LIVE WITHOUT THEM.

OTHERS INSIST THEY CAN'T LIVE WITH THEM - AT LEAST NOT WITHOUT CONSTANT FEAR.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GUNS, ESPECIALLY EASILY CONCEALED (OR NOT) HANDGUNS.

THE RIGHT TO BEAR A HANDGUN MIGHT BE THE SUBJECT OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, BUT IT'S VYING TO BECOME NUMBER ONE ON THE LIST OF HOT-BUTTON ISSUES DIVIDING OUR NATION - AND, INCREASINGLY, OUR POLICYMAKERS.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON THIS EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, WE'LL EXPLORE THE PUSH FOR “CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY”- THAT IS, THE ELIMINATION OF VIRTUALLY ALL LIMITS ON CARRYING A HANDGUN, INCLUDING THE STATE'S EXISTING LICENSING PROCESS.

DON'T GO AWAY INDIANA LAWMAKERS FROM THE STATEHOUSE TO YOUR HOUSE.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THE CONCEPT - AND POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES- OF “CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY” ARE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE BEN SMALTZ OF AUBURN, CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE PUBLIC POLICY COMMITTEE DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE ED DELANEY OF INDIANAPOLIS REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JIM LUCAS OF SEYMOUR...AND MARION COUNTY PROSECUTOR RYAN MEARS, A DEMOCRAT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE FOR THIS DISCUSSION.

BEN SMALTZ, I'LL START WITH YOU, YOU TOOK ISSUE WITH THE WORDING OF THE INTRODUCTION WITH CONSEQUENCES, YOU SAID, IS INHERENTLY A NEGATIVE.

YOU THINK THE WORD SHOULD BE BENEFIT.

ELABORATE.

>> THERE IS ALWAYS BOTH SIDES.

BUT IN THIS BILL, WE'RE REALLY ONLY TALKING ABOUT THAT PERSON WHO IS GOING TO GET THEIR PERMIT ANYWAY.

THE LAWFUL HOOSIER IS WHO WE'RE HELPING WITH LAWFUL CARRY.

>> LET'S START WITH -- HOW DO YOU DEFINE CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY.

THAT'S A TERM THAT YOU ALL HAVE USED FREQUENTLY.

FOR FOLKS WATCHING ACROSS THE STATE, MAYBE NOT AS FAMILIAR.

>> GREAT QUESTION.

WHEN SOMEONE HEARS CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY, THEY HAVE A MISPERCEPTION THAT MEANS ANYBODY CAN CARRY ANYWHERE ANY TIME.

THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT WE'RE DOING.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LAWFUL HOOSIER BEING ABLE TO EXERCISE THEIR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CRIMINALS.

THIS BILL ISN'T FOR THEM.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PERSON WHO HAS FOLLOWED THE LAWS, OBEYED THE LAWS FOR THEIR LIFE AND WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THAT PERMIT ANYWAY.

>> DO YOU AGREE WITH -- >> I'M STUNNED.

FIRST OF ALL, THE TERM CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY IS A JOKE.

WE ARE NOT A COURT.

THOSE OF US WHO ARE LEGISLATORS, AND NO COURT HAS SAID THAT THIS MUST BE DONE.

AND GOD HAS NOT SPOKEN.

SO, THE TERM SHOULD BE THROWN TO THE GARBAGE.

>> YOU GOT TO HAND IT TO PROPONENTS THOUGH.

>> GREAT JOB SELLING THE TERM.

NOW, THE BOTTOM LINE IS, IT'S UNLICENSED CARRY.

THAT'S WHAT IT SHOULD BE CALLED.

AND SO THE IDEA IS I SELF-DECLARE THAT I'M SAFE, TO CARRY A GUN, AND THEN I CARRY IT ON MY HIP OR IN MY POCKET AND I WALK AROUND WITH IT.

NO COURT HAS APPROVED IT, NO LICENSE HAS BEEN ISSUED.

I'VE PAID NO FEE.

THAT -- AND SO I WANT THIS FOR MY CAR, BY THE WAY.

I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DRIVE A CAR, MY EYES ARE GOOD, I DON'T DRIVE AROUND DRUNK.

WHY DO I NEED A LICENSE.

>> WOULD SAY THAT'S A PRIVILEGE, NOWHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION ABILITY TO GET BEHIND THE WHEEL.

>> THAT'S A JOKE.

THE NEXT THING, WE'RE DEFUNDING THE POLICE.

BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN PUTTING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO STATE AND LOCAL POLICE THROUGH THE FEES, THE LICENSE FEES, THAT PEOPLE PAY, THAT'S GONE.

THE GENERAL TAXPAYERS WILL NOW HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT.

