BOOST THE STATE'S TAX ON CIGARETTES IS FILLED WITH STATISTICS - ON BOTH SIDES.

ACTUALLY, THERE ARE MORE THAN TWO SIDES IN THIS DEBATE, BUT WE'LL GET TO THAT LATER.

TWO OF THE MOST PERTINENT STATS ARE THESE: INDIANA, ACCORDING TO THE CDC HAS THE FOURTH HIGHEST SMOKING RATE IN THE COUNTRY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE STATE'S CURRENT CIGARETTE TAX RANKS 39TH NATIONWIDE.

HI, I'M JON SCHWANTES, AND ON THIS EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS, WE'LL EXPLORE WHETHER CHANGING THE LATTER CAN ALTER THE FORMER - AND, IF SO, BY HOW MUCH.

DON'T GO AWAY INDIANA LAWMAKERS - FROM THE STATEHOUSE TO YOUR HOUSE.

>> AND JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THE PUSH TO INCREASE INDIANA'S CIGARETTE TAX ARE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JULIE OLTHOFF OF CROWN POINT REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE ANN VERMILLION OF MARION MIKE RIPLEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF HEALTHCARE POLICY AND EMPLOYMENT LAW AT THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND BRYAN HANNON, INDIANA GOVERNMENT RELATIONS DIRECTOR FOR THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

A COUPLE CAVEATS, I'LL START WITH.

PEOPLE WHO WATCH THE SHOW SAY, HEY, THERE'S A LOT OF REPUBLICANS ON THIS PANEL, I DIDN'T HEAR DEMOCRATS.

ONE OF YOU IS A FORMER REPUBLICAN STATE REP, GO UNNAMED, MIKE RIPLEY.

CLEARLY LOADED BY PARTY.

THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT DOES NOT BREAK DOWN AROUND PARTY LINES.

AND WE'LL ALSO SEE DURING THE DISCUSSION THAT MOST OF YOU ARE TO VARYING DEGREES SUPPORTIVE OF THE PROPOSED TAX INCREASE, WE HAVE INVITED OPPONENTS UNABLE TO JOIN US, FOR THOSE THINKING WE'RE STACKING THE DECK, YOU NOW KNOW.

LET'S TALK WITH A PROBING QUESTION.

JULIE OLTHOFF, YOU USED TO STEAL WINSTONS FROM A MOTHER'S NEIGHBOR.

YOU'VE BEEN SUPPORTING THE TAX, IS THIS SOME KIND OF GUILT THING?

>> PENANCE.

IF THAT'S NOT THE REASON, WHAT IS?

>> PEOPLE ASKED, HAVE YOU EVER SMOKED, I ALWAYS SAY, SURE I HAVE, AS TEENAGED GIRLS, MY FRIEND AND I STOLE HER FATHER'S WINSTONS, HARD CORE CIGARETTES, YOU KNOW, THEN WE WENT UNDER THE BLEACHERS OVER AT THE SOFTBALL FIELD BECAUSE WE WERE SO COOL AND WE WERE GOING TO TRY SMOKING, WE DID NOTHING BUT COUGH AND GAG.

WE DECIDED WE WOULD JUST INHALE.

WE WALKED AROUND ALL COOL, LIKE THAT IS.

>> I'VE HEARD SOME POLITICIANS SAY THEY NEVER INHALED.

YOU'RE THE OPPOSITE.

>> I STARTED, YEAH.

>> AND I'M GUESSING THAT'S NOT WHY YOU PROPOSE THIS BILL, YOU HAVE A SEPARATE BILL, NOW IT'S IN THE BUDGET BILL.

WE COULD GET TO THAT PARTICULARS, WHY THE PUSH FOR AN INCREASE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WELL, IT'S FOR A COUPLE REASONS.

IF YOU WANT TO PUT ON YOUR MONEY HAT, MEDICAID COSTS KEEP GOING UP AND UP, AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY TARGETED THAT -- WE PAY 2.9 BILLION IN HEALTHCARE COSTS TOWARDS SMOKING RELATED DISEASES.

AND THEN 590 MILLION OF THAT IS MEDICAID.

SO THAT IS LIKE -- >> BUT YOUR BILL INITIALLY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY GOING TO MEDICAID, YOU HAD IT GOING TO THE GENERAL FUND.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WE WERE TRUSTING WAYS AND MEANS TO EARMARK GOOD INITIATIVES.

>> YOU ARE HAPPY IT IS SHOWING.

>> WE FOUGHT FOR IT TO GO SOMEWHERE TO TIE IT TOGETHER.

>> MONEY, WHAT'S THE OTHER?

MONEY IS ONE REASON, AND THE OTHER?

