LIGHTEN OUR LOADS, BUT NOT THE TRUCKING INDUSTRY'S BIGGEST MOVERS AND SHAKERS, THEY'RE DRIVING LEGISLATION THAT WOULD EFFECTIVELY RAISE THE WEIGHT LIMIT FOR MANY OF THE SEMIS THAT TRAVERSE INDIANA'S ROADWAYS, THEY SAY THE PERMIT OVERHAUL WOULD GENERATE, AND REGARDLESS OF THEIR CARGO, CRITICS ARGUE THAT THE PROPOSED CHANGES WOULD WREAK HAVOC ON THE ROADS AND BRIDGES, LEADING TO DEADLIER CRASHES AND UNDERMINE THE ROAD INDUSTRY.

I'M JON SCHWANTES, THIS WEEK'S SHOW, WE'LL WEIGH IN ON THE DEBATE.

INDIANA LAWMAKERS FROM THE STATEHOUSE TO YOUR HOUSE.

>> JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAS TO BE ONE OF THE WEIGHTIEST SUBJECTS WE'VE EVER TACKLED HERE ON INDIANA LAWMAKERS ARE.

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JIM PRESSEL OF ROLLING PRAIRIE, FIRST-YEAR CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE ROADS AND TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE.

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TOM SAUNDERS OF LEWISVILLE, A MEMBER OF THAT PANEL.

PETER MILLS, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER OF THE INDIANA RAIL ROAD COMPANY.

AND KENDELL CULP OF RENSSELAER, PRESIDENT OF THE JASPER COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND IMMEDIATE PAST PRESIDENT OF THE INDIANA ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

NOW, FOR ME, THE LAYMAN, THIS IS COMPLEX, WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT STATUTE, AND I SAW A FORMULA, I GOT SCARED.

I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO AVOID MATH IN THIS CAREER.

WE MAY HAVE DISAGREEMENT DURING THIS DISCUSSION, I'M GUESSING WE WILL.

LET'S SEE IF WE CAN AGREE ON THE EXISTING STATUTE FOR PEOPLE WATCHING AND LISTENING.

FEDERAL LIMIT RIGHT NOW IS 80,000 POUNDS FOR A SEMI, OR A TRACTOR-TRAILER.

INDIANA IN 2014 AUTHORIZED THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION TO ISSUE SPECIAL PERMITS, EXEMPTIONS FOR HAULERS OF CERTAIN COMMODITIES FOR AGRICULTURAL COMMODITIES, INSTEAD OF 80,000 IT WOULD GO UP TO 97,000.

METAL STEEL AND ALUMINUM, 120,000.

WHAT IS ON THE TABLE, THE BILL WOULD BASICALLY MAKE EVERYTHING -- IT WOULD GIVE EVERYBODY THE OPPORTUNITY TO FILE FOR A PERMIT, AN EXEMPTION TO GET -- SEE, I TOLD YOU IT'S COMPLICATED.

LET ME START WITH YOU, JIM PRESSEL, SINCE YOU ARE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE AFOREMENTIONED COMMITTEE.

WHY IS IT WHEN I TALK ABOUT STEEL VERSUS FARM COMMODITIES AND DIFFERENT WEIGHT LIMITS, WHY IS THIS LIKE THAT OLD BRAIN TEASER WHICH WAY IS MORE, A TON OF CANNONBALLS OR A TON OF FEATHERS, WHAT AM I MISSING?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLY DONE IT WAS BECAUSE OF A LOT OF DEMAND FOR STEEL TO MOVE FASTER, DOCK SHORTAGES, AG WAS HAVING TROUBLE MOVING MILK.

1190 WOULD OPEN UP TO ALL COMMODITIES.

IT WILL CAP THE AMOUNT OF NEWCOMERS.

WE DO LIKE 113,000 OF THESE PERMITS A YEAR, JUST ON THOSE COMMODITIES.

>> WHY?

WHY DOES IT MAKE MORE SENSE TO RAISE ALL OF THE SECTORS WHO MIGHT BE HAULING COMMODITIES TO THAT 120,000 POUND THRESHOLD RATHER THAN GO BACK TO THE PRE-2014 THRESHOLD WHICH MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH DIFFICULTY GETTING TO MARKET OR GETTING STEEL THROUGH THE PROCESS, MAYBE WE DO, MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH.

WHY NOT JUST GO BACK.

>> ACTUALLY, IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

IF YOU LOOKED AT THE 113,000 PERMITS THAT WE ISSUED IN SINGLE TRIP PERMITS, THERE'S AN ANNUAL, AND SINGLE-TRIP.

IF WE WERE TO ACTUALLY GO BACKWARDS AND ELIMINATE THE 113,000 SINGLE TRIPS, IT WOULD HAVE ADDED 50,000 MORE TRUCK TRIPS TO MOVE THOSE EXISTING COMMODITIES.