SO THE GUN LOVERS WILL GET THE BENEFIT OF MY TAX MONEY, THE POLICE GET LESS INFORMATION, THEY WON'T KNOW WHO HAS A LICENSE OR NOT, BECAUSE NO ONE HAS A LICENSE.

I DON'T SEE HOW ANYBODY IS GOING TO BE ARRESTED FOR HAVING A GUN ILLEGALLY UNLESS THEY PUT IT ON THEIR FOREHEAD THEY'RE A PROHIBITED PERSON.

I THINK THE WHOLE THING IS IT AN IDEAOLOGICAL FUN GAME.

>> I DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING REPRESENTATIVE DELANEY SAID EXCEPT FOR THE UNLICENSED PART.

>> -- OR UNRESTRICTED CARRY.

>> WE'RE NOT REQUIRING A LICENSE FOR -- THIS IS LAWFUL CARRY.

>> SO WE HAVE LAWFUL PEOPLE AND UNLAWFUL.

>> WHY CAN'T UNLAWFUL PEOPLE CARRY GUNS.

LET'S SAY I'VE BEEN TO PRISON, SERVED MY TIME, DON'T I HAVE A RIGHT?

>> NO.

YOU FORFEITED THAT RIGHT.

>> BECAUSE OF THE SEATING ARRANGEMENT, WE GOT TO SHARE THE BOUNTY.

I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE SHRINKING VIOLETS.

EVERYBODY SAYS CONSTITUTIONAL, YOUR PROPONENTS, PEOPLE ADVOCATES OF THIS PEOPLE, 1369 FOR THOSE KEEPING SCORE, SAY IT HAS TO DO WITH THE CONSTITUTION.

BUT THE CONSTITUTION, 27 WORDS IN THE AMENDMENT, DOESN'T TALK ABOUT AGE RESTRICTIONS, OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE MENTAL ISSUES THAT ARE DOCUMENTED, OR I MEAN IF IT'S TRULY CONSTITUTIONAL, WHY SHOULD THERE BE AGE OR PEOPLE WHO ARE FELONS SHOULD BE RESTRICTED?

>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

THAT'S ONE I'M SURE CAN COME UP AT A FUTURE DATE.

FOR RIGHT NOW THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO FOCUS ON, BABY STEPS, RETURNING TOWARDS THE CONSTITUTION.

>> IF YOU HAD YOUR WAY, AGE IS OUT, MAYBE BABY STEPS IS APPROPRIATE.

BABIES, IF THERE IS NO LAW -- >> FINE TUNE IT THAT RIGHT.

CAN BABIES VOTE?

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT >> BUT BABIES HAVE -- HUMANS HAVE A RIGHT TO VOTE, AMERICANS, THEY HAVE RESTRICTIONS AND REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS.

> ABSOLUTELY.

I REMEMBER GROWING UP, MY GRANDFATHER, BORN IN 1901 WOULD TALK ABOUT CARRYING GUNS TO SCHOOL.

THEY LITERALLY HAD THE ONE-ROOM SCHOOLHOUSE, SO THEY CAN HUNT BEFORE AND AFTER.

THAT WAS NOT AN ISSUE.

THIS ONLY BECAME AN ISSUE LATER ON IN THE 20TH CENTURY WHEN SOCIETY DECIDED TO MAKE IT AN ISSUE.

>> UNDER THIS BILL, JUST TO BE CLEAR, SCHOOLS WOULD STILL BE OFF LIMITS TO EVEN PEOPLE, WHETHER YOU -- WELL, THERE WOULDN'T BE -- >> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SCHOOLS ARE OFF LIMITS.

>> ME NEITHER.

>> YOUR ARGUMENT GOES TOO FAR.

AND IMPLIES, BY THE WAY, THAT THE LAST 70 YEARS, A BUNCH OF DRUNKS HAVE BEEN RUNNING THE COUNTRY, PASSING ALL THOSE HORRIBLE LAWS.

>> YOU HAVE A TOOL RIGHT NOW, PEOPLE COMMIT A CRIME, AND ARE NOT PERMITTED GUN -- POSSESSORS, THAT'S AN AWKWARD WAY TO SAY IT.

YOU HAVE MORE LEVERAGE, YOU HAVE ANOTHER TOOL IN YOUR ARSENAL IN TERMS OF PROSECUTION, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

RIGHT NOW IN MARION COUNTY, WE HAVE 550 WITHOUT A LICENSE CASES THAT ARE PENDING.

AS A RESULT, WE TOOK 550 GUNS OFF THE STREET.

IN ADDITION, WHEN WE GET THOSE 550 GUNS WE'RE ABLE TO TEST THEM AND LINK THEM TO SHOOTINGS IN HOMICIDE CASES.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS LEGISLATION, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE GUNS ON THE STREET, IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGHER FOR US TO BE ABLE TO PROSECUTE.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM, LAW ENFORCEMENT, WE'RE ALL TELLING YOU WE NEED THESE TOOLS IN FOR US TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN BATTLING CRIME.

