- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard" with Evan Smith is provided in part by Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Christine and Philip Dial.

- I'm Evan Smith.

They're a legendary Grammy award-winning folk rock duo now in their fourth decade performing together.

Their most recent album is "Look Long".

They're Amy Ray and Emily Saliers.

You know them as Indigo Girls.

This is "Overheard".

(upbeat music) A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

(audience cheers) You really turn the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

Are we blowing this?

Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing by giving in to the attention junkie.

As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold everybody else.

This is "Overheard".

(audience applauding) (audience applauding) Amy, Emily, thank you so much for being here.

It's great to see you.

- It's great to be here.

- Thanks for having us.

- Yeah.

- Thanks so much.

And let me also say, wow.

I have chill bumps, as we say in Texas, sitting here across from you because your music has been on the soundtrack of my life.

That may be a generational thing.

But I think for a lot of people who generally grew up around the time that we did, you've been an integral part of everything we've done.

- Thank you.

- Wow, thanks.

- Thank you so much.

- It's an honor.

It's an honor.

- I wanna ask you about folk music.

I said, "Oh, they're a folk duo."

Are you really folk music?

I mean, I think about folk music in a very, very different way.

I know that is your brand.

But I think about folk music as a guy with a beard and gnome mustache playing a melodeon or a double bass like Harry Shearer in "A Mighty Wind".

You all rock out.

(Ann laughs) As I've listened to your music over the years, I've thought a lot of things about it, but I haven't necessarily, Amy, thought about folk music.

- Well, we grew out of that.

You know, we were influenced by songwriters that were considered like folk pop, I guess, but also rock.

I know Emily listened to a lot of Jackson 5 when she was growing up and I really punk rock a lot and country and old jazz and stuff.

You know, I think when you're playing acoustic guitar, that's just like, where kind of what your brand is at first.

But when we were coming up, we really played in rock clubs in sort of the post-punk era.

And those were the bands that gave us a shot really to open forum 'em and stuff.

People like Drivin N Cryin in the early days in Athens- - Well, of course, REM.

- REM.

- All your Georgia peeps?

- Yeah, and things were different.

Music was kind of always crossing over.

And then we went through a period when it was very segmented, and now it's again, like thankfully, there doesn't seem to be any boundaries.

You can just go online and listen to things and everything takes you to different places.

We love that.

We celebrate it.

- Emily, labels are reductive, right?

Why do we even need labels?

- I mean- - It's music.

- Sometimes, human beings need the lowest common denominator to identify and relate to something.

But I was gonna say with regards to folk music, when Amy and I first started and she was saying we played rock clubs, I mean we made the folkies uncomfortable.

They were a little bit like, "Hmm."

- Who's that?

- Too loud.

- Yeah, too much energy.

(Amy laughing) Maybe a little bit too butch.

I don't know.

(audience laughs) - Too gay, too loud, too rowdy.

And our crowd was rowdy.

- That's a pretty good branding proposition.

Too gay, too loud, too rowdy.

How about that?

- Yeah.

(audience applauds) - There you go.

Just to be under the name of every record right there.

That's it.

- I mean, I think people need labels just in a way.

You know, but also labels are problematic.

- Well, they're way finders, but honestly they're also limiting.

- Yeah, and problematic.

Yeah, politically, socially, and otherwise.

- Every other way.

- Yeah.

- 40 years is a long time to be doing anything.

I mean, I was sitting here thinking about 40 years playing together.

40 years is a long time to be doing anything, but it's a long time, especially to do this.

How many bands do we know that have played together for 10 or 20 years even and then broken up?

The fact that you all are continuing.

Emily, to play together is really extraordinary.

It's a milestone.

It's an achievement.

- Well, I guess it is by all the other standards for us.

We just grew up together.

We went to the same elementary school, the same high school.

We were friends.

I just used to go over to Amy's house and we would practice, and then we had a great English teacher who mentored us.

And so we put a set list together to play for the class.

All the steps were organic all along the way.

And more than that, I think we're like family.

Our families know each other.

We've been through all our milestones, including birth and death, illness, recovery, everything.

So we grew up together.