>> SO MUCH PAIN AND SUFFERING.

I HAVE A FRIEND WHO STARTED SMOKING WHEN HE WAS 13.

WE ALL HAVE THESE STORIES, AND HE ALMOST HAD HIS LEG CUT OFF BECAUSE OF BLOOD CLOTS.

HE'S 50.

SO HE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL RECENTLY, GOT COVID, WAS THERE FOR A COUPLE WEEKS.

NOW HE'S HOME, DOING WELL.

AND HE STOPPED SMOKING BECAUSE OF THAT INCIDENT.

SO, HIS BROTHER SAID HE'S GOING TO TAKE A BASEBALL BAT TO HIS LEGS IF HE STARTS AGAIN.

BUT WE'VE ALL EXPERIENCED THAT.

WE LOVE PEOPLE WHO SMOKE, AND WE DON'T WANT THEM HURT.

>> ANN VERMILLION YOUR HEAD IS SHAKING, IN PART BECAUSE OF YOUR PUBLIC POLICY STANCE AND YOUR BACKGROUND AS A HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATOR, NOW YOU'RE A HEALTHCARE POLICY CONSULTANT.

HAS THAT SHAPED YOUR VIEW ON THIS, OBVIOUSLY I THINK YOU'RE CLEARLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE NOTION OF A TAX INCREASE.

>> IT HAS.

WORKING WITH HOOSIER PATIENTS FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS, ANY OF US IN THAT SPACE, WE SAT BY THOSE THAT ARE HAVING CANCER TREATMENTS, AND SO A LOT OF TIMES WHEN PATIENTS ARE GOING THROUGH THIS CANCER TREATMENTS, CHEMO OR RADIATION, WE SIT AND TALK TO THEM WHILE THEY'RE THERE, THEY COME QUITE OFTEN.

AND YOU GET REALLY REAL, AND YOU HEAR THEM SAYING, OH, ANN, IF I HAD JUST NOT TAKEN A PUFF, AND OR I WISH I WOULD HAVE QUIT SOONER.

AND SO YOU GET TO SEE THEIR STRUGGLE.

LUNG CANCER FOR ONE, IT IS A VERY PAINFUL OUTCOME.

IF YOU HAVE TO MOVE INTO THOSE LATE STAGES OF LUNG CANCER.

AND SO YOU HAVE -- AND LIKE JULIE SAID, WE HAVE OUR FAMILY MEMBERS THAT HAVE JUST STRUGGLED, AND I THINK WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW MANY, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PERCENTAGE S I THINK THE LAST TIME I READ, IT WAS 60 TO 70% OF THOSE THAT SMOKE HAVE TRIED TO STOP.

SO WE KNOW THAT OUR HOOSIERS ARE TRYING TO STOP.

THE OTHER PART OF THAT CONVERSATION IS SO MANY OF THEM SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, ONCE THE AMOUNT JUST GOT -- I STARTED LOOKING AT MY FINANCING, AND THAT DOLLAR AMOUNT THAT I WAS SPENDING ON A BAD HABIT, I DECIDED NOT TO.

SO I'M A PROPONENT THAT IF YOU LOOK AT OUR STATES AROUND US THAT HAVE INCREASED THAT TAX, YOU IMMEDIATELY SEE, AND IN THE FUTURE, HEALTHIER HOOSIERS, HEALTHIER RESIDENTS, IN THEIR STATE, AND I THINK THAT EQUATES TO BUSINESSES THAT ARE SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY ON CHRONIC DISEASES.

>> WHAT A SET-UP, DID YOU PAY HER TO BE YOUR OPENING ACT?

WE SHOULD POINTED OUT, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT FAMILY MEMBERS AND SO FORTH, HOOSIERS, ONE IN FIVE, ACCORDING TO THE CDC, 21.1% OF ADULTS, AND THEN 23%, I BELIEVE OF HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS.

SO, I GUESS FOR THOSE WHO ARE GIVING THE -- IF YOU CAN STOP THIS PRACTICE EARLY ON, THERE IS FERTILE GROUND.

>> I WANT TO SAY -- >> I GUESS NOT GOING TO -- >> I'M SORRY, OUR PREGNANCY RATE OF SMOKING RATE AND PREGNANCY IS ONE OF THE WORST IN THE NATION.

SO I THINK FOR US TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE THAT ARE GOING THROUGH THEIR PREGNANCY, WHICH MEANS THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY BEEN ADDICTED TO THAT TOBACCO, AND NOW BECOME PREGNANT.

