FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, WITH BILLIONS ON THE TABLE, NEW MEXICO'S TOP INFRASTRUCTURE ADVISOR EXPLAINS HIS PRIORITIES.

AND... Kunkel: I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE ABLE TO HOLD ACCOUNTABLE OFFICIALS FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR WHILE THEY ARE SERVING US IN OFFICE.

Gene: SHINING A LIGHT ON THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE GOVERNMENT AND WE CHECK IN ON THE STATE OF TRANSPARENCY AT THE ROUNDHOUSE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

GOVERNOR MITCHELL LUJAN GRISHAM IS CALLING ON THE STATE INVESTMENT COUNCIL TO PULL OUT OF ANY PLANS THAT MAY BENEFIT RUSSIA.

THE GOVERNOR SENT THE LETTER LAST WEEK CITING THE COUNTRY'S INVASION OF UKRAINE.

ACCORDING TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, NEARLY 8 MILLION-DOLLARS IS INVESTED IN RUSSIAN STOCKS AND BONDS.

AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HOUR WE'LL EXPLORE HOW THIS PLAN FITS WITH SANCTIONS FROM THE PRESIDENT AND HOW ANOTHER PROPOSAL FROM THE GOVERNOR COULD HELP SOFTEN THE IMPACTS OF RISING GAS PRICES.

A LESSER KNOWN CHILD WELFARE BILL THAT PASSED OUT OF SESSION LAST MONTH IS GENERATING SOME CONTROVERSY.

IT WILL CREATE A CENTRALIZED AGENCY WITH FIVE OFFICES AROUND THE STATE MEANT TO ADDRESS NEGLECT AND ABUSE CASES.

IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES WE'LL EXPLAIN WHY SEVERAL FAMILY ATTORNEYS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE PLAN.

FIRST, A TOP PROSECUTOR IN THE STATE SAYS A PROGRAM TO KEEP LOW LEVEL OFFENDERS OUT OF JAIL IS BEING UNDER USED.

THE STATE'S CRIMINAL DIVERSION PROGRAM IS MEANT TO REMOVE NONVIOLENT OFFENDERS FROM THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM INSTEAD SHIFTING THEM TOWARDS MENTAL HEALTH, DRUG TREATMENT AND HOUSING SERVICES.

LET'S GET TO THE LINE.

WELCOME THIS WEEK TO OUR THREE LINE OPINION PANELISTS.

HELLO TO MICHAEL BIRD, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION.

GOOD TO SEE ATTORNEY AND LEGAL AND PUBLIC SAFETY ANALYST ED PEREA BACK WITH US, AND HAPPY TO HAVE JULIE ANN GRIMM, EDITOR OF THE SANTA FE REPORTER BACK WITH US TOO.

THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US AT THIS VIRTUAL ROUNDTABLE THIS WEEK.

THIS CRIMINAL DIVERSION PROGRAM HAS BEEN ON THE BOOKS FOR A FEW YEARS NOW BUT RECENTLY BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY RAUL TORREZ TOLD THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL EDITORIAL BOARD THAT PUBLIC DEFENDERS AREN'T TAKING ADVANTAGE OF IT AS OFTEN AS THEY SHOULD.

JULIE ANN, THIS PROGRAM STARTED IN SANTA FE ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO AND YOUR PAPER, THE SANTA FE REPORTER, RECENTLY PUT OUT A DEEP DIVE ON HOW IT STARTED AND WHY PARTICIPANTS ARE DWINDLING.

CAN YOU FIRST EXPLAIN HOW THE PROBLEM WORKED EARLY ON IN SANTA FE AND EXACTLY HOW THINGS STARTED TO GO WRONG?

Julie Ann: WELL, I AM NOT SURE WE HAVE A COMPLETE PICTURE ON WHY THINGS WENT THE WAY THEY DID, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THIS PROGRAM WAS HIGHLY TOUTED WHEN IT STARTED OFF AND YOU OFTEN HEAR THE DRUM BEAT AND I DON'T THINK THERE IS A LOT OF DISAGREEMENT THAT IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM ADDICTION AND MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS TO SEEK TREATMENT RATHER THAN INCARCERATION, TO SEE OPPORTUNITIES FOR REHABILITATION VERSUS PUNISHMENT, AND THAT WHERE I REALLY THINK THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD IS THAT THE PROSECUTORS, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THE PUBLIC DEFENDERS AREN'T ALWAYS ALL MOVING IN THE SAME DIRECTION.

SO, THE SITUATION IN SANTA FE WAS THAT THERE WAS A VERY DEDICATED POLICE CAPTAIN WHO WORKED ON THE PROGRAM IN DEVELOPING AND TRAINING AND MAKING SURE THE NETWORK WITH THE LOCAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS WAS VERY STRONG.

AND WHEN THAT PERSON RETIRED AND LEFT THE DEPARTMENT, THERE REALLY WASN'T A STRONG ADVOCATE TO PICK UP THE TORCH AND CARRY IT.

THAT IS THE EXPLANATION THAT TED ALCORN GOT WHEN HE DID A REPORT FOR OUR NEWSPAPER A FEW MONTHS BACK ON THIS.

AND REALLY WE GOT TURNED ON TO THIS STORY BECAUSE TED WAS WRITING FOR THE WASHINGTON POST ABOUT JUDGE JASON LIDYARD AND HIS WORK IN THE FIRST DISTRICT TO EMPLOY DRUG COURT AS A WAY TO HELP THIS SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE FROM BEING CAUGHT IN THE INCARCERATION, CRIMINALIZATION AND REALLY GET SOME HELP FOR THE ROOT CAUSES OF THEIR ISSUES.

THEN I THINK IF YOU WANT TO TRANSITION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN ALBUQUERQUE AND WHAT THE CRITICISM HAS BEEN, YOU'RE SEEING IN ALBUQUERQUE A GREAT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE FOR WHOM THESE PROGRAMS MIGHT BE AVAILABLE.

YOU'RE SEEING THE PROSECUTORS MUCH MORE FREQUENTLY OFFERING THIS TO THE PUBLIC DEFENDERS AND THEIR CLIENTS AS A WAY OF SETTLING CRIMINAL CASES THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED.

BUT WHAT RAUL TORREZ IS COMPLAINING ABOUT IS THAT NOT ENOUGH OF THE DEFENDANTS ARE SAYING, YES, I WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN THIS PRE-PROSECUTION DIVERSION PROGRAM.

YES, I WANT TREATMENT.

YES, I WANT TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

SO, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS WHAT THE OFFENDERS SAY INITIALLY AND STILL IN SOME TYPES OF CASES TO BE INVOLVED IN THAT PROGRAM REQUIRES A GUILT PLEA.

EVERYONE KNOWS YOU DON'T WANT A GUILTY PLEA, YOU DON'T WANT A RECORD, IF YOU CAN AVOID IT.

YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT, BUT THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS GOING ON AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THE HEAD OF THE PUBLIC DEFENDERS OFFICE, BENNETT BAUR, SAYING THESE THINGS TAKE TIME.

THIS IS THE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION THAT THE PROSECUTORS ARE OFFERING THIS TO THIS MANY PEOPLE AND HAS ALSO SAID THAT RAUL TORREZ IS POLITICIZING THIS.

AND I THINK THAT IS MISDIRECTED.

RAUL IS RUNNING FOR STATE-WIDE OFFICE.

HE WANTS TO BE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND ANYTHING HE DOES IS GOING TO FACE THAT SCRUTINY.

Gene: INTERESTING POINTS THERE.

MICHAEL, PUBLIC DEFENDERS, LIKE DISTRICT ATTORNEY TORREZ SAYS -- OR WHO IS TO BLAME HERE, YOU KNOW?

PUBLIC DEFENDERS SEEM TO BE GETTING BLAMED HERE IN SOME BIZARRE WAY.

IS THIS APPROPRIATE?

Michael: WELL, I GUESS WHAT RISES AND CATCHES MY ATTENTION IS WHY WAS THERE A CONVERSATION WITH THE EDITORIAL BOARD?

I MEAN, WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THAT?

WHAT PURPOSE WAS SERVED BY BRINGING IT TO THE EDITORIAL BOARD?

WOULD IT NOT HAVE BEEN BETTER, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE, TO, IN FACT, HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH ALL PARTIES INVOLVED.

PUBLIC DEFENDERS.

CLEARLY THERE IS MERIT IN THIS APPROACH BUT I GUESS WHAT MY TAKEAWAY -- AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT INVOLVED IN ANY OF THIS -- BUT MY TAKEAWAY IS THAT IF YOU REALLY WANT -- IF YOU'RE REALLY THERE TO SERVE THE PUBLIC AND PROMOTE THE COMMON GOOD FOR ALL CITIZENS, EVEN THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER CRIMINAL ACT, IS THAT -- AND IF THEY ARE COMING -- AND IF IT IS NONVIOLENT CHARGES, IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, GIVEN WHAT IS GOING ON IN ALBUQUERQUE, THAT YOU WOULD TRY AND REMEDY IT WITH THE MOST EFFECTIVE, EFFICIENT -- EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT MANNER AND IT SEEMS LIKE THAT IS WHAT IT IS, THIS DIVERSION PROGRAM.

IT IS LIKE, I GUESS, THE FIRST QUESTION I WOULD ASK EVERYBODY INVOLVED IN THIS IS WHO ARE YOU SERVING?

WHO DO YOU SERVE?

Gene: THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION THERE.

Michael: WHO DO YOU SERVE AND ARE YOU, IN FACT, ENGAGING IN ACTIVITY, CONVERSATION, ACTIVITY THAT MOVES THIS FORWARD.