And then Amy and I, what we do musically and in terms of our sensibilities is so different from each other that I think the combination of the yin and yang has been really what has kept us together, along with the profound respect we have for each other as people and the healthy distance that we keep from each other.

(audience laughs) - Wow!

- That she keeps from, yeah.

- No, no, no!

- I was about to say, that was kind of a subtle dis I thought actually.

- Not subtle.

- No, not subtle.

We'll go back and edit that out.

It was a non-subtle dis.

- No, we know.

It's the secret to a good relationship is to give each other the space, right?

- Right, well, you're very complimentary.

I mean, the rap on the two of you for years has been, "They're different people."

You know, they grew up differently.

They don't necessarily see the world exactly the same way.

But it's sort of like they complete one another.

- Yeah.

That's a good marriage.

- As a band.

But bands are hard.

You'll acknowledge.

- Bands.

- Bands are hard.

- That's bands.

- Bands are hard.

- Yeah?

- That's like more than two.

- Right.

(audience laughs) - So, you think literally, that's the difference.

- I do think it's easier as a duo.

- In the same way that when you go to college and you're in a room with two other people, so it's three of you, it's always two on one.

If it's the two of you, you actually can figure out how to navigate this a little bit better?

- I do think it's a little easier knowing my friends that are in bands.

- But I have to tell you, still 40 years for me, I mean, I went back in the course of preparing for this and I was like, "Okay, what year was 'Closer to Fine' released?"

And I was like, "1989?"

I had a seizure.

(Amy laughing) This is more than half my life ago.

This is more than half your lives ago.

Think about so much that has happened.

The world has changed.

The music business has changed.

You've changed, in the intervening years, right?

- Yeah, no, we're thankful.

I mean, about it.

- Yeah, the longevity is something just to be acknowledged.

- I mean, part of it's our families have kept us grounded and our friends and we've had the same management since we were 23.

And we've had the same booking agent.

You know, we did it ourselves.

- We could shout out to Frank Riley.

- Shout out to Frank Riley and Dina Dusko.

- Riley, High Road Tour.

- Yeah, High Road Tour.

- The famous guy in that space for a lot of people.

Do you still enjoy, Amy, making music?

Do you still enjoy recording music?

Do you still enjoy performing music?

You'd be forgiven if it gets to be a little bit of a grind after so long.

- How do feel about it?

- No, I still enjoy all those things.

- Same as you always did?

- Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

- Same?

- More than ever, strangely.

- Why?

- I think at this point in my life, at my age, having been through what I've been through and what we've been through together and taking stock, and also you get to a certain point of age.

I mean, you hope you're gonna die a natural way.

But, not to be morbid - (snickers) Oh, God.

- but you start to...

This is what I think about, you know?

- [Evan] Yeah.

(audience laughs) - And especially after the pandemic and after the horrific wars that are going on around us, the suffering, you take stock of your life.

And I have just the deepest gratitude for all the blessings and good fortune of our lives.

And right up at the top of all of it is my relationship with Amy and the fact that we can make music.

And, you know, I'm 60.

My voice is not what it was even 10 years ago, but still being able to do it and being able to do it with Amy, I'm profoundly grateful.

And I just feel that in a way that it's... You know, everything else gets kinda quiet and then you just get focused on what really, really is deepening your life.

And this is something that deepens my life.

So, we can't go at the same pace we always did.

We're talking about how we can tactically sort of back off a bit from the pace of the road.

- How many nights or or days in a year on average now are you performing on the road?

- 150 maybe?

- And is that down from what it was before?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, I mean, we're kind of... We've always done sort of two to three weeks and then take time off.

Like 10 days off or a week off.

We've always done this thing.

But yeah, it's a different.

It's gotta be - Still feels like... - a bit of different.

- 150 still feels like a lot to me.

- Yeah.

- It gets tiring.

I mean, just the grind of the road.

And we're privileged.

So we get to ride on a bus.

Well, I don't know whether you like that or not.

I like a bus.

Amy likes a van.

- I'd like a plane, I think.

- Yeah.

(audience laughs) I mean, since we're just making stuff up, yeah, I'd go there.

- Yeah.

- Well, I mean, sleeping in a different bed in different time zones and just getting older.

- [Evan] Totally.

