THE DRAMA SURROUNDING NEW YORK'S CONGRESSIONAL MAPS IS NOWHERE NEAR ITS END.

THIS WEEK, THE STATE'S COURT OF APPEALS RULED THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT LINES NEED TO REDRAWN.

THESE WERE THE MAPS DRAWN BY A SPECIAL MASTER - AND USED IN LAST YEAR'S ELECTION CYCLE - AFTER THE MAPS SUBMITTED BY DEMOCRATS WERE THROWN OUT BECAUSE OF GERRYMANDERING.

BUT, NOW THE COURT HAS KICKED THE RESPONSIBILITY OF DRAWING THE MAPS, ONCE AGAIN, TO THE BIPARTISAN INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION.

THE BODY WILL HAVE UNTIL FEBRUARY TO SUBMIT MAPS TO THE LEGISLATURE.

THE RULING WAS A BIG WIN FOR DEMOCRATS AND COMES AT A TIME WHEN THE PARTY IS VYING TO REGAIN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES - AND AFTER REPUBLICAN WINS IN 2022 ULTIMATELY PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN THE PARTY GAINING CONTROL OF THE CHAMBER.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL AND STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES ISSUED A BRIEF CALLING FOR THE MAPS USED IN LAST YEAR'S ELECTIONS TO BE THROWN OUT - AND WERE AMONG DEMOCRATS CELEBRATING THE COURT OF APPEALS RULING.

MEANWHILE, NEW YORK REPUBLICANS DECRIED THE RULING AS CORRUPT.

FOR MORE ON THE RULING AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR ELECTIONS NEXT YEAR, WE'RE JOINED BY VAUGHN GOLDEN OF THE NEW YORK POST AND ZACH WILLIAMS OF BLOOMBERG LAW.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

THANKS FOR HAVING US.

THANK YOU.

NOW, I WANTED TO TOUCH ON THIS RULING, OF COURSE, BUT FIRST I WANTED TO ASK DID IT COME AS A SURPRISE, OR WAS IT SOMETHING THAT, IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION TO NEW YORK STATE POLITICS, YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING FROM A MILE AWAY?

I THINK THE RULING WAS EXPECTED IN FAVOR OF THE DEMOCRATS JUST BECAUSE THE BALANCE OF POWER ON THE COURT OF APPEALS IN THE STATE'S HIGHEST COURT HAS CHANGED OVER THE PAST YEAR.

YOU MIGHT RECALL THE BATTLE OVER HECTOR LaSALLE, GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL'S UNSUCCESSFUL NOMINATION TO LEAD THE COURT.

HE WAS KNOWN AS A MUCH MORE MODERATE JURIST, AND PEOPLE WERE WONDERING HOW HE MIGHT RULE ON A CASE LIKE THIS.

WHEREAS ROWAN WILSON, WHO IS NOW THE CHIEF JUDGE, WAS ACTUALLY ALREADY ON THE COURT AND HAD RULED IN DEMOCRATS' FAVOR LAST TIME AROUND, AND THIS TIME AROUND, HE DID AS WELL.

ESPECIALLY WITH CAITLIN HALLIGAN TOO, HOCHUL'S PICK TO FILL ROWAN WILSON'S VACATED ASSOCIATE JUDGE SEAT, SHE RECUSED HERSELF.

SO ROWAN WILSON, KIND OF SHOCKINGLY, PICKED ANOTHER JUDGE TO FILL THAT ROLE, WHEREAS PREVIOUSLY THAT WOULDN'T BE FILLED UNLESS THERE WAS NOT A QUORUM ON THE COURT.

SO THERE WERE SOME TEA LEAVES GOING IN FOR SURE.

YEAH, DEFINITELY.

YOU BROUGHT UP HECTOR LaSALLE, RIGHT?

WHO COULD FORGET ABOUT THAT?

HOCHUL, OF COURSE, SHE HAD A VERY INTERESTING YEAR LAST YEAR, FILLED WITH A LOT OF HIGH HIGHS AND LOW LOWS, HECTOR LaSALLE BEING ONE OF THEM.

IS THIS A WIN FOR THE GOVERNOR HEADING INTO THE NEW YEAR?

IT'S EASY TO FORGET, BECAUSE IT SEEMS SO LONG AGO, THAT THE GOVERNOR, IN HER FIRST INTERVIEW AS GOVERNOR IN 2021, EXPRESSED SUPPORT FOR THE IDEA OF GERRYMANDERING TO HELP DEMOCRATS GAIN CONTROL OF THE U.S. HOUSE.

SO SINCE THEN, DEMOCRATS IN NEW YORK HAVE LOST SEVERAL SEATS, NOT LEAST BECAUSE SHE KIND OF UNDERPERFORMED IN THE GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN IN 2022.