AS A PRACTICAL CONSEQUENCE, MARION COUNTY IS GOING TO SUFFER.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HOMICIDE RATE IS IN MARION COUNTY... >> THE CRIME FOR ILLEGAL POSITION OF A FIREARM WITHOUT A LICENSE IS NOW SIMPLY ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF A FIREARM.

THAT CRIME IS STILL THERE.

YOU ARE STILL GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROSECUTE FOR THAT.

STILL GOING TO BE ABLE TO RUN THAT GUN AND SEE IF IT IS STOLEN.

>> HOW DO YOU PROSECUTE IF THERE IS NO MORE STATUTE?

>> THERE IS, IN THE BILL, IT CLEARLY SAYS INSTEAD OF BEING ILLEGALLY IN POSITION WITHOUT A LICENSE, IT IS NOW ILLEGALLY IN POSITION OF A FIREARM.

>> THE CRIME IS STILL THERE.

IT'S AN A MISDEMEANOR.

>> IF YOU APPROACH SOMEONE ON THE STREET, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEIR CRIMINAL HISTORY?

>> BECAUSE THE PINTER CASE, THE MERE PRESENCE OF A FIREARM IS NOT INDICATIVE OF A CRIME.

>> I TOTALLY AGREE.

>> THAT'S NOT CHANGING EITHER.

>> NO, LAW ENFORCEMENT -- >> DISMISSED CHARGES OUT THERE.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK -- >> SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY, MARION COUNTY, ALMOST 80% OF THE HOMICIDE VICTIMS HAD MULTIPLE PRIOR FELONY CONVICTIONS.

WE'RE NOT GETTING THE BAD GUYS OFF THE STREET.

WE'RE PLAYING CATCH AND RELEASE.

>> 550, YOU'VE DECIDED TO PROSECUTE THEM ON THAT CHARGE.

IF THIS BILL BECOMES LAW, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO -- I MEAN, ARGUABLY, WOULD YOU HAVE AN OPINION -- YOU COULD STILL PROSECUTE, COULD YOU, WOULD YOU?

>> THE CHARGE DOESN'T HELP US OUT, OR LAW ENFORCEMENT ON THE STREET.

THAT'S WHY LAW ENFORCEMENT IS OPPOSED TO THIS BILL.

>> STATE POLICE, I THINK IT SPLITS AMONG SHERIFFS, I THINK THAT IS WHY THE ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE HAVEN'T TAKEN A FORMAL STAND.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS, YOU HAVE A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO STOPS SOMEONE.

RIGHT NOW THEY STOP THAT PERSON, THEY RUN, DO THEY HAVE A PERMIT, YES OR NO, IF THEY DON'T, THEY'RE ABLE TO ARREST AND CONFISCATE THAT GUN.

ONCE CONFISCATED, TEST, SEE IF IT IS LINKED TO PRIOR SHOOTINGS, HOMICIDES, AND ABLE TO BUILD INVESTIGATIONS.

>> HOW DO THEY KNOW THERE IS A GUN, RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT'S LINKED TO RECORDS, IF I'M AN OFFICER AND PULL SOMEONE OVER, IN THEORY I CAN KNOW IF THE OCCUPANT.

>> THEY CAN DO A CHECK OF THE CAR AND FIGURE OUT WHETHER OR NOT A PERSON HAS A LICENSE OR NOT.

>> THEY CAN SEARCH THE CAR?

>> IF THEY SEE A GUN IN A VEHICLE, THE OFFICER IS ABLE TO TAKE STEPS TO SECURE THE GUN TO PROTECT THEIR SAFETY, GO BACK TO THE CAR, DOES THE PERSON HAVE -- >> THE PERSON WHO IS NOT THE LAWFUL CITIZEN PROBABLY ISN'T KEEPING THE GUN OUT ON THE DASHBOARD.

>> IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY IN MARION COUNTY.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE 550 OF THESE CASES RIGHT NOW.

>> THE OFFICER SEES A FIREARM LAYING OUT IN THE OPEN HE'LL STILL BE ABLE TO TAKE THAT GUN FOR OFFICER SAFETY.

AFTER THIS BILL PASSES, CORRECT?

>> NO.

THEY'LL BE ABLE TO SECURE THAT FIREARM DURING THE COURSE OF THE INTERACTION, BUT THEY CAN'T TAKE IT WITH THEM, OFF THE STREET, BACK TO THE CRIME LAB TO GET IT TESTED TO SEE IF IT WAS INVOLVED IN A HOMICIDE.

>> THE SUPREME COURT RULED THROUGH PINTER THAT IS THEIR RIGHT.

>> NO ONE IS DISPUTING THAT.