- It gets more tiring than it was.

- One difference, by the way, over these years from then to now is you both have daughters now.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Right, so presumably your daughters are not traveling with you on the road.

- Uh-uh.

- Not most of the time.

- Do you miss being back home?

I mean, that that's one thing that you have to solve for now that you wouldn't have had to solve for back in the old days.

- That's the hitch.

- It is.

- Yeah.

- It's a trade off.

- I mean, that's the only reason to pull back a little for me is my mom, 86.

You know, I wanna be with her.

I wanna be with my kid.

They're 10 years old and I wanna be... And my friends are getting older and some of them are sick and have parents that are passing and I just wanna be in community.

And this is two different...

It's like we have all these different communities and they're all incredible.

Like the activist community that we're in, the music community, the road community, the home.

And I've just felt a tug for me.

You know, I wanna see every soccer game.

Right, just like all of us, right?

Just like all of us.

Emily, I watched a screener of a documentary that was at Sundance last year.

It was at South by Southwest, that's going to be released theatrically and presumably all over streaming called "Its Only Life After All".

This is a documentary about you all and about the band and the history of the band.

And I learned so much that I didn't know.

It filled in a lot of holes for me.

And one thing I wondered was how do they work together as musicians?

Do they write the songs together?

Do they arrange the songs together?

So what I learned was you write separately, but then you come together and you work on the arrangements.

That's right?

- Yes, and it's always been that way.

There have been a couple of times that we've- - That has not changed?

No, we've tried to write together a couple times and we have written songs, but our natural inclination is just to write on our own.

It's extremely vulnerable writing a song.

And I think part of the reason why... Like I do some co-writing.

I drive to Nashville, do some co-writing, blah, blah, blah.

But, mostly write on my own and Amy write on her own.

And we just found that we arrange in a very simpatico way.

Very diplomatically.

If we didn't agree with an idea, whoever wrote the song kinda gets the last words.

- Wow.

- Years and years of open brainstorming and we found that we were good at arranging together.

And thank God for Amy's music because if it were just me writing my own music, I would've bored myself to death a long time ago.

So the fact that we are - Same.

- so different in terms of our sensibilities, our personalities, the way we express ourselves, but that we can arrange music together is awesome that it worked out that way.

- Who wrote "Closer to Fine"?

- I did.

- Who wrote "Galileo"?

- I did.

- Oh, come on now.

I know where you're going with this.

(audience laughs) (Amy laughs) - I'm glad you knew where I'm going with this, 'cause I don't know where I'm going with this.

- She's the, you know... - I pop.

- She's the hitmaker.

- She's the key.

- Don't, no, I'm not.

- She's the key.

- She's the key?

You feel that way?

- Someone in the audience just said, "No."

- I think... (audience laughing) I feel like Emily's got a sense of melody that's sort of beyond my grasp in some ways.

And a finger on the pulse.

And whenever "Closer to Fine" got placements, I'd be like, "Thank you for writing that song."

Because it's like, you know.

I mean, it's 80% of anything that's ever been heard on TV or movies or anything.

- It has staying power.

We'll come back to that - Yeah, it really does.

- in a second.

Well, let's talk about the evolution of the music business.

I mean, certainly whether or not the band has evolved in meaningful ways, in ways that are visible to all of us over the 40 years or so.

The music business has transformed over and over and over again.

Technology's been a very large part of that, though not only.

And I mean, recording has changed, distribution has changed.

Obviously, touring, performance has changed.

What do you think about the music business today versus when you started out, better or worse for you?

A feature or a bug?

- Both.

There's so many great things.

- Say more about that.

- Well, I mean, the internet has changed who the gatekeepers are.

And there's less of them in some ways.

I mean, they're trying to change that, but in some ways there's less of them.

And so more music gets out there.

It's easier to self distribute your music.

It's easier to record because of modern technology.

- It's democratized it certainly.

- It's democratized it, but it had to go through this weird deregulation and all the companies... One company owned all the radio stations.

And SiriusXM is the same playlist over and over again.

And it goes through those things on this certain level, but there's a level below it where the democracy lives and we're all there and you're able to do a lot.

But you still have to go play live.