SO WE WOULD BE PUTTING MORE TRUCKS ON THE ROAD AND MORE WEAR AND TEAR.

>> BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY YOUR BILL WOULD DO IS ACTUALLY REDUCE -- I GUESS THIS MAKES SENSE, BIGGER LOADS, FEWER TRUCKS.

>> IT WOULD BE FEWER TRUCKS, AND FEWER TRUCKS MOVING AS LINE HAUL.

ONE OF THE MISCONCEPTIONS THIS HAS BEEN, THIS IS COMING TO A TOWN OR A CITY NEAR YOU.

AND THIS IS INTERSTATE, OR STATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM.

>> INTERSTATE CAN STILL BE FEDERAL.

>> THAT IS PART OF THE -- >> UNLESS THERE IS AN EXEMPTION FROM THE US DEPARTMENT OF -- >> NO, THAT WOULDN'T CHANGE.

THAT IS PART OF THE STATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM.

STATE HIGHWAYS, INTERSTATES, IN ORDER FOR THEM TO USE YOUR LOCAL ROAD, YOU WOULD HAVE TO ACTUALLY PERMIT WITH THAT LOAD.

>> SPECIAL EXEMPTION FROM THAT.

THANKS FOR NOT GETTING INTO AXLES.

EVERYTHING IN MY PREAMBLE WOULD HAVE CHANGED BASED ON HOW MANY OF THEM THERE ARE.

I'M DOING THE BEST I CAN WITH A SUBJECT I DIDN'T NECESSARILY GROW UP WITH.

TOM SAUNDERS, WHAT'S WRONG?

WOULD YOU JUST AS SOON ROLL BACK TO THE PRE-2014 LEVEL?

>> WE STARTED OUT, I THINK WE PERMITTED THE STEEL ROLLS.

THEY WERE HAVING TROUBLE.

WE GAVE THEM AN EXEMPTION.

THE NEXT YEAR SOMEBODY ELSE, AND NEXT YEAR SOMEBODY ELSE, I HAVE AN 8-YEAR-OLD GRANDDAUGHTER, EVERY TIME WE GET READY TO COME TO INDIANAPOLIS, PAPA DON'T GET ON THAT SEMI ROAD.

MY CONCERN IS SAFETY, IT TAKES MORE TIME FOR HEAVIER TRUCKS TO STOP.

WE'VE HAD SEVERAL FATALITIES WHERE TRUCKS JUST RAN OVER CARS AND TOOK OUT THE ENTIRE FAMILY.

I ALSO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT, YEAH, WE'RE PERMITTING THEM ON STATE HIGHWAY, AND I DO AGREE, THE PERMIT WAS $20 IF I'M CORRECT, WE RAISED THAT TO 300 IN THIS BILL.

>> THAT WAS REMOVED.

THE IDEA WAS TO FUND SOME OF THE REPAIRS THAT WOULD BE NEEDED.

BUT I GUESS THAT WAS TOO MUCH OF AN INCREASE.

>> BUT MY CERTAIN IS ONCE THEY TAKE THAT -- TAKE I-70 TO NEW CASTLE, STATE ROAD 3, THEN COUNTY ROAD 300 TO GO OVER TO 130 -- 103 TO THE FACTORY.

THEY ARE NOT GETTING NOTIFICATION, AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO LOCAL ROADS.

MY CONCERN WITH SAFETY, LOCAL ROAD CONDITIONS AND REALLY THE WEAR AND TEAR.

YOU HEAR EXPERTS ON BOTH SIDE, LIKE ATTORNEYS, YOU GET TWO DIFFERENT SIDES, THERE ARE REPORTS OF THE DAMAGE THAT EVEN MORE AXLES, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE SPREAD OUT STILL CAUSES THE WEIGHT.

>> MORE AXLES MEANS LESS DAMAGE TO THE ROADWAYS.

>> THAT'S WHAT ONE GROUP SAYS, THE OTHER GROUP SAYS NO.

>> AND ONE GROUP SAYS FEATHERS ARE HEAVIER THAN CANNONBALLS.

I'M BACK WHERE I STARTED, CONFUSED AS BEFORE.

ALL RIGHT, WE'RE GETTING A SENSE OF THIS DEBATE.

LET'S BRING THE RAIL SECTOR INTO THIS.

NOW YOU HAVE BEEN CEO AND PRESIDENT OF THE INDIANA RAILROAD COMPANY SINCE 2015.

>> GOING ON 6 YEARS.

>> THE ONLY LANDSCAPE, REGULATORY LANDSCAPE THAT YOU KNOW IN THAT ROLE WAS THE ONE PUT IN PLACE IN 2014.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> IN YOUR WORLD OF DRUTHERS, DOES THAT CONTINUE, A ROLLBACK, SOMETHING ELSE ALL TOGETHER, EXCLUSIVE ARRANGEMENT MADE FOR RAIL?