LAW ENFORCEMENT NEEDS THE ABILITY TO DECIDE ON THE SPOT, DOES THAT PERSON HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO CARRY THIS GUN.

THE CURRENT LICENSE SYSTEM MAKES IT CLEAR, GIVES LAW ENFORCEMENT CLEAR GUIDANCE, DO YOU HAVE A LICENSE OR NOT?

IF YOU DON'T, I'M TAKING THE GUN, TESTING IT, AND YOU'RE GOING TO JAIL >> DOES THE EFFICACY MATTER?

I MEAN, I GUESS SOME OF YOU WOULD SAY IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE IT'S A CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE.

IF EVERYBODY HAD TO WEAR A FLASHING BILLBOARD OVER HIS OR HER HEAD ABOUT I'M A LICENSED GUN CARRIER OR NOT, MAYBE IT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER FOR POLICE AND CUT CRIME.

DOES IT MATTER IF THE CONSTITUTION SAYS?

>> I'VE WATCHED POLICE OFFICERS TAKE GUNS OUT OF CARS AND RUN THE SERIAL NUMBERS AND RETURN THEM IF THEY'RE NOT.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT STOP, YOU SKIP A BIG STEP.

THAT POLICE OFFICER HAS TO GET OUT OF THEIR CAR, THEY DON'T KNOW WHO THEY'RE TALKING TO, THEY CAN RUN THAT TAG, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S THE PERSON WHO IS DRIVING.

THEY'RE WALKING UP TO THAT CAR TO AN UNKNOWN PERSON.

THEY ARE AWARE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY, THEY DON'T KNOW WHO THAT PERSON IS UNTIL THEY HAVE RETURNED TO THEIR CAR WITH A NAME AND DATE OF BIRTH.

THEN THEY CAN RUN AND SEE IF THE LAWFUL PERSON HAS A LICENSE, BUT IF THERE IS A GUN IN THE CAR, THAT IS NOT A REASON, THAT'S NOT PROBABLE CAUSE TO CONTINUE THE INVESTIGATION.

THAT CITIZEN HAS TO HAVE DONE SOMETHING UNLAWFUL FOR THEM TO CONTINUE THAT PROCESS.

>> AND RIGHT NOW AN UNLAWFUL ACT IS NOT HAVING A LICENSE.

>> F THE GUN IS SITTING OUT.

>> WHAT PROBABLE CAUSE DO YOU HAVE TO GO FURTHER?

>> THE PROBABLE CAUSE, THE GUY'S GOT A GUN, THE ISSUE IS IS IT REGISTERED.

>> WE'RE REQUESTING POLICE, EMPOWERING POLICE, THE BMV, OTHER RELATED AGENCIES, BY MEMORANDUM AND UNDERSTANDING WITH NO TIMEFRAME WE'RE GIVING THEM THE FLEXIBILITY TO DECIDE HOW THEY PROCESS THAT INFORMATION TO THE OFFICER ON THE STREET.

WE'RE LETTING THEM DECIDE.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT IN THE WORLD YOU'RE IN.

THE HEAD OF THE POLICE SYSTEM CALLED ME SAID THE SYSTEM CAN'T WORK.

I FIND OUT WHETHER HE'S A PROHIBITED PERSON.

HAVE A LIST OF THAT.

>> SO YOU'VE GOT OVER A MILLION PEOPLE -- >> NO ONE FROM THE GOVERNMENT EVER CREATED ANYTHING BUREAUCRATICALLY THAT WORKED.

>> MAKING SOMETHING NON-CRIMINAL THAT HAS BEEN CRIMINAL, THE ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF A WEAPON, WHEN THE POLICE SAY THEY CAN'T USE YOUR NEW METHODOLOGY.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE COPS, WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE?

I GET REINSURANCE FROM THE FACT THAT IF THERE IS A GUY WALKING AROUND WITH A GUN ON HIS HIP THAT SOMEONE HAS LOOKED AT HIM.

FROM NOW ON THAT'S OVER.

>> CRIMINALS -- SO CRIMINALS DON'T WALK AROUND WITH A GUN.

>> SURE THEY DO, BUT THE GENERAL PERCEPTION I HAVE -- LOOK, YOU THINK IT'S FUN, IT'S NOT FUN TO CARRY GUNS AROUND.

IT IS NOT FUN.

>> YOU'RE SAYING IT'S FUN.

>> YOU THINK IT'S FUN, IT AIN'T FUN.

>> YOU'RE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

>> YOU TELL MY GRANDKIDS THAT SOME WISE GUY WALKING AROUND WITH A GUN ON HIS HIP OR PLAYING WITH IN HIS POCKET, IT AIN'T CUTE.

>> THE ODDS BETTER, YOU'RE REDUCE THE ODDS.

>> SOMEONE HOLSTERED ON THEIR SIDE, AN OFFICER CAN'T GO ASK TO SEE IF IT'S REGISTERED.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT.