If you want a career in a certain way, you still have to write... You know, you still have to work on your writing.

You still gotta go play live and just get your foot in the water and really practice a lot.

- Yeah, I mean, and Emily to the degree that it's a DIY world now in the music business, that's where you all started as the DIY band.

- [Amy] Yeah, yeah.

- You know, we started out.

We never thought we'd get signed to a major label.

There was no bidding war for us.

There was one quirky A&R guy who happened to be attached to CBS records, which is what it was at the time before it was Sony.

And he got interested in us.

So we got signed to a major.

And then at some point after that run was over, we got signed to Hollywood Records just thinking, "Oh, maybe we'll get our songs out there more in movies and TV and stuff like that."

That didn't happen and they dropped us.

My only point being, when they dropped us, it was like, "Well, that's okay," because we already had the songs written.

We were so used to being independent, even though we'd had this long run and we just set up our own record label and got a distribution company and that was it.

So our level of DIY has always really been the same at our cores.

And the other thing that has kept us together and happy for so long is that we haven't had to compromise in any way creatively.

- Right, the Y in DIY is yourself.

- Yeah.

- Which means you retain control, which is good.

- You know, music business, it's business and companies want profits.

And that's what they think about.

I mean, it comes down to that.

So we've been able to evade that a little bit just by sticking to our own way of writing, way of being, way of touring.

We have as Amy said, the same team we had from the beginning.

So it's very organic and wholesome in that way.

And we've been able to not be affected by the trends of business as it comes and goes.

- Always better to win with integrity.

You know, the one way of thinking about the music business today is it's Taylor Swift and Beyonce, and then there's everybody else.

But if you take control of it, then actually there is a way forward and you've proven with your staying power, longevity that you can make a go of it.

- Yeah, and I think it's important to know that within the corporation, there are people who love music.

So at Epic, there were team members that actually really loved music and Rage Against The Machine was on the label.

And Joan Jett put out a record on the label and Oasis and there was an excited sort of environment in the offices 'cause people were there 'cause they love music.

So we had tried to remember that too.

And we tried to leverage the resources that we had by being at a company.

And we got the Zapatista movie cameras to film their radical protests down in Mexico.

You know, we did things that we thought were making the best of our situation all the time.

And they gladly supported all that.

And that's the thing that we got lucky with.

- [Evan] Yeah, it's great.

'Cause we didn't try to compromise... We didn't say like, "Let's go their route."

We were always saying like we're just do things the way we wanna do 'em but we'll work hard.

It's a team.

- Yeah.

- Y'all work hard - Thank you - and we'll work hard.

- for signing us, but this is the way we dress.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And we're not changing.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And we're not changing.

So back to this idea, back to the future or old as new.

We're really experiencing a moment in the music business right now where people of the generation... You know, your kids, my kids who are older than your kids, but are still relatively speaking, kids, are discovering things that we listened to all those years ago.

I'm thinking about Tracy Chapman at the Grammys.

- Yeah.

- Oh.

- Right?

That moment with "Fast Car".

(audience applauds) But I'm also thinking about "Closer To Fine" in "Barbie".

(Anna and Emily laugh) And how many people went to see that movie who were not nearly alive the time that that record came out and suddenly discovered that song and we're like an aha moment.

You know, light bulb went off, "I need to listen to Indigo Girls."

How did you feel about how that all came together and what the byproduct of it has been after the fact?

- Well, it really fell out of the sky because first it was like "Barbie", "I don't know, we better check this out."

But then it was Greta Gerwig and so we're both huge fans of Greta.

- Of course.

Of course.

- No brainer.

- Who would not love her.

That's right.

- Yeah, and so it was like, "Wow, this is an honor."

We didn't actually know if this song was gonna be in the movie.

We knew it was in the trailer.

We just didn't know.

And then what is really most gratifying for me personally, is that the song was part of the storyline.

And that Greta made it- - It was a critical part of the storyline.

- So Greta made a choice, a creative choice to include that.

And that, you know, I gotta say, that felt really, really good.

And I do think that of course it caused a little bit of a buzz for us.

And then we got a little bit more press than we usually get.

And then, there was a reflection in ticket sales and now there's a bit of a reflection in the demographic of the audiences.

