(bright music) - Hi, I'm Heather-Marie Montilla and you're watching PBS Books.

Thank you for joining us.

We're so excited to present a special feature highlighting the Independent Lens documentary Free For All the Public Library.

This powerful film explores how public libraries have shaped our country and continue to serve as sanctuaries for Americans everywhere.

Free for All the Public Library tells a story of the quiet revolutionaries who turned a simple idea into a reality.

From the pioneering women behind the free library movement to today's librarians navigating closures and book bans, this film celebrates those who created a civic institution where everything is free and the doors are open to all.

The documentary premieres on PBS on April 29th at 10:00 PM and on the PBS app, check your local listing.

Now let's take a moment to watch the trailer.

- [Interviewer] You work for government funded information organization.

- Yes sir.

- [Interviewer] What kind of information do you give out?

- [Interviewee] Whatever they asked for.

- [Local Member] The community messed up.

They missed their opportunity to save something incredibly important.

- Having that library to really pull us together into the community has been so helpful.

- We're a place where people come together and we need more of that in this country, not less of it.

- To dive deeper into the significance of libraries, I'm pleased to be joined by my dear friend, Cindy Hole, President of the American Library Association to explore the vital role libraries play within communities.

Okay, well one of the things besides National Library Week that brought us together is also, well PBS Books, we've been serving libraries since forever, but since 2018 I joined up to try to make sure libraries received a free services, free resources, free access to screeners from PBS.

We are so excited that PBS Independent Lens Indie Lens popup has a documentary coming out at the end of the month Free for All the Public Library.

I believe you received a sneak peek at the documentary, and I was wondering what was your reaction to Free for All?

- I absolutely loved it, of course.

Whenever a librarian can see such a in-depth documentary about the profession really highlighting the work that we do, I am so excited for everyone to be able to see this on PBS.

And when you see that there are library stories that really expand upon the human experience, how we come together as community members, how we learn as individuals, that is the powerful role of the library.

But what struck me the most was the individual stories of the first librarians and how their career was documented or not.

And so I think it's really important that as we continue to talk about women in libraries especially, we continue to highlight the success stories and celebrate everyone who works in libraries.

- I agree, you know, one of the things that was so amazing to me is really how women played such an important role in the spread of libraries across our country.

And some of it we knew, and there have been even historical fiction that's come out over the last few years sharing some of these stories.

And it's really wonderful for me to be able to see how women throughout the history of our country helped to spread the word and make sure literacy and information was accessible to all.

And that is the work you and I are still doing today, which is really exciting.

So the film, it celebrates really librarians as defenders of knowledge and democracy.

What would you say to someone considering a career in librarianship?

- I believe that libraries are a great profession for anyone.

And as information streams in and out of every single community, it's so important to understand what the role of the library is in your community.

And that is a safe space that is welcoming for all.

And I believe that everyone belongs working in a library if they have an interest in the information field.

There are so many wonderful professions out there, and I hope that anyone finds joy in their work because that's so important.

You give a big part of yourself and that's time that you spend away from your family.

So when you're working in a library, I hope that it's a fulfilling experience and I believe that we welcome all kinds of people with varying skillsets.

And as I said at the beginning, I was a casino marketer before I started working in libraries.

So I believe that libraries can be a great fit for most people if they're interested in pursuing this field.

And where we have so many different library types, 123,000 libraries, that's a lot of opportunities to look at the field of librarianship and what is possible.

I would encourage anyone to look at the varying job descriptions online and see what interests 'em the most.

But absolutely come into your local library, experience all it has to offer, research the digital library on the website as well, and see if this is work that you can contribute to in a meaningful way.

- I love that.

So to sum up your opinion on the documentary, what impact do you hope that the documentary will have on the public perception and policy regarding libraries?

- Well, you know, I hope that we help educate people to see that the role of the library continues to evolve and that we need the support of the public to continue to help these library spaces grow.

We need everyone's support so that they understand exactly how they can use the library.