SO NOW THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE A CHANCE TO KIND OF MAKE UP FOR THOSE MISTAKES IN THE PAST, I WOULD PUT THIS AS A WIN IN THE GOVERNOR'S COLUMN.

WOULD YOU AGREE?

I THINK IT CERTAINLY CAN'T HURT DEMOCRATS' PROSPECTS TO HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER REDRAWING THE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS AGAIN.

AND OF COURSE REPUBLICANS HAVE COME OUT AND DENOUNCED THIS.

THEY ARE SAYING IT'S CORRUPT POLITICS.

DO THEY HAVE A CASE OR A CHANCE OF CHALLENGING THIS IN COURT?

CERTAINLY.

THE PROCESS MOVING FORWARD, THIS WILL GO BACK TO THE IRC.

THEY GET A CHANCE TO SEND IT TO THE LEGISLATURE.

IF ULTIMATELY THE LEGISLATURE DENIES TWO SETS OF MAPS THIS TIME, THEN IT COULD GIVE LICENSE FOR THE LEGISLATURE TO DRAW THE MAPS.

AND REGARDLESS, THE REPUBLICANS CAN CHALLENGE IT IN COURT EVEN IF THE CONSTITUTION IS FOLLOWED TO A TEE, THEY CAN CHALLENGE IT ON THE ACTUAL SUBSTANTIVE GROUNDS OF THE MAPS THEMSELVES.

AND THAT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THE COURTS HANDLE THAT.

IT'S ALMOST GUARANTEED, WHATEVER MAPS COME OUT, THAT THEY WILL BE CHALLENGED BY REPUBLICANS IN COURT AND THE COURTS WILL HAVE TO HOLD THEM UP.

SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE REALLY IMPORTANT TO THAT IS HOW DEMOCRATS HANDLE THE IDEA OF COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST.

UNDER THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF THE 1960s, PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE KIND OF COMBINED INTO CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS WITH PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, BASED ON EITHER RACIAL GROUPS, MAYBE ECONOMIC GROUPS, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER IT IS, COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST.

SO TAKE BRANDON WILLIAMS' DISTRICT IN CENTRAL NEW YORK, HE WON IT VERY NARROWLY, AND THE IDEA HAS POPPED UP TO MAYBE ATTACH -- SYRACUSE IS A BIG PART OF THAT DISTRICT.

DEMOCRATIC HELD CITY, LOTS OF RURAL AREAS, SUBURBAN AREAS FROM THERE WHERE REPUBLICANS HAVE BETTER CHANCES.

BUT IF YOU ADD ITHACA IN THE SOUTHERN TIER OF THAT, COLLEGE TOWN, VERY DEMOCRATIC, MAYBE COURT LAND AS WELL, YOU'RE TAKING A RACE WHERE REPUBLICANS WON IN 2022 BY A FEW THOUSAND AND ADDING A BUNCH OF YOUNG VOTERS, LIBERAL VOTERS.

NOW, YOU COULD ARGUE THAT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, BIG CITY, BIG UNIVERSITY IN A CITY, YOUNG PEOPLE, IS A COMMUNITY OF INTEREST WITH ITHACA, ALSO A LIBERAL CITY.

SO IF THEY CAN KIND OF CHANGE THINGS AROUND THE MARGINS IN WAYS THAT MAKE AT LEAST LOGICAL SENSE IN A COURTROOM, THEN I THINK THESE MAPS COULD BE UPHELD.

THAT SAID, IF THEY DO THINGS WHERE THEY JUST KIND OF MAKE LONG TRAILS OF LAND TRYING TO CONNECT THINGS IN STRANGE WAYS THAT DON'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, THE REPUBLICANS HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO CHALLENGE.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF PROVISIONS IN THE 2014 AMENDMENTS TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION, COMMUNITIES OF INTEREST BEING ONE OF THEM, AND THAT REALLY HELPS THE ABILITY TO KIND OF JUSTIFY WHAT MAY LOOK LIKE A GERRYMANDERED MAP, BUT THAT CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS ALSO ALLOTS FOR RACIAL DISPARITIES FOR FAVORING AND NOT FAVORING INCUMBENTS, FAVORING ONE POLITICAL PARTY OVER THE OTHER.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF PROVISIONS TO THE CONSTITUTION THERE, SO YOU CAN KIND OF JUSTIFY IT ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT LINES.

YEAH, AND THE IRC HAS UNTIL FEBRUARY TO PRODUCE A NEW MAP TO THE LEGISLATURE, AND THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR THAT IT COULD POTENTIALLY IMPACT PRIMARY ELECTIONS THIS YEAR -- OR NEXT YEAR.

DO YOU SEE THAT AS A FEAR, AND HOW WOULD DEMOCRATS KIND OF NOT WORK TO DO THAT?