I'M GUESSING PROBABLY FIRST CHOICE.

>> IF I HAD THE ABILITY, I WOULD LIKE TO ROLL IT BACK.

NO DOUBT WE'VE LOST BUSINESS TO HEAVIER TRUCKS.

AND TO ME, AND I THINK TO MY INDUSTRY, IT IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF ECONOMICS, THE LAWS OF ECONOMICS APPLY.

WHEN YOU GIVE TRUCKS THE ABILITY TO HANDLE 120,000 GROSS WEIGHT, WHICH TRANSLATES INTO A 50 TO 80% INCREASE IN THE LADING WEIGHT.

THAT SHIFTS THE COMPETITIVE BALANCE.

WE COMPETE WITH TRUCKS EVERY DAY.

COAL IS A TRADITIONAL MARKET FOR RAILWAYS, THAT IS DECLINING, LONG-TERM SURVIVAL OUR ABILITY TO TAKE TRUCKS OFF THE HIGHWAY.

THINGS LIKE INTERMODAL PRODUCT, TAKEN 40,000 TRUCKS OFF I-65 FROM CHICAGO.

WE HAVE THE ONLY DIRECT WEST COAST INTERNATIONAL SERVICE INTO CENTRAL INDIANA.

SO, YEAH, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IT ROLLED BACK, BY THE WAY, I DID TESTIFY IN SOME OF THE EARLIER -- AS REPRESENTATIVE SAUNDERS POINTS OUT, THIS JUST KEEPS GOING.

SO FIRST IT'S STEEL, THEN IT'S AG, THEN LOGS, THEN MILK, AND WE TESTIFIED TO THAT EFFECT EARLIER, ONCE YOU START PICKING WINNERS IN THE STATE TRANSPORTATION MARKET, IT IS VERY HARD TO JUSTIFY ONLY ALLOWING CERTAIN COMMODITY TO DO THAT.

SO THIS WAS VERY PREDICTABLE.

THIS WON'T STOP IT, BECAUSE YOU'LL CONTINUE TO HAVE THESE DEBATES AROUND THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE BILL.

SO, I DON'T WANT TO DISCOUNT THE SAFETY ISSUE.

IN OUR INDUSTRY, SAFETY IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR CULTURE.

WE ALWAYS SAY TAKE THE SAFE COURSE OF ACTION.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE SAFE COURSE OF ACTION FOR THE STATE OF INDIANA.

BUT I'LL LET THE SHERIFFS, AND THE CHIEFS OF POLICE MAKE THOSE COMPELLING ARGUMENTS.

SO FOR ME, YOU KNOW, THE POINT I'D LIKE TO MAKE, THIS DOES PICK WINNERS AND LOSERS.

THIS PICKS TRUCKS OVER RAIL TRANSPORT.

VERY DIFFICULT FOR US TO COMPETE WITH THESE TRUCKS >> WINNERS AND LOSERS, PROBABLY 2018-19, THERE WAS A PRICK COMPANY, MAYBE IN TERRE HAUTE, SOMEWHERE IN THE WESTERN PART OF THE STATE, THAT SAID WE'RE NOT STEEL, NOT FARM COMMODITY, BUT WE HAVE TO MOVE OUR PRODUCT FROM POINT A TO B, HOW COME WE'RE NOT GETTING A BREAK.

DON'T WORRY, KENDELL CULP, WE'LL GET YOU IN HERE.

YOU BRING UP THE FACT THAT YOUR 250 GIVE OR TAKE MILE NETWORK OF RAIL HAS BEEN LARGELY PRIVATELY FUNDED.

YOU'VE INVESTED IN THAT, AND CREATED THAT INFRASTRUCTURE VERSUS A PUBLICLY FINANCED ROAD NETWORK.

SO DO YOU SEE A FAIRNESS ISSUE THERE, TOO?

>> YEAH, OBVIOUSLY.

SO WE'VE INVESTED OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, $150 MILLION BACK IN INFRASTRUCTURE AND INTO THESE TRUCK COMPETITIVE PRODUCTS.

>> WHEREAS ARGUABLY ROADWAYS, THROUGH TAXATION -- >> TRUCKS ARE USING PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND FACTUALLY, TODAY, THEY'RE NOT PAYING WHAT THEY SHOULD BE PAYING TO USE THE PUBLIC ROADWAYS.

THE JOINT STUDY BETWEEN PURDUE AND INDOT FOUND THAT THEY ONLY PAY 80% OF WHAT THEY SHOULD PAY.

UPDATED POST THE DIESEL TAX INCREASE, ONLY PAY 80% OF WHAT THEY SHOULD.

SUBSIDIZED TODAY.

