak here as well.

So, watch this clip, Dennis, and we'll give a comment about some of these issues and how they're resonating with voters from the governor.

Gov.

Spencer Cox: We believe in an abundance agenda that we don't have to choose between saving our precious resources and make Utah great and being one of the fastest growing states in the nation.

We believe that we can raise the quality of life.

My focus, our focus will continue to be on affordability, energy affordability, housing affordability, things that are hurting a large majority of Utahns.

We'll be focusing this session on our elderly population specifically who have been left behind with soaring prices over the past few years and really the next generation as well.

Jason: Okay, let's talk about a couple of those issues, particularly when he's talking about the senior citizens.

We're talking about his proposal on a social security tax cut for that particular population.

Dennis Romboy: That definitely should help that population who doesn't have a lot of income to begin with and it's strange to me that that's taxed anyway, you know.

I don't know why that has been the case all these years, but that would be something that could help, housing affordability also.

I, you know, I don't know how much government can affect all of those things, grocery prices, and all that kind of thing.

I think it's a good thing for the governor to talk about, to deliver on some of those things might be a little bit more difficult.

Jason: Representative--oh, did you have a comment?

Rep. Candice Pierucci: On the Social Security income tax what we've done over the past three sessions is continued to cut that back because we're trying to provide relief to our most vulnerable and our elderly population.

We've also worked on a property tax circuit breaker, where those individuals' property taxes are what--pricing people out of their homes right now that they bought, say, you know, 1970s, 1980s.

So, we really are working hard to try and address our elderly but also our young families is definitely gonna be something we're prioritizing this session and how do you keep Utah affordable?

How do you keep homegrown talent here?

And I'm sure the governor will be working with different legislators on different policies.

Jason: What are a couple of approaches to that issue that we will likely see this session?

Rep. Candice: For families, I think we're definitely gonna be looking at an income tax cut again.

I think it's taxing productivity is the worst thing you can do.

So, we'll be looking at lowering the income tax.

Last session we passed the child tax credit for kids who are 0 to 3-years-old.

We'll be looking to expand that.

So, really trying to help those families who, you know, in a lot of cases you have to have two incomes to support a family right now in our state.

I know in my area 60% of families have to have two incomes to be able to live in our area.

And so, trying to provide that looking at education, how do we enhance school choice to customize kids' learning experiences.

So how does Utah continue being number one and not leave them behind?

Chris: One of the interesting points Representative Pierucci made there is the legislature has cut the tax on Social Security over the last three years, and yet I don't think it resonates.

It's always the frustrating thing or challenging thing for legislators in the environment is, you know, they're taking smart, incremental responsible steps to getting there and people are saying, well, you're still taxing it even though that rate has gone down.

And so, maybe the best thing is just removing it entirely, but it is such an awkward challenge in the policy making area you know.

Do you take these incremental steps to get there and does that buy you anything, so to speak, or do you just have to get rid of it in order for anyone to pay attention to it.

Dennis: I think it's hard for people to see that in their own budgets too because prices are going up.

So, the tax might have gone down a little bit, but they're paying more for eggs, for milk, for bread, and so that gets chewed up, and they don't notice that they're-- Rep. Candice: Absolutely, we're operating in a national political environment that we have seen inflation through the roof, prices through the roof, and I think so you're not filling any cup.

Because it's going somewhere else and discretionary income is tight for people.

Jason: Just this week, the Speaker, for example, in your House was talking about how session after session we have seen for some time tax cuts, various categories, but tax cuts over a period of time.

Thought about why that's not resonating so much?

Is it just because of these costs?

Or are we going to see more of it this time?

Rep. Candice: I think we're working hard to put more of people's hard earned money back in their pockets.

I think we should always be doing tax cuts and making government more efficient.

I will say I think a large part of this is the environment we've been under a Biden administration is the high cost.

When I go to the water park over summer, all the moms are talking about how expensive things are and when you're at the grocery store, we're all shopping in the clearance meat section first to check it out.

So, I think that's what you saw this election, this presidential election was a vote for common sense and getting prices down because the American people aren't having it and in Utah we used to pride ourselves on being affordable and the secret got out that Utah is a great place to live.

