From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

First, a note that this hour of the program will explore ideas related to mental health and suicide.

Our connection this hour is made in a young boy's response to his mother's suicide attempt.

He decides he's going to make a list of all the things that make life worth living.

Starts with ice cream.

Sure.

Water fights with friends.

Things with stripes.

He's going to list everything that provides joy or wonder.

And he's going to hope that sharing this list with his mother might change her, might change her outlook, might change her mind.

This is the root of the play every brilliant thing.

It debuted about ten years ago at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

By the way, that's the OG fringe for those who know.

And since then, every brilliant thing has been produced in 63 countries.

Now it's coming to Rochester.

The critics have been effusive in their praise for the play.

The Guardian calls every brilliant thing a global phenomenon that is somehow also an uplifting play about depression.

The Guardian writes, quote, the magic lies in the way the audience is invited to participate.

They are assigned lines and even roles in the story.

Almost everyone contributes and a community is created.

End quote.

Here's how the coauthor of the play describes it.

Quote.

We ask a group of people to involve themselves in a show about how to deal with the hardest things we ever deal with depression and loss and grief.

And these are all things you can't do alone.

End quote.

Despite more public discussion about mental health than ever, our collective mental health is I mean, I'm a lay person.

I'm going to I'm going to say, not very good.

Depression hit a record high at the end of 2023.

Gallup reports that the percentage of U.S. adults who report having been diagnosed with depression at some point in their lifetime reached 29% at the end of 2023.

That's ten percentage points higher than a decade previously.

So maybe this play is coming at just the right time.

It opens at Blackfriars Theater next Thursday, the 20th, and my guest this hour includes some of the team behind the production of Every Brilliant Thing.

Patti Lewis Brown is the director.

Welcome to the program.

Thanks for being here, Patti.

Thank you.

Evan.

Daniel.

Magic is an actor in every brilliant thing.

Welcome.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to Hayley Amarin, who's director of youth and community engagement at Nami Rochester.

Welcome back to the program.

Thanks, Ivan.

Tell people what Nami is.

Nami is the nation's largest grassroots mental health organization dedicated to essentially supporting those touched by mental illness, which, as we know, it's not really many people that aren't untouched by that.

We offer support, education, advocacy, mental health awareness all at no cost to our participants.

Thanks for being back with us.

And let me welcome as well Tony Pisani.

Doctor Pisani is a psychologist, a family therapist, suicide prevention researcher, professor of psychiatry and pediatrics at the University of Rochester Center for the Study and Prevention of Suicide, and the founder of Safe Side Prevention.

Welcome back to the program, Tony.

Good to see you again.

So let me start with Patti as the director of this play here.

This is a conversation.

Yeah, it's about a play.

But this is a conversation about how we talk about and deal with mental health.

And that in itself is a pretty heavy thing.

But the play also has a lot of lightness and beauty and wonder.

It's a svelte little script.

you know, I didn't take me long to read, but I'm sure the production involves the audience.

So you're trying to do a lot here.

Why is this the right play for this?

For the stage right now?

You think?

Well, I think it addresses you the kinds of things that people are experiencing in their own lives, even beyond suicide.

I think it has to do with mental health in a in a broader sense.

And what I really love about the play and, and we've been waiting five years to do this.

We were supposed to do it in 2020, and we all know what happened in 2020.

So five years later, it is perhaps even more important, I think, to hear what's in this play.

And the part that I love so much is having the audience really participate.

I firmly believe that art heals, and this process of inviting them in and having them be a part of it, not just observers, not just, you know, even vocal appreciation, laughter and tears and whatever.

It changes the whole texture of the experience by having the audience come up and interact with Daniel, or just sit there and say, say a line.

There are a lot of the the brilliant list is very much a part of, of the play, and each person as they come in will be given a piece of paper.

And on that piece of paper is a number and something that is truly brilliant that they will get to share during the course of the show.

Let me also say, if you listeners are someone who does not want to participate in the show, wants to go watch a show, they're not going to force you to read lines or participate.

Absolutely not.

We totally respect.

the audience is a personal boundaries, and we will make sure that, no one feels forced to do anything or feels unwelcome in any way.

No, I mean, yeah, it's literally right there in the the show notes in the script recommendations for how different productions around the world have grappled with making sure that the audience feels comfortable.

So you can go see this if you want, at Blackfriars and not feel like you have to participate.

But there is something lovely about sharing that experience.

It's a really sort of sparse setup and and then, yeah, I mean, there is a script, of course, and Daniel works with, I'm sure, people to feel comfortable, but, how do you how do you feel about working in this way?

Have you worked this directly with audiences before as an ever?

No.

First time.

It's terrifying, but it's exciting.

It's very exciting.

the advantage that I get in this show, which a lot of actors don't get before, you know, going on to a stage and having bright lights come up, is that I will be meeting everyone as they come in.

So they will have a personal connection with me.