>> SO IF THAT DOESN'T MATTER, OKAY, AND YOU WERE SAYING THAT EXISTING LAW DOESN'T PROTECT POLICE BECAUSE IT COULD BE SOMEBODY ELSE OTHER THAN THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE WHO COMES BACK AS THE GUN OWNERS, WHY THEN ARE YOU TELLING THE BMV TO STILL MAINTAIN -- WHY NOT DO AWAY WITH THAT STEP?

>> THE HARD THING TO REALLY GRASP WHY CAN THEY MAINTAIN A DATABASE OF OVER A MILLION LAW ABIDING HOOSIERS, BUT THEY CAN'T MAINTAIN INFORMATION ON PEOPLE WHO HAVE BROKEN THE LAW IN A SIGNIFICANTLY LESS NUMBER, WHY CAN'T THEY DO THAT?

>> AN OFFICER WOULD HAVE THE SAME CHALLENGE BEHIND THE VEHICLE -- WHATEVER THIS MECHANISM IS.

>> THAT WON'T CHANGE.

>> IT DIDN'T GUARANTEE THAT THE PERSON WHO SHOWS UP ON THE COMPUTER SCREEN IS ACTUALLY THE PERSON -- >> BY THE LICENSE PLATE, CORRECT.

>> EXCEPT IT COULD BE SOMEBODY WHO STOLE THE VEHICLE, FAMILY MEMBER.

>> WHEN THE OFFICER GOES TO THAT WINDOW THEY NEED TO BE AWARE THAT THAT PERSON COULD BE SOMEONE WHO STOLE A CAR, COULD THREATEN THEIR SAFETY.

EVERY OFFICER I'VE TALKED TO SAID THEY ARE ON THEIR GUARD WHEN WALKING UP TO A CAR.

NONE HAVE SAID THEY WALK UP WITH NO CONCERN AT ALL.

>> SO YOU WANT TO TALK THE MONEY OUT OF THE SYSTEM, SO GUN OWNERS DON'T HAVE TO PAY, TAKE HIS ABILITY TO PROSECUTE, YOU WANT TO -- FOR HAVING A GUN WITHOUT A PERMIT, WHAT ARE WE GAINING?

FOR THOSE WHO DON'T FOLLOW, THE MONEY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, PEOPLE PAY $75 A YEAR FOR A LIFETIME PERMIT.

THAT PUTS $5 MILLION PLUS INTO STATE COFFERS.

THE MONEY YOU'RE SAYING WOULD GO AWAY.

>> THE 3.5 MILLION, WE PUT IN THE BUDGET, THAT IS BEING SPREAD OUT OVER THE ENTIRE STATE.

>> YOU'RE TAXING ME TO TAKE YOUR LICENSE AWAY.

THANK YOU.

>> WHY SHOULD MY TAX DOLLARS -- >> BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, SOMETHING I'M NOT DOING.

>> THERE IS NO RATIONALE FOR -- >> GOING TO USE THE LICENSING CONSTITUTION -- >> LET'S LICENSE THE RIGHT TO VOTE -- >> THEY INCREASE OUR RISK.

>> HERE'S A QUESTION I OFTEN HEAR, HOW COME LAWMAKERS SAY YOU CAN'T TAKE A FIREARM INTO THE STATEHOUSE UNLESS YOU'RE A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OR A STAFF MEMBER, WHY IS IT NOT, AGAIN, MAYBE YOU'LL SAY -- >> I'VE HAD LEGISLATORS -- >> WE'RE GIVING BABIES -- SO YOU WOULD DO AWAY.

WOULD YOU GO THAT FAR?

>> I BELIEVE THAT BUILDINGS THAT HAVE COURTHOUSES, COURTROOMS, IT'S IMPORTANT TO SEPARATE.

THAT'S NOT CHANGING.

SCHOOLS, THE PROHIBITED PLACES ARE NOT BEING CHANGED IN THIS BILL AT ALL.

>> LAWMAKERS CAN STILL CARRY GUNS.

>> LAWMAKERS CAN.

AND SO CAN -- >> AND WHO?

I WON'T QUESTION ANYBODY, I'M GUESSING A FEW PEOPLE ON THE SET MIGHT.

WHERE DO YOU GO, IF THIS PASSES, IT CAME OUT OF THE HOUSE, 65-31.

THIS HAS BEEN AROUND PROBABLY SINCE 2015, 2016, NEVER GOTTEN THIS FAR, REALLY, AND IT LOOKS LIKE PRESUMABLY IT WILL GET A WARM RECEPTION IN THE SENATE.

WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE IN TERMS OF YOUR STRATEGY FOR COMBATTING THESE KIND OF VIOLENT CRIMES?