And even if they don't choose to use the library themselves, at least know that your local library is there and share that information with students and neighbors because strong communities truly have strong libraries.

And that is such a wonderful place to be, to be able to live in a community that is connected and cares so much about their citizens, that they provide these public spaces and that they continue to reinvest in them.

That's the true mark of a healthy community.

- That was amazing.

It's so wonderful to be able to speak with Cindy and to hear really about everything she's done.

PBS Books also had the opportunity to sit down with filmmakers, Dawn Logsdon and Lucie Faulknor to get a behind the scenes look into the creation of the film.

Welcome Dawn and Lucie.

- Thank you.

- Hi, thank you.

Thanks for having us.

- Oh my goodness, I am so honored to have you and I just am so excited about the work that you have put together, this documentary film.

What inspired it and how long did it take?

- Well, it took about 12 years to make, and there was a couple inspiring moments that in that made us make the film.

One was we were finishing up another film called Faubourg Treme: the Untold Story of Black New Orleans.

We were almost done, and then Katrina hit and we had to evacuate, our neighborhood flooded.

We evacuated the Baton Rouge.

We thought we were just gonna be gone for the weekend and couldn't go home.

We went to the public library in East Baton Rouge, and that's when we discovered that librarians were first responders and that we were like, wow.

But we, prior to that, actually when we were making Treme, we worked with a lot of musicians and they're all saying, yeah, you know, I'll get you that information, you know, I'll call you, hey, don't worry baby, I'll take care of you.

And then nothing would happen.

We'd have to call, you know, five times to get any information from them.

However, when we were working in the archives for that film, we asked librarians questions and you know, they would have it right at their fingertip, but if they didn't have it, they said, I'll get back to you.

And before we got back to our desk, the answer would be there in our inbox, in our email.

It was just amazing.

And so while we making that film, I said, Dawn, we should make a film about libraries and here we are.

- And I said, I'm sure that's been done already.

And we looked and at the time it hadn't.

And now there are some other films about libraries, but ours, I think is the first one that really takes a national look across time instead of just like one library at one moment.

- Yeah, well one of the things I'm so excited about with your film is it does do a historic, not only a geographic look, but also historic perspective.

It seems that right, public libraries have evolved for centuries in this country and some consider them the palaces for the people, although we know that they have excluded people over the years.

Can you share a little bit how you've decided what historic moments and what figures to highlight in this documentary?

- Great question.

It took a long time and we sort of evolved it in the edit room after we'd done a lot of the shooting, to tell you the truth.

And then we went back out and did a whole nother chapter of shooting after we decided that the film was gonna be at least half historical.

And it really was a process of what I was falling in love with.

And you know, everybody knows Ben Franklin, I'm a huge Ben Franklin fan, Dewey, Mel, Carnegie, all these guys I'd already heard of.

And instead, we were hearing about all these little libraries that were founded by women that we knew nothing about.

And I sort of went down that rabbit hole of explaining, investigating the role that women had played throughout time in the library.

So that's our main historical focus.

Along with exactly what you just said, Heather... - How it evolved.

- The evolution of inclusion.

You know, I didn't know that when libraries first started, women couldn't go to a lot of them.

People of color couldn't go, children couldn't go, working people couldn't go, you know, it really depended on the library 'cause every library's local, but there were a lot more people who weren't invited into the library, or at least weren't welcome at the library than there were welcomed.

And now we have the exact opposite, which is, to me a great American story.

Yeah.

- So I was intrigued by your film touches on women's clubs and how libraries really work to make the women's clubs or the women really work to make libraries inclusive.

Can you share a little bit about some of the pioneering women you featured, like Ernestine Rose and others, and how you found them?

Like were they people you always knew about or how did you come upon them?

- Yeah, I had never heard of a single one of them to tell you the honest truth.

And you know, I am a classic library geek.

I used the library constantly.

I grew up with it.

It was incredibly important to me as a kid.

And I had my own personal librarians, the majority of whom were women.

But I knew nothing about the women's role in history.

So there are a ton of fascinating people.