I THINK ANYTHING WE DO TO ALLOW HEAVIER TRUCKS, MORE COMMODITIES, AND HEAVY TRUCKS JUST CREATES A LOT OF COMPETITIVE HEADWINDS WHEN YOU'RE PICKING WINNERS.

>> KENDELL CULP YOU DRIVE THE LONGEST FROM RENSSELAER.

I WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO DECOMPRESS AND HAVE A BIG OPENING ACT.

YOU WEAR MANY HATS.

YOU'RE AN OFFICER WITH THE STATE FARM, FARMER, IMMEDIATE PAST PRESIDENT OF AN ASSOCIATION.

WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF ASSOCIATIONS THAT SAY THEY'RE NEUTRAL.

THEY HAVE MEMBERS ON BOTH SIDES, ESPECIALLY A LOT OF THE COUNTY AND CITY GOVERNMENT.

TELL US WHERE YOU ARE, MAYBE IN YOUR PERSONAL -- FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE AND THE ORGANIZATIONS YOU REPRESENT.

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, FROM A COUNTY COMMISSIONER STANDPOINT, WE HAVE A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITIES, BUT ONE THING THAT'S NEAR AND DEAR TO US IS TO MAINTAIN OUR INFRASTRUCTURE WITHIN OUR COUNTIES.

SO ROADS AND BRIDGES, OBVIOUSLY THAT'S THE BIG THING.

WE'RE THANKFUL THAT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY A FEW YEARS AGO FOUND US MORE ROAD FUNDING THROUGH COMMUNITY CROSSINGS PROGRAM, WAS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

SO IT'S ALLOWED US TO IMPROVE OUR LOCAL INFRASTRUCTURE A GREAT DEAL.

SO WE'RE VERY PROTECTIVE OF THAT.

I'M IN THE NORTHWEST PART OF THE STATE, AND SO WE POST OUR ROADS IN THE WINTER TIME FOR WEIGHT LIMITS FOR FROST LAW TO PROTECT THOSE ROADS FROM BEING TORN UP OR DAMAGED FROM HEAVY VEHICLES.

THAT BEING SAID, WE ALSO KNOW WE NEED ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, WE NEED TO HAVE GROWTH AND WE HAVE TO HAVE BUSINESSES THAT CAN MAKE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, AND MOVE THOSE MOST OF THOSE IN OUR AREA, SOME RAIL, MOST OF THAT IS TRUCK.

SO THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE IS 65,000 MILES OF COUNTY ROADS IN INDIANA, PLUS TOWNS, ROADS AND STREETS.

THE VAST MAJORITY ARE LOCALLY OPERATED, LOCALLY MAINTAINED INFRASTRUCTURE WITH COUNTY -- WITH ROADS AND BRIDGES.

OF COURSE, THE BRIDGES ARE MOSTLY ALL CONTROLLED BY THE COUNTY.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF INVESTMENT IN THAT.

AND WE JUST BY NATURE WE WANT TO PROTECT THAT.

SO THERE IS A CONCERN, OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU ALLOW HEAVIER VEHICLES ON YOUR ROADS.

NOW, GRANTED, THIS BILL DIRECTS THIS ON STATE ROADS.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT WHAT COULD BE THE NEXT STEP?

I-65 RUNS NORTH TO SOUTH THROUGH JASPER COUNTY, WE'RE A LONG COUNTY.

JUST THE OTHER DAY WE HAD AN ACCIDENT, AND WHEN THEY CLOSED ONE LANE 65, ALL THOSE TRUCKS GET OFF, ALL THOSE VEHICLES GET OFF.

AND SO WHILE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO STAY ON STATE ROAD ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A MARKED DETOUR, WE ALL KNOW WE LOOK FOR SHORTCUTS, AND WE TAKE THE FIRST COUNTY ROAD WE COME TO TO CONNECT TO ANOTHER ROAD.

SO IT BECOMES AN ENFORCEMENT ISSUE.

SO IT'S NOT ALLOWED, BUT WHO IS GOING TO PULL THOSE OVER AND WEIGH THEM AND SAY THEY'RE NOT IN COMPLIANCE AND ISSUE A TICKET >> WOULD FARM BUREAU BE AS ENTHUSIASTIC?

IF IN FACT THEY WEREN'T ALREADY CARVED OUT THROUGH AN EXEMPTION, WOULD THE FACT THAT THEY WOULD BE IN THE GROUP LINKED IN WITH, SAY, THE BRICK MANUFACTURERS, WOULD THAT SHAPE THEIR PERSPECTIVE?

>> AGRICULTURE HAS THAT EXEMPTION, OBVIOUSLY.

WE REALLY DON'T HAVE A DOG IN THIS FIGHT, SO TO SPEAK.

THE EXEMPTION IS ALREADY THERE.