And so, we have to really try and rein this in and make sure that it is still affordable to live in Utah so that we don't lose people to other states.

Jason: A couple other big policy items, Chris, were brought up by the Lieutenant Governor as she gave her speech.

I want to play a clip there and talk about her approach on some of these issues and how this might really correspond with some of the priorities also of the legislature.

Let's roll this clip.

Lt. Gov.

Deidre Henderson: As we face new challenges, we will build on the foundation we've inherited.

We will continue to embrace the and.

We can maintain public safety and demonstrate the compassion that defines our values as a state.

We can welcome refugees and new Americans and support immigration reform.

Finally, following the leadership of Governor Cox, we can disagree with someone and still show them respect.

Jason: Talk about how those couple issues are going to play out in the session public safety, immigration, and we'll be talking about civil dialogue too, but those two first ones for sure.

Chris: Yeah, I guess I would say I hope that what she's saying is true because what she's talking about essentially is the Utah way, a term of art that we've used for a long time, but it's about finding solutions, recognizing there are problems and challenges that need to be dealt with and solved, and those are often very complex and difficult.

But there is a way to do that without demonizing individuals or groups of people, and I think people care about that here.

And so, I love the general comment and tone that she's setting there, but these are going to be challenging issues specifically as it relates to immigration.

We see even within the Republican Party, the Trump, you know, group, there's been a battle going on between about H-1B visas, you know, and with different groups, kind of the Libertarian tech crowd and sort of the more MAGA America first crowd.

And they're seeing that issue around immigration very differently.

And so, how they go about resolving that I'm going to be intrigued to see, but I think here in Utah we've always taken this approach that we do need to solve complex problems, but we also need to recognize there is human impact and we do care about people here in this state.

Jason: I'll break down immigration in just a moment, but let's chat for just a moment about one new elected official, Derek Brown, our new attorney general, Dennis, took office this week and immediately put out a couple of statements about some things he's going to do.

One, I guess close to you as the, you know, the calendar, his calendar will be made public.

And also, he says he will create an internal ethics committee to identify potential conflicts of interest.

Dennis: Yeah, I think he's off to a good start there.

I mean our attorney general's office for the last three administrations have really had a black eye in a lot of ways and the last one was about a calendar and I think that was--that went on for about a year.

And so, him saying he's going to release his calendar weekly or put it on his website, I think that's a good thing.

I don't think it's a complete calendar.

We've been getting the governor's calendar for years, every Sunday night for the week, and I don't think that's complete either, but I think it's a good step in the right direction.

And it does give the impression of openness and more open government.

And the ethics committee is a good thing too to help separate any kind of conflicts of interest that you might have, and we've seen that there's been conflicts of interest with our past attorneys general.

Chris: I'll just say I loved from his office they had one of their first team photos of them eating lunch down at Crown Burger that plays off of the previous--yeah, absolutely.

So, maybe the key thing if you want to get some time with the Attorney General, the Crown Burger at Third West is the place to be.

Jason: Good to know.

Dennis: As a reporter, that'd be a place to ambush the Attorney General.

Jason: Thank you for that.

Rep. Candice: I am excited about Derek Brown.

I think he's gonna restore public trust in that office and bring transparency that's much needed.

I also think that office is incredibly powerful and in some ways it's been underutilized.

And I'm excited that we have a partner in the Attorney General's office that we're really gonna be able to address some of these issues we see like gang violence and rising crime in areas.

And I think he's gonna be important, an important player in that, and he's already shown that he's gonna be proactive in working with the legislative branch and his team has already reached out to me.

So, I'm very impressed and I think he's gonna do a great job.

Dennis: I think that helps for his background as a legislator, as a party leader, all of those things kind of-- Rep. Candice: He's a collaborator.

Dennis: Yeah for sure.

Chris: One of the people that he's hired John Dougal, the former state auditor, is going to be his administrator, I think it's what they're calling that.

And so, you know, John has strong opinions.

There's no question about that, but also has been in the legislature, has served in a statewide office.

Chris: Absolutely.

Jason: Some accountability.