I'm gonna start with the one that we stumbled across when we were in Wisconsin, which is where my mom's side of the family's from.

- And my dad.

- And her dad.

And so we spent a lot of time going to little small towns in Wisconsin and exploring.

And the person who kept coming up over and over again was this woman named Louie Sterns, who provided some of the earliest - [Lucie] Traveling libraries.

- Traveling libraries, rural access.

She would literally go out in the snow on a buggy and bring these little boxes filled with books and there were no libraries out there.

So they'd either drop 'em off at the little post office that was nearby or in somebody's living room or in the general grocery store.

And she was a huge leader in the women's club movement as things evolved.

And apparently most women used to belong to women's clubs.

And I think we should revive that tradition, frankly, like, I think it's something like three quarters of American women at the heyday belonged to women's clubs.

They were often segregated or you know, regionally specific.

But I think it was a great organizing tool.

And at one point, I forget the date, I think it was in the early 1900s, the National Federation of Women's Clubs had two main goals that they announced.

And one was getting the vote for women and the other one was establishing libraries in their communities.

So that's when we just thought like, this is a big link.

- So you touched a little bit on Carnegie, which is a name that many people in the library world are familiar with.

What impact do you think Carnegie had on the spread of libraries throughout our country?

Obviously the trailer highlighted Carnegie libraries.

How do you think that kind of set the stage for today?

Especially your film touches on it a bit.

- Yeah, well, he had obviously a huge impact 'cause everybody, every community practically has a Carnegie Library.

He was able to offer people or communities money to build the libraries he would have, which I didn't know till this film, that he would let them choose from certain architectural drawings and he would provide the seed money as long as the communities committed to having a tax to keep it open and operating.

So that was fascinating to me.

- Yeah, that's really neat, right.

And I think that model, it meant that from wherever there's a Carnegie Library, I was driving through Michigan a few weeks ago and I needed to do a call and I stopped in, I think it was Howell, Michigan, and I went to a Carnegie Library and I was like, I can't believe there, right?

Like, it was like Carnegie Library and it was looked like a library I had been to before.

And for me, till I saw your film, I actually didn't know that the taxation then was going to happen as a result.

So that's a really interesting thing.

And I almost wonder how that culture trickles down to today.

Did you see any evidence of parallels?

Obviously your film showcases that there are some communities that no longer had the resources, but do you see any correlation?

- I think he's the person who really established this idea that libraries were gonna be essential public services and that they were gonna be funded by the public, which means they belong to the public and there are libraries, but then it will also be a partnership with philanthropists for better or for worse.

You know, and I know that the balance has tilted back and forth a lot.

And right now a lot of libraries are relying more on private money because they're losing some of their public funding.

But it is a pattern that goes throughout the entire history.

And I just wanna say, I know there are a lot of librarians listening, and one thing I learned that really surprised me, because I love Carnegie Libraries, I'm very nostalgic about them.

A lot of librarians really hate them, and they hate the fact that, you know, everybody's so attached to them in nostalgic because especially the younger librarians, they're not forward-looking places.

You know, they were built for a certain time and era and they don't have the hookups that they need.

And all the, you know, modern technology.

And so I know it drives a lot of librarians crazy that people don't wanna to have a new building or, so there's two sides to the library.

A lot of them now are actually historical centers.

So the buildings are being saved, but they can't function adequately as the library anymore.

So they're historical societies or historical centers.

- Or they sold off, I've seen a bicycle shop in one of them, and in New Orleans, there's a Harry Krishna.

- Harry Krishna Yoga Center.

- Which is nice.

- So when I think of libraries, I think of it as a place that brings people together.

And I also know that the arts, right, I have a background in the arts and the arts bring people together.

I also noticed, Lucie, that you have a background in the arts, arts management.

So I'm specifically interested in how your journey in arts management and then what you discovered in terms of libraries being this vibrant place of an exchange of ideas and art is often part of that.

If you could talk a little bit about how you wove that theme into this documentary.