And we were gradually getting a younger and younger audience to some extent, which always feels good because you feel like maybe your music is relevant to young people and what they're going through.

- Well, they won't know that it's relevant unless they hear it.

And the thing about this was the opportunity - Yeah, that's a great point.

- for people to hear it.

And look, Brandi Carlile recorded a cover of this song, which is on the soundtrack, but in the movie they used you all right.

You out "Closer to Fine" Brandi Carlile.

(Amy laughs) (audience laughs) - Oh, don't tell her that.

We'll tell her.

- Now, right.

- Actually, come to think.

We'll tell her that you said that, okay?

- You tell her I said that.

- "We met this guy."

- We met this guy.

He might ask you to be on the show.

- "And you might say no now."

Exactly, that's why.

But it really is.

It's just a cultural signifier that you all got that acknowledgement, it was great.

- Oh, it's just luck.

- So we talked a little bit earlier about the two of you.

Amy, you were born in Decatur.

Emily, you were born in New Haven, Connecticut, but then you moved down to Atlanta, to the Atlanta area.

Both of you, you met in elementary school, but it was really high school where you all got to know one another.

And it was in the choir, is that right?

- Yeah, I mean, we were both in chorus together, right?

- Yeah, yep.

- Yeah.

- And then we had an English teacher.

That's when we started playing in his classroom.

- [Emily] Yeah.

Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Say his name, 'cause sometimes- - Oh, Ellis Lloyd.

Ellis Lloyd.

- Ellis Lloyd, sometimes those heroes never get named in conversations like this.

- Oh, he still brings my mom the newspaper every morning.

- Ellis Lloyd.

- Ellis Lloyd.

- So after, you start playing together.

You both play guitar also, right?

- Mhm.

- At this point?

Another thing that bonded you.

So after high school, you go to Vanderbilt.

You go to Tulane, but then ultimately you end up both transferring to Emory.

- Yep.

- Right.

- Emory University ends up being the place where Indigo Girls really begins.

Had you not both transferred at the same time, we're not sitting here today.

- That's probably likely.

- Probably.

- Yeah.

- Yep.

- Yeah, and you started out...

I mean, I think about sense of place, like it was not insignificant that you were both southerners by upbringing, that you were both in specifically in Georgia and in Atlanta.

And there was an extraordinary scene.

Music in both Atlanta and Athens and clubs there.

And one particular club, Little Five Points pub ends up, Emily, being a huge part of your story.

- Yeah, and we started out...

I mean, we would play anywhere and there were nights where only our parents were in the audience.

And so, we actually like building up to play at Little Five Points pub was a big deal.

And then, we became sort of like a house band.

And then, the man who managed it, John Blizzard was a life mentor for us and a guide and Little Five Points pub is really a motley crew of people, a melange of people, and from all different walks of musical life and life.

And we all would like share the stage together.

So it was just really like the hootnanny beginnings that still feed us in our spirits now.

And so along the way, every little step felt like an accomplishment and growth.

So Little Five Points pub was a huge springboard.

But Emory, the Emory community was very supportive of us as well.

So it was all kind of the gestalt of that period of time.

- And in fact, one of those bands from that era, from that place, REM, gave you one of the first opportunities to perform, open for them and perform before, maybe a different audience that wouldn't necessarily have seen you in Little Five Points pub.

But you all kind of piggyback on one another in that sense, right?

- Yeah, I mean REM, they were in Athens and we started playing in Athens 'cause Drivin N Cryin and Kevn Kinney and a band called the Squalls gave us some opportunities.

And then we were working with a producer that was working with REM too.

And then we met Scott Litt and John Keane, studio.

Scott Litt, the producer.

And it just was crazy 'cause it... And we got signed and then Scott Litt produced the record and Michael and Peter were on it and the whole band.

They gave us wings.

I mean, they were the portal.

'Cause at that time, like getting a gig opening for REM for a significant number of weeks was...

I mean, still people say to me, the first time I saw you, opening for REM.

Was that, well, it all builds brick by brick.

- Yeah.

- So we have a few minutes left.