THOSE ARE ALSO A NUMBER THAT I WORRY, WE TALK ABOUT ADULTS, AND WE TALK ABOUT OUR NUMBERS OF THOSE THAT SMOKE, BUT I ALSO THINK ABOUT OUR WOMEN THAT WOULD LOVE TO STOP DURING PREGNANT AND CAN'T.

>> ALL RIGHT.

VERY GOOD.

THAT'S A GOOD POINT TO MAKE SINCE WE ARE NUMBERS IN THAT REGARD, A CATEGORY WE ARE AMONG THE LEADERS AND DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO BE.

WHAT IS THE BUSINESS IMPACT HERE, MIKE?

>> WE HAVE BEEN REALLY LOOKING AT TRYING TO GET INDIANA HEALTHY, ON NUMEROUS FRONTS, AND SMOKING IS ONE OF THOSE.

WE KNOW THE DATA, IT COST INDIANA BUSINESSES ABOUT $6 BILLION A YEAR, PLUS OR MINUS 100 MILLION OR TWO.

AND THAT'S RUNNING MATED TO BOTH THE HEALTHCARE COST AND ALSO THE SMOKING RITUALS THAT YOU KNOW, TAKING SMOKING BREAKS, LACK OF PRODUCTIVITY, ABSENTEEISM, ALL OF THOSE THINGS COMBINED.

THOSE ARE DOLLARS THAT WE'RE SPENDING ON THE HEALTH OF OUR EMPLOYEES THAT CAN'T GO TO INCREASED BENEFITS SOMEWHERE ELSE, INCREASED PAY, INVESTMENT IN OTHER THINGS.

SO, WE THINK THAT IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, WE KNOW THAT THE NUMBERS, IF WE CAN GET A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE CIGARETTE TAX, WE KNOW VERY WELL THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO STOP SMOKING, AND THAT'S GOING TO IMPACT OUR BOTTOM LINE.

>> YOUR ORGANIZATION, YOU'VE BEEN PART OF PERHAPS THE LEADING PROPONENT OF THIS FOR PROBABLY SIX, SEVEN SESSIONS.

>> WE STARTED -- THE -- >> 20 PLUS.

>> WE STARTED, THERE WERE JUST FIVE OF US ORIGINALLY, WE WERE ONE OF THE CHARTER MEMBERS.

THAT'S LOOKING AT ALL KIND OF PARAMETERS IN RELATION TO HEALTH.

BUT SMOKING IS REALLY THE LOW HANGING FRUIT.

THE THING WE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO FIX, IT SEEMS WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS SEVERAL YEARS.

>> I DO WANT TO GET TO WHY NOW.

>> IT'S BEEN DIFFICULT.

>> I WANT TO -- LOTS TO TALK ABOUT.

YOU'VE HEARD MONEY ARGUMENTS.

YOUR STANDPOINT, THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY, IS THIS A MONEY ISSUE, IS THIS JUST A QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE?

GIVE ME YOUR ELEVATOR SPEECH ON WHY THIS MAKES SENSE.

>> TO PUT IT THROUGH THE CANCER LENS, ALMOST ONE THIRD OF ANSWER DEATHS IN INDIANA ARE ATTRIBUTABLE TO SMOKING.

WE THINK IT IS HIGH TIME TO WAGE THE FIGHT.

IT IS NOT JUST CANCER, OTHERS HAVE ALLUDED TO, WE HAVE HIGH INFANT MORTALITY RATES, CARDIOVASCULAR, DIABETES, WE RANK POORLY ON A NUMBER OF METRICS, MANY LINKED TO HIGH TOBACCO USE RATES.

IF WE'RE GOING TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT IMPROVING HEALTH, AS MIKE SAID, THIS IS THE LOW HANGING FRUIT, A DOWNPAYMENT ON THAT EFFORT.

WE'VE ADVOCATED FOR A SIGNIFICANT CIGARETTE TAX INCREASE, WE THINK OUR PROBLEMS ARE SIGNIFICANT.

WE HAVE BEEN LIVING A QUIET CRISIS.

OVER 11,000 DIE EVERY YEAR FROM A SMOKING RELATED DISEASE.

IT IS CRISIS.

IF WE ARE GOING TO REVERSE COURSE, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT.

WE'VE JOINED WITH THE CHAMBER AND OTHER GROUPS TO SUPPORT THE $2 INCREASE.

>> WHEN YOU SAID SIGNIFICANT INCREASE, THAT TERM AS YOU DEFINE IT IS $2 IN ADDITIONAL TAXATION PER PACK.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THAT WOULD START TO PUT US IN LINE WITH SOME OF OUR OTHER NEIGHBORS.

I THINK MOST IMPORTANTLY, THAT WOULD TRIGGER A SIGNIFICANT SMOKING CESSATION DRIVE IN INDIANA.