- Sure, well, libraries, I mean, obviously everybody listening here knows that it's not just about books.

Like the programming that is going on in libraries today is just outstanding.

Like my local library in San Francisco, I mean, I think they probably get awards for it because there's tons of things happening all the time.

They have a gallery where they have, you know, visual arts, they have a screening room where they can show movies and documentaries.

Hopefully they'll show ours.

And they, you know, there's dance performances.

I mean, it's just amazing.

They have, you know, paint by numbers or, you know, whatever the community wants.

They'll provide it for them.

And they're able to also bring in artists in the community to come and provide the instruction for anything they do.

You know, if they're how to draw a bunny rabbit or whatever.

It's just amazing.

So your question of, what was your question?

- It was how your experience and what you saw, like how you wove it into your documentary.

And I think, you know, you answered that.

- Everywhere we went.

Yeah well, it's not art, but in Kansas City, you know, they were providing like exercise classes in one of the rooms.

You know, I mean, it's just amazing.

Libraries are amazing.

- On a historical note, one of the libraries we focus on is the 135th Street Library in New York City during the Harlem Renaissance, where it was just this absolute hotbed cultural flowering of the arts within the library itself.

And it was very intentional we learned like the librarians, a lot of them were working in the arts.

Nella Larson was a librarian there briefly.

Ernestine Rose, who you mentioned earlier, was the library director who initiated a lot of those changes.

- Augusta Savage.

- Yes, so many famous people went through there, it's just.

- Well, that's the Schomberg, right?

I mean, yeah, I mean, it is, they have Aaron Douglas painting.

I mean, he did a mural there.

I mean, I've been to that library.

And one of the most amazing things about that library is actually, it's very much a cultural center for the community.

Yes, the Apollo Theater, but I know that I've worked with schools that had performances in that space.

And so it is an extraordinary library today as well.

It wasn't just wonderful in the Harlem Renaissance.

So as I'm sure you've noted you in the film.

- And also those are all big city libraries, but we found this kind of thing happening in all kinds of little towns.

So were we in Chauvin or Dularge Louisiana?

I'm from Louisiana, so we went to a lot of tiny little towns in the Cajun country, and there would be senior painting class and there would be kids, you know, pottery time.

And as things get cut back, a lot of other art services get cut back.

I feel like librarians are filling in the gap, not just with the arts, but also with social services and really expanding what they provide.

- So can we talk a little bit both historical and present day?

So in terms of experiences of libraries, when you think of the Faith Cabin library that you go into or maybe in East Baton Rouge like a bookmobile, when we're looking at more underserved, under-resourced communities, what did you see overall nationally?

How do libraries fill in?

And you've talked a little bit more about this, but how does your documentary illustrate that?

- Hmm, that's a really good question.

You mentioned Faith Cabin, which actually was a public library that they were open to everyone, but they were filling in for the fact that most southern communities did not provide any public library access for their black citizens.

So in a way, they were private libraries that were open to the public and they were filling in a hole.

So it was not that the public services were being met by the public government, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

And in a lot of cases that happened, you know, when people weren't invited, they weren't allowed, they set up their own private things and then gradually built the pressure to be included in the public sphere.

So one of the very first sit-ins in Mississippi, this is another thing we didn't know, even though I grew up in the deep South, is that before all the famous lunch counter sit-ins and out on the street, most communities, the first building that got desegregated, that had protests to integrate were the public libraries.

And a lot of times it was high school kids that were going in, which I found really moving.

And for the most part, they were fairly peaceful events.

There was not as much pushback and resistance to desegregating the public libraries from the community as there was from the schools or the pools or all that kind of thing.

And I think that says something about the people who use the libraries and care about the libraries.

- So libraries across the United States really face issues like budget cuts, closures as we've seen, book bans.

What were some of your challenges in making your documentary and how given this unprecedented moment in history with division and fights of, like what role do you feel your documentary can play?

- Hmm, good question.

I mean, the biggest one for us is we actually, it took us a long time to finish the film, but we actually originally finished it in 2019 and it was gonna be on public television in 2020.