>> DETRIMENTAL TO PEOPLE IN MARION COUNTY, OR ANY PLACE THAT HAS EXPERIENCED GUN CRIME.

WE TALK ABOUT BEING CHARGED WITH HOMICIDES, WE HAVE 178 PENDING IN MARION COUNTY.

OUT OF THAT, 23 ARE SERIOUS VIOLENT FELONS.

WE'RE MISSING A WHOLE CLASS OF PEOPLE AND INDIVIDUALS WHO DON'T QUALIFY AS SERIOUS VIOLENT FELONS THAT WE NEED TO GIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT SOME ABILITY TO ADDRESS THEM.

RIGHT NOW WE HAVE 150 OF THOSE CASES.

SO WHAT THE LEGISLATURE IS DOING, TAKING AWAY LAW ENFORCEMENT'S ABILITY TO GET THOSE GUNS OFF THE STREET, TEST THOSE FIREARMS AND SEE IF THEY'RE INVOLVED IN OTHER SHOOTINGS AND HOMICIDES, A CRITICAL TOOL WE HAVE NOW IN MARION COUNTY.

WE INVEST MILLIONS IN OUR CRIME GUN INTELLIGENCE CENTER TO DO WHAT I JUST TALKED ABOUT.

IT'S BEEN SUCCESSFUL, A NATIONAL MODEL, ABLE TO LINK ALL OF THESE.

IT STARTS WITH BEING ABLE TO TAKE THAT GUN OFF THE STREET.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT NOW.

>> JIM LUCAS, ALLAY HIS CONCERNS, OR TELL HIM WHY HE SHOULD -- >> WE'RE NOT TAKING TOOLS, WE'RE ASKING YOU TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY AND PROTECTING THE RIGHTS OF A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN.

I MEAN, YOU STILL HAVE THE TOOLS IN THE TOOLBOX TO DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

YOU MENTIONED RIGHT THERE, THE AMOUNT OF FELONS THAT YOU HAVE, CURRENT FELONS WITH MULTIPLE PRIOR FELONIES.

PEOPLE THAT DON'T OBEY LAWS ANYWAY.

>> THAT'S 23 OF OUR HOMICIDES, 23 OUT OF 178.

THE OTHER 150 INDIVIDUALS -- >> EXPERIENCED RECORD HOMICIDES LAST YEAR, AND ON PACE TO BREAK THAT RECORD AGAIN THIS YEAR.

>> THE SOLUTION IS WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO HAVE GUNS.

>> YOU WERE PERHAPS THE ONLY MEMBER OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHO WAS THE SUBJECT OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.

YOU TALK -- >> IT WAS A SIMPLE MURDER ATTEMPT.

>> OKAY, MURDER, ASSASSINATION, THE RESULT IS THE SAME.

THE PERSON WITH A GUN WANTED YOU DEAD.

BACK IN -- >> THE GUN COULDN'T BE TRACED.

>> IT JAMMED, BROKEN RIBS AND SO FORTH.

DOES THAT FUEL YOUR PASSION ON THIS ISSUE?

>> I HAVEN'T REALLY CHANGED MY OPINIONS BASED ON THAT INCIDENT.

WHEN I HEAR THIS, UNDERSTAND THIS CONVERSATION CORRECTLY, RIGHT NOW WITH A NEW LAW, IF IT PASSES, THE PERSON WHO IS SO-CALLED PROHIBITED PERSON, A MENTAL PROBLEM OR A HISTORY OF CRIMES, IF ALL HE'S DOING THAT'S WRONG IS HAVING A GUN, HE'S GOING TO WALK AWAY.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER CRIME TO GET THAT GUN.

I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ARREST HIM FOR ASSAULT, BATTERY, BREAKING, BURGLARY, WHATEVER.

IN THE PROCESS OF THAT, FINDING THE GUN.

THEN I CAN GO AND GET HIM FOR THE GUN PROBLEM.

RIGHT NOW, IF ALL I KNOW IS HE'S GOT A GUN, AND IT AIN'T LICENSED, I CAN GET HIM.

THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THEN IF THAT HAS BEEN USED IN CRIMES, I REALLY GOT HIM NOW.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THERE'S THE DIFFERENCE.

WE'RE GIVING UP THAT CHANCE TO GET A GUY ON A FAIRLY SIMPLE CHARGE, YOU DON'T HAVE LICENSE, YOU'VE GOT A GUN, GIVING UP THAT CHANCE TO BRING PEOPLE INTO THE SYSTEM AND TAKE GUNS OUT OF THE SYSTEM.

THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

THE GUN THAT WAS USED ON ME, THEY COULDN'T TRACE IT.

THAT DOES BOTHER ME.

>> THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW.

>> I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED THAT.

>> HE BROKE A CRIME THERE.

>> I'LL INVITE YOU TO DO THE SAME, CAN YOU GIVE ED DELANEY COMFORT?