AND WOULD ALSO -- GENERAL RULE OF THUMB OVER THE YEARS, 10% INCREASE IN PRICE TRIGGERS ABOUT A 5% REDUCTION IN CONSUMPTION, AND ABOUT A 7% REDUCTION FOR YOUTH.

SO, WE NEED TO GO BIG, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT'S BEEN 14 YEARS.

IN THOSE 14 YEARS WE'VE LOST GROUND TO OUR NEIGHBORS AND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY ON A NUMBER OF HEALTH METRICS.

>> ACCORDING -- THE STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT SAID THE 2007 INCREASE PASSED, $0.44 PER PACK WHEN MIKE RIPLEY WAS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

LED TO A 20% REDUCTION.

I DON'T KNOW IF THE MATH -- YOU KNOW, NOT MY STRONG SUIT, WE'LL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR THE CALCULATION, 20% ON A $0.44 INCREASE.

NOW, I KNOW WHERE WE'RE GOING TO GET CONTROVERSY.

JULIE OLTHOFF.

YOU'VE HEARD THE ARGUMENT FOR SIGNIFICANT.

$2 PER PACK.

YET ON THIS ONE, YOU SAY, NO, NO.

YOU INITIALLY WERE LOOKING AT A DOLLAR PER PACK.

AND NOW THE PROPOSAL WHICH AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, YOUR BILL, YES, THAT WAS A STAND ALONE BILL, BUT THEN ALSO WOVEN INTO THE TWO-YEAR STATE BUDGET.

AND THAT'S NOW DOWN TO $0.50.

SO WHEN DOES AN INCREASE STOP TO BE A DISINCENTIVE TO SMOKERS?

WHAT IS THE RIGHT -- I'M GUESSING SINCE YOU AUTHORED A BILL THAT SAID $1, THAT'S WHAT YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, I SETTLED ON A DOLLAR.

I DID MEET WITH THESE FOLKS TO LISTEN, WE HAD GOOD DIALOGUE.

BUT I JUST CAN'T GET TO $2.

LIKE, YES, YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, AND YOU COULD SEE IT MOVE THE NEEDLE.

BUT THEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PEOPLE, I JUST CAN'T MAKE SOMEBODY WHO SMOKES TWO PACKS A DAY SPEND FOR MORE DOLLARS A DAY ON CIGARETTES.

IT'S AN ADDICTION.

THIS IS NOT EASY STUFF.

AS REPRESENT VERMILLION SAID, PEOPLE WANT TO STOP SMOKING.

SO MAYBE A LITTLE NUDGE AT A DOLLAR WOULD HELP THEM DO THAT.

SO $2 A DAY.

I JUST COULDN'T GET THAT FAR.

YES, WHEN WAYS AND MEANS PUT IT IN AT $0.50, I WAS DISAPPOINTED.

BUT THIS IS ALL STILL SWIRLING AROUND.

LIKE, IT WAS EARLY ON IN THE SESSION WHEN WE PASSED IT OUT OF COMMITTEE.

BUT NOW IT'S OVER ON THE SENATE SIDE, PART OF THE BUDGET NEGOTIATIONS, AND MAYBE THEY DID $0.50 BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE SENATE WOULD LAND.

OR IT'S A GOOD STARTING POINT WHERE THEY KNOW IT WAS DOLLAR.

THEY MADE IT $0.50, 75.

>> CAN YOU LIVE WITH 50?

>> I WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED WITH THAT.

BUT IT IS SOMETHING.

>> THE REASON YOU CAN'T GO FOR TWO, IT IS NOT NECESSARILY PHILOSOPHICAL IN NATURE, IT IS JUST I SHOULD POINT OUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE INVITED WHO HAD THEY BEEN HERE ALL CHANNEL, THEIR THOUGHTS, THEY WERE SAYING 60% OF THAT 21% OF ADULTS IN INDIANA WHO SMOKE FALL BELOW THE SORT OF 50TH PERCENTILE IN TERMS OF THEIR INCOME LEVELS.

IT DOES ARGUABLY AFFECT LOWER INCOME INDIVIDUALS DISPROPORTIONATELY.

A TAX INCREASE, A PERCENTAGE ON TOP OF THAT.

STARTING TO TREAD ON VERY THIN ICE WITH MY MATH.

BUT THAT'S -- SO IT IS A CONCERN ABOUT -- >> AND THERE IS ONE MORE POINT, IF I COULD.

>> SURE.

>> PEOPLE, SOME OF THEM REALLY DON'T WANT TO USE TAX AS A WAY TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR.

I HEARD THAT.

>> LIKE A SIN TAX.