And if they feel uncomfortable taking a slip of paper with a number and a couple of words on it, that will be absolutely fine.

but we want people to be able to experience the joy of hearing their number, like you're listening at a bingo game and just shouting, shouting out your your your, you know, your statement and your, your, your brilliant thing that's on that piece of paper.

And I don't think it's giving too much away to just as a way of demonstrating how this play deals with some pretty heavy themes, how kids develop a sense of loss and reality, and also how the audience interacts.

I mean, very early on we learn that, the main character lost the dog.

I don't know what version of the dog name you're going, are you going with Sherlock Bones?

Which I might be allowed to say.

Am I giving too much away?

He's like, you're revealing it all.

No, we're not revealing at all.

This isn't like a big.

Is this a big spoiler?

The name of the dog.

It's a it's a very funny bit when it comes out.

So now I'm no longer into everything.

Now there's lots of different dog.

There could be.

Anyway, what I think is, is in reading the script.

I haven't seen it in reading the script.

What I find really touching is that almost everybody listening can think about the first sense of loss that you had as a kid.

It might have been a human loss.

It might have been a pet.

but how that hit you, I mean, I was in fifth grade when my mother said, do you want to come?

Because we have to put Katie down our collie.

And I was like, I can't, I cannot be there.

I and I to this day, I regret that.

I remember going up to my room and sitting on, sitting at the edge of my bed and just crying, trying to understand that she's not coming back.

Or as the script says, she goes from being a living thing to an object to an object, you know, which is an amazing way of describing it.

What a beautiful way of describing it.

So, yeah, go ahead, Tom, I would just suggest that maybe you don't have to regret it.

because I think kids will move towards what they're ready to do.

And now, of course, as an adult, you're ready to be there when the collie died.

But but at the time, you weren't.

And I think that's particularly important when we're talking about even a show like this that, when you want to bring up things like mental health and suicide with kids, when they'll tell you what they're ready for.

And if you get the sense of, of discomfort, it might be that they're they're just not ready.

And that's where questions can be so helpful.

about it, you know, what are you wondering about?

Nothing.

Okay.

you know, maybe we explore it further, but I think that's the one of the big themes, I think, here in this show is that, getting past grief is not something that you do once, the your relationship with a, with a, whether it's a the colleague or some.

But the relationships like so important like a mother.

grief is really about changing your relationship.

You don't move on.

You never every every person listening.

We talk about it that like that, like, well, you got to move on.

You don't move on, right?

I mean, every person who's listening, who's lost someone knows that you don't do, like doing a task like unloading the dishwasher.

You're just changing your relationship with that person as you change as a person.

Wow.

It's a different way of thinking about grief than most of us have, though.

Doctor Pisani I wish I you would have been there in fifth grade when, when when we lost Katie.

But I appreciate that.

And the show's not about me here, but I think we are part of the reason that story comes up is everybody can relate to these things, correct?

Literally everybody.

Which is probably why, you're going to find that there will be plenty in the audience who want to participate.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that it's just it will be such a camaraderie.

It's going to almost be like a group therapy session in some ways.

I think that the way that many of us deal with grief or getting through a difficult time is through laughter, sometimes through really irreverent laughter.

just to lighten our souls and our minds.

And there's plenty of that in this without, making fun of.

Right.

So there is lightness and there's just, I don't know, I just think that people will really be able to look at this character on stage and say, man, I wish I could have been that person at that time, or oh boy, that really it's that's tough being who he is right now as a child.

there's a lot I just think thematically there's a lot in here for people to unpack.

And I go on that roller coaster for everybody and I, you know, thrown out pieces of paper and hoping that you come along for the ride.

You know, and you said even that it's not about you, but in a way, it is, we we call this show, you know, it's a one person show.

I mean, that's how it's sort of built, but I've been coming to the realization, over the course of our rehearsal that it's really a 100 person show if we're sold out.

Yeah.

Which, you know, probably you probably will be considering how popular the show has been in dozens of countries now.

So when does it start and let people know if they want to attend a week from today, May 20th March?

Oh my goodness.

If you show up in May, you will have this.

We've been rehearsing.

It's one of the it's one of the bands that begin with, yeah.

it's March, it's next week.

March next year, next week.

How long is it run through?

The 30th of March.

Okay.

So, how many total performances?

Patty?

There are eight, eight performances.

So it's going to be it's going to come and go in eight performances.

And this has been a show that has been really kind of this.

It was this surprise 2014 Edinburgh Fringe hit and then it starts to travel.

When were you first aware of it?

Patty?

in about 2019.

That's when you wanted to bring we read it at Blackfriars.

immediately everyone on the reading committee was like, oh my God, we have to do this play.

This is an astonishing piece of work.

And it was to be included in the season, the Covid season that we lost, that dropped out because of restrictions.

And then just with programing concerns and it just has taken till now to bring it back.