IF WE ARE COMMITTED TO SOMETHING, AS SANTA FE HAD BEEN, IN THAT MANNER, IT WAS EFFECTIVE, IT DID APPEAR TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE, BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE EVERYBODY ON THE SAME TEAM.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE PEOPLE COMMITTED TO SOMETHING BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES OR THEIR DEPARTMENT OR THEIR PARTICULAR PROGRAM.

AND UNTIL YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF A CONVERSATION, I DON'T THINK IT IS GOING TO CHANGE.

Gene: I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT JULIE ANN MENTIONED HAVING TO ADMIT GUILT IN ORDER TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PROGRAM.

WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THAT?

IS THAT A STOPPER RIGHT THERE?

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THAT?

Edmund: IT CAN BE AND WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MISSION OF BOTH SIDES.

THE MISSION OF THE PROSECUTOR IS TO GET A CONVICTION.

THAT IS ALL.

THAT IS HOW DA'S AND PROSECUTORS ARE MEASURED ACROSS THE STATE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, WITH A LITTLE MORE FOCUS, AND I AM NOT SAYING THIS ISN'T THE CASE WITH THE PROSECUTION, BUT THE FOCUS A LITTLE MORE WITH PUBLIC DEFENDERS ARE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

DO THEY HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL DUE PROCESS?

ARE THERE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS INSURED.

SO THESE ARE THE BIG ARGUMENTS.

I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THE PROSECUTOR WOULD SAY, HEY, AS A CONDITION OF THIS DIVERSION PROGRAM, WHY DON'T YOU ADMIT GUILT, SO THEY CHECK OFF THAT PROSECUTION ON THEIR LIST OF CASES.

SO, I CAN SEE -- Gene: LET ME ASK YOU THIS.

IF SOMEONE GETS KICKED OUT OF THE PROGRAM IS THERE NOT A DANGER THAT ADMISSION OF GUILT COULD COME BACK TO LITERALLY HAUNT THEM?

Edmund: YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

BY ADMITTING GUILT UP FRONT, IT AVOIDS THE COMPLETE DUE PROCESS FROM TAKING PLACE TO FURTHER EXAMINE OTHER ISSUES ASSOCIATED WITH THE CHARGE AND THE CRIME ITSELF.

AND SO I CAN SEE THE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS ARE SLOW TO MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION.

I THINK, ULTIMATELY, THIS IS CLEARLY A PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE.

AND, THE COST OF INCARCERATION -- UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN WE INCARCERATE, WE FAIL AS A SOCIETY.

THERE ARE COMPONENTS BEFORE THAT, PREVENTION, INTERVENTION AND TREATMENT AND IF WE ARE SUCCESSFUL WITH PREVENTION, INTERVENTION OR TREATMENT, WE AVOID THE INCARCERATION PIECE.

SOME STUDIES OUT THERE SHOW THAT INCARCERATION WILL COST TAXPAYERS 100,000 OR MORE A YEAR, SO IF WE CAN AVOID THAT STEP IN TREATMENT, WHY NOT?

I THINK, SO, THE DIVERSION PROGRAM HAS BEEN AROUND FOR SOME TIME AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THE DEFENSE SIDE AND PROSECUTION SIDE AND THEY CONTINUE TO WORK TOGETHER TO THE BEST INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY AND PUBLIC SAFETY.

Gene: JULIE ANN, I GOT TO ASK, THE REPORTING IN YOUR PAPER WAS INTERESTING.

EARLY ON, PEOPLE WHO WERE DIVERTED INTO THE PROGRAM RACKED UP FEWER ARRESTS IN THE FOLLOWING SIX MONTHS COMPARED TO A CONTROLLED GROUP, WHICH IS PRETTY INTERESTING.

AND ED MENTIONS MONEY, IT ALSO SAVED ABOUT $1500 PER CLIENT PER YEAR, RELATIVE TO THEIR NORMAL BURDEN ON THE JUSTICE SYSTEM AND HEALTHCARE.

SEEMS LIKE A NO BRAINER TO USE THIS PROGRAM AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

SO, IT HAS THE SUPPORT OF MAYOR WEBER.

IS THERE SOMETHING ON THE BRINK HERE TO MAKE THIS SORT OF BUST OUT AND BE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE?

Julie Ann: I THINK THE FOCUS OF THE WEBER ADMINISTRATION REALLY SHIFTED WITH THE LAUNCH OF THE ALTERNATIVE POLICING UNIT.

I MIGHT NOT HAVE THAT EXACTLY CORRECT.

THE CONCEPT IS SENDING SOCIAL SERVICE PROVIDERS, MEDICAL ATTENTION WHEN THERE ARE CALLS FOR SERVICE FROM FOLKS WHO MAY NOT REALLY NEED A COP.

AND SO, OF COURSE, THIS DECREASES INTERACTION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO MAYBE ARE JUST HAVING BEHAVIORAL HEALTH ISSUES OR THEY ARE ON SOMETHING THAT IS MAKING THEM ACT OUT OF THE LAW, BUT THEY DON'T REALLY -- I AM NOT SURE IF I AM ARTICULATING THAT SUPER WELL, BUT THE ALTERNATIVE UNIT IS THE THING THAT THE WEBER ADMINISTRATION IS FOCUSED ON MORE AND WE REALLY HAVEN'T HEARD A LOT FROM THEM.

THERE WAS REALLY NO RESPONSE TO THE STORY WE DID THAT SAID, HEY, WE ARE NOT USING OUR DIVERSION PROGRAM, WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?

WE DIDN'T GET A LOT OF TRACTION ON THAT AND I'M GLAD WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT IT ON HERE.

I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK TO ONE IDEA ABOUT THE GUILTY PLEA.

THAT IS LIKE BACK TO THE FOUNDATION OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

WHICH IS THAT THERE ARE DEFINITELY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT GUILT OF THE CRIME THEY ARE ACCUSED OF BUT WHO DO NEED SUBSTANCE AND BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SERVICES.

SO WE ARE REALLY CUTTING THEM OUT IF WE ARE FORCING THE GUILTY PLEA.

WE'RE PUTTING THEM IN A SITUATION THAT IS NOT GOING TO LEAD TO THEM PARTICIPATING WILLINGLY IN TREATMENT.

Gene: THAT IS AN EXCELLENT LAST NOTE.

THANK YOU FOR THAT AND THANK YOU FOR THE DISCUSSION AS WELL.

WE'LL BE BACK WITH MORE ANALYSIS FROM THE LINE IN LESS THAN 15 MINUTES TALKING ABOUT A NEW BILL MEANT TO ADDRESS CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT AND WHY IT IS CAUSING CONCERN AMONG CHILD WELFARE ADVOCATES.

3.7 BILLION-DOLLARS.

THAT IS HOW MUCH MONEY NEW MEXICO IS RECEIVING FROM THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT AND JOBS ACT.

IT IS A LOT OF MONEY BUT OUR STATE HAS A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS THAT NEED PROMPT ATTENTION.

THAT IS WHERE FORMER ALBUQUERQUE MAYOR MARTIN CHAVEZ COMES IN.

AS THE GOVERNOR'S INFRASTRUCTURE ADVISOR, MR. CHAVEZ GIVES SPENDING RECOMMENDATIONS AND AS HE TELLS GWYNETH DOLAND, HE WANTS THE PUBLIC INVOLVED EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

Gwyneth: SENIOR INFRASTRUCTURE ADVISOR, MARTIN CHAVEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

Chavez: WELL, THANK YOU AND IT IS SENIOR BECAUSE I AM NOW OLD.

Gwyneth: IT IS ALL EXPERTISE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SIGNED BACK IN NOVEMBER THE ONE TRILLION DOLLAR BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL AND THEN GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM APPOINTED YOU TO BE IN CHARGE OF SPENDING SOME OF THIS MONEY.

SHE SAID HER TOP THREE PRIORITIES WOULD BE BROADBAND, TRANSPORTATION AND WATER SYSTEMS.

AND YOU ARE MOSTLY OVER THIS SORT OF ROADS AND BRIDGES STUFF BUT ALSO OVERSEEING A LITTLE BIT OF THE BROADBAND AND WATER STUFF.

IT HAS BEEN A FEW MONTHS.

ARE THERE SPECIFICS COMING INTO FOCUS IN TERMS OF WHAT WE ARE DOING WITH THIS MONEY, THINGS THAT ARE GETTING THE GREEN LIGHT, LOOKING LIKE THEY ARE ABOUT TO HAPPEN?

Chavez: THERE ARE TWO POTS OF MONEY.

THE ARPA MONEY, AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN ACT, WHICH WE RECEIVED THE 1.1 BILLION.

WE HAD A LITTLE HICCUP ALONG THE WAY.

THE SUPREME COURT RULED THAT THE LEGISLATURE HAD TO APPROPRIATE SO THE GOVERNOR HAD A SPECIAL SESSION.

THEY APPROPRIATED ABOUT HALF OF IT AND COMPLETED THE REST OF IT TWO WEEKS AGO IN THE REGULAR SESSION.

THAT IS VERY BROAD MONEY.

BUT IT IS DIVVIED UP ABOUT A WHOLE LOT INTO BROADBAND.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS GOING TO BE ABOUT A BILLION IN BROADBAND BETWEEN THE TWO BUCKETS OF MONEY.

A LOT OF WORK ON ROADS, A LOT OF WATER SYSTEM WORK AND ALSO PART OF MY PORTFOLIO IS ENERGY TRANSITION, AS WE START TO MOVE TO A LOWER CARBON FOOTPRINT.

AND THEN PART OF THAT INCLUDES BUILDING RESILIENCE, CEILING ENVELOPES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE SO YOU CAN CAPTURE THE HEAT AND NOT RELEASE IT INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.

Gwyneth: NEW MEXICO HAS SOMETHING LIKE 200 BRIDGES AND ALMOST 4,000 MILES OF HIGHWAY THAT ARE IN POOR CONDITION.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE GRIPE ABOUT EVERYDAY.