I SEE DEMOCRATS, AT LEAST IN SOME KEY RACES, STARTING TO SETTLE ON SOME CANDIDATES AHEAD OF TIME.

SO I THINK -- YOU KNOW, MONDAIRE JONES, THE FORMER CONGRESSMAN WHO'S ANGLING TO CHALLENGE MIKE LAWLER, THE REPUBLICAN INCUMBENT, IT SEEMS LIKE HE'S GOT AN OPEN PATH TO BE THE NOMINEE NO MATTER HOW THE DISTRICT MIGHT CHANGE AROUND THE EDGES.

THAT SAID, JUST LIKE WE'VE SEEN BEFORE, SUDDEN CHANGES CAN UP-END EVERYTHING, AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN LIKE PEOPLE THAT WERE KIND OF SHOVED TO THE SIDE BY THE PREVIOUS REDISTRICTING RUN -- CAROLYN MALONEY IN MANHATTAN, WHO LOST A RACE TO JERROLD NADLER, COULD RE-ENTER POLITICS IF SOMEHOW THE IRC PICKS DISTRICTS -- AND THE LEGISLATURE APPROVES THEM -- THAT KIND OF JUST SHAKE THINGS UP IN WAYS THAT WE DON'T SEE RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT.

AND THAT HASN'T REALLY NECESSARILY STOPPED FOLKS FROM RUNNING IN DISTRICTS THEY DON'T LIVE IN.

THERE ARE A FEW MEMBERS OUT THERE WHO HAD TO MOVE.

BRIAN HIGGINS WAS ONE OF THEM.

THE DISTRICT WAS DRAWN JUST OVER THE LINE FROM HIS HOUSE.

AND A NUMBER OF MEMBERS.

SO -- MONDAIRE JONES RAN IN NEW YORK CITY LAST TIME.

EXACTLY, YEAH.

AND THIS IS REMINDING ME, OF COURSE, OF SEAN PATRICK MALONEY.

WE'RE BRINGING UP ALL THESE NAMES.

ARE YOU HEARING ANYTHING FROM THEIR CAMPAIGNS OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED CLOSELY WITH THEM TO INDICATE THEY MIGHT BE CONSIDERING MAKING A POLITICAL COMEBACK?

WE DID HEAR MALONEY, I THINK IT WAS SPECTRUM NEW YORK ONE, I FORGET THE REPORTER'S NAME, WHO DID REPORT THAT MALONEY SAID, IF THE DISTRICT IS DRAWN IN A WAY THAT SHE COULD RUN, SHE WOULD RUN.

BUT I THINK FOR THE MOST PART EVERYONE IS JUST CIRCLING THE WAGONS WAITING FOR THE MAPS TO COME OUT, AND WE'LL JUST DEAL WITH IT AS THEY DO.

THIS IS POLITICS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THOUGH.

THESE PEOPLE WIN POPULARITY CONTESTS FOR A LIVING.

I THINK A LOT OF THEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE LOST THEIR LAST RACE AND DIDN'T LEAVE CONGRESS ON THEIR OWN TERMS, YOU KNOW, WE DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE A LOT.

THEY WANT TO BE IN THE ACTION.

THEY FEEL THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO ADD.

WHEN POLITICAL OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS, I THINK A BUNCH OF THEM ARE GOING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.

IT DEPENDS ON THE DISTRICT TOO.

IF THEY'RE DRAWN INTO A DISTRICT THAT'S A LOT MORE COMPETITIVE, MAYBE THEY DON'T WANT A REALLY TOUGH RACE.

SO IT COULD DEPEND ON WHAT KIND OF DISTRICT THEY END UP WITH TOO.

AND WE'RE ABOUT A YEAR FROM ELECTIONS NEXT YEAR.

SO ARE NEW YORK VOTERS REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS?

IS THIS TOP OF MIND AS THEY'RE HEADING TO THE POLLS?

REALLY CAN'T NOT BE, TO KNOW WHAT DISTRICT YOU'RE VOTING IN.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CONJECTURE ABOUT THE CONFUSION THAT THIS INSTILLS OVER EVERYTHING.

I REMEMBER BEING OUT IN ITHACA LAST YEAR WHERE WE HAD SIMULTANEOUSLY A PRIMARY AND A SPECIAL ELECTION FOR TWO DIFFERENT CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS -- I BELIEVE THAT WAS LAST AUGUST.

I CAN'T EVEN KEEP THEM STRAIGHT AT THIS POINT.

SO, ABSOLUTELY, I THINK IT HAS TO BE ON THE MINDS OF VOTERS.

AND IF THIS DOESN'T GO WELL FOR DEMOCRATS, DO YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD HINDER VOTERS COMING OUT TO VOTE IN SUPPORT OF THE PARTY?