So was this one of those scripts that starts to gain that kind of buzz in the theater world?

Like, have you heard about this?

Have you seen it?

It's going everywhere.

Yeah.

One of those things.

Yeah.

When I read it in 2019, I did not know it.

But then I, I would hear people say, oh, I saw this play and you would really like it and you should do it or you know, so yes, it does gain buzz and unlike anything, as Daniel said, that most people involved with it, it's a small group who's involved with it have ever done before.

But it's also that theme, you know, you don't expect to say, hey, Lee hammering, here's this play that has suicide at the center of it.

And like, people like, we got to do this.

I mean, what does that tell you about the way we are engaging with the subject of suicide?

You know, I think it I hate to say in a way that it excites me, but in a way it really does, because now we're seeing this shift where we're beginning to reimagine how we're defining a lot of the terms we're using.

You know, it's so easy in social media for mental health, suicide, depression, all of these words, we hear it so much that it's important for us to just stop and think about, okay, well, what does this really mean?

Who does this really impact?

And so, you know, in a way, for me, it it almost tells me, okay, we're starting to head in the direction that's going to help heal.

And that's ultimately, I think when we have these open conversations, when we talk about stigma and letting the air out of the tire, so to speak, that's why plays like this are just so critical and so important.

Well, I told Hailey before the program began that probably like a lot of listeners, there have been moments in my life where I've been sort of, confused or paralyzed by the fear of saying the wrong thing or dealing with concerns about mental health or depression or suicide.

The wrong way.

And, well, let me ask both of you and Tony a little bit about this.

So when when I feel that paralysis, often what I do is I thought, well, I'm not going to I'm not going to say anything at all here.

Because if I say the wrong thing, then that could have a very scary effect here.

So I don't engage.

And then all of a sudden I'm withdrawn from a person who may need some engagement.

So in the past I would think it was the right thing to do, or it was well intended, but I don't think it was the right thing to do.

And how should we think about the way we talk about this, how we talk to people and the fear that we may have and saying, I'm not doing this the right way?

Yeah.

That's so real.

You know, we never really want to intentionally, intentionally or unintentionally hurt other people.

One of the biggest parts of that, I think, is to be able to recognize that we're not going to be perfect in this and ideally, our community should be accepting and understanding of that.

And so if we have a working framework that, okay, there's a lot of stuff emerging, there's a lot of new things coming in that we're consistently learning that's coming in.

Maybe there's a phrase that said that's that's can be more harmful.

But at the end of the day, if we're with people who can be receptive to that and instead of posing judgment, more so posing curiosity and allowing for a teaching moment, I think that's the biggest part of that component that you just said, because at the end of the day, we're not we're not machines.

And when we talk about mental health and mental illness, there's a lot of pressure internally and externally.

So I think to let some of that pressure out, that's one of the first steps.

Tony, you want to add to that?

Yeah.

I really appreciate what you said.

There's a principle that we teach therapists that work for any of us, I think, which is the principle of when in doubt, tell the truth.

And what we mean by that is if you're feeling anxious and bringing something up, if you're feeling uncomfortable or you maybe don't know the words say that, it actually tell somebody.

I don't know if they talked about.

Yeah, I don't really know how to talk.

I want to ask you about something, but I feel really awkward, and I don't want to make anything worse.

that can.

And one of the things that one of the ways that that functions as it actually reduces our own anxiety in having that conversation and anxiety is very contagious.

So then the other person is now picking up, okay, first of all, this person is being honest with me about their feelings.

They're now relaxed into it.

I said, okay, I said it.

and now there's there's likely to be more openness and and rapport.

Well, now let's pull it back to the eyes of a child, because that's where the play starts.

And let me go around the table.

I'm going to start with Tony, and I want to talk about this.

And this is something that this panel was talking about before the program even began, this duality, this the usefulness of creating a list of all the things that delight you, which I love that idea.

I just love it.

I also know that it would be easy for a child to think that if we could just make this list long enough and give it to my mom, she won't be sad anymore.

She'll see all the great things in this world.

And for a child who's recently had a mother attempt suicide, trying to understand that, it's natural, maybe for children to think, well, look at all these good things.

So let me start with you, Tony.

I love the premise of the show because it's so human.

How should we contextualize that for kids?

And this idea of think of happy things and you will be happy all the time.

Yeah.

Well, it seems to me that this the main the main character in this play, is not the mother who's having suicide attempts.

It's the son who is taking, things into his own hands to try to cope with something that's happened.

So whether I don't think just telling somebody who is having suicidal thoughts, think of good things, that can kind of miss the mark.

but I think for the child, in this case, doing something, active to try to cope with a difficult situation is a good thing.

So it's sort of like, who is that helping?

It likely is helping the the boy in that circumstance, and then later helps the man as he changes his relationship with his mother as he gets older.

So, you know, no.

What most, most of the time we, it's important if you are ever hearing from somebody who has suicide concerns, it's probably really important to understand more.