I hate to have left this 'til the end, but I just wanna acknowledge that maybe the most distinguishing feature of your history as a band is that you have both lived authentically in the world.

You have been the people you are, and you have given other people permission by your example, to be the people they are.

Thank you for giving people - Oh, sweet.

- confidence in their choices.

- Nice.

- You're very sweet.

- [Emily] Thank you.

(audience applauding) - And the reality is that we're in a moment where we have to say out loud how far we've come and how far we have not.

We seem to be living in a point in our lives where the cruelty is the point in many places.

You've been activists, this has been a big part of your art and of who you are over the years for things like LGBTQ rights, women's rights, the rights of Indigenous people, the environment.

You've been anti-death penalty activists over time.

Can you say a word about that and how that's manifested itself in the work you've done?

I think it's important because there are a lot of people who push back and say, "Why can't you just give me the music?"

"Why can't I have the art without the politics?"

You don't make a distinction.

- No, I mean, they can go listen to another band, 'cause I mean we... (audience laughs) I mean.... (audience applauds) (Amy laughs) - Honestly, our activism, it comes from a very simple point of being citizens, being community members.

Just, we're all in this together.

Oh, someone's struggling in this way.

Let's bring some music and surround it.

Let's spread the word.

Let's get mentored by brilliant activists along the way.

We have been... And then the more... You know, we got signed and we got a larger audience, a little bit more power to lend to voices.

We just used it like that because it's just part of the paradigm for our lives and how we wanna be in community with other people.

And then, we're songwriters, observers of the world around us.

There's no way you're not gonna integrate those things if they occupy your heart, your conscience.

- Well, you have a platform.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah, and resources.

- You should use it.

- Yeah.

- Right?

- Yeah.

- You don't feel any differently about that today?

- No.

God, no.

I mean, even more so.

I mean, even when we were in a little community, we did little benefits, 'cause it's fun to gather people together and do something that's energizing.

And I always say, wherever you are, you have resources.

Whatever you do.

You work in an office, you got copy machine.

Use that.

You know, like mailing lists.

- And the message to all of us in your music over time has literally been take up the cause that you care about.

- [Amy] Yeah, yeah.

- You sang the words, "Raise your hands high.

Don't stand aside."

- That's Amy's words, yeah.

- But I think, but there you go.

(audience applauds) I mean, you told all of us that we have an obligation to not take a seat.

And I think that there's something to that.

Yeah, not in a preachy way, but in a like... - No, no, but I don't think you've been preachy.

I think you have kind of again, set an example.

- And like you believe that you are empowered and that you deserve that space to make yourself heard.

Because people will always say, "Oh, you don't know about that.

You can't talk about that.

Oh, you're a woman.

You can't do that.

Oh, you're this, you're that."

And it's like, "No, no, no."

We're all part of the world.

We can raise our hands.

- I heard you say, Amy, 20 years ago to Charlie Rose that you thought that being as active as you have been on issues, maybe held you back at some point.

Commercially, maybe held you back.

- It probably had at times.

There were probably things.

But fast forward to our lives now, we can look at the whole long view, I guess, and say, "No, probably not to that degree."

I mean, at that point where we were sitting, it probably felt like it because things were may have been going on where we were getting, I guess a little blunted by some things.

And not the coverage because we were too political.

- But you have no regrets.

- Oh my God, no.

I wish we were more - No, you would do it - outspoken sooner.

- exactly more outspoken.

(Amy laughs) You would do it the same way?

You would do it the same way?

- Absolutely.

- Yeah.

- Great, I'm gonna end where I began, wow.

What an opportunity to sit and talk to you all about this.

It is a treat to meet you.

Thank you so much for being here.

- You're awesome.

- A treat for us too.

- Amy Ray and Emily Saliers.

Give a big hand, thank you.

(audience cheers) Great.

We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&A's with our audience and guests and an archive of past episodes.

- I think the songs are like, they're about stuff that we've observed in our own lives or reflections on human nature and conflict and social movements and all that.

And the people who come to our shows are people who think about those things as well.

They never say like, "Shut up and sing."

(audience laughs) So I think that it's just such a strong sense of community.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard" with Evan Smith is provided in part by Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, and by Christine and Philip Dial.

(upbeat tune)