I DON'T THINK WE SAW DEPRESSED VOTER TURNOUT IN LAST YEAR'S ELECTIONS.

MORE THAN -- SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT IS IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR, GOT JOE BIDEN ON THE BALLOT, DONALD TRUMP, THE ULTIMATE DEMOCRATIC TURNOUT MACHINE, HE'S LIKELY TO BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE.

I THINK WHAT PEOPLE DO HERE AT THIS POINT IS JUST KIND OF DISORGANIZATION, CHAOS, THAT NEVER HELPS THE PARTY IN POWER, NOT LEAST THE GOVERNOR, WHO MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO INFLUENCE EVERYTHING, BUT SHE'S THE ONE AT THE TOP.

THAT SAID, I THINK VOTERS ARE GOING TO ENGAGE A LOT MORE WHEN WE GET CLOSER, WHEN A LOT MORE CANDIDATES HAVE DECIDED WHETHER THEY'RE GOING TO RUN OR NOT RUN WHEN WE SEE MORE ADS, AND JUST GENERALLY WHEN THE POLITICAL CONVERSATION PICKS UP AFTER THE HOLIDAYS.

BUT I THINK DEMOCRATS ESPECIALLY ARE BANKING ON HUGE TURNOUT IN THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE.

THEY GOT ABORTION ON THE BALLOT NO LESS, AS WELL CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS.

SO THEY'RE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO JUST KIND OF PUMP VOTER INTEREST INTO THIS RACE.

AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

AFTER SUCH A DISAPPOINTING 2022 CYCLE.

BUT ALSO NONCOMPETITIVE DISTRICTS DON'T EXACTLY ENCOURAGE THOSE POLITICIANS TO BE RUNNING ADS, TO BE DOING GROUND GAME, TO BE KNOCKING ON DOORS.

SO HAVING COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS AND KIND OF ALL OF THE -- EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS WITH THAT HELPS TOO.

AND YOU MENTIONED COMPETITIVE DISTRICTS, AND YOU ALSO MENTIONED SYRACUSE.

SO ARE THERE ANY OTHER POCKETS OF THE STATE THAT DEMOCRATS COULD BE LOOKING INTO TO REDISTRICT TO THEIR BENEFIT?

STATEN ISLAND WOULD BE ON THAT LIST.

WHAT ABOUT LONG ISLAND?

IS THERE ANY CHANCE IN ANY WORLD THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO PULL SOMETHING OFF IN LONG ISLAND?

I MEAN, LOOKING AT LAST YEAR AND NASSAU COUNTY GOING RED, THERE'S A LOT OF RED ON LONG ISLAND THESE DAYS.

THAT SAID, I BELIEVE REPUBLICANS PICKED UP, WHAT, SIX SEATS?

FIVE OF THEM WERE CLOSE RACES.

LONG ISLAND, I BELIEVE, ONE OF THE RACES FAR ON THE EAST END IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE TOUGH FOR DEMOCRATS.

BUT A LOT CAN -- LONG ISLAND, HOWEVER RED IT HAS APPEARED TO BECOME IN RECENT CYCLES, THAT WAS AT COUNTY LEVELS.

CONGRESSIONAL RACES CAN BE -- YOU CAN ADD A BIT OF QUEENS, PUTTING IN DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

YOU CAN KIND OF MOVE AROUND THE SOUTH SHORE, WHERE A LOT OF REPUBLICAN STRONGHOLDS ARE.

PUT IN PLACES LIKE MAYBE HEMPSTEAD -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT OPTIONS WHERE THEY CAN AT LEAST MAYBE MAKE ONE OF THOSE DISTRICTS COMPETITIVE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE BEST GUESS IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS CANNOT TRANSFORM ALL THE RACES INTO EASY DEMOCRATIC WINS.

EXACTLY.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PICK AND CHOOSE.

BRANDON WILLIAMS, I MENTIONED CENTRAL NEW YORK, THAT'S ONE RACE WHERE I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING REALLY HARD.

MARC MOLINARO IN NEW YORK 19 COULD BE SOMEONE WHO COULD BENEFIT FROM THAT BECAUSE, WHEN YOU TAKE REPUBLICAN VOTERS OUT OF ONE PLACE, YOU'VE GOT TO PUT THEM SOMEWHERE ELSE.

AND MIKE LAWLER IS OBVIOUSLY SOMEONE THEY'RE TARGETING REALLY HARD.

WELL, THERE'S A LOT HERE.

WE'LL HAVE TO CONTINUE TO CHECK IN AND HOPEFULLY HAVE YOU BACK ON THE SHOW TO DISCUSS MORE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

OF COURSE.

AND WE WERE SPEAKING WITH VAUGHN GOLDEN OF THE NEW YORK POST AND ZACH WILLIAMS OF BLOOMBERG LAW.