What are their reasons for wanting to die before you jump in to.

Well, but there's all these things to live for because you can't argue somebody out of suicide concerns.

but at the same time, however a child is going to deal with it, it's probably more helpful to take to try to take matters into into his own hands and do something, take that control and agency when something feels totally out of control.

So at minimum, that kind of action for a child might help the child, at least if not the parent who has attempted suicide.

also, I'm thinking, you know, I, you know, we kind of don't exactly know if the moms, you know, reading the list and you know, what they doing.

But different human beings may react differently to a child being vocal about things that might open the door to conversation.

Possibly.

Yeah.

Is that too optimistic?

every person who I've met who has, suicide concerns and has children feel very bad about that.

If their children know that they've had a suicide attempt, there's always a lot of guilt and things like that.

And they really love their children.

And, and a child coming up with those things, it might make them feel bad, but they also would find it very sweet and endearing.

And and what?

And I also know I've heard from, from numerous mothers who say, I just don't want my kids to go through what I'm going through.

And so I could see a mother really being happy that their child is focusing on positive things when she feels so bad about what's going on.

And let me just extend, one point that Tony is making and ask you again, we're talking about art and how art presents suicide.

So here's another popular piece of art that presented Ted Lasso.

And if you haven't watched it, this is not a spoiler because it's been out long enough.

So, you know, if Ted, I do.

I'm a huge fan of Ted Lasso.

We find out that Ted's relationship with his father, which is alluded to, and he speaks about times in the first couple of seasons.

Eventually find out that it's much more complicated because his dad didn't just die.

When Ted was 16, his dad died by suicide, and Ted blames his dad for, quote, quitting on the family and, what you said, Tony, is that, you know, there are parents who have attempted suicide or considered suicide who feel guilty for it because they do love their kids.

And we have to grapple with this idea that someone who is really struggling in that profound way doesn't not love their their children or they're the people in their lives, but it it is really hard for people to understand.

Yeah.

It's, the fact that you think, well, if you if you loved us, then why did you do that?

Right.

It's a very understandable reaction, to, to feel that way and from hearing from people.

our, our center has conducted studies of, of, going into a certain area and studying in depth each, suicide that occurred in that area, understanding about the person who's, if there's any notes left looking at those, and, I and I've read many of those files.

And one of the things that stands out is that to a person, people often say, I'm so sorry that I'm doing this.

There's just no other way at that moment.

What suicide does to you is it creates blinders where you just can't see other options.

and, that's something that depression does.

And the, the psychological term is cognitive constriction, but it just means tunnel vision.

You get tunnel vision, and, you love these people.

You don't want to do this.

And but you are convinced that it will actually help them.

and, and you just can't see that of their way out.

So we want to, you know, affirm to people who are thinking about it this this does affect family members, and that's sometimes does keep people alive.

but if a person in that, you know, has taken their life, it was because they couldn't see a different way.

And, and that's part of the kind of coming to terms with and, and not moving on, but renegotiating our relationship with that person as we grow and change.

Haley, emerging director of youth and community engagement at Nami Rochester.

So when we think about creating this list to say to somebody, I know you're hurting, but you got a vacation plan and you've got your favorite music and you've got ice cream, you know, there's a beauty to the simplicity of that, and it's very childlike.

What would you say about that?

You know, it's hard because when you have a loved one, someone you really care about, you want to be able to express those things to them.

And I think at the same time, it's it's it's not so black and white and it's so important for whoever it is that's really struggling to be able to have it acknowledged.

You know, I know you're struggling right now like I'm here for you through that.

That sounds like a really scary time being there and being present at the forefront.

It helps with security.

It helps with validation.

And those are things that can really help center someone who's really struggling.

You know, it's really interesting thinking about that concept from a child's perspective of coming up with all these amazing things that, you know, if we make all these things and you can be happy and unfortunately, happiness isn't necessarily a place we arrive at ever.

Happiness, we learn, is in moments.

So it's really important, I think, to also have that discussion.

And, you know, we talked a little bit before the show about, finding gratitude for things in your life that bring you joy or that bring you comfort or warmth, support, whatever it really is.

So really that idea of the more we can practice that, that's the happiness in those moments.

I like this idea that happiness isn't this permanent state that you arrive at that because people will ask each other like, are you happy?

Right, I think so, I'm like like right now.

Always like what?

Like what's the actual question?

Right?

And the implication is like, well, are you a happy person all the time as opposed to like, I think what people are generally mean by it's like, are you content with your life?

But that's not the same as happiness.

And being content with your life can still mean I'm grappling with grief or depression or other things, and so it's just more complex in the same way the doctor is saying grief isn't something that you do, and then you set behind it.

It's done with, it's more complex than that.

So, and by the way, we've talked about this, this list here, Patty, it is the list of a child, but it becomes this fascinating list that grows and grows and grows throughout a lifetime.

