- Hello and welcome to "Inspire."

On today's show, we feature an important discussion about the history of legislation and what life is like for LGBTQ plus individuals in the state of Kansas.

Please watch with an open mind and an open heart.

(bright music) - [Announcer 1] "Inspire" is sponsored by Kansas Furniture Mart, using furniture to inspire conversation, and by the Blanche Bryden Foundation.

- [Announcer 2] The Friends of KTWU, honored to support programs and services that enrich the lives of our viewers.

- [Announcer 3] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) (upbeat music continues) - Hello and welcome to "Inspire."

I'm so happy to be here with my co-host Amber Dickinson, and of course Danielle Norwood, and you.

We all welcome you to a very special addition of "Inspire", featuring an important discussion about our LGBTQ individuals in Kansas and what life is like for them.

So we hope that you're gonna learn a lot.

We are right in the middle of a red state.

- The platform for this discussion is based on a new film, "No Place Like Home, the Struggle Against Hate in Kansas."

This film provides an inside look at the reality of life for our LGBTQ plus communities in Kansas.

- This film also talks about the history of LGBTQ plus legislation in Kansas, and we continue this discussion with Dr. Don Haider-Markel, Political Science professor of whom we were able to communicate with prior to this studio interview, Oscar Award winner and director for "No Place Like Home, "the Struggle Against Hate in Kansas."

Kevin Willmott, CJ Janovy, author for "No Place Like Home, "Lessons in Activism from LGBTQ Kansas," and which Kevin's film is based on.

And Luc Bensimon, activist for Black Trans Advocacy Coalition.

Kevin, CJ and Luc, thank you so much for joining us today on "Inspire."

We're so thankful that you're here giving us your time and your knowledge.

(group laughing) - It's good to be here, thank you.

- So, first of all, what I was really struck by in the book, and obviously that was carried over in the documentary, is this idea that perhaps positive legislation wasn't something that is a pipe dream or something that never happened in Kansas.

And in fact, we know that in particular in the Wichita area in the '70s, there was actually some pro queer legislation.

Could we talk a little bit about what that was and the outcome of that legislation?

- I'll give it a shot.

(group laughing) It predates my expertise.

- Okay.

- But 1978 Wichita was among a handful of states around the country, not just on the East or West Coast, that actually passed laws saying it was illegal to discriminate against gay people.

And that happened in Wichita in 1978, was very quickly met with a backlash and rescinded.

I think voters repealed that pretty quickly.

- And there was a role played by Anita Bryant, I'm assuming, in repealing this particular legislation.

At this time, there was this huge push to sort of save the children, which as we know is really not what's happening here, right?

And so I think that what we're really seeing when I think about that particular snapshot in history is echoes of that certainly now.

And we have these populations that are working for human rights and equality and then we have people coming in to oppress those rights.

And I think something that I was really struck by in particular with the book and the documentary was this idea that it was on the ground activists that were really working against those efforts to oppress and discriminate against individuals.

So what was it like to talk to those people that were doing that on the ground work?

And I'd love to hear from Luc, of course, because you are currently doing that work.

So if you could talk a little bit about interviewing those individuals.

And Luc, if you'd like to chime in for us as well, that'd be wonderful.

- I'll just say real quickly that when I started talking to people for the book, what very quickly happened was people shared stories with me that were not easy to tell.

People had been through some painful experiences and they were telling me really their whole life story.

And the fact that people placed this kind of trust in me and shared these stories and a lot of people said, it's painful to tell this story, but I wanna tell it because I hope no one else has to go through what I went through.

And that was such a huge honor and responsibility that it really gave me a lot of momentum to keep going and get those stories out in the world.

- And Luc.

- Oh man, I don't even know where to start with that.

I'll say this.

I think it's tough for me because I'm a triple threat.

And what I mean by that is that I'm African American, I was assigned female at birth and I have a mild form of cerebral palsy on my right side, so.

- So you felt like there were three things that you had to overcome.

- Absolutely, my mother said from, she said, "These are things that you came in this world with "and you're going to be fighting them every day, so."

- Absolutely, and Kevin, you are an Oscar winner.

You've done, this is quite a different topic for you.

We know you from "Jayhawkers" and those type of things.