>> IT IS, THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT IT IS GOING TO MEDICAID.

>> NOW THAT THEY -- YOUR BILL.

NOW, ANN VERMILLION, BEFORE YOU WERE NODDING YOUR HEAD, THIS TIME I SAW SOME SHAKING MAYBE THAT YOU THINK YOU'RE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE $2?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT?

I THINK JULIE AND I, WE SPOKE A LOT, FROM MY HEALTHCARE PERSPECTIVE, I WENT THE $2.

I WOULD LOVE THE $2.

BECAUSE I BELIEVE IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATES THAT HAVE MADE THAT JUMP, A SIGNIFICANT JUMP, WE GOT TO SEE -- WE GET TO SEE THEIR STATES JUST THRIVE, AND THEY ARE MOVING.

I'M SO TIRED OF INDIANA BEING IN THE BOTTOM TEN ON NATIONAL HEALTH RANKINGS, AND LIKE WE'VE SAID, ONE VERY PRAGMATIC WAY TO MOVE THAT BALL, TO MAKE PEOPLE HEALTHIER ARE TO PUSH THAT, IS TO PUSH THAT TAX TO A HIGH ENOUGH RATE THAT ALL OF THE PATIENTS I'VE WORKED WITH, IT'S TIME, I KNOW I NEED TO STOP, IT'S TIME.

I AM ALSO IN SUPPORT OF REPRESENTATIVE OLTHOFF THAT OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO WORK AMONG COLLEAGUES, WORK WITH OUR SENATE COLLEAGUES, SO WE ALSO HAVE TO BE REALLY REAL ON WHAT NUMBER ARE WE GOING TO GET TO.

SO WE'RE FIGHTING FOR THAT.

SO WE HAVE AGREED TO A DOLLAR.

I ALSO WAS UPSET, A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE $0.50.

I THINK IT IS A FLUID PROCESS.

WE'RE HOPING OUR VOICE CAN BE HEARD.

AND WE'RE ALSO JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE TEMPERAMENT AND EMBRACING OF THE SENATE TO SEE WHERE THEY'RE EVEN AT >> SPECIFICALLY, THERE IS HISTORY, THE HOUSE HAS BEEN SUPPORTIVE IN THE PAST, BOTH AT THE COMMITTEE LEVEL AND THE EDGE TIRE CHAMBER.

IT IS TENTATIVE TO GO BYE-BYE IN THE SENATE IN THE PAST.

MIKE RIPLEY, HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH, WHEN I SAY YOU, AS A LID OF THIS CONSORTIUM, THIS PUBLIC INTEREST GROUP AT THE $2.

BECAUSE IF WE STIPULATE THAT HIGHER PRICES DISCOURAGE PURCHASING AND USE, WHY NOT DO WHAT -- TO BUY A PACK OF CIGARETTES NOW IN CHICAGO, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IN COOK COUNTY, IT IS MORE THAN $7 IN TAXES.

AND IF I HAVE MY FIGURES CORRECT, EVEN IF WE WERE TO GO, NEVER MIND THE 50%, BUT EVEN IF WE WENT A DOLLAR, AND MAYBE EVEN $2, IF I RECALL SOME OF THE STATS, WE WOULD STILL BE -- WE WOULDN'T BE A LEADER IN TERMS OF HIGH TAXATION, WE WOULD STILL BE IN THE SECOND HALF OF STATES IN TERMS OF TAXATION, SO WHY NOT.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS, WHY NOT GO WHOLE HOG AND SAY $10, $5.

>> WE THINK $2 IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO BE.

WE RECOGNIZE THAT MAY NOT BE REALISTIC AMONG SOME OF THE FOLKS.

PART OF THE PROBLEM IS WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS THINKING THAT RAISING THE CIGARETTE TAX, IT IS NOT ABOUT -- IT IS ABOUT REVENUE, BUT THAT'S NOT THE MOTIVATION -- THAT NOT THE REASON WE'RE DOING THIS.

IT IS ABOUT THE HEALTH OF OUR RE REPORT -- REPORTS, EMPLOYEES.

RESIDENTS.

IN REFERENCE TO YOUR QUESTION, JON, THE $10, IF YOU GO TO THAT KIND OF NUMBER, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ISSUES, SMUGGLING, AND I KNOW THERE WERE ISSUES IN NEW YORK CITY, AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS, WHERE YOU GET PROBLEMS WITH SMUGGLING.

>> APPARENTLY NOW A LOT OF PEOPLE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT IN MICHIGAN, THEY SMUGGLE INDIANA BOUGHT CIGARETTES.

WE ARE AN EXPORTER OF, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ILLEGAL CIGARETTES.