Dennis: He wasn't afraid to take on things either as the auditor and look at some things and, you know, it was hard, hard for people to accept some of his findings.

Jason: Well, he may be involved in this issue, and you will for sure.

I want to talk about immigration for just a moment.

So, this past week you and some many of your colleagues had a press conference.

You talked about some of the immigration reforms we're likely to see during this legislative session.

Maybe talk about a couple of those and then I want to get to some polling.

This really has shown the sort of change of attitudes over time across the country and in the state of Utah on this issue.

Rep. Candice: Yeah, great question.

So, the crisis of the southern border has made it to where every state's a border state now.

My hometown of Herriman, where I grew up, I was in a meeting with ICE, and he referred to Herriman as Little Venezuela that has become a major relocation.

And as I looked through the Syracuse Institute report at border crossings, Herriman is actually listed as frequently as New York City and San Francisco right now at the border of people coming across.

So, Utah has become a major destination location for a lot of these individuals who are crossing the border, whether it's legally or illegally.

There's a lot of complexities to this issue, so it's hard to try and just rapid fire it, but one of the biggest and I think most damaging changes that the Biden administration made was how they handled the asylum seeker program.

Rather than waiting until you had your case adjudicated and then entering the country, allowing everyone in and waiting here 3, 4, 5, 6 years till your case is heard, I think has actually diluted the effectiveness of the asylum seeker program and I think it's reduced support for those immigration programs because people don't see them for what they traditionally were viewed as.

So, there are some things that we've been working on for over a year and a lot of it centers around public safety and individuals who are committing crimes after they enter our country whether it's either illegally or using the temporary asylum seeker program.

So, one bill I'm I'm running focuses on Class A misdemeanors.

So, right now you can only be incarcerated 364 days for Class A misdemeanor in Utah.

That's a huge problem because ICE will only deport you if it's you've been incarcerated 365 days.

So, we're bumping it up one day.

We're also telling judges, hey, you need to be looking at an individuals who are here illegally and then are, you know, picked up on a crime as a high flight risk when you're setting bail.

It'll also be trying to target an--the issue of nonprofits who are literally bussing and sending these people in.

I've heard stories where families literally are dropped off a curb in Herriman and they're told good luck and they'll take care of you here.

And so, you know that that isn't humane in any way to any families.

In fact, there's one family who was trying to get back to Chicago where they were sent over here from, so I would say nonprofits you'll lose your C-3 status and you won't be able to apply for any state grants if you knowingly are transporting undocumented individuals here, so, there's that bill.

We've got a lot of different bills we've got one that addresses E-Verify.

We have one that addresses jail capacity.

We have one that is addressing gang violence.

So, a lot of these gangs know that in Utah, you know, we give juveniles a second chance.

And so, they're actually targeting kids as young as 9, 10, 11-years-old to commit these heinous crimes knowing they're gonna get off a lot easier than say the adults that are making them do that crime.

So, we're really cracking down on gang violence.

We've seen TDA have a presence in Utah, which is incredibly concerning, and then we have other bills, you know, I think there's 11 bills in total we could talk about.

Another bill I have that's a little bit different is for English language learners.

So, the Supreme Court has said, you know, everyone, this people want to debate whether or not we should be educating undocumented children.

That's something the Supreme Court has addressed and said, no states, you have to provide K through 12 education.

So this bill, it says look just like when we have an influx of kindergartners come to a school that say the numbers are much higher than was anticipated.

We have emergency funding we provide.

This would do the same thing.

We had a school that had over 100 kids show up the first day.

They couldn't speak English and they never attended school or even registered.

And so, that was a massive amount of students with unique needs for the school to absorb.

So, this would provide some English language learning assistance so that our classroom sizes don't continue to bloat and we're trying to have a very targeted approach to that issue, but save that bill, everything else we are really, really focusing on the criminal elements that the crisis at the southern border have created in our state.

Jason: It's interesting as we start talking about immigration reform.

It was a campaign issue certainly through the last presidential election, and Dennis, you followed this a lot over the years as well, and some people are starting to talk about the Utah Compact.