When you read CJ's book and you were like, I wanna be a part of this, what made you want to go ahead and bring it to life?

- Sure, well, I think that the LGBTQ issues that are going on now are really just kind of part of the narrative I've really always sold.

You know, that in the end it's really, I see it as democracy, you know, it's, you know, the fair treatment of people is really kind of what all my films are dealing with.

And right now, I think, you know, with the legislation and the backlash and the attacks that you see in all around the country right now against black folks, against gay folks, against trans folks, you know, against women, you know, it's just an example of how it's all cut from the same cloth in that sense, you know?

And so for me it wasn't really a departure so much as a continuation of the kind of films I've always tried to make.

My films are always about rights in various ways and no bigger fight for rights right now than the trans situation in America right now.

- Absolutely, I want to applaud you for your transparency, 'cause I know being an African American female, that being transparent here in the state of Kansas has its own challenges.

And then you add some of the other things that you talked about in the video.

What was it like for you doing the video and was it a freeing process for you to be able to share like that?

Or did it make you pause afterwards like, oh my goodness, what did I share and make you a little nervous afterwards?

- All the above.

(group laughing) All the above.

I was very nervous, but I know as I say to people that ask me that, I just wanna make sure that there's some representation.

- [Danielle] Absolutely.

- There has to be some representation.

From what I learned through the organization that I work with, Black Trans Advocacy Coalition, is that they teach me how to educate non people of color, what it's like to be a trans person of color.

So that's what I feel like I was doing with my part in the film, was just educating.

- And I want you to know that you've been heard.

And I appreciate you for doing that.

- Right.

- So this seemed like a very consistent theme that activists who were doing this incredible work throughout the state of Kansas, it seemed to be sort of, there was an element of isolation to the work that was being done.

Do you feel isolated in some way?

Or do you feel like you have true allies in these communities?

- [Danielle] Be honest.

(group laughing) - I feel-- - And honestly, if you don't wanna answer that question, don't answer my question.

- Real talk, I feel isolated, okay?

It's not hard to say.

It's just going back and looking at certain situations and events that I've been involved in.

And I seem to end up being the only African American and the only trans man.

And I don't know everybody's situation, but then I feel like the only person who has a physical disability, 'cause there's invisible disabilities.

But I feel like I'm the person, the only person that represents a whole lot of diversity, so.

- And CJ was that one of the reasons when you were deciding to do this book that you thought that these people needed to be heard?

And I mean, they're part, they're just like us, you know, they're just, you know, like Danielle, like Amber, like any of you, we just need to walk in their shoes and just 'cause they're no different.

- Well, I think that's one of the things that I tried to make clear in the book, you know, there were different political actions happening in different towns throughout Kansas and you know, the books came out five years ago now.

So I was really writing about stuff that was happening 10 years ago.

And there were movements in places like Hutchinson and Salina and Manhattan to try to, you know, pass anti-discrimination laws much like in Wichita in 1978.

And so inevitably in those towns there would be a small handful of people who were leaders in that effort and taking some amount of risk to do so.

But by doing that, they educated their communities as well by showing up at City Hall and, you know, being interviewed by the newspaper or standing on a street corner with a sign.

So those are just a few examples in the book.

And then, you know, just the power of people telling their stories.

I think that, you know, I talked to a lot of different people with a lot of different life experiences and I think it would be hard for any reader of any orientation in any kind of geographic area, to not find some line in that book that resonates.

- Resonates with them.

- But the people that I wrote about, I'll say also were sort of already in the spotlight because they were showing up at City Hall and because they were quoted in the newspapers.

And so there are a whole lot of people who were sharing an experience like Luc's, I think.

- And there's fear in that.

- Sure.

- I mean, there's fear.

Luc, can you expand a bit on that?

- (sighs) Fear, huh.

So the only thing I can tell you is that while I was at the conference, I got a message that said the bathroom bill has been passed and my heart sank, like sank 'cause I thought to myself, now when I go back, I don't even get a chance to rest.

I gotta go hit the ground running.

So I feel like there's more fear now than there was maybe four or five years ago.

- Absolutely.

- Four or five years ago.

There's more fear now.

- And I think too that, you know, activism in a small town is always more difficult.

You know, that's one of the things that intrigued me about CJ's book was really, you know, people telling their stories about their struggles in small towns.