I want to say, I think my favorite thing on the list of all the things careful.

Oh, no, I can't.

Never in the spoiler.

But it's like such a small throwaway thing.

I'm going to say it.

Yeah, I'm okay.

This is my I need to know.

I'm telling you everything.

No, I'm not telling you everything.

There's many, many items on the list and different people will ring true with different ones.

I just thought I loved the poignancy of saying, you're getting on a train, and the doors of the train are closing and someone else barely makes it on, and you make eye contact with them and you don't even say anything.

It's just like, yeah, brother, we we got that's beautiful.

This is one of my favorites.

I love that, like the macro human.

And it's so little and it's so yeah, it's the kind of thing that comes and goes and you forget.

But I love the way that's written, because it's just a reminder that, like, the human experience can be shared and connected in very different ways.

And I just, I loved that.

So, what do you want to tell me?

A little bit of how the list affects you as a director here?

Well, it it makes me think of things that maybe I wouldn't have thought of before.

And then outside of the list, it makes me think of all the things that I think are brilliant.

And what I've been trying to do is all of with all of the different groups of people in my life, I've been trying to get them to write slips with their brilliant things on them, including my granddaughters, my son, and putting them into the box of of the list.

They don't necessarily they won't be read out loud.

No one, you know, no one is going to to read that one out loud, but they're in that box.

And for me, that's a really important thing because it means the accumulation of all those people and everything that they think is brilliant is there, and it's physically there.

It's powerful.

And I love the the way that this show allows, at least from what I'm reading on a script.

and I know the, the team on stage, I mean, it's a small, beautiful team at Blackfriars doing this.

They're going to do such a good job.

This this play has been so respected around the world.

I love the way that it the list made me feel because it did not make me feel like, well, this is what I need to do to help someone with deep seeded depression, clinical depression, or suicidal ideation.

It did make me think that there is still so much beauty in this world.

Yet when a lot of what I fixate on brings me down, there's a difference between thinking that just solves everything versus can I stop for a moment and say, boy, I've been fixated on all the things that are wrong, what's right here, and what can that do it for me?

Yeah.

And Daniel's character in the play eventually says, I didn't.

I realize now how much this list changed my life.

There you go.

And that that is so important that this character gets to that discovery, because he does do all the things that, we've been talking about.

He feels guilty.

He feels responsible.

He feels sad.

He feels love.

There's so much love in this play.

Yeah.

You want to jump in there.

You know we often in our family often have concerns like as soon as you hear something is going to be about suicide.

There's so many ways that it can go wrong.

And we sort of have this kind of like oh what is this one going to be about?

That really does seem like this play is is not really about suicide at all.

It's really about, kind of if you want to call it growth, post-traumatic growth.

It's about having painful things happen and growing from them and becoming a different person each day.

And when that's the focus, I think that can be very life affirming.

So Daniel did my choice of my favorite thing.

Did that surprise you?

It did, but that's also one of my favorite ones, because it's one of those things that, you know, you've lived at least one time.

Oh yeah.

You know, if you like, even like the first time you've ever been on a subway in New York City, when you see that happen and you're just like, yes, you know, that's so great.

And that's the type of story that you go home and tell your, your roommate or your, your loved one or your, you know, over the dinner, you know, over the dining room table, just like this one little thing happened today and it just put such a smile on my face.

And I felt so good that that person who was carrying a portfolio and an extra bag and had a big park on, whatever it is, you know, but that that struggle just to get onto the train at the right time can be life or death to people in that moment.

And here you thought I was going to spoil the biggest parts of this.

Oh, God, you've got.

So it's going to take more than that.

Just for it, isn't it?

Yeah.

You got the dog thing.

So I'm in real trouble with the team from Blackfriars, which is, by the way, where you can see every brilliant thing starting next Thursday online.

Where, what's the website?

Patty?

ww.blackfriars.org.

I don't know if you're able to share a favorite part of the list.

okay.

Because it's a long it's a long list.

It's a long list.

people that are in the audience with the numbered, you know, pieces of paper.

Some will think this is going to end quickly, and some will think, how long is the show going to be?

that's a lot.

But we don't read every single one, which is good.

but other than having a favorite thing on the list.

Evan, my favorite thing is that this little boy is a person like we are all children at some point who has the luxury of growing up, being able to go to college, having two parents, whether they're depressed or suicidal or not.

So and I think that through this whole story, anyone sitting in the audience, even if they've never dealt directly or thought they were dealing with somebody who was depressed, they're just glimmers through the whole thing.

They're just these little, these little rays of light of like, oh, wait a minute, I wasn't this kid, but I had that happen to me.

Oh, I wasn't this college kid, but I fell in with fell in love with someone in college.

I know what it was like to be shy.

I know what it's like to hold back when I'd rather just be screaming and shouting and dancing in the streets, you know, with abandon.

so there are just so many little life themes through this whole thing and working with Patty so closely on this, with the discussions that we've had of like, well, what what would you do in that moment?