AND THAT'S UTILIZED.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THAT'S A VERY SEASONABLE USE, FARMERS DURING FALL HARVEST, THAT'S WHEN WE'RE ON THE ROADS WITH THOSE TRUCKS, IT'S FOR A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

>> FROM 97, THE GOOD NEWS, FROM 97,000 LIMIT TO 120.

HUFF HEARD SOME OF THE COMPLAINTS, JIM PRESSEL, THE DAMAGE PERHAPS, THE EXTRA WEAR AND TEAR ON ROADS, INCLUDING POTENTIALLY NON-STATE ROADS, AND THE SAFETY ISSUE.

HOW WOULD YOU ADDRESS THIS?

>> I THINK IT'S INTERESTING, IN WHAT I HEAR, NO OFFENSE TO EVERYBODY HERE, BUT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BIG TRUCKS IN GENERAL, RIGHT?

SO TO THE ACCIDENT, TO KENDALL'S POINT ABOUT THE ACCIDENT, WE HAVE TO GET OFF, REROUTE WHEN GOING DOWN A COUNTY ROAD, ISN'T THAT ALL BIG TRUCKS, ISN'T THAT 80,000 POUNDS?

YOU'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE THAT WEAR AND TEAR IN THOSE INSTANCES.

>> NOW SOME OF THE MONEY THAT WAS THERE IN THE PERMITTING PROCESS, INCREASED, THAT'S GONE.

WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM TO REPAIR?

>> JUST IN AN INCIDENT WHERE THERE IS AN ACCIDENT ON 65 AND NOW EVERYBODY IS DIVERTED OUT THROUGH THE COUNTY.

THEY WOULD TECHNICALLY BE OVERWEIGHT ON THOSE COUNTY ROADS AT 80,000 POUNDS.

>> YET THIS IS YOUR CONCERN.

WELL, YOU HAVE THE TWO CONCERNS, TOM SAUNDERS, AGAIN, THAT AS YOUR GRANDDAUGHTER SUGGESTED THE TRUCK ROAD IS NOT SAFE.

GRAVITY BEING GRAVITY.

>> I THINK REALLY INTERESTING IS COLLECTING THE DATA.

A LOT OF THIS THAT I HAVE WORKED ON HAS BEEN DATA DRIVEN.

I MENTIONED THE 113,000 TRIP PERMITS IN 2019.

I ALWAYS GO TO 2019, 2020 NUMBERS WERE REALLY LOW, BECAUSE OF THE FIRST QUARTER.

IN 2019, THROUGH THE MOTOR CARRIERS, INDIANA STATE POLICE, THERE WERE 165 ACCIDENTS ON PERMITTED TRUCKS.

AND IT IS A VERY WIDE NET.

THE INCLUSION IS OVER WEIGHT, OVER HEIGHT, OVER LENGTH.

SO, OUT OF ALL THOSE GROUPS, AND 113,000 TRIPS, WHICH WOULD BE A LITTLE OVER 14 MILLION MILES, THERE WAS 165 PROPERTY DAMAGE CLAIMS, ZERO FATALITIES, THREE INJURIES.

>> TOM SAUNDERS, ADDRESS THAT.

>> I LOOKED AT SOME DOCUMENTATION LAST NIGHT.

AND SOME OF THAT AGREES WITH THAT AND SOME OF IT DOESN'T.

IT'S JUST -- IT TAKES MORE TIME FOR THOSE TRUCKS TO STOP.

AND AS AN EXAMPLE, LAST SUMMER I-70 WAS UNDER CONSTRUCTION IN MY DISTRICT.

US-40, SO WE GOT TWO GOOD ROADS RUNNING THROUGH EAST AND WEST.

BUT I JUST WATCHED ALL THOSE TRUCKS GET OFF THE ROAD AND ONTO -- I WAS WORKING ON A HOUSE ON US-40 AND AN OVER HEIGHT TRUCK CAME BY AND HIT A CABLE WIRE WHICH ALMOST TOOK THE GUY'S HEAD OFF THAT WAS WORKING WITH ME.

AND THAT WAS PROBABLY NEVER REPORTED.

SO I'M SURE THERE IS ACCIDENTS OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT REPORTED.

TO YOUR STATEMENT, YEAH, THE HEAVY TRUCKS ARE ON COUNTY ROADS BUT WE CAN PUT HEAVIER TRUCKS ON THAT, THAT JUST TEARS IT UP.

>> IT'S MINIMAL.

THE AMOUNT OF THE INCREASE IS 8500 TO WHAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW.

SO IF WE DO NOTHING, IF THIS BILL DIES, THE AMOUNTS, AND YOU CAN SEE THE TRENDS AND THE AMOUNT OF PERMITS WE ISSUE EVERY YEAR FOR THREE COMMODITIES, CONTINUES TO GROW.