PEOPLE AT HOME ARE THINKING, WHICH OF THESE ROADS ARE GETTING FIXED?

IS IT THE CRUMMY BRIDGE THAT I HAVE TO DRIVE OVER EVERYDAY?

HOW CAN PEOPLE FIND OUT WHAT IS GETTING APPROVED?

Chavez: VERY SHORTLY WE'LL HAVE A DASHBOARD.

WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON IT FOR TWO MONTHS, A TEAM OF DEVELOPERS.

YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TRACK THE FEDERAL DOLLARS FROM THEIR SOURCE IN WASHINGTON DOWN TO WHEN THEY GOT APPROPRIATED BY THE LEGISLATURE AND TO WHAT DEPARTMENTS THEY GO TO AND WHAT PROGRAMS THE DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO PUT THEM INTO.

LET'S TAKE STREETS, FOR EXAMPLE.

LET'S SAY THEY DECIDED TO DO PINON HILLS IN FARMINGTON.

THAT IS A LONG-AWAITED PROJECT THAT WAS FUNDED.

WHAT IS THE PROCESS FOR LETTING THE CONTRACT?

WHO GETS THE CONTRACT?

WHAT THEIR TIME LINES ARE.

YOU'LL BE ABLE TO TRACK AND SEE, IS IT ON TRACK?

SO IT IS A TREMENDOUS TOOL FOR POLICYMAKERS BUT ALSO A TRANSPARENCY TOOL FOR THE PUBLIC.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE YOUR MONEY IS BEING SPENT.

AS YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND GOVERNMENTAL FINANCE.

HALF THE PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT DON'T UNDERSTAND GOVERNMENTAL FINANCE.

BUT IT IS COMPLICATED AND IT IS NOT A MATTER OF SEEING THE PRESIDENT SIGN A BILL AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THERE IS THE MONEY RIGHT THERE.

BECAUSE IT IS PUBLIC MONEY AND THERE ARE ACCOUNTABILITY ISSUES.

Gwyneth: DO WE KNOW WHAT THAT WEBSITE IS YET?

Chavez: WELL, IT WILL BE -- INITIALLY IT IS GOING TO BE PART OF THE FINANCE AND ADMINISTRATION.

WE WANT TO MIGRATE IT OVER TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE BECAUSE THAT IS AN EASIER PLACE FOR THE PUBLIC TO GO.

AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THE BACK ROOM DEVELOPMENT AND WE ARE EXCITED ABOUT IT.

Gwyneth: DAMS.

U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS SAYS, QUOTE, HALF OF THE STATES 500 DAMS ARE IN ROUGH SHAPE AND A THIRD OF THEM COULD FAIL PUTTING LIVES IN DANGER DOWNSTREAM.

YOU HAVE SET THE PRIORITY IS FOR SHOVEL READY PROGRAMS.

HOW MANY DAM PROJECTS ARE SHOVEL READY?

Chavez: I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW MANY EXCEPT THAT THEY ARE PRIORITIZED BASED ON SAFETY.

I CAN ALSO TELL YOU THIS.

UNFORTUNATELY, FOR ALL THE MONEY THAT IS COMING INTO NEW MEXICO, IT IS NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH.

IT JUST ISN'T GOING TO BE ENOUGH BUT IT IS MORE THAN WE HAVE EVER HAD BEFORE SO SPENDING WISELY, EFFECTIVELY IS REALLY A NO.

1 PRIORITY FOR THE GOVERNOR AND EVERYBODY ON HER TEAM.

BUT WE HAD A DAM THAT NEARLY FAILED IN DONA ANA COUNTY.

THAT IS FUNDED NOW.

THEY ARE ALREADY STARTING TO WORK.

WHERE YOU FIND THE CONTRACTORS, IS ANOTHER ISSUE GETTING MONEY OUT THE DOOR, AND THAT IS CAPACITY.

THERE AREN'T ENOUGH CONTRACTORS.

WE ARE ALMOST AT FULL EMPLOYMENT IN NEW MEXICO AND WHEN YOU ADD 3.7 BILLION WORTH OF SPENDING, WHERE ARE THE ELECTIONS AND THE PLUMBERS AND THE ENGINEERS?

Gwyneth: EVERYBODY WHO IS TRYING TO REDO A BATHROOM RIGHT NOW FEELS THE STATE'S PAIN.

Chavez: THERE YOU GO.

I AM WORKING ON ADDING ONE RIGHT NOW.

UNFORTUNATELY I CAN'T SPEND ANY OF THIS MONEY ON IT.

Gwyneth: GOOD.

WE'LL FOLLOW-UP ON THAT.

BIG PICTURE TIMELINE HERE.

HOW LONG IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET THIS MONEY IN OUR BANK ACCOUNT AND GET IT BACK OUT?

Chavez: IT WILL TAKE BETWEEN ONE MONTH AND FIVE YEARS, DEPENDING ON THE PROGRAM.

THE ARPA MONEY IS PRETTY MUCH READY TO GO.

YOU'LL START TO SEE UNVEILING OF EV CHARGERS, ELECTRICAL VEHICLE CHARGERS.

THE PRESIDENT WAS COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE YOU CAN DRIVE FROM ONE END OF THE COUNTRY TO THE OTHER WITH ELECTRICAL VEHICLES.

RIGHT NOW IN NEW MEXICO YOU CAN GO PRETTY WELL EAST TO WEST.

NORTH TO SOUTH IS A PROBLEM.

YOU MAY HAVE TO STOP OVERNIGHT AND CHARGE FOR EIGHT HOURS TO GET THERE.

SO, THEY WILL BE DEPLOYED INITIALLY ALONG INTERSTATES AND WE ARE ALSO DESIGNATED AS GREEN CORRIDORS, GREEN FUEL CORRIDORS.

I-10 DOWN SOUTH AND THEN WE'LL START BRANCHING OUT.

ULTIMATELY THE GOAL IS TO HAVE EVERYONE LIVING WITHIN 50 MILES OF A CHARGER.

YOU KNOW, MOST CARS WILL GET CHARGED AT HOME.

THAT IS REALLY THE FUTURE.

BUT, IF YOU HAVE GOT TO DRIVE TO LAS VEGAS, NEW MEXICO OR WHEREVER IT MAY BE, YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHARGE ALONG THE WAY.

Gwyneth: IN JANUARY, THE GOVERNOR ASKED CITY AND COUNTY LEADERS ABOUT THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE PRIORITIES.

WHAT ARE LOCAL POLITICIANS TELLING YOU THEY WANT?

Chavez: WE STARTED OUT, PARTICULARLY WITH THE ARPA MONIES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AS WELL DESIGNATED.

THEY ARE BROAD CATEGORIES OF SPENDING.

IF YOU'RE IN THE GOVERNMENT BUSINESS YOU WANT AS MUCH FREEDOM IN DISCRETION AS YOU CAN.

WE WANT TO DO BIG THINGS.

AFTER THE SUPREME COURT DECISION, THE LEGISLATURE WAS REQUIRED TO REAPPROPRIATE AND THEY BASICALLY MIXED THAT INTO THE SMALL TRADITIONAL CAPITAL OUTLAY PROJECT, THE POCKET PARK HERE, THE SWIMMING POOL OVER HERE IN MY DISTRICT.

AND SO, THE PRIORITIES ARE PRETTY SIMPLE.

I WANT A GOOD ROAD.

IF YOU'RE IN RURAL NEW MEXICO, I WANT MY KIDS TO BE ABLE TO GET ON THE INTERNET TO DO THEIR SCHOOL WORK OR APPLY FOR JOBS.

AND THAT REALLY IS GOING TO BE, OF ALL THESE MONIES, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THE MOST TRANSFORMATIONAL IS GOING TO BE WIRING NEW MEXICO.

Gwyneth: IS THERE ANY CONFLICT BETWEEN WHAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM MAYORS AND COUNTY COMMISSIONS AND THE PRIORITIES THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS SET?

Chavez: CONFLICTS BETWEEN MAYORS AND COUNTY OFFICIALS AND GOVERNORS, IT COULDN'T HAPPEN IN NEW MEXICO.

SURE, THUS FAR IT IS COLLEGIAL.

IT IS COMPETITIVE.

AND WE INVITE THAT COMPETITION BECAUSE WE THINK THE BETTER PROJECTS RISE TO THE TOP IN THAT PROCESS.

SURE, THERE IS MORE DEMAND THAN THERE ARE RESOURCES SO THERE IS GOING TO BE COMPETITION.

Gwyneth: WHO MAKES THE DECISION?

YOU'RE THE INFRASTRUCTURE THE CZAR BUT IS THAT A REAL THIEFDOM OR WHAT IS THE PROCESS?

WHO MAKES THE DECISION AND WHO RANKS THE PROJECTS?

WHAT ARE THE CRITERIA?

Chavez: BOY I WISH IT WAS A THIEFDOM.

DON'T WE ALL.

NO.

THE GOVERNOR IS THE DECIDER IN CHIEF, AS THEY SAY, AND MY JOB IS TO GIVE HER ADVICE AND ALSO TO HELP CONSTRUCT A PROCESS TO GET THIS MONEY OUT THE DOOR.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS SHE LOOKED TO ME AND WE HAVE BEEN FRIENDS FOR A LONG.

ADVERSARIES FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT ALWAYS FRIENDS.

AND I THINK DURING MY TENURE AS MAYOR WE GOT A LOT DONE.

WE GOT MONEY OUT THE DOOR AND WE BUILT THINGS.

THAT IS WHAT SHE WANTS TO SEE DONE WITH THIS.

IT IS NOT DOING ANYBODY ANY GOOD SITTING IN THE BANKS.

Gwyneth: THE GOVERNOR SAID WE WERE GETTING ENOUGH MONEY OUT OF THE BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL 3.7 BILLION IN ORDER TO BENEFIT ALL COMMUNITIES.