>> 18 STATES ARE ALREADY DOING THIS.

THE FBI CRIME DATA DOES NOT SHOW THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS IN ANY MORE DANGER, THAT CRIME RATES SKYROCKET AFTER LAWFUL CARRY.

IN FACT, FIVE OR SIX OF THE TOP TEN STATES, SAFEST STATES ARE LAWFUL CARRY STATES.

>> THOSE ARE JUST BY COINCIDENCE, MAINE, VERMONT, NEW HAMPSHIRE, NOT KNOWN AS HOT BEDS OF CRIME TO BEGIN WITH.

>> YOU'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE STATES, ARIZONA, PHOENIX IS A HUGE -- KENTUCKY JUST PASSED IT.

LOUISVILLE IS NOT A SMALL CITY.

>> ALASKA, ARKANSAS, SMALLER POPULATION STATES, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT DIFFER.

>> WE HAVE A DIFFERENT PROBLEM.

APPARENTLY WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO ADDRESS IT.

THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE.

SORRY, INDIANAPOLIS, BY THE WAY, WE DON'T LIKE YOUR BUSES, WE'LL TAKE THOSE AWAY, BUT GUNS YOU CAN HAVE, THANK YOU.

>> THAT IS A CRIME TO BE PROSECUTED.

I WOULD HOPE THAT PROSECUTOR DOES PROSECUTE CRIMES FOR ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF A FIREARM, WE HAVE MADE THAT CLEAR IN THE BILL, THAT IS NOT CHANGING.

>> AND YOU SOUGHT TO BE 18 TO POSSESS, WHICH IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE 21 TO PURCHASE A HANDGUN IN INDIANA.

>> INDIANAPOLIS HAD TWO DAYS OF RIOTS, OVER 8,000, 911 CALLS MADE WITHIN A PERIOD OF 48 HOURS.

NO WAY, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR POLICE TO GET TO YOU IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME TO SAVE YOUR LIFE, OR TO SAVE YOUR FAMILY IN THE EVENT OF A BREAK-IN, OR SOMETHING BAD GOING ON, THAT'S WHY IT IS VERY CRITICAL THAT WE RESPECT PEOPLE'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

>> NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EXISTING LAW, IF YOU'RE AT YOUR PLACE OF BUSINESS, HOME, YOU DON'T NEED A LICENSE TO CARRY.

>> PROTECTIVE ORDER, SOMEBODY IS THREATENING YOU, YOU HAVE A PROTECTIVE ORDER, YOU CAN CIRCUMVENT THIS, GET A GUN AND CARRY IT TEMPORARILY.

>> LAW ABIDING PEOPLE OBEY THE LAW.

THIS IS A LAW THAT COULD GET PEOPLE KILLED.

>> I GOT A GUN IN MY HOUSE RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T NEED A LICENSE.

>> BUT TO CARRY IT.

>> HE COULD CARRY A LONG GUN.

A SHOTGUN.

>> ANYWHERE.

>> WALK DOWN THE STREETS STRAPPING AN AR.

>> HE COULD.

>> WITHOUT A LICENSE.

>> MY EYES MIGHT POP OUT.

>> WHY IS THAT GETTING TRACTION NOW?

IS IT THE RIOTS?

>> LOOK AT INDIANAPOLIS.

MARION COUNTY, LAST YEAR, OVER 200 MURDERS.

YOU STILL REQUIRE A LICENSE TO HAVE A HANDGUN.

OVER 200 MURDERS.

THE CRIME IN MARION COUNTY IS ASTOUNDING.

>> IF THIS BILL IS ENACTED, WILL THE HOMICIDE RATE IN MARION COUNTY GO DOWN?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

>> STOP WORRYING ABOUT US.

STOP IT.

WORRY ABOUT MY BUS, DON'T WORRY ABOUT MY GUN, GO TAKE CARE OF YOUR COUNTY.

>> THIS IS PURE POLITICS, IDEOLOGY, YOU'RE FEEDING THE TGER CALLED THE NRA, THAT -- >> WE'LL GIVE YOU ANOTHER MEDAL.

>> THIS IS WHEN I HATE SAYING WE'RE OUT OF TIME, UNFORTUNATELY.

I HAD A FEELING THIS WOULD BE A LIVELY DISCUSSION, YOU'VE PROVED ME RIGHT.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE, YOU GUYS HAVE A LOT OF INSIGHT, A LOT OF PASSION.

WE THANK YOU FOR SHARING IT WITH OUR VIEWERS, AND LISTENERS ACROSS THE STATE OF INDIANA.

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE BEN SMALTZ OF AUBURN DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE ED DELANEY OF INDIANAPOLIS REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JIM LUCAS OF SEYMOUR AND MARION COUNTY PROSECUTOR RYAN MEARS, A DEMOCRAT.