>> JUST TO SHOW YOU HOW CONFUSING THIS IS IN TERMS OF HOW THE ALLIANCES WE WERE COMMENTING ABOUT EARLIER ABOUT, COUNTIES AND TOWNS, AND THEIR ASSOCIATIONS, THE MOTOR TRUCK ASSOCIATION IS VERY MUCH ENTHUSIASTIC.

THE INDEPENDENT OWNERS AND OPERATORS ARE NOT.

AND THEY'RE CONCERNED.

>> DURING OUR HEARING, THERE WAS A GENTLEMEN CAME UP INDEPENDENT AND TESTIFIED, AFTER IT WAS OVER I WALKED OVER AND THANKED HIM FOR COMING, REALLY, THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS COME OVER.

THEY'RE SPLIT ON THE ISSUE ALSO.

>> AS YOU GO ABOUT LOBBYING, YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER IN THE PROCESS.

WHAT IS THE MOST POTENT, A COUPLE THINGS HAVE COME UP, THE ROAD WEAR AND TEAR AND SAFETY.

WHAT AS YOU TALK TO LAWMAKERS AND BUTTON HOLE THEM AND SAY THIS IS WHY NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD IDEA, WHAT DO YOU THINK REALLY RESONATES?

>> I THINK THE SAFETY ISSUE RESONATES, AGAIN, I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON SAFETY.

TO ME, A SIMPLE LOSS OF PHYSICS, A HEAVIER OBJECT.

80,000 POUND OBJECT, GOD FORBID COLLIDES WITH A CAR -- WE CAN TALK ABOUT FREQUENCY, OR LIKELIHOOD THAT THE HEAVY TRUCK WILL GET IN AN ACCIDENT, BUT I THINK WHEN THEY DO, AGAIN, THIS IS THE TESTIMONY I'VE SEEN, OBVIOUSLY IT IS GOING TO CAUSE MORE DAMAGE.

THAT IS ONE ISSUE.

THE OTHER THING THAT RESONATES WITH PEOPLE IS THAT CHAIRMAN TALKED ABOUT HOW MANY TRUCKS HAVE BEEN TAKEN OFF THE ROAD WITH THE ISSUANCE OF THESE PERMITS, I WOULD SAY THAT SOME OF -- TAKEN OFF THE RAILS.

MORE BIG TRUCKS DOESN'T MEAN FEWER TRUCKS.

IT MEANS MORE TRUCKS.

BECAUSE THEY WILL BE IN MODAL SHIFT, SIMPLE ECONOMIC LAW.

>> CAN YOUR INDUSTRY SURVIVE THE PASSAGE OR ENACTMENT OF THIS STATUTE?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU WE'LL NOT SURVIVE.

IT WILL BE PROBLEMATIC.

WE MAKE LONG-TERM INVESTMENTS AND WE LIE ON A STABLE PREDICTABLE REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT TO DO THAT, AND WE'RE BUYING THINGS IN THE LAST 50, 40, 30 YEARS.

THE RAIL INDUSTRY IS ONE OF THE MOST CAPITAL INTENSIVE INDUSTRIES, PERIOD.

WE SPEND SHORT LINE SPEND ABOUT 30% OF EVERY REVENUE DOLLAR BACK INTO INFRASTRUCTURE, ROLLING STOCK AND NEW PRODUCTS AND FACILITIES.

CLASS ONES 20, 20%.

SO, IT RANKS ACROSS ALL INDUSTRIES ONE OF THE MOST CAPITAL INTENSIVE INDUSTRIES.

AS YOU SEE RAILS LOSE BUSINESS TO TRUCK, OUR ABILITY TO MAKE THOSE LONG-TERM INVESTMENTS WILL CERTAINLY BE HINDERED.

AND I THINK TOUGH DECISIONS, LONG-TERM, YOU'LL HAVE A SMALLER RAIL NETWORK IN THE STATE OF INDIANA.

>> KENDELL CULP, WE'VE HEARD SUGGESTIONS, WE'LL SEE THESE TRUCKS CERTAINLY LATER ON, YOU'RE IN RENSSELAER, ARE YOU WORRIED 18-WHEELERS ARE GOING TO BE HAULING DOWN ON MAIN STREET IF THERE IS A MAIN STREET, I ASSUME EVERY TOWN HAS A MAIN STREET.

HOW SERIOUS IS THAT CONCERN?

>> THEY ALREADY ARE.

OUR MAIN STREET HAPPENS TO BE A STATE HIGHWAY.

>> I KNEW THAT, I WAS JUST QUIZZING YOU ON THAT.

>> BUT CERTAINLY.