HOW ARE YOU MAKING SURE THAT SMALLER, RURAL AREAS BENEFIT AS MUCH AS ALBUQUERQUE?

Chavez: PART OF THE GUIDANCE FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CENTERS AROUND EQUITY.

THIS HAS TO BE FAIR.

IT HAS TO BE FAIRLY DISTRIBUTED.

FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY ELECTRICAL VEHICLES CHARGERS HAVE BEEN DISTRIBUTED THUS FAR AROUND THE STATE, SOUTH VALLEY NONE.

SOUTHEAST HEIGHTS, EXCEPT FOR MANZANO MESA, WHICH KIND OF SERVICES THE FOUR HILLS AREA, NONE.

GO TO THE WESTSIDE OF THE STATE, GO OUT TO TRIBAL LAND, NOTHING.

THAT IS NOT EQUITABLE.

AND THAT IS WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO FIND MY PRESENCE VERY HEAVILY.

WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE IT BENEFITS ALL NEW MEXICANS.

THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THE GOVERNOR IS COMMITTED TO.

A LOT OF OUR ARPA THIS PAST SESSION ARE FOR HOUSING, FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND ASSISTANCE FOR PEOPLE ON THEIR MONEY DOWN TO BUY HOUSING.

THIS IS GOING WHERE IT IS NEEDED.

Gwyneth: YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT.

THE GOVERNOR IS A DEMOCRAT.

YOU INDIVIDUALLY HAVE A LOT OF POWER HERE.

IF I AM A REPUBLICAN SITTING IN HOBBS OR CLOVIS, HOW AM I REASSURED THAT I AM NOT GOING TO GET -- THAT MY TOWN ISN'T GOING TO GET PENALIZED BECAUSE WE VOTE REPUBLICAN.

Chavez: JUST WAIT.

WHEN YOU SEE THE ROAD MONIES IN NEW MEXICO, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THEM IN THE OIL PATCH AND IT WAS UNFORTUNATE, THE CONGRESSWOMAN FROM SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO VOTED AGAINST BOTH ARPA AND AGAINST ALL OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING, BUT WE DON'T PENALIZE CONSTITUENTS BECAUSE OF THE ERRORS IN JUDGMENT OF THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS.

IT IS ALL NEW MEXICO.

Gwyneth: WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO CHECK UP ON THAT IN THE WEBSITE THAT IS COMING ON LINE SOON WHERE WE WILL BE ABLE TO TRACK ALL OF THESE PROJECTS; IS THAT RIGHT?

Chavez: EXACTLY.

IT WILL TAKE TIME.

THE LEGISLATURE JUST MADE DECISIONS TWO WEEKS AGO THAT MONEY HAS TO BE BUDGETED, NEEDS TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR, THEN YOU NEED TO LET CONTRACTS AND STUMBLE ON ALL THESE ISSUES OF CAPACITY WE TALKED ABOUT.

IT WILL TAKE TIME AND SOME OF THE FEDERAL MONIES, UNDER THE BIL, BIPARTISAN INFRASTRUCTURE LAW, ARE PROGRAMMED TO TAKE FIVE YEARS.

THE MONEY IS SPREAD OVER A FIVE YEAR PERIOD.

SO, WHEN PEOPLE GO ONLINE, THEY'LL SEE THE BEGINNINGS OF IT BUT AS IT DEVELOPS IT WILL BECOME MUCH MORE TEXTURIZED, IF YOU WILL.

Gwyneth: IF I AM OUT THERE IN VANDERWAGON OR MORA AND I AM LIKE, HEY, WE REALLY NEED THIS FLOOD PROJECT OR THIS DAM OR WHATEVER, HOW DO I SAY, HEY, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO MY PROJECT?

HOW DO I GET THAT TO YOU?

Chavez: THEY CONTACT ME THROUGH THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

WE RECOMMEND THAT PEOPLE CONTACT THE GOVERNOR DIRECTLY.

SHE WANTS TO HEAR FROM NEW MEXICANS.

NOW THAT WE SEEM TO BE EXITING THIS PANDEMIC, SHE REALLY LIKES TO GET OUT AROUND THE STATE AND SHE'S ALREADY TRAVELING.

HIT HER UP DIRECTLY.

GO TO RECEPTIONS AND SAY, HEY, GOVERNOR WHAT ABOUT THIS?

THEN ALSO TO THE LEGISLATORS.

WE WORK AS BEST AS COULD BE WORKED WITH THE LEGISLATURE IN THIS LAST SESSION.

IT IS DIFFICULT WHEN THE BUILDING IS CLOSED OFF, EVERYONE IS MASKED AND YOU HAVE ALL THESE PROTOCOLS.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.

BUT WE ARE STARTING TO GO BEYOND THAT.

START TALKING.

THERE IS A REASON THAT THE SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE OIL.

IT NEEDS IT.

Gwyneth: WE'LL PUT SOME CONTACT INFORMATION UP ON THE WEBSITE AND ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO REACH OUT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

Chavez: SURE.

IT IS GOING TO BE FUN.

Gene: GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM IS CONSIDERING A BILL PASSED THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE LAST MONTH THAT WOULD CHANGE THE WAY THE STATE ADDRESSES CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT CASES.

ACCORDING TO REPORTING FROM SEARCHLIGHT NEW MEXICO, THE BILL CREATES THE OFFICE OF FAMILY REPRESENTATION AND ADVOCACY.

THAT WOULD BE A CENTRALIZED AGENCY WITH FIVE LOCATION AROUND THE STATE, EACH STAFFED WITH ATTORNEYS, SOCIAL WORKERS AND OTHERS TO HANDLE THESE CASES.

THE CONTROVERSY IS ROOTED IN SOME CHILD ADVOCACY ATTORNEYS WHO SAY THIS WILL COST A LOT OF MONEY WITHOUT RESOLVING THE CORE PROBLEMS IN OUR STATE'S APPROACH TO CHILD WELFARE, SPECIFICALLY THE QUALITY OF REPRESENTATION FOR CHILDREN.

WITH THAT SAID, IS THIS BILL, MICHAEL BIRD, A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION OR ARE WE PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE HERE?

Michael: WELL, I GUESS THIS IS FOR NEW MEXICO, WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO, THIS IS ONE OF THOSE LONG-STANDING ISSUES THAT GOES BACK UNFORTUNATELY FAR TOO LONG AND, OF COURSE, THE FAMILIES AND CHILDREN THAT END UP IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE ARE THE ONES WHO BEAR THE BURDEN.

SO, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, AGAIN, FOR ME, IT SEEMS LIKE IT IS A STRUCTURAL SORT OF ISSUE IN THAT WE HAVE A HOST OF ISSUES THAT HAVE ALWAYS CHALLENGED NEW MEXICO, CHILD POVERTY, POVERTY IN GENERAL, FAMILIES THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED BY SUBSTANCE ABUSE AND A HOST OF OTHER ISSUES THAT CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT THAT CAN UNFORTUNATELY PUT CHILDREN, FAMILIES AND CHILDREN AT RISK.

THERE HAVE BEEN IT SEEMS TO ME A NUMBER OF ITERATIONS ON SOLUTIONS TO ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE.

I GUESS THE TAKEAWAY I HAVE IS THAT YOU HAVE ADVOCATES WHO HAVE BEEN ENGAGED IN THIS AREA OF ACTIVITY FOR QUITE SOME TIME AND IF, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, IF THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THEM OR SOME OF THEM ARE RAISING ISSUES AND CONCERNS, I GUESS I WOULD HAVE TO JUST KIND OF WONDER, WELL, WAS THERE NOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE PEOPLE IN A CONVERSATION AND HAVE SOME DISCOURSE ON, IN EFFECT, IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

IF THAT CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE, PEOPLE WERE ENGAGED, ALL THOSE PEOPLE WITH VESTED INTEREST IN THIS AND HISTORY IN IT WERE ENGAGED AND THIS WAS WHAT WAS PROPOSED, WITH THEM, THEN, MAYBE THERE IS SOMETHING WORTH PURSUING.

IF NOT, THEN IT WOULD SEEM TO ME A CONVERSATION -- IF YOU'RE GOING TO ADDRESS AN ISSUE THAT IS THIS CRITICAL AND OF THIS SIGNIFICANCE ON THE STATE, THAT THERE NEEDS TO REALLY BE GREATER CONVERSATIONS.

I AM NOT IN GOVERNMENT SO SOMEBODY COULD SAY, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALK ABOUT, BUT IF THERE IS A PROBLEM YOU SIT DOWN AND PULL PEOPLE TOGETHER AND YOU TRY AND DRAW UP THE BEST SOLUTION TO ADDRESSING IT.

Gene: JULIE ANN, SUPPORTERS OF THE BILL, ALBUQUERQUE NONPROFIT PEGASUS LEGAL SERVICES FOR CHILDREN, FOR EXAMPLE, SAYS THIS PROGRAM WILL HELP SHIFT MENTALITY AWAY FROM A PUNITIVE APPROACH, KIDS ARE TAKEN FROM THEIR PARENTS AT THE DROP, TO MUCH MORE OF A PREVENTIVE MINDSET.

MEANING, WE ARE GOING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS BEFORE CASES ARE EVEN FILED.

IS THAT HOW WE SHOULD BE APPROACHING THESE SITUATIONS?

IT SEEMS LOGICAL.

Julie Ann: I THINK LIKE A LOT OF APPROACHES TO THESE PROBLEMS, THE SIMPLE THEORY BEHIND THEM IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

THE PROBLEM IS THEN THE IMPLEMENTATION.

SO YOU HAVE GOT THIS AGENCY THAT HAS BEEN CREATED, AND MIND YOU, THIS MOVED THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS IN A RATHER UNREMARKABLE WAY.