>> A QUESTION FOR SMOKERS, HOW HIGH WOULD A CIGARETTE TAX HAVE TO BE TO GET YOU TO QUIT.

THE HIGH COST OF ADDICTION ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

>> ED, WE'RE GETTING INTO SOME OF THE PARTICULARS THERE ABOUT AGES, AND THE DEGREES OF FELONY VERSUS MISDEMEANOR, WHAT'S THE 40,000 FOOT PERSPECTIVE AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED ON THIS BILL.

WHERE ARE ISSUES ON THIS?

>> THEY TALKED A LOT, I'M NOT SURE THEY COVERED EVERYTHING, JON.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK THAT THEY OVERLOOKED WAS THERE ARE SOME OTHER PROVISIONS IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT HAVE SOME LITTLE PROVISOS THAT PUT RESTRICTIONS ON SOME OF THOSE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, SUCH AS THE RIGHT TO VOTE.

YOU HAVE TO REGISTER TO VOTE.

THAT IS ONE THING THAT THEY DID NOT COVER THIS MORNING.

AND THAT IS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AS WELL.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS, TOO, OBVIOUSLY THE LOSS OF REVENUE IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WILL CONTINUE TO BE DEBATED, THAT HAD TO GO TO WAYS AND MEANS, HOUSE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS, IT DID HAVE REVENUE IMPLICATIONS, BUT, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS THAT DIDN'T GET DISCUSSED THIS MORNING WAS THAT THERE IS A GROUP CALLED HOOSIER GUN RIGHTS THAT'S REALLY A LITTLE BIT MORE RADICAL THAN THE NRA, REALLY PUSHING FOR A PURE CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY BILL FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, THEY HAVE BEEN REALLY HARD ON REPRESENTATIVE SMALTZ, ON FORMER SPEAKER BOSMA, HOUSE MAJORITY INTO LEADER MATT LAYMAN, HOLDING WORKSHOPS, PUT PRESSURE ON LEGISLATORS TO MAKE THIS BILL HAPPEN.

AND THEY WERE OUT THERE PUSHING AGAIN THIS YEAR, AND THEY ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THE BILL.

AS IT STANDS NOW.

THEY THINK THAT REPRESENTATIVE SMALTZ BASICALLY CRUDE IT UP, THEY SAID THAT IT'S GOT A COUPLE OF POISON PILLS IN THERE, ONE IS THE NEW DATABASE WHICH THEY CALL A FLAWED GOVERNMENT DATABASE, AND THE OTHER THING IS THAT IT DOESN'T TAKE EFFECT UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF 2022 AT THIS POINT, OR MARCH OF 2022.

BUT THE DATABASE IS THE KEY.

AND THE DATABASE MAY BE PROBLEMATIC, BOTH TO CIVIL LIBERTARIANS, AND TO GUN RIGHTS ADVOCATES BECAUSE IT REALLY DOESN'T CARRY ENOUGH CRITERIA, AND IT MAY CREATE A DATABASE THAT PEOPLE LIKE I SAID, BOTH ENDS OF THE SPECTRUM, HAVE ISSUES WITH.

>> WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE SENATE?

DOES THIS BECOME LAW?

>> IT'S GOING TO BE A CLOSE CALL.

IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE SENATE MAJORITY CAUCUS TO OPPOSE THIS, SENATOR JIM TOMS HAS BEEN OUTSPOKEN, ON OTHER GUN RIGHTS ISSUES, IT IS GOING TO BE A VERY DIFFICULT VOTE, AND THE GOVERNOR MAY NOT BE TOTALLY ONBOARD.

>> THAT'S MY NEXT QUESTION, DOES THE GOVERNOR SIGN IT IF IT GETS TO HIS DESK?

>> YEAH, THAT'S ANOTHER TOUGH QUESTION.

WE JUST DON'T KNOW, HE'S BEEN HOLDING HIS HOLSTER CLOSE TO THE VEST, HIS WIFE IS AN NRA CERTIFIED GUN INSTRUCTOR, A VERY GOOD ONE AT THAT.

>> WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU AS ALWAYS FOR YOUR INSIGHT.

>> FOR MORE INFORMATION, VISIT US ON THE WEB AT WFYI.ORG/LAWMAKERS.

YOU CAN ACCESS LIVE STREAMING COVERAGE OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON THE INTERNET, AS WELL.

AND REMEMBER, YOU CAN GET OUR SHOW ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY.

WELL, THAT CONCLUDES ANOTHER EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, I'M JON SCHWANTES ON BEHALF OF WFYI PUBLIC MEDIA AND INDIANA'S OTHER PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS, I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, AND I INVITE YOU TO VISIT WFYI.ORG FOR MORE STATEHOUSE NEWS.

UNTIL NEXT WEEK, TAKE CARE.

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