>> WE THINK $2 IS THE RIGHT PLACE TO BE.

NOW, WHEN WE END UP THERE, MOST LIKELY NOT?

NOW, AT $0.50, WE -- OUR PERSPECTIVE IS THIS, IF YOU'RE GOING TO INCREASE IT TO $0.50, LET'S NOT DO IT.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT REALLY GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON BEHAVIOR >> DOES IT MATTER WHERE THE REVENUE GOES?

THERE HAS BEEN THE DEBATE OVER GENERAL FUND, MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT, SOME DEMOCRATS HAD AMENDMENTS THIS IS ALL ABOUT SMOKING CESSATION PROGRAMS, ALMOST A USER FEE WHERE YOU PAY -- IF YOU WANT TO SMOKE, YOU PAY, AND ON THE BACK SIDE WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO PERSUADE YOU NOT TO.

>> AS THE INDIANA CHAMBER, OUR PREFERENCE WOULD BE THAT IT OUGHT TO GO TO HEALTH RELATED THINGS, MEDICAID.

WE RECOGNIZE THERE ARE ISSUES... >> THAT'S NOT A DEAL BREAKER, BUT $0.50 -- >> $0.50 IS PROBABLY A DEAL BREAKER FOR US.

>> YOU DON'T WANT TEN BUCKS, BRYAN HANNON, IS IT AN EXAGGERATION TO SAY THE HIGHER THE TAX, THE HAPPIER YOU WOULD BE.

>> LIKE MIKE, WE THINK $2 IS PROBABLY THE REALISTIC.

WE HAVE NEVER SEEN A STATE GO TWO, THREE, FOUR -- >> IN THAT SINGLE JUMP.

CLEARLY STATES ARE HIGHER.

>> WE THINK $2 IS WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE.

I UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE HESITANCY OF PUNISHING PEOPLE WHO USE TOBACCO PRODUCTS.

BUT THIS IS VERY PROGRESSIVE HEALTH POLICY.

THE FACT THAT LOW INCOME INDIVIDUALS WHO SMOKE ARE GOING TO BE MOST LIKELY TO REALIZE THE HEALTH BENEFITS.

AND MORE THAN 50% OF TOBACCO USERS IN INDIANA MAKE A QUIT ATTEMPT EACH YEAR.

REALLY THIS IS THE BEST HELP POLICYMAKERS CAN -- WHEN IT COMES TO NEIGHBORING STATES, TWO HAVE HIGHER SMOKING RATES, OHIO AND KENTUCKY.

BOTH HAVE RAISED THEIR TAX MORE RECENTLY THAN INDIANA, BUT THEY'VE DONE SO AT VERY SMALL AMOUNTS.

2015 OHIO $0.35.

KENTUCKY, BY 50.

LET'S MAKE THE JUICE WORTH THE SQUEEZE.

>> THIS BILL AS IT EXISTED NOW, THE LEGISLATION, THE PROVISION IN THE BUDGET WOULD BE FOR THE FIRST TIME EXTEND A TAX TO E-CIGARETTES AND THE LIQUIDS THAT GO INTO THAT.

THAT WOULD BE AT THIS .10% SURCHARGE IN TERMS OF THE TAX, DOWN FROM THE INITIAL PROPOSAL, I THINK 39%.

BUT, AGAIN, WE WON'T GET BOGGED DOWN IN FIGURES.

IF THIS IS ABOUT HEALTH, ESPECIALLY IN THE WAKE OF COVID.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO BAD HEALTH, BAD EATING, DON'T LOOK AT -- KEEP YOUR EYES ON MY EYES, DON'T LOOK AT MY MID SECTION.

BAD EATING.

WHY NOT SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING -- WE RECOGNIZE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DANGEROUS HOBBIES, WHETHER IT'S SKY DIVING, MOTORCYCLE RIDING, IF YOU EAT SWEETS, KIDS WHO PLAY CONTACT SPORTS.

WHY PICK ON A PRODUCT THAT IS LEGAL?

IN THE STATE OF INDIANA?

>> OH, BOY.

ONE IN FIVE HOOSIERS, BECAUSE OF THE DATA ABOUT IT, BECAUSE OF THE USE THAT LOVE IT.

>> YOUTH LOVE CHOCOLATE CAKE, TOO.

AND DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR.

>> THIS IS TRUE.

>> SO YOU'RE TAKING -- THIS IS ONE THING YOU CAN DO.

MAYBE IT CUTS BACK THE POLITICAL REALITITIES, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO GET MANY OF YOUR COLLEAGUES TO TAX CHOCOLATE CAKE, A LOT OF THEM WOULD BE PAYING OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKETS PRETTY HEAVILY.