We saw it was drafted in 2010, sort of reaffirmed in 2019, signed by business leaders.

Talk about that for just a little bit because it seems like that may be a little bit--it's a framework.

Dennis: It's just a framework and it addressed a local law enforcement going after the worst of the worst, the criminal immigrants that are here illegally.

It talked about that families should not be separated.

It encouraged the federal government to come up with a solution to the issue.

And those things that existed in 2010 when that passed or when that was affirmed and then reaffirmed like you said in 2019, those all exist even even now 15 years later.

The legislature passed a whole package of bills in 2011 to address some of those things.

Some of them never even came to fruition as far as I can remember a guest worker program, a partnership with Mexico, there was emphasis on employers using E-Verify or something like that.

So, these issues to me have not really changed all that much over this decade and a half.

Chris: Well you mentioned, I think one of the big reasons why the federal government has failed on this issue, and they don't have a good process for either allowing people to enter the country legally or dealing as Representative Pierucci talked about dealing with people that are legitimately seeking asylum into this country.

I mean there is a balance on something like that, and we just don't have a process.

And so, you know, do you--and then everyone debates things that instead of solving the solut--the problem they just debate the issues, right?

We need to fix the border first or we need to deal with the folks that are here first, okay, do something.

I think that's the point where Americans are at is do something so that states have the ability to deal with the issue and have some predictability because then they can do that.

You know, Representative Pierucci talked about the impact at a school.

This is where we first saw this problem in Herriman and Riverton.

The principals and superintendents out there were like we don't know where all these kids are coming from.

We're seeing these huge increases and it's bursting us at the seams.

We don't have the teachers to deal with it, so.

Rep. Candice: They set up a food pantry.

They had to set up clothing drives.

Like it was overnight.

They're trying to address this.

Chris: And so, we've got these front line schools trying to deal with immigration issues where that really is not their responsibility, but it's because we have a broken problem.

And nobody wants to solve that problem in a realistic way.

Rep. Candice: And I will just say the Biden administration made it worse by opening the floodgate.

And so, I think that with President Trump coming in, the policies he's discussed, we'll be able to turn off the faucet a little bit and be able to address what we have going on in our state hopefully, but I think the best way to strengthen our immigration system and increase support for legal migration is to crack down on illegal immigration.

If it's so hard to come here legally through our country, why wouldn't someone pay a coyote to come across the border to the land of the free, right?

Like I understand the desire for people to want to come and live the American dream.

We're also a country of law and order, and I think it's really frustrating for American citizens to see some of the things that have happened nationally.

You saw the Laken Riley Act that they just passed in the House, right?

Like we've had some really high profile cases that I think the public is saying enough's enough.

Secure the border and we got to take care of some of these criminal elements that have made their way through at the southern.

Dennis: My concern is that the net could be cast too wide going after some of these people.

I've been out with ICE officers looking for people that have deportation orders and you know I watched a man get arrested.

He was a house painter coming out to go to work in the morning.

He was charged--never charged with a crime.

He was arrested once in Illinois, but he had a deportation order instigated, and his whole family was out on the curb, kids bawling in their pajamas.

It's heartbreaking to watch, and I have a concern that some people that, yes, he came in the country illegally, had committed no crimes in the 20 years he'd been here and that tore that family apart.

Rep. Candice: Everything we're talking about in the package of bills in Utah are focusing on people who commit an additional crime because coming to our country illegally is technically a crime, right?

So, it's an additional crime if you've, you know, we're talking about gang violence, we're talking about Class A misdemeanors, we have seen in West Valley City nearly 50% of drivers are uninsured that are causing the accidents.

So, like there's a lot that's happening and I don't think anyone wants the kids on the curb to be crying and I don't think that's a fair depiction of what we're doing in Utah.

I do think though that at some point we have to address the laws on the books and start enforcing them.

Jason: Before we leave this one, Chris, I want to talk about some polling that has been done nationwide too to show how opinions have changed a little bit on this issue, particularly when it comes by party and party identification.

There's been a decrease in support for immigration.

This was the Gallup poll recently.

The question was should immigration be kept at its present level, increased or decreased?