AND IF THEY STAY WHERE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE, IF EVERYTHING GOES FINE THEY'RE ON STATES AND INTERSTATES AND STATE HIGHWAYS, IT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

THAT'S WHAT THIS BILL ADDRESSES, JUST THE FACT THAT IF THEY GET OFF, OR IF THAT OPENS THE GATE FOR BASICALLY WE'RE GOING TO GO ANYWHERE BECAUSE THERE'S NOT THE ENFORCEMENT, THE OTHER PART OF THIS, ARE THE BRIDGES, THE 13,000 BRIDGES THAT ARE IN INDIANA THAT ARE MAINTAINED BY LOCAL UNITS OF GOVERNMENT.

THOSE ALL HAVE TO BE POSTED EVERY TWO YEARS, YOU HAVE AN INSPECTION PROGRAM.

AND IN OUR COUNTY, JASPER COUNTY HAS THE LEAST NUMBER OF POSTED BRIDGES OF ANY COUNTY IN INDIANA BECAUSE WE'VE INVESTED OVER THE DECADES IN THAT INFRASTRUCTURE.

WHILE WE'VE MADE THAT INVESTMENT, WE WANT TO PROTECT THAT INVESTMENT.

NOW, THEY'RE THERE FOR USE.

WHATEVER LEGALLY LIMITS THEY'RE ALLOWED TO HAVE, THEY'RE OPEN TO ANYBODY TO USE, AND THAT NEEDS TO CONTINUE.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE PROTECTING THAT INFRASTRUCTURE, BECAUSE WE WANT IT TO BE MAINTAINED AND USED.

AGAIN, IF YOU LOOK AT LARGER TRUCKS WITH MORE AXLES, SO THAT'S MORE SQUARE INCHES OF RUBBER ON THE ROAD.

THAT SPREADS THAT WEIGHT OUT.

THERE ARE STUDIES THAT THE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRIES THE MORE YOU CAN DISTRIBUTE THAT WEIGHT ON RUBBER ON THE ASPHALT, THE EASIER, THE BETTER IT IS, THE SAFER IT IS ON THE ROAD.

AND NOT TO DESTRUCT THE ROAD.

I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT ON THAT SIDE, TOO, THERE IS A POSITIVE TO HAVING MORE AXLES ON THE TRUCK.

YOU CAN DISTRIBUTE THAT HEAVY LOAD MORE EVENLY AND YOU HAVE LESS DAMAGE.

SO IT'S NOT ALL A NEGATIVE.

I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'RE LOOKING AT BOTH SIDE.

BOTTOM LINE, I DON'T THINK COUNTIES ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THIS AS LONG AS TRUCKS STAY ON STATE HIGHWAYS.

IT'S THOSE INSTANCES THEY HAVE TO GET OFF THAT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT.

>> HOW DO YOU ENFORCE THAT?

ANECDOTALLY THERE HAVE BEEN TRUCKS THAT DO VENTURE ON ROADS THEY SHOULDN'T BE ON.

A YEAR AGO THEY FOUND SOMEBODY THAT WAS 100,000 POUNDS OVER THE LIMIT.

I MEAN I'M SURPRISED THAT EVEN WOULD CHUG ALONG >> I'M SURE WE DIDN'T PERMIT THAT >> THAT WAS NOT.

FEAR NOT, THAT WAS NOT WOOD CHIPS OR STEEL.

BUT, I MEAN, IS THAT ANOTHER ISSUE, OR DO YOU EVEN ATTEMPT TO DEAL WITH THAT PART.

>> I THINK IT'S A VALID POINT.

HOW DO YOU ADDRESS WHERE EVEN THE 80,000-POUND TRUCKS MAY GO?

HOW DO YOU -- IT'S THROUGH AN ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM, THAT'S GOT TO BE DONE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

WITH THE HEAVIER TRUCKS, THE PERMITTED TRUCKS, EVEN WITH MORE AXLES GETTING INTO THE LOCAL -- THE LOCAL ROADS WILL SAY GETTING TO THAT MANUFACTURER.

IT IS ALSO INTERESTING TO POINT OUT, OR NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT IS THAT WE ROUTE THESE TRUCKS.

YOU JUST DON'T GET TO GO -- IT IS PART OF THE PERMITTING PROCESS.

AND I THINK IT WENT LIVE FEBRUARY 8.

WE'VE -- THROUGH DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE AND INDOT WE'VE COLLECTIVELY COME UP WITH A REALLY GOOD PIECE OF SOFTWARE WHERE THIS IS DONE ALL ONLINE AND THE ROUTING IS THERE UP TO WHERE THEY GET OFF >> WE DON'T HAVE WEIGHT LIMITS, BUT TIME LIMITS.

>> NOT UNTIL THEY GET ON LOCAL ROAD.

>> THAT'S THE BIG KEY.

WE WILL SEE WHERE THIS BILL GOES, AND IF IT'S ENACTED, WE'LL SEE WHERE IT LEADS US, IF NOT, I'M GUESSING IT MIGHT COME UP AGAIN IN A FUTURE SESSION, SINCE YOU'VE HAD IT A FEW TIMES BEFORE.