WHEN I MAKE THIS ARGUMENT, OR WHEN I ON BEHALF OF OPPONENTS OF THIS, WHY SINGLE OUT A PRODUCT?

>> FOR ME, IT IS WATCHING THE STATES, EVIDENCE-BASED THEORY THAT IF YOU TAX IT, IF YOU REMOVE THAT ONE MORE BARRIER, WHETHER IT'S FINANCIAL, WHATEVER WE'RE DOING TO MAKE THOSE THAT BRYAN HAD JUST SAID ARE ON THAT THOUGHT PROCESS OF I KNOW I WANT TO MOVE A HEALTHIER LIFE.

SO I'M COMFORTABLE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT OTHER STATES HAVE SHOWN HAVE CHANGED THE FACE OF THEIR HEALTH AND THEIR OUTCOMES.

I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT.

I THINK ALL OF US, WE LOOK AT OUR, WHAT WE EAT, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO TACKLE SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE TO EAT EVERY DAY.

SO WE'RE ASKING THEM JUST TO EAT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FOODS.

THAT IS A NATIONAL DISCUSSION ON HOW WE NEED TO STAY HEALTHIER.

WHAT I JUST KNOW FROM MY EXPERIENCE WHEN YOU TAKE OUR ASTHMA OR DIABETES OR COPD RATES, LUNG CANCER, CARDIOVASCULAR ISSUES, THERE IS TOO MUCH EVIDENCE THAT IT IS COMING, ONE OF THE UNDERLYING BAD HABITS IS SMOKING.

IT IS JUST ONE OF THOSE THAT -- AND I WILL ALSO -- I WANTED TO QUICKLY POINT OUT THAT YOU'VE GOT MICHIGAN, AND YOU HAVE OHIO, THAT HAVE THOSE HIGHER RATES, AND THEY GET -- THEY GET TO SPEND THOSE NATIONAL HEALTH RANKINGS, IN THE 20s, LOW 30s.

MY CONCERN IS WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT OUR RANKING AT 41st, AT THAT $0.50 LEVEL WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW, WE'RE JUST BASICALLY SAYING WE STILL WANT TO STAY IN THAT BOTTOM TEN.

BECAUSE THE BOTTOM TEN OF THE WORST STATES IN HEALTH ARE THOSE THAT ARE IN THAT TAX RATE.

SO THAT'S HEARTBREAKING FOR ME TO SAY THAT'S OUR GOAL.

OUR GOAL IS TO STAY IN THE BOTTOM TEN?

AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME.

LAST COMMENTS HERE.

WHAT IS THE END GAME?

WOULD YOU BE SATISFIED, WILL THE CHAMBER BE SATISFIED MIKE RIPLEY IF THE WORKER IN THE STATE OF INDIANA KEEP SMOKING, TO COME BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL PEOPLE ARE NOT SMOKING, WHEN DO YOU DECLARE VICTORY?

>> WE ARE NEVER GOING TO SEE 100%.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE HARD CORE CONTINUE TO SMOKE.

WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK UNTIL WE SEE A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION, OUR GOALS AT THE INDIANA CHAMBER, WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE SMOKING RATE LESS THAN 15%.

THAT'S SIGNIFICANT.

WE'RE AT 20 NOW, SO WE'VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO TO GET TO LESS THAN 15%.

THAT WOULD PUT US AT A BETTER RANKING NATIONALLY.

SO WE'RE COMPARING OURSELVES TO OTHER STATES.

>> AND I'LL ASK YOU A SIMILAR QUESTION, BRYAN, $2 THIS TIME AROUND, IN THE BACK OF YOUR MIND, YEAH, WE GET THAT, NEXT SESSION, IS THIS A CONTINUUM TO ELIMINATION THROUGH THE CASH REGISTER, IF YOU WILL, OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND VAPING PRODUCTS?

>> WE HOPE WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT 14 YEARS EACH TIME.

I DON'T THINK THE GOAL EVERY BUDGET CYCLE ASK FOR AN INCREASE, WE'RE TRYING TO FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE, THE EVIDENCE SHOWS US IT IS A WELL WORN PATH THAT OTHER STATES HAVE TAKEN WHEN YOU SIGNIFICANTLY RAISE THE PRICE AND DO IT SOMEWHAT REGULARLY, YOU CAN SIGNIFICANTLY DRIVE DOWN SMOKING RATES.

THAT'S THE PRIZE WE'RE AFTER, I THINK WE CAN GET THERE IF WE FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE.

AND THAT SAYS GO SIGNIFICANTLY.

THAT'S OUR PLEA WITH LAWMAKERS.