In 2020, the number was 28% said decrease.

In 2024 it's now 55% people say it should be decreased.

This is a very interesting line to be walking as a state, particularly since it is a federal issue, as you said.

Chris: I think at some level the reflection here we'll probably see attitudes change on migration in terms of how parties start to see this just based on, as we're talking about President Trump and his policies.

You know, you're going to see a much more stark change in that and how people feel about this.

I think what it reflects to me is there are legitimate issues and there are issues that need to be solved, and at some level the federal government has to take responsibility for solving it.

I even look at the bill that was proposed here a year and a half, two years ago by James Lankford and others.

I don't know if it was the right bill.

I don't know what will pass in the future, but it was at least a step in the right direction.

Congress needs to act and put put something forward that gives states and citizens more predictability about what is going to happen and how we can adjust to that.

Rep. Candice: And those numbers went up for both Republicans and Democrats.

It's not just Republicans that are saying, "Whoa, hey, what's going on?"

That's nationwide.

And so, I don't think it's just a party issue and again I think we had, we have processes in place.

I think we need to seriously invest in those and look at those systems, but the idea of not having a system or a process is creating chaos and it's wreaking havoc on municipality budgets, state budgets, and they're trying to absorb all these different costs while also keeping their communities safe.

And so, I think it is important that we're cracking down on the criminal element and I do think Congress, my gosh, it's time for them to actually do something about our southern border.

National security is one of the few things we delegate to the national government and they're failing.

To me this is a national security issue and it's important that they actually get their act together and address it.

Chris: Because I don't think anybody, and this is what I'm hearing from you, Representative, is I don't think anybody doesn't believe that a country is benefited by immigration.

People that are coming here bringing new ideas, new energy, new capital, particularly as we see our birth rate falling, you know, in our country, but doing it the appropriate way and having an avenue for them to come in and meet workforce needs and other things that are going to happen, whether that's at the high tech skill level or at, you know, more of the base labor kind of level, but those are going to be important things that we need in our country to continue to thrive and grow.

Jason: Let me switch topics for just a moment because one big issue we are absolutely going to see this session also is around energy production inside the state.

The Senate said they want to triple energy production.

The governor wants to double energy production, and Dennis, we're even hearing about some emphasis on small modular nuclear reactors.

We got the whole range on the table for this session.

Dennis: Yeah, and nuclear is something that our legislative leaders and our Governor have been behind for a number of years, and, you know, I think the Governor has some plan to fast track some of these energy projects.

I don't know if nuclear is one of those or not, but that usually takes decades to build a nuclear power plant.

I don't know how quickly, you know, that could happen.

Jason: So, Chris, that might be behind the lawsuit filed by the state to try to go after some of these regulations to try to get some of those efforts here in the state.

Chris: Yeah, absolutely.

I think one of the most important things here as we look at our leaders and their focus on growing generation.

We're going to need it because our economy is growing and expanding and we're gonna need that, but what we're also seeing is a real need around power generation for AI data centers and some of these new technologies that are coming on board.

We're--these suck up huge amounts of power and we can't do that just sort of in the natural growth the way that we've been doing that.

Senator Sandel and Representative Colin Jack are working on a process to make sure that these new data centers or big power need, you know, suckers are able to locate here in the state of Utah but also pay their cost without necessarily socializing all of those costs across all of the current ratepayers because they they shouldn't necessarily do it.

We as ratepayers are already paying for the increased costs that come from just the natural growth that we need for new generation, new transmission.

But these big hyper scalers, we're going to need to figure out a process to make sure that we can address that so that the state can continue to grow that way as well.

Rep. Candice: I think energy independence is something we're trying to move towards as a country and that's something the incoming administration has signaled, but definitely as a state we have a lot of natural resources here and I think untapped potential when it comes to excuse me, energy and industry that we could really become a champion and important player on that.

So, you know, as a legislative body we've taken out all of-- all of the above approach, and I think it's important that we're making sure that our citizens, the lights turn on and it's at an affordable rate.

Jason: That's gonna have to be the last comment.

Thank you so much for your insights and thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

The show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by Merit Medical and by contributions to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

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