YOU HAD UNANIMOUS APPROVAL ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, NOT A SINGLE LEGISLATOR VOTED AGAINST IT IN THE HOUSE, AND IN THE SENATE ONLY TWO PEOPLE VOTED AGAINST IT.

SO THAT IS AN INTERESTING NOTE, I THINK, BUT REALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE GOT HERE IS A SYSTEM THAT WAS ENVISIONED TO PERFORM SIMILARLY TO THE LAW OFFICE OF THE PUBLIC DEFENDER, TO BE AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY FOR LAWYERS WHO ADVOCATE FOR CHILDREN AND PARENTS AND SERVE AS THEIR ATTORNEYS IN COURT.

BUT WHAT HAPPENED AS THIS WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS IS THAT IT BECAME ANOTHER BUREAUCRATIC ADJUNCT UNDER THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

AND SO I THINK THAT SORT OF IS LEVEL 1 OF WHAT MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.

Gene: EXPLAIN THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE.

THAT IS THE NUT OF THIS.

THERE IS A LOT OF HOUSES BEING IMPLEMENTED.

EXPAND ON THAT A LITTLE BIT, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOW IT SHOULD HAVE COME LEGISLATIVELY ACCORDING TO SOME PEOPLE VERSUS HOW IT ACTUALLY DID HAPPEN.

Julie Ann: WELL, JUST THAT THE LAW OFFICE OF THE PUBLIC DEFENDER IS AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY.

THE HEAD OF THAT OFFICE IS NOT REALLY BEHOLDING TO -- DOES NOT ATTEND CABINET MEETINGS, IS NOT PART OF THE POLITICAL AGENDA.

ALSO NOT PART OF THE JUDICIARY, NOT UNDER THE -- THE JUDGE IS NOT THE BOSS OF THE PUBLIC DEFENDER.

IN THIS CASE, YOU'RE REALLY CREATING A STATE AGENCY, THE GOVERNOR IS THE BOSS.

AND YOU'RE ALSO -- THERE IS ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH LAWYERS, YOU KNOW.

THE LAW OFFICE OF THE PUBLIC DEFENDER CAN'T HANDLE ALL THE NECESSARY CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT CASES WITH SPECIALTY BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ENOUGH LAWYERS.

I LOVE WHAT AN OPINION LETTER WRITER IN THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL SAID ABOUT THIS, WHICH WAS, CREATING THIS OFFICE WILL NOT MAGICALLY CREATE NEW, DIFFERENT AND BETTER ATTORNEYS.

AND IN NEW MEXICO, WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH ATTORNEYS NOT WANTING TO SERVE IN PUBLIC OFFICES, NOT QUALIFIED, EXPERIENCED ATTORNEYS AND NOT IN RURAL AREAS OF WHICH WE HAVE MANY.

Gene: ED, THE GOVERNOR JUST APPROVED SOME PAY RAISES FOR A BIG CHUNK OF PUBLIC EMPLOYEES TO ADDRESS THIS.

JULIE ANN IS NOT SAYING IT IS JUST ABOUT MONEY CERTAINLY BUT IT IS ABOUT MONEY IN MANY WAYS, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

SO, I HAVE TO SAY, AGAIN, THE PLAN SEEMS LIKE THIS IS WHAT FOLKS HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS, WHEN YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.

TO HAVE A SEPARATE UNIT HERE AND REALLY GET CLOSER TO THE PROBLEM ON THE GROUND HERE.

I AM INTERESTED IN YOUR SENSE ON THAT ANGLE.

Edmund: IN MY PRIVATE PRACTICE, I WORK WITH A LOT OF JL'S AND DEAL WITH CASES ABOUT ABUSED AND NEGLECTED CHILDREN FROM TIME TO TIME AND I LOOK AT THIS ALMOST LIKE ON THE SURFACE IT SOUNDS GREAT.

WE ALL WANT GREATER OVERSIGHT, WE ALL WANT A BETTER SYSTEM.

BUT WHAT WE ARE THROWING INTO THIS IS ANOTHER BUREAUCRACY.

WAS THERE A WAY TO ACCOMPLISH THE SAME GOALS AND OBJECTIVES BY IMPROVING THE CURRENT SYSTEM VERSUS CREATING FUNDING FOR A WHOLE NEW AGENCY?

WILL IT WORK?

WELL, THAT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY.

THERE ARE PROPONENTS, BUT THERE ARE OPPONENTS AND SOME OF THE OPPONENTS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO ARE A LITTLE BIT CONCERNED THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE LEVEL OF INPUT.

THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO CONVEY TO THE COMMITTEE WHO WAS REVIEWING THIS BILL OF POTENTIAL UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, THAT MIGHT IMPACT THEIR ULTIMATE MISSION.

AND THERE ARE CONFLICT OF INTEREST ISSUES AND SOME OTHER THINGS THAT MIGHT TAKE PLACE.

SO, THE BILL IS IN PLACE, IT IS LAW, IT HAS BEEN SIGNED.

AT THIS POINT IT IS WAIT AND SEE, AND MAYBE THERE IS A WAY TO TWEAK IT DOWN THE ROAD TO ENSURE THAT WE ARE ACCOMPLISHING WHAT THE BILL IS INTENDED TO DO.

Gene: I WONDER, YOUR OPINION.

ALSO ONE FOR MICHAEL AS WELL, BUT YOUR OPINION ABOUT THE LAWYER TURNOVER THAT JULIE ANN MENTIONED.

DOES THIS HELP SOLVE THAT IN YOUR VIEW, HAVING THESE FIELD OFFICES AND ALL THAT KIND A THING?

Edmund: IF CONVENIENCE IS THE REASON WHY ATTORNEYS PURSUE A POSITION AT ANY GIVEN PLACE, THEN, CONVENIENCE, MIGHT COME IN PLAY.

THE LEVEL OR NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS THAT SEEK POSITIONS FOR CONVENIENCE, THAT IS HARD TO SAY.

ULTIMATELY, THIS TYPE OF LAWYERING, IF YOU WILL, IS VERY DIFFICULT.

IT IS HIGHLY EMOTIONAL.

IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT FIELD IN WHICH TO OPERATE AND I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY THAT MOST OF THE TURNOVER IS A RESULT OF THE HIGH PRESSURE AND MAYBE LOW PAY.

SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, PAY MAY BE A MOTIVATOR.

SOME PEOPLE PAY SAY, OKAY I AM WILLING TO PUT UP WITH WHAT I HAVE TO IN ORDER TO BE AN EFFECTIVE ATTORNEY IN THESE TYPES OF CASES IF I MAKE ENOUGH.

AND THAT TOO REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

Gene: 20 SECONDS.

GO AHEAD, JULIE ANN.

Julie Ann: I WAS GOING TO SAY WHEN YOU SAID THE QUESTION EARLIER AND YOU TALKED ABOUT PREVENTION VERSUS PUNISHMENT, I THINK YOU LEFT OUT THE WORD WHICH REALLY GETS USED A LOT WHICH IS UNIFICATION.

AND THAT IS THE PUSH THAT YOU SEE IN NEW MEXICO THAT I THINK IS ALSO NOT WITHOUT FLAW.

AS A JOURNALIST I HAVE COVERED LOTS OF CASES WHERE REUNIFICATION ALLOWS PARENTS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HURT THEIR CHILDREN AGAIN.

I THINK SORT OF PAINTING THAT BROAD BRUSH THAT UNIFICATION IS THE SAME THING AS PREVENTION IS A LITTLE DANGEROUS ALSO.

I JUST WANTED TO RAISE THAT.

Gene: MIKE, THAT WILL BE THE LAST WORD THERE.

MY FAULT THERE.

DIDN'T MEAN TO SKIP YOU.

BY THE WAY, PUBLIC DEFENDERS ARE NOT GETTING ANY MONEY THIS TIME AROUND.

SHOULD THEY HAVE GOTTEN SOME?

IS THIS PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE?

Michael: I WOULD THINK SO.

THE OTHER THING IS JUST, QUICKLY, I THINK THAT HOW ARE WE EVALUATING?

IS THERE A MECHANISM FOR EVALUATING THIS MODEL, THIS APPROACH, SO THAT WE, IN FACT, KNOW IS IT IMPROVING THINGS?

ARE THINGS BETTER OR WORSE?

HOW DOES IT STAND AND WITHOUT SOME SORT OF EVALUATION IN THERE, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW.

Gene: THAT IS A GOOD POINT THERE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT ISSUE.

WE'LL RETURN TO THE LINE ONE FINAL TIME IN LESS THAN 15 MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE, HOW IT IS AFFECTING GAS PRICES ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND A NEW PROPOSAL FROM THE GOVERNOR TO HELP LOWER THOSE COSTS ON CONSUMERS.

THE LEGISLATURE WRAPPED UP THE REGULAR 30-DAY SESSION LAST MONTH.

AND WE ARE STILL LEARNING ABOUT SOME OF THE BILLS THAT WERE PASSED.

THAT, ALONG WITH A RISE IN DUMMY BILLS AND OMNIBUS BILLS PACKED FULL OF AMENDMENTS, ARE ALL CONCERNS FOR THE WATCHDOG GROUP, FOUNDATION FOR OPEN GOVERNMENT.

CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND CAUGHT UP WITH THE GROUP'S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR HERE IN NEW MEXICO TO RECAP SOME OF THE RECENT POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS AND WHAT CAN BE DONE TO KEEP THE PUBLIC BETTER INFORMED.

Gwyneth: SHANNON KUNKEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

Kunkel: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

Gwyneth: IN HONOR OF SUNSHINE WEEK, WHICH IS COMING UP, WE ARE CHECKING IN WITH YOU ON THE STATE OF TRANSPARENCY IN NEW MEXICO.