THIS IS THE YEAR WE SHOULD DO IT, IT'S A HEALTH POLICY, THE REVENUE SIDE OF IT, THE FISCAL SIDE.

WE HAVE A HEALTH CRISIS IN THE STATE.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, OUT OF TIME.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TO SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS ISSUE.

AGAIN, MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE JULIE OLTHOFF OF CROWN POINT REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE ANN VERMILLION OF MARION MIKE RIPLEY OF THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND BRYAN HANNON OF THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY.

THANK YOU ALL.

>> REDISTRICTING, WHEN THE PARTY AND POWER CHOOSES, ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

TIME NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH INDIANA LAWMAKERS ANALYST ED FEIGENBAUM, PUBLISHER OF THE NEWSLETTER INDIANA LEGISLATIVE INSIGHT, PART OF HANNAH NEWS SERVICE.

ED, $0.50, $0.75, WHERE DOES THIS END UP?

>> SOLD.

I THINK YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE WORRIED AS AN INDIVIDUAL LEGISLATOR WHAT THE SPECIFIC NUMBER IS GOING TO BE.

BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY GOING TO BE NEGOTIATED BY THE FOLKS AT THE TOP IN EACH CHAMBER AND GOING TO BE INCLUDED IN THE BUDGET, BECAUSE IT'S IN THE BUDGET, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO VOTE ON THESE THINGS INDIVIDUALLY, YOU'RE MAKING A BIG UP DOWN VOTE ON THE BUDGET, AND TOBACCO FAX IS ONE COMPONENT OF THAT MAJOR BILL.

>> DOES THAT SUGGEST IT IS MORE ABOUT MONEY AND REVENUE THAN IT IS ABOUT PERSUADING PEOPLE NOT TO SMOKE.

IF IT'S ALL BUDGET ALL THE TIME, ISN'T THAT THE RESULT?

>> WELL, THERE'S A FISCAL COMPONENT, A POLICY COMPONENT.

YOU COVERED BOTH OF THOSE.

BUT THERE IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT IN THAT PANEL, THAT'S THE PROCESS COMPONENT.

AND OVER THE YEARS, THERE HAS BEEN A GIVE AND TAKE BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE ON BUDGET ISSUES.

I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THE SAME KIND OF THING HERE.

WHAT I'M GETTING AT, IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, THE SENATE HAD HAD BUDGET SUPREMACY, WHEN LUKE -- WAS RUNNING THE APPROPRIATIONS PROCESS, THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENCE TO WHAT THE SENATE WANTED, THEN WHEN HE RETIRED, REPRESENTATIVE TIM BROWN CHAIRED THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS, AND LAST TWO YEARS AGO, WITH TODD HOUSTON HELPING HIM OUT, DEVELOPED A BUDGET THAT WAS REALLY A HOUSE-BASED BUDGET.

BECAUSE YOU HAD A COUPLE OF ROOKIES IN CONTROL OF THE SENATE BUDGET PROCESS.

AND NOW AS REPRESENTATIVE BROWN GETS TOWARD WINDING DOWN HIS LEGISLATIVE TENURE YOU'LL SEE A BATTLE FOR THE SENATE TRYING TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE SUPREMACY OVER THE BUDGET.

AND THE TOBACCO TAX MAY BE ONE PARTICULAR TOOL THEY'RE GOING TO USE TO DO THAT.

I THINK THAT THE SENATE IS MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN A HIGHER RATE ON THE TOBACCO TAX GOING AT LEAST TO A DOLLAR, AND THE HOUSE WILL PROBABLY END UP GIVING IN, AND THAT MAY ALSO PORTEND A LITTLE BIT MORE FOR WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE TWO YEARS DOWN THE LINE ON THE BUDGET WHERE THE SENATE MAY KIND OF TAKE CONTROL OF THE PROCESS.

>> SO THE BUDGET MAY START BY STATUTE, HAS TO START IN THE HOUSE, BUT WHERE IT ENDS UP, FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING IS ANYBODY'S GUESS?

>> RIGHT.

AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE MORE OF A SENATE BUDGET THIS YEAR THAN PERHAPS A HOUSE BUDGET, PARTICULARLY ON THE TOBACCO TAX, BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF, ALONG WITH SOME OF THE SHOOL FUNDING ISSUES, THE KEY THINGS THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO BE DEALING WITH.

AND WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT $0.50 OR $2, OR WHATEVER, INDIVIDUAL LEGISLATORS ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF INPUT.

>> PROVING MOTIVATIONS AREN'T ALWAYS WHAT WE THINK THEY ARE, ED, THANK YOU AS ALWAYS FOR YOUR INSIGHT, MUCH APPRECIATED.

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