How would you say that?

Well, what how would that make you feel?

You know, so it's trying to bring.

Yeah.

At the best of my ability to bring this character to life in a way that everyone all please 126 seats every night.

We don't have money, but we'd love to sell it out.

personal pitch.

but, it there's just that many more people and and minds and souls in there that will be connecting.

If you can't, if you leave this play and you felt nothing, you're just you're dead inside.

And I you I mean, it really is just it's so moving to me.

There's not a night that we perform it that I'm not in tears even now.

oh, here it goes.

it's Daniel.

I also will say that if this script would have used the vehicle of the list to solve all of the problems of the family, I think it would never have been as a worldwide phenomenon, as the Guardian says.

And that's that's the hope.

That's such a driving force of it, you know?

But the.

Because you can't it's as Steven.

Yeah, it's not that simple.

You know, it's Tony said it's not that simple to just make a list and say, okay, you'll feel happy now.

And as you said, well, what's happy?

I don't know, you know, and there, you know, there's there are moments in the show with this character where he's just like, I'm doing my best, but I don't know that I'll ever be able to be joyful.

You know, there's a lot going on in the world, and yet I can't.

I can imagine that a lot of people who see the show will want to make their own list.

I think that we have not.

Not because it solves every problem, but because you start thinking like, what are the things that give you the most joy, the little things, the things that are, I mean, like the golden retriever in our house, if she knows there's somebody else coming to the house, it is the biggest thing in the world to this dog.

a person who's not us is coming here.

Oh my gosh.

And it's like, what can I do to prepare?

I could not be happier.

And I just love watching the dog jump up on the window look like who is coming?

Who could be coming.

Everybody could be coming.

It could be great.

I love that.

It's like one of the the little things that I would put on that list first, like, right.

It's like the unbridled joy and unconditional love of a pet.

You'll never, you know, you'll never experience that until after you've lost a pet.

And then you come home from work the next day and they're not there wagging their tail.

Got a good eye.

I got a good question that relates to because, as we mentioned, the pet is it part of the the story of the background of this character?

When we come back from this only break, I have an important question from a listener about how and when we talk to kids about to a side.

So we're going to hit that and we're going to come back.

We'll make sure you know all about how to see every brilliant thing.

This is a play if you have never heard of it.

Debuted just over ten years ago at the Edinburgh Fringe in Scotland, and it has become this, this really popular show around the world.

Blackfriars wanted to bring it five years ago and then, well, a pandemic.

So now it's coming in 2025, it debuts one week from tonight.

We'll come right back with the team here.

Coming up in our second, our Mountain Stage is a live music program based in Charleston, West Virginia, but airing on NPR stations around the country for more than 40 years.

A live recording of Mountain Stage is coming to Rochester next week.

Kathy Mateo, longtime award winning singer songwriter, is now the host of Mount Stage.

She's my guest.

Next hour, we're going to talk to Kathy about the craft of songwriting, the power of live music, and more.

Meta gained an injunction banning a former employee from criticizing the company, but before that happened, she recorded an NPR interview, which we hear on the next Morning Edition from NPR news.

Tomorrow morning at five.

This is connections.

I'm Jeff Anderson.

Patti Lewis Brown is the director of Every brilliant thing.

Daniel May Jack is the actor in every brilliant thing, the actor and every brilliant thing is the whole thing.

no, actually, the audience is the whole thing.

This is this is a play that, that you can learn more in our show notes.

We'll link it to Blackfriars.

You can get tickets if you want.

and eight performances starting one week from tonight at Blackfriars.

Hayley Amorim is with us.

Director of youth and community engagement at Nami Rochester.

Doctor Tony Pisani is with us, a psychologist, a family therapist, suicide prevention researcher, founder of Safe Side Prevention.

And we have a question from an audience member about what is what is too young to talk to kids about suicide.

And the first thing that I thought of was in the show, the mother's suicide attempt happens when the kid is seven, seven years old.

So when you're seven and you have a parent who has attempted suicide, you're going almost certainly to learn about or I mean, I guess you could shield or protect from it, but kids at that age will probably learn in a way that's different than, say, a ten year old or a 12 year old who's almost never heard of it other than and maybe encountering it in a description in media far away.

So let me start with Doctor Pisani.

Is there a simple way to describe what's too young to talk to kids about suicide?

I think I would start first with the principle of, I don't think we should ever, lie or make things up to children.

So, So.

Okay, so once we know that, what if they're three?

What if they're four?

What if they're seven?

I think the the the way I tend to, think about it is, start with questions before answers.

so that means to say, what what what are you understand about how uncle died?

asking that question, one thing you might find, especially at age seven, which is pretty, is more savvy than we might think.

they may know, or may know more than you think.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Because, suicide makes us especially distressed and, and confused in ways that many times other kinds of death don't.