FIRST, WE HAVE JUST FINISHED THE 30-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION, HOPEFULLY THE LAST THAT WE'LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THESE PANDEMIC-RELATED RESTRICTIONS.

WHAT WAS GOOD ABOUT THIS LAST SESSION IN TERMS OF ACCESS FOR THE PUBLIC?

Kunkel: EVEN BEFORE THE SESSION BEGAN FOG SENT A LETTER TO LEGISLATIVE LEADERSHIP AND WE ASKED FOR CERTAIN MEASURES TO BE PUT IN PLACE FOR TRANSPARENCY PURPOSES.

ONE OF THOSE WAS ENSURING THAT THE WEBCAST WAS UP AND RUNNING AND THAT IF AT ANY POINT IT WENT DOWN, THEY WOULD HALT PROCEEDINGS UNTIL THEY COULD CLEAR UP THE TECHNICAL ISSUES.

SO, FOR THE PUBLIC, WHAT WAS REALLY GREAT ABOUT HAVING ACCESS VIA WEBCAST AND ZOOM IS THAT YOUR TYPICAL MOM DOWN IN SILVER CITY WAS ABLE TO HOP ON ZOOM, MAKE A COMMENT ABOUT THE TEACHERS SALARY ISSUE, FOR EXAMPLE, WITHOUT HAVING TO MAKE THE TRIP UP TO SANTA FE.

Gwyneth: DO YOU THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD CONTINUE AFTER THE PANDEMIC IS OVER?

Kunkel: I REALLY DO.

I THINK IT IS IDEAL FOR FOLKS TO BE ABLE TO TUNE IN REMOTELY, ESPECIALLY WE ARE THE FIFTH LARGEST STATE IN THE COUNTRY GEOGRAPHICALLY, SO IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE TO HAVE THAT REMOTE OPTION.

THAT SAID, IT IS IDEAL FOR EVERYONE TO BE UP IN THE BUILDING AND HAVE THOSE FACE-TO-FACE INTERACTIONS WITH LAWMAKERS.

Gwyneth: WHAT WAS NOT SO GOOD ABOUT TRANSPARENCY?

Kunkel: ONE THING, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE ZOOM THAT WE HAD REQUESTED WAS THAT LAWMAKERS BE ON CAMERA DURING THE HEARINGS AND THAT WAS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.

SO, IT WAS HARD TO KNOW WHO WAS REALLY TUNED IN AND PAYING ATTENTION TO THE COMMITTEE HEARINGS.

ANOTHER THING THAT WAS DIFFICULT WAS THAT THERE WAS ONE COMMITTEE, THE SENATE COMMITTEES COMMITTEE, WHICH DETERMINES THE GERMANENESS OF BILLS IN A 30-DAY SESSION.

Gwyneth: THEY GET TO DECIDE WHETHER THE BILL GETS HEARD OR NOT?

Kunkel: EXACTLY.

SO IN A 30-DAY BUDGET SESSION, ONLY THINGS THAT ARE ON THE GOVERNOR'S CALL ARE RULED TO BE HEARD OTHER THAN BUDGET MATTERS.

SO, BASICALLY, THIS COMMITTEE DECIDED WHETHER BILLS MOVED FORWARD OR DIED THAT DAY.

AND THOSE PROCEEDINGS WERE NOT WEBCAST.

THEY WERE ALLOWING CITIZENS TO SIT IN THE ROOM TO OBSERVE THE PROCEEDINGS, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH BETTER FOR THE PUBLIC TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WATCH THOSE AND THE HOUSE HAS A SIMILAR COMMITTEE, THE HOUSE RULES OF ORDER AND BUSINESS COMMITTEE AND THEY WERE WEBCASTING SO IT WAS A LITTLE BIT DISJOINTED IN THAT WAY.

Gwyneth: ONE OF THE THINGS WE COMPLAINED ABOUT AS JOURNALISTS OVER THE YEARS IS DUMMY BILLS.

THEY ARE SORT OF BLANK PIECES OF PAPER THAT ARE SUBMITTED EARLY IN THE SESSION AS A BILL.

THERE IS NOTHING IN IT BUT THEY CAN PULL IT OUT AT THE LAST MINUTE, WRITE SOMETHING UP AND SEND IT THROUGH.

DOES THAT BUG YOU GUYS.

Kunkel: IT DOES.

I THINK THEY ARE TO BE USED IN CASES OF EMERGENCY, RIGHT?

IF, YOU KNOW, WE WERE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF CATASTROPHIC EVENT LIKE A COVID SORT OF SITUATION CROP UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LEGISLATURE, THEY COULD PULL ONE OF THESE BILLS TOGETHER AND ADDRESS A PROBLEM.

UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN IS BILLS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY TABLED, THEN GET RESURRECTED AT THE 11TH HOUR USING THESE DUMMY BILLS AND IT CAN AT TIMES SKIRT THE COMMITTEE PROCESS.

WHICH IS REALLY WHEN THE PUBLIC HAS A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN AND MAKE COMMENTS.

SO, WE LIKE FOR BILLS TO MAKE THEIR WAY TO THE GOVERNOR'S DESK IN THE TRADITIONAL MANNER WHERE IT IS ASSIGNED TO COMMITTEE, THE PUBLIC IS ABLE TO SPEAK OUT AND THEN IT MOVES TO THE FLOOR.

Gwyneth: LET ME ALSO ASK YOU ABOUT THESE OMNIBUS BILLS THAT HAPPEN DURING A BUDGET SESSION.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THOSE?

Kunkel: WELL, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY IN A SHORT SESSION RIGHT AT THE END, WE HAD FOLKS WHO WERE CALLING FOG ASKING, SAYING, HEY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN THIS BILL?

IT WAS REALLY HARD TO KEEP TRACK OF.

EVEN JOURNALISTS WHO ARE VETERAN REPORTERS AT THE ROUNDHOUSE WERE CONFUSED AT THE LAST MINUTE.

WHAT IS IN?

WHAT IS OUT?

WHEN ALL OF THESE BILLS WERE ROLLED TOGETHER AND AMENDED AT THE LAST MINUTE.

Gwyneth: IT CAN BE HUNDREDS OF PAGES AND IT IS LIKE AN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIG TRYING TO FIGURE OUT DID THAT END UP IN THIS BILL OR DID THEY GET RID OF IT.

Kunkel: EXACTLY AND WHEN YOU'RE HAVING THESE AMENDMENTS TO AMENDMENTS AND THEY ARE HAPPENING ON THE FLOOR, THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO COMMENT OR WEIGH IN ON ANY PARTICULAR PROVISION.

Gwyneth: AN AMENDMENT CAN COMPLETELY CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE BILL.

Kunkel: ABSOLUTELY.

IT CAN CHANGE HOW THE LEGISLATION WORKS ENTIRELY.

Gwyneth: THE LEGISLATURE ALSO MET LATE LAST YEAR TO FINALIZE REDISTRICTING PLANS THAT HAVE BEEN FORWARDED TO THEM BY THE FIRST-EVER CITIZENS REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE AND THAT COMMITTEE'S WORK WAS LARGELY PRAISED FOR ITS ACCESSIBILITY AND OPENNESS TO THE PUBLIC.

WHAT ABOUT THE PROCESS WHEN IT GOT TO THE LEGISLATURE?

WAS THAT AS GOOD?

Kunkel: NO IT WAS NOT AS GOOD WITH THE LEGISLATURE.

THE REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE WAS TERRIFIC IN THAT THEY HELD HYBRID MEETINGS AROUND THE STATE WHERE YOU COULD PARTICIPATE VIA ZOOM, YOU COULD ACTUALLY MEET WITH THE FOLKS ON THE COMMITTEE AND THAT WAS TERRIFIC.

ONCE WE GOT TO THE LEGISLATURE, WE SAW A LOT OF CLOSED DOOR SESSIONS WHERE THEY WERE DISCUSSING THE MAPS.

FOG ACTUALLY SENT A LETTER TO LAWMAKERS URGING THEM TO CONDUCT THEIR WORK IN PUBLIC.

UNFORTUNATELY, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN TO A LARGE DEGREE.

Gwyneth: WE HAVE 10 YEARS BEFORE THEY TAKE UP REDISTRICTING AGAIN, WHICH IS A LONG TIME, BUT ALSO ALLOWS US TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT WANT TO DO IT BETTER.

DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR HOW THAT SHOULD CHANGE NEXT TIME?

Kunkel: IN THE 30-DAY SESSION, A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT WAS PROPOSED TO CREATE AN INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION WHICH WOULD HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ESSENTIALLY MAKE THE MAPS AND SKIRT THE LEGISLATURE ALTOGETHER.

WE DO THINK THAT FOR TRANSPARENCY PURPOSES, THAT MIGHT BE THE BETTER ROUTE SO LONG AS THAT COMMITTEE OPERATED IN A SIMILAR -- THAT COMMISSION, I APOLOGIZE, OPERATED IN SIMILAR MANNER TO THE COMMITTEE WHERE IT WAS RECEIVING PUBLIC INPUT AND KEEPING THE PROCESS IN THE LIGHT.

Gwyneth: WHATEVER THEY DECIDE, THAT IS IT.

THE LEGISLATURE DOESN'T GET TO TAKE IT BACK IN AND MESS WITH IT.

Kunkel: EXACTLY.

IT REALLY DOES MAKE SENSE THAT WAY.

Gwyneth: AT LEAST TWICE IN RECENT YEARS, LOBBYISTS HAVE ACCUSED STATE LAWMAKERS OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT.

AND IN BOTH CASES, THERE HAS ARISEN THIS TENSION BETWEEN PRIVACY AND TRYING TO PROTECT SOME ELEMENT OF THE PRIVATE LIVES OF THESE ACCUSERS WITH A TRANSPARENT PROCESS THAT HOLDS POLITICIANS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

HOW CAN WE BALANCE PRIVACY AND TRANSPARENCY WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE THIS?