And it was accepted as some major film festivals there.

And we all know what happened in 2020 and libraries completely shut down.

And so we had like a year and a half of sitting around waiting for the archives to reopen so we could license the materials that we were using in the film.

And we made a decision that we needed to kind of reopen the film and go back and explore what this impact was having on libraries.

And things have changed so much.

So I mean, the first thing is, you know, we just learned what it would be like to have no public spaces that were open and how important libraries were and how quickly they like rose to the occasion and started doing remote programming and changing their needs and doing outdoor pickups and all that kind of thing.

But even so, how much people really missed a place where they can come together across difference.

And I think a lot of the divisions that we're seeing pop up in libraries today reflect some of that.

And we wanted to include that in the film too.

So we do go into the contemporary book challenge period, which we learned while we were learning the history is, you know, that's been there, that tension has been there since the very beginning.

It is not something that just happened yesterday.

It's not something that just happened during the McCarthy period, you know, in the first big city public library in Boston, within a few years of its opening, they were challenges to a whole bunch of books.

So it's been going on forever and it's a very American tradition, you know, that tension of pushing back on both sides and hashing it out.

- And one of the other, I mean, major challenges making the film too is of a challenge that all libraries seem to be having right now too, is funding.

- Yeah.

- Like, you know, we were just constantly trying to raise money to make the film 'cause we were originally just gonna focus on San Francisco, but we showed some excerpts at an ALA conference and people said, you know, San Francisco's great, but it's not like the rest of the country.

So traveling around the country and hiring, you know, crews and it was really difficult, but it's nice.

- Well, that's probably where you went wrong.

I realize in these interviews that I do, more often than not, people blame the work they're doing on a librarian.

They say, the whole reason I'm in this space is because a librarian asked me to do, you know, one more or write one more show.

I was like, yep, it's our fault.

So as your film touches on libraries often serve as safe spaces for diverse communities, what do you think the future holds for public libraries, especially as inclusive spaces?

- I don't know, honestly.

I mean, it depends on what we do.

It depends on whether the American people still want their libraries and are gonna fight for them because it's definitely gonna be a fight.

You know, they're local, so every community is different.

And you know, in Boston, I don't think there's any danger of the library going away at all.

But I know that there is real danger that in just outside of my hometown, New Orleans in Louisiana, there are a lot of battles about, you know, whether the library should stay open or not.

- Or just poor librarians who are being sued for giving somebody, you know, a banned book.

I mean, to what today, I think I read there was 400 more banned books this year in schools in Florida.

It was like, what?

Like crazy stuff.

Oh, they don't want you to read what was it, "Brave New World" because we're in it, I guess.

- If you could leave audience members with one key message about public libraries, what would it be?

Each of you.

- I think one of our interviewees said it best, which is that there are treasure and treasures are very fragile, precious things that can disappear at any time if we don't take care of them.

- I mean, yeah, that I agree with that.

People have to, people just take 'em for granted, you know, and they need to walk into their library more than just pick up their book that they ordered online and see what's going on and say hello to their librarian.

- Well, I wanna thank you for that because I also think your film does that, right?

I know when I've been in libraries and I've seen people walk in and they're like, what is this place?

This doesn't look like a library.

And I'm like, when was the last time you've been to a library?

And they're like, oh, it's been probably 20 years.

I was like, well, libraries have changed.

And I love that your film points that out, right?

It shows exercise classes, it shows like different, and that helps people to maybe go out to their local library and see what is there.

And I love that.

I really do, so thank you.

Well, thank you for joining us.

Don't forget that you can watch the full Independent Lens documentary Free for All the Public Library that premieres on April 29th on PBS, the PBS app as well.

And check your local listing.

Make sure to like and subscribe to PBS Books so you never miss an episode.

For more PBS books programs featuring your favorite authors, filmmakers, and more, go to our full calendar of upcoming and past programs at pbsbooks.org.

Until next time, I'm Heather-Marie Montilla and happy reading.

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