And when you are dependent upon these adults that are around you, you are the most sensitive one in the room to what's going on with them.

So my guess they they may have heard a phone call.

They may have seen a text.

So, so when you so be ready and when they if you ask that question, how do you know?

What do you know about how that person died.

that they might say he killed himself or something like that.

And then they say I don't know.

well what do you know about it.

What do you want to know about it?

so I think that's often the key is kind of where we, where we were before, when we're talking about, you know, your readiness as a, as a child to be there or not be there when the call had to be put down.

if if you're saying, well, what do you want to know about it?

if any sense a little said.

Well, this person died in a different way from some other people who have died.

So if you want to talk about it, I'm happy to tell you what that is.

and let the child guide you in terms of what they're ready, especially at those very young ages.

That way, you've never said you've never lied to them about it.

you've shown your openness to talk about it.

but, but you don't have to necessarily crash into their lives and tell them something that they're not ready to hear.

You know, it's interesting, Tony, I'm thinking about.

My son was six when we had to put a cat down, and he wanted to be there, and he was.

It was so peaceful and surprising to me.

He was very serious.

And, you know, we were allowed to hold her as she died.

And he was there, and, he was sad but not overwhelmed in a way that I would.

I never would have thought to take him if he didn't ask to be part of it, because I was thinking of my own experience as a fifth grader who couldn't be there when our family dog was put down.

So just so every kid's a little different, I guess, in that way.

Yeah, that that's such a perfect example.

Perfect example of.

And we we can listen to what if, you know, if we're tuned in to like, what does this person want.

This little person want to know what do they seem ready to know?

I'm going to be ready to say I don't have to be afraid.

And this, this, this gives us great courage because it means that if a child is asking, then they're ready to hear.

and then we don't have to be afraid to say it if they're showing the readiness.

You didn't have to be afraid to bring your son.

I'm sure you were a little bit nervous, but but if he's saying I'm ready, they probably is.

They pretty much know because you kids are very well defended against things that, that they don't want to take in, that they can they can show those way through behavior, through what they say that they don't want to want to know.

So if they are, then you can feel okay telling them the truth.

Well, and when you talk about not lying, making an a conscious decision as a parent to whatever happens, I'm not going to lie to my kids.

That's not the same as I'm going to tell them everything.

you know, in in every detail.

Right?

But but that is a difference in saying, oh, you know, some sort of sugarcoated thing.

That's not true.

So that's actually I'm glad you bring that up.

One important thing is that, I would not necessarily say the method again, unless the child is really asking for that or there's a reason perhaps.

Yeah.

Or there's a reason.

In general, this is true.

And this is certainly true for the media always that we don't you know, we try not to describe the method.

so but in the case of a, in the case of a child, so you don't have to say, you can just say the person that, that, that this, he, he, he died on purpose, because he was feeling so, so, so bad and could and didn't take it wasn't able to ask other people, even though so many people were there to help him.

and, you know, and if the, if the, if the child is old enough and really wants to know, then of course we will tell them, because the same principle that means that they're ready.

But that's probably not going to be until a teenage, a teenager, other kids are going to know this is too scary to ask about.

And they're probably, I'm not sure, for every single child in the world, but in general, the they'll be a little bit older before they're going to actually ask something that specific.

I don't know what you think.

Well, I'm going to ask Hayley, from the perspective of the director of Youth and Community engagement at Nami.

One of my concerns is, you know, we can try to guide information that our kids get, but they also will hear things when they're at school, when they're on the bus, when they're with friends.

And on topics like this, it can get, it can get either graphic or, there can be misinformation.

The way we talk about suicide, is there an age that you want kids to be educated about?

I mean, like, there's not like at five, this at seven, this at ten this.

How do you think about it at the end of the day?

I mean, there's so much work that's been done when it comes to mental health crisis and the youth mental health crisis going on, especially with suicide.

I like to focus more on prevention as much as we can, so we tailor it for different audiences.

But at the end of the day, the more we can talk about what mental health is as a whole and maybe build on it for certain age groups, that's one of the first steps, that I personally think is really important for us to be able to approach all this.

The other thing I'll say, which is what I'm really proud to do, amongst many other things that I do at my role here at Nami Rochester.

But I have the opportunity as someone living with a mental health condition, who has lived with a mental health condition since they were six years old.

I go into schools and I just very openly talk about what my experience was like, and I go down the timeline and I show them that, hey, maybe even if you're not impacted by any of the things I'm describing, you're more than likely going to have someone in your life along the way that could really benefit from hearing the things you're hearing today.

And so when I'm upfront about how even when I was 13 years old, first in the school counseling office, I didn't want to be there.

I didn't want anyone seeing me, seeing that counseling center and knowing what I was going there for.

And I think kids and adolescents they can pick up on when people aren't being real, especially presenters.

I think the more real we can be, the better they might be able to receive all of that information.