Kunkel: THAT IS BASICALLY WHAT FOG DEALS WITH ALL THE TIME IS THIS RIGHT TO PRIVACY VERSUS THE PUBLIC'S RIGHT TO KNOW.

IN MOST CASES, THE PUBLIC'S RIGHT TO KNOW REALLY DOES TRUMP PRIVACY, PARTICULARLY WITH ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO WAIVE SOME OF THOSE RIGHTS BY RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANY INVESTIGATION BE AS PUBLIC AND TRANSPARENT AS POSSIBLE.

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO BE ABLE TO HOLD ACCOUNTABLE OFFICIALS FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR WHILE SERVING US IN OFFICE.

Gwyneth: ONE OF THE QUIRKS OF THIS PROCESS RIGHT NOW IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE IS IN CHARGE OF POLICING ITSELF.

WHY DO THESE THINGS NOT GO TO THE NEW, AND BY MANY ACCOUNTS, PRETTY WELL FUNCTIONING, ETHICS COMMISSION?

Kunkel: I THINK IDEALLY THEY SHOULD.

I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE ETHICS COMMISSION, YOU KNOW, WE COULD HAVE LEGISLATION PASSED THAT WOULD REFER THESE TYPES OF COMPLAINTS TO THE INDEPENDENT ETHICS COMMISSION WHICH FOG FOUGHT PRETTY HARD TO ENSURE THAT THEIR PROCESS, THE STATE ETHICS COMMISSION, IS ONE THAT IS VERY TRANSPARENT AND THAT WAS SOMETHING FOG WORKED HARD TO ENSURE.

Gwyneth: YES.

ON THE LOCAL LEVEL, YOU KNOW, CITY COUNCILS, COUNTY COMMISSIONS, THEY HAVE HAD A LOT OF TIME TO ADAPT TO PANDEMIC RESTRICTIONS KEEPING THEIR MEETINGS OPEN BY GOING ONLINE IN MANY OF THE SAME WAYS THAT THE LEGISLATURE DID.

TECHNOLOGY HELPED.

BUT WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO GET INFORMATION FROM GOVERNMENT AGENCIES THROUGH OUR STATE PROCESS WHICH IS CALLED IPRA HERE, HOW WELL ARE WE DOING RIGHT NOW ON MAKING SURE THAT CITIZENS HAVE ACCESS TO THE RECORDS OF THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT?

Kunkel: THAT HAS BEEN A REAL PROBLEM THROUGHOUT THE PANDEMIC AND WE AT FOG OPERATE A HOT LINE WHERE CITIZENS, JOURNALISTS AND OTHERS CAN CALL IF THEY ARE HAVING PROBLEMS RECEIVING RECORDS FROM GOVERNMENT BODIES.

AND THAT HOT LINE HAS BEEN RINGING OFF THE HOOK SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR.

THEY ARE CITING MANY OF THESE DIFFERENT CITIES AND AGENCIES, CABINET DEPARTMENTS, ARE CITING STAFFING SHORTAGES.

WE KNOW THERE IS AN EMPLOYMENT CRISIS IN THE COUNTRY.

AND GOVERNMENT IS SEEING THAT AS WELL.

SO, MANY OF THEM ARE SAYING, HEY, WE DON'T HAVE THE STAFF TO PULL TOGETHER THESE RECORDS THAT CITIZENS ARE REQUESTING.

QUITE FRANKLY, THAT IS JUST NOT AN EXCUSE THAT WE CAN ACCEPT.

IT IS AN ESSENTIAL FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT UNDER THE LAW.

Gwyneth: LIKE KEEPING THE LIGHTS ON AND KEEPING THE WATER FLOWING.

Kunkel: EXACTLY.

AND EVEN WITHIN THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE WHICH IS CHARGED WITH COMPLIANCE, THEY ARE HAVING STAFFING SHORTAGES.

SO, WHEN CITIZENS SUBMIT A COMPLAINT TO THE AG'S OFFICE, OFTENTIMES, THERE IS REALLY CONSIDERABLE DELAYS IN THAT PROCESS, AS WELL.

SO, THERE IS REALLY NO RECOURSE FOR CITIZENS RIGHT NOW OTHER THAN FILING LAWSUITS.

Gwyneth: THAT IS EXPENSIVE, THOUGH.

YOU'RE WORKING ON A SOLUTION TO THAT, AREN'T YOU?

Kunkel: WE ARE.

SO, EVEN NEWSROOMS HAVE TROUBLE SOMETIMES FILING THESE TYPES OF LAWSUITS BECAUSE OF SHRINKING BUDGETS AND THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE AN ATTORNEY AVAILABLE.

CERTAINLY THE PUBLIC MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO HIRE AN ATTORNEY TO GET A GOVERNMENT RECORD.

FOG LAUNCHED A CAMPAIGN LAST YEAR TO HIRE WHAT WE ARE DUBBING OUR STATE SUNSHINE ATTORNEY.

AND THIS ATTORNEY WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR CITIZENS, JOURNALISTS, BUSINESS FOLKS WHEN THEY ARE HAVING PROBLEMS GETTING RECORDS.

WE HAVE RAISED TO DATE IN CASH IN THE BUDGET, 295,000, WHICH WOULD REALLY GO A LONG WAY TO OUR 300,000 GOAL.

WE ARE IN THE HOME STRETCH.

OUR HOPE IS THAT WE'LL BE ABLE TO GET SOMEBODY HIRED ON BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

Gwyneth: IF I AM TRYING TO GET INFORMATION FROM THE CITY COUNCIL ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOING TO PUT A ROUNDABOUT NEAR MY HOUSE AND THEY WON'T GIVE IT TO ME, I CAN CALL YOU GUYS AND SAY, WHAT CAN I DO HERE, AND THAT STAFF ATTORNEY COULD HELP ME.

Kunkel: YEAH.

THE KIND OF THINGS THEY MIGHT DO TO START WITH ARE SEND A LETTER TO THE CITY COUNCIL, HEY, WE ARE GOING TO PUT YOU ON NOTICE YOU NEED TO GIVE THE CITIZENS THIS INFORMATION.

OR, YOU KNOW, IT COULD GO SO FAR AS A LAWSUIT IN DISTRICT COURT.

Gwyneth: THOSE LETTERS FROM LAWYERS ACTUALLY WORK, BECAUSE PEOPLE GET SCARED BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO GET SUED AND IT DOES GIVE THEM A KICK IN THE PANTS, DOESN'T IT?

Kunkel: ABSOLUTELY.

EVEN WHEN I, WHO AM NOT A LAWYER, SEND A LETTER ON BEHALF OF FOG, IT CAN GET THE ATTENTION OF THESE AGENCIES.

Gwyneth: SUNSHINE WEEK IS COMING UP AND WE WILL ALL BE LOOKING FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY IN GOVERNMENT IN NEW MEXICO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, SHANNON, FOR BEING WITH US.

Kunkel: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

Gene: LET'S WELCOME BACK OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS ONE FINAL TIME.

GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM LAST WEEK CALLED ON THE STATE INVESTMENT COUNCIL TO IMMEDIATELY EVALUATE THE STATE'S PORTFOLIO AND DIVEST ALL STATE RESOURCES TO ANYTHING TIED TO THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT.

THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE ESTIMATES THAT IS JUST ABOUT EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS.

IS THIS A COMMON SENSE MOVE FOR US CONSIDERING THE ATROCITIES, ED, WE ARE SEEING IN RUSSIA -- RUSSIA CARRYING OUT IN UKRAINE.

EVERYBODY HAS AN URGE TO DO SOMETHING.

I AM INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINION ON THE GOVERNOR'S MOVE HERE.

Edmund: GENE, YOU'RE RIGHT.

WE ALL AGREE THERE IS SUCH ATROCITIES HAPPENING TO THE CITIZENS OF UKRAINE AND IT IS A VERY SAD SITUATION.

THE MOVE TO DIVEST INVESTMENTS FROM RUSSIA, YOU ALWAYS MAYBE HAVE TO STEP BACK.

WE ALL WANT TO DO SOMETHING.

WE ALL FEEL WHAT CAN WE DO TO HOPEFULLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE, BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ECONOMICS.

SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT WILL YOU BE CREATING THROUGH SOME OF OUR DECISIONS AND WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

WHERE IS THE LINE IN THE SAND?

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE COUNTRIES ACROSS THE WORLD WHO HAVE VERY POOR HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS.

THERE IS CHINA WHO JUST FAILS AT HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU SAY WE ARE NO LONGER GOING TO DO BUSINESS WITH BAD PLAYERS OUT THERE?

WHERE IS THE LINE?

THERE IS ALSO THE ISSUE, YOU KNOW, OF ECONOMIC DIPLOMACY.

MAYBE WE NEED TO LOOK AT WHAT THAT CAN CAUSE.

I KNOW WE ARE TRYING TO GET PRESIDENT PUTIN'S ATTENTION BUT WHAT SORT OF IMPACT IS THAT HAVING ON THE CITIZENS, INNOCENT CITIZENS IN RUSSIA?

I KNOW THAT STATEMENT MAY BE SOMEWHAT CONTROVERSIAL.

WE ARE TRYING TO GET TO PUTIN THROUGH HIS CITIZENS.

BUT ARE WE CREATING OTHER ISSUES THERE THAT WE HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT.

AGAIN, WE ALL WANT TO DO SOMETHING AND I THINK WE ALL ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING, BUT MAYBE JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT IMPACT SOME OF OUR DECISIONS HAVE ON OTHER PEOPLE, WHAT OTHER ILL EFFECTS WE CAN HAVE ON OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE.

IT IS SOMETHING TO LOOK AT AND THINK ABOUT WHEN MAKING SOME OF THESE DECISIONS.