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JIM PRESSEL OF ROLLING PRAIRIE.

REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE TOM SAUNDERS OF LEWISVILLE.

PETER MILLS OF THE INDIANA RAIL ROAD COMPANY.

AND JASPER COUNTY COMMISSIONER KENDELL CULP OF THE INDIANA ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE AND SHARING YOUR INSIGHTS.

>> WE'LL BE TALKING BUDGET ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH INDIANA LAWMAKERS ANALYST ED FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE INSIGHT, PART OF HANNAH NEWS SERVICE.

ED, WE TALKED ABOUT RAIL LINES, ROADWAYS, WE CAN'T LEAVE AVIATION OUT OF THIS, GIVE US THE 30 OR 40,000 FOOT PERSPECTIVE ON THIS ISSUE?

>> SO, I GUESS NOW WE'RE ACROSS CLOUDS OF AMERICA IN ADDITION TO BEING THE CROSSROADS.

THAT'S REALLY A GOOD PLACE TO START BECAUSE INDIANA IS A MAJOR LOGISTICS HUB IN ALL SENSES OF THE WORD, AND WE'VE GOT THE FEDEX MINI HUB, THE INDIANAPOLIS AIRPORT, THE UPS MINI HUB THERE AS WELL.

AND THOSE ENTITIES WORK WITH THE TRUCKING AND THE RAIL INDUSTRY WITH THEIR TRANS MODAL FORMS OF TRANSPORTATION, AND LOGISTICS.

SO ACTUALLY INDIANA IS VERY ECONOMICALLY INVOLVED IN THE WHOLE LOGISTICS INDUSTRY, AND THIS BILL -- THIS WHOLE ISSUE MAKES SENSE FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

BUT WE'RE DEALING WITH TO A CERTAIN EXTENT THE QUESTIONS OF EMOTION AND PUBLIC SAFETY AGAINST THE ECONOMICS OF THE SITUATION, AND WHEN YOU DEAL WITH ECONOMICS, YOU ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SUBSIDIES, YOU HEARD THE RAIL PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW THEY HAVE TO REINVEST THEIR OWN MONEY IN THEIR BUSINESS, AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE'RE SEEING THE TAXPAYERS ACTUALLY SUBSIDIZE THE TRUCKING INDUSTRY THROUGH WHAT WE PAY IN TAXES FOR OUR STATE HIGHWAYS, AND LOCAL ROADS.

>> DO YOU THINK THIS LEGISLATION, WHETHER IT PREVAILS OR FAILS, HAS ANY CHANCE OF CHANGING OUR STATUS AS A CROSSROADS OF AMERICA?

>> WELL, THE SHORT RUN, WE'RE SEEING BIG SUPPLY CHAIN DISRUPTIONS AFTER THE PANDEMIC, AND CERTAINLY THE ABILITY TO INCREASE THE TRANSPORTATION CAPACITY OF THE STATE IS VERY IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY TO THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY AT THIS POINT.

SO, YES, THAT COULD BE ADVANTAGEOUS, BUT YOU ALSO HEARD THE PANELIST ESSENTIALLY BE A LITTLE BIT CONFLICTED ON EVERYTHING, WHEN YOU HEARD PHRASES LIKE AT THE SAME TIME, THAT BEING SAID, NO OFFENSE TO MY OTHER PANELISTS, THERE REALLY ARE TWO SIDES ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE.

>> AND DO HOOSIERS, EVERY MOTORISTS ARE CERTAINLY AFFECTED, DO HOOSIERS REALLY GET THIS IS A SIGNIFICANT ISSUE REGARDLESS WHERE YOU ARE ON THE DEBATE?

>> I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND THE EMOTIONS OF IT, I'M NOT SO SURE THAT THERE AS WELL VERSED IN THE ECONOMICS OF IT, AND THE TIMELINESS OF THE ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE.

AGAIN, WITH RESPECT TO INVENTORY SHORTAGES, AND SUPPLY CHAIN DISRUPTIONS.

AT LEAST WE DON'T HAVE A SUEZ CANAL.

>> NO BLOCKAGE OF THE RIVER.

ED, AS ALWAYS, APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT, LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FOR MORE INFORMATION, EPISODE STREAMS AND OTHER CONTENT, VISIT US ON THE WEB AT WFYI.ORG/LAWMAKERS.

AND REMEMBER, YOU CAN GET OUR SHOW ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY, WELL THAT CONCLUDES ANOTHER EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON BEHALF OF WFYI PUBLIC MEDIA AND INDIANA'S OTHER PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS, I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, AND I INVITE YOU TO VISIT WFYI.ORG FOR MORE STATEHOUSE NEWS.

UNTIL NEXT WEEK, TAKE CARE.

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