Just to build on that, Haley, I think it's so important that people know that struggling is common, but suicide is rare, that we want.

Because what's most common is what happens in this play, which is that people in their own ways, they won't all be through a list of, you know, many, many brilliant things.

But most people, it's very common to struggle and even to have thoughts about suicide.

but most people grow from those things are stronger because of those things.

and, and I think that's important for kids to know, too, that this is not just a common way of coping.

it's, it's it's a it's rare.

It does happen.

and, but but we want to know that the we always want to emphasize the, the story of of of overcoming well and okay.

See look at this play has given us so many different roads to go down.

That's, that's the beauty of every brilliant thing.

that's one of the brilliant things about it, honestly.

Tony, almost every time we talk mental health, I get emails from people who say, well, the real issue today is kids are not resilient and we're not teaching them to be resilient.

And what you are emphasizing here is even if you have struggled, even if you have thought about suicide, that does not mean you're not resilient.

And in fact, probably the opposite.

Emphasizing the resilience isn't just a technique, it's a reality that most people are pretty resilient.

Yeah, and so are groups.

And this is one of the things I think is so interesting, we haven't mentioned about the play is that this isn't just one person's list.

This is a whole group.

And and even when one member of a group isn't particularly strong, that's, you know, we're in a, in a given group, there will be people who are and we can, you know, I think that forming those connections are especially important in that way.

so, yeah, I agree with you.

It, you know, it.

Well, we, we I think people tend to hear a lot about, you know, suicide rates rising or those things and they think, oh, you know, kids are just they can't know.

Well, actually, it's still most kids even the kids that you see and you think, oh, boy, you know, you look at you sometimes just from the outside, you can see they're hurting.

I'm sure you see that when you go to the schools.

Haley.

Now, most of them are going to be okay.

and I think that's an important message to quick note on resilience.

If you want to add anything, there.

Yeah.

I mean.

It's hard.

That's a really big one.

That's a really big word.

I would just say having people in your network, being able to practice gratitude, there's a lot of different bricks that you can lay that can, you know, build that framework to resilience.

Yeah.

Not one simple key.

No, I really appreciate I appreciate the fact that Haley Antonio keep reminding us sometimes we oversimplify these conversations.

and they're not always pat and they're not always simple.

And that's one of the reasons that every brilliant thing has been so popular is it tries to engage with these really hard things in ways that at times are really aching, and times are always a really poignant and funny, and light and and lovely.

So, Patty, I'm going to give you one minute to let the audience know again, if they want to enjoy this, they want to even participate in this.

What do you want them to know?

Absolutely.

I think that, I think the best plays make us think, feel and laugh.

And this play is going to definitely do all three of those things, and it's going to give you an opportunity to participate at your own comfort level.

And I do want to emphasize that, that no one's going to force you to do anything that you might not.

But I think that once even sitting next to someone who has chosen to participate in some way is a very powerful thing.

Daniel May Jack is doing a lot of work to make sure he's sizing people up as they come in, get to know the audience, and having an experience together as much as you say that, that can be terrifying.

How much are you looking forward to next Thursday?

Oh, I can't wait till we have people there and I can really start to finally, after months, feel or feel what it will be like to be in that group.

it's the the group that the hive mind, all of those things that will make it really come to life.

I all have no idea what to expect from people.

and hopefully nobody will doze off.

I don't think we're going to give them that opportunity.

I would like to add one thing.

I just bouncing off of what?

Tony and Haley both said it's about when to talk to a child.

Just from the perspective of this character and what I've learned.

I'm not a mental health expert.

Let's just put that out there.

I'm just a guy that's acting, It's really important.

From what I've learned to say something.

If the child is curious, if the child doesn't understand what's happening, if you are struggling with the situation, you still have to.

And you.

You cannot ignore the child.

Don't shut out their curiosity.

Don't let it.

Don't shut out their curiosity.

Don't shut out their their their their, quest to make things better because they may very well be blaming themselves.

And you don't know why.

But my character, I could tell he doesn't get a lot of help, but boy, does he have fun.

He really knows how to make the most of it.

There's a lot of love in this show.

Absolutely.

It's called Every Brilliant Thing.

And, Blackfriars.

Next Thursday night starts eight different performances.

Probably gonna be a little different each night.

I mean, the audience will be different.

I mean, that's totally different every night.

You can come back and see it again.

Yeah.

Patti Lewis Brown, Daniel magic.

Good luck to both of you.

Thank you for sharing with us this hour.

Yeah, I want to thank Hayley Emery from Nami.

Thank you for sharing your expertise.

Where do you want people to get more information?

Yeah, you can just go to Nami, rock.org and Amy Rock talk.

Thank you Hayley.

Doctor Pisani thank you for being here.

Where would you send people online to learn more.

we have a free training online.

If people want to be able to talk with others about suicide that's safe site prevention.

Dot com slash here with you.

Thank you for being here.

More connections coming up.

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