Gene: JULIE ANN, WE HAVE JUST HEARD FROM THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE FOUNDATION FOR OPEN GOVERNMENT.

IF I HAD TO BET MOST PEOPLE HAD NO IDEA OUR STATE HAD EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS TIED UP IN RUSSIA OR THAT THE STATE INVESTMENT COUNCIL MANAGES ABOUT 36 BILLION OVERALL.

I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS, BUT, SHOULD INFORMATION AND MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THESE INVESTMENTS BE MORE AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC?

Julie Ann: I DON'T THINK IT WOULD HURT.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CATCH ME SAYING WE SHOULD KEEP MORE THINGS SECRET FROM THE PUBLIC.

I DO THINK IT IS A QUESTION OF AWARENESS AND ALSO A QUESTION OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE TIMELINE.

THE SANTA FE REPORTER HAS COVERED DIVESTMENT EFFORTS ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS, PARTICULARLY WITH THE NEW MEXICO EDUCATIONAL RETIREMENT BOARD.

YOU HAD TEACHERS WHO WERE SAYING, WE DON'T WANT OUR RETIREMENT MONEY INVESTED IN PRIVATE PRISONS, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE HAVE ALSO SEEN THE NEW YORK STATE PENSION SYSTEM AND WASHINGTON, D.C. ALSO DIVEST FROM FOSSIL FUEL INVESTMENTS IN THEIR PENSION FUND.

I THINK IT IS A REACTION TO PEOPLE REALLY WANTING TO EXERT CONTROL.

WE HAVE VERY LITTLE CONTROL OVER LOTS OF THINGS.

AND BEING ABLE TO SAY I DON'T WANT MY MONEY TO SUPPORT X, Y AND Z SOMEHOW SEEMS TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL BETTER, BUT I DO AGREE WITH ED THAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT ARE MUCH MORE COMPLEX.

WE HAVE GOT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS A LOT OF CORPORATIONS ACROSS THE GLOBE ARE SAYING, WE ARE NOT GOING TO PROVIDE SERVICES OR SELL PRODUCTS TO RUSSIA.

YOU HAVE A PUSH TO CHANGE ENTERTAINMENT SCHEDULES FOR FINE ARTS PERFORMERS FROM THE COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE -- IN SANTA FE HERE WE HAD A LOCAL BUSINESS THAT PULLED THE RUSSIAN VODKA FROM THE SHELVES, BUT THEN WHEN WE WANTED TO WRITE A STORY ABOUT IT, THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GET TIED UP IN THE POLITICS AND GO ON THE RECORD.

WE HAD A GALLERY ON CANYON ROAD CALLED THE RUSSIAN GALLERY, WHICH IS NOW NO LONGER CALLED THAT.

SO, THIS IDEA OF HOW CANCEL CULTURE AND REAL ECONOMIC SANCTIONS AND REAL GLOBAL SECURITY ISSUES ALL INTERPLAY.

I THINK NONE OF US ARE FOREIGN POLICY EXPERTS WE WOULD LIKE TO BE ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

Gene: AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN OFFICIALLY CALLED FOR BANNING IMPORT OF RUSSIAN OIL.

WE HAVE GOT SOME PRETTY HIGH GAS PRICES GOING ON AND THE PRESIDENT SAYS, PAYING MORE AT THE PUMP, QUOTE, IS THE COST OF FREEDOM.

DEFENDING FREEDOM IS GOING TO COST, IS THE EXACT QUOTE.

SAME DAY GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM JOINED A CALL FROM OTHER DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS CALLING ON CONGRESS TO REPEAL THE FEDERAL GAS TAX TO HELP OUT CONSUMERS.

SMART MOVE FOR WASHINGTON IF THEY CONSIDERED THIS?

Michael: WHAT I WOULD HAVE TO SAY IS THAT IT IS THE FIRST -- IN TERMS OF THE CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT, IT IS THE FIRST TIME I THINK EVERYBODY HAS GOTTEN TOGETHER AND GOTTEN BEHIND SOMETHING IN RECENT HISTORY CONSIDERING THE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE COMING TOGETHER KUMBAYA ON THIS ONE.

ONE CAN ONLY HOPE IT WOULD CARRY OVER TO SOME OF THE LEGISLATION THAT IS ALREADY PENDING WHERE THEY HAVE FAILED TO ACT.

I THINK THAT I MEAN THERE IS A SHORT-TERM PICTURE AND THERE IS A LONGER TERM PICTURE.

CLEARLY, WITH GREATER EXPERTISE IN ECONOMICS AND PEOPLE MAYBE WHO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEIR OWN TRUST FUNDS, I DON'T HAPPEN TO BE A TRUST FUND BABY, SO I HAVE MUCH LESS TO WORRY ABOUT.

BUT IT JUST IS -- THE OTHER THING IS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD IN TERMS OF OUR ACCESS TO GAS AND TRANSPORTATION AND IN TERMS OF PERSONAL VEHICLES, YOU KNOW, MAYBE, I MEAN, THERE ARE CLEARLY A WHOLE HOST OF PEOPLE THAT ARE IMPACTED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT PEOPLE DRIVE.

I MEAN, IF SOMEBODY IS DRIVING THIS HUGE TRUCK AND THEY CAN AFFORD IT AND THE INSURANCE AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT GOES WITH IT, WELL, MAYBE THEY CAN AFFORD THE GAS TO PUT IN IT BECAUSE VEHICLES -- I MEAN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THINGS, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO CREATE A HUGE VEHICLE VERSUS A SMALLER VEHICLE?

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO KEEP THAT MAINTAINED AND VERSUS A SMALLER VEHICLE OR ELECTRIC CARS NOW?

I MEAN, THERE IS SO MANY WAYS YOU CAN LOOK AT THIS PICTURE AND -- BUT I MEAN IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO DRIVE A BIG TRUCK, GREAT, BUT THE DOWNSIDE IS YOU GOT A BIG TRUCK, IT USES A LOT OF GAS.

AND SOME OF THEM NEED THAT FOR WORK, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE DRIVE THESE THINGS JUST BECAUSE THEY LIKE DRIVING SOMETHING THAT IS HUGE.

Gene: THAT IS PART OF IT.

WE ARE UNDER A MINUTE HERE.

I AM CURIOUS HOW THIS SITUATION MIGHT FIT UNDER THE GOVERNOR'S HYDROGEN PLANS.

IS THERE SOMETHING HERE THAT MIGHT EITHER UPSET THOSE PLANS OR BOOST THOSE PLANS ALONG?

Julie Ann: I DON'T KNOW THAT I REALLY HAVE A GREAT ANSWER FOR THAT.

I WANT TO PIGGY BACK WHAT MICHAEL SAID, THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO EXPRESS YOUR DISTASTE FOR HIGH GAS PRICES AND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO MAKE CHOICES ABOUT TRANSPORTATION AND HOW YOU GET FROM POINT A TO B.

AND SO MAYBE BIKE TO WORK FOR UKRAINE WILL BE A SLOGAN THAT CATCHES ON THIS SUMMER.

Michael: HOW ABOUT A HORSE?

Gene: OR A HORSE.

I AM WITH MICHAEL THERE.

THANKS TO ALL THE LINE PANELISTS AS ALWAYS.

Edmund: JUST ONE FINAL THOUGHT.

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY.

SO WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT THIS SITUATION AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE THINGS THAT OUR COMMUNITY AND SOCIETY HAS BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT.

Gene: THANK YOU FOR GETTING THAT IN.

THAT IS GOOD WORDS THERE.

BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANY OF THE TOPICS OUR FOLKS COVERED ON OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES.

WATCHING THE INTERVIEW GWYNETH DOLAND OFFERED TONIGHT WITH MAYOR CHAVEZ, I WAS LEFT RUBBING MY HANDS TOGETHER AT THE IDEA WE HAVE NEARLY FOUR BILLION DOLLARS AT OUR DISPOSAL TO STITCH UP OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

3.7 BILLION FOR OUR ROADS, BRIDGES, WATER PIPES, SEWER SYSTEMS, RAIN WATER MANAGEMENT, NEVER MIND INTERNET CONNECTIVITY.

THERE IS A LOT THAT IS COVERED UNDER THE IDEA OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND MAYOR CHAVEZ IS RIGHT ON THE TIMES TO ASK FOR PUBLIC INPUT FIRST.

BUT, THAT IS WHERE IT GETS POTENTIALLY MESSY.

NAMELY, SOME LONG HELD HABITS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE AS WELL.

IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO NOTE DURING THIS PROCESS, WHO EXACTLY GETS THEIR PUBLIC VOICE OUT THERE.

WILL IT BE TRULY REGULAR NEW MEXICANS OR WILL IT YET AGAIN BE OUR REGULAR ARMY OF PROFESSIONAL CITIZENS, THE ONES LUCKY ENOUGH TO PARTICIPATE IN WEEKDAY SESSIONS, MUCH LIKE OUR LEGISLATURE.

NOW ONE OF OUR HABITS IS ONLY REACHING DOWN BUT SO DEEP FOR PUBLIC INPUT AND WE HAVE A CHANCE TO DO BETTER HERE.

WE HAVE BECOME USED TO SEEING LESS THAN A HALF DOZEN PEOPLE SPEAK IN COMMITTEE HEARINGS AND THINKING, WE HAVE TAKEN SOME KIND OF DEEP DIVE, BUT THIS IS INFRASTRUCTURE.

NOT SOME VAGUE POLICY POINT.

NOW, MAYOR CHAVEZ HAS A REAL OPPORTUNITY HERE IF HE AND WE GET THIS RIGHT, AND WE SPEND THIS MONEY EFFICIENTLY WITHOUT OVER POLITICS AND FAVORITISM, IT JUST MIGHT BE SOMETHING WE CAN BE PROUD OF.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, IN FOCUS.