I mean, you know, we don't really even associate activism with small towns.

You know, and in small towns they can come after you in a small town.

I mean, they come after your job, they come after you and there's nobody there really to kind of watch you and protect you.

And that's one of the things I think the film kind of talks a bit about is that, you know, the kind of, you know, personal attacks people have to withstand when they step out and take on these issues.

- Mm-hmm, we have been having a wonderful discussion and we thank you so much.

I hope you don't go away because there's so much more to learn.

We did have an opportunity to visit with Dr. Don Haider-Markel, professor of Political Science at the University of Kansas.

Let's see what he has to say about federal, state, and county laws and how these work or don't work together for protections for LGBTQ plus communities.

Please stay with us.

(upbeat music) - Professor Don Haider-Markel is here with us.

He's a Political Science professor for the University of Kansas.

And we were having a very in depth conversation previously.

And I want to go back to that because there are some things that I understood but just kind of skimmed the surface.

Would you go more in depth so I can understand and our audience can understand about some of the legislation that's currently out there?

And you said that there are some counties that have more LGBTQ legislation than others.

Would you go back to that for us?

- Sure, well, just to clarify, in 2020, the US Supreme Court basically issued a decision on a number of cases that bans discrimination in employment based on sexual orientation and or gender identity.

So this policy basically dovetails on what you can think of as the original 1964 Civil Rights Act, which basically would ban discrimination on the basis of race and also gender.

So with that in mind, that's what we're operating under today.

Before 2020, a number of localities in Kansas had adopted similar protections, but also extended beyond employment to things like public accommodations and credit.

And then one county that would be Wyandotte County, had also adopted local legislation in this regard.

So there's some 15, 16 cities in Kansas, including Lawrence and Manhattan as well as Lenexa that adopted these policies before 2020.

And no one's really acted since then except for one city.

But most of this is basically a moot issue for employment, at least at this point since there are federal protections.

That said, the sort of discrimination in housing credit and things like that is still technically legal in most of the state of Kansas.

- You said that discrimination is still technically legal against LGBTQ plus people.

- On the basis of things like housing or credit or public accommodations.

Unless you're in a particular locality like Lenexa, that kind of discrimination would not be illegal.

- And how can we get that changed?

- So working with local governments, but also with the state government, we've had our last two Democratic governors have in enacted executive orders to extend these protections.

Those executive orders, however, only stand insofar as the next governor doesn't repeal them.

So legislation at the state level would be necessary.

But in the meantime, I think the focus of activists in Kansas has really been in getting some of these local ordinances.

- Well, there's certainly a lot that we could talk about with this discussion.

And I want to go even further and know Betty Lou is going to talk about the history of LGBTQ legislation within the state of Kansas in our next break.

But we're going to go and take a break right now and find out more about this with our professor from Kansas University professor, Dr. Don Haider-Markel, right here on "Inspire."

(upbeat music) - [Glinda] "No Place Like Home."

- Watching someone's rights get taken away, and to know that 70% of Kansans voted to do that.

- They are politicizing trans identity to the point where they wanna legislative out of existence.

- There have been 10 measures attacking transgender children.

- You're telling children like my daughter that she is less than other children.

(suspenseful music) - Welcome back, we're back in the studio with Kevin Willmott and CJ Janovy and Luc Bensimon.

And in our last discussion we were talking about the difficulties that our LGBTQ plus brethren and sisters have in our state of Kansas just basically dealing with the realities of living their lives on a daily basis.

And I know as a person of color, we talk about everybody is very similar, everybody's just like each other.

But I wanna talk about the fact that one of the things that I celebrate as a person of color is the diversity that we all bring to the table.

Because as much as we wanna talk that everybody is all the same, we're not all the same.

So would you please speak to that and some of the ways that you kind of showed that throughout your film?

- Well, I think we tried to capture a bit of the total experience, you know, a lot of different segments from the gay and trans community.

And, you know, Kansas is unique in the sense that, you know, on the surface everybody, it seems to be really cool here, you know, and Kansas has always had the reputation of being a moderate to, you know, in some ways a progressive state.

And that's not the case anymore.

I mean, that's just not the case anymore.

I mean, people, you know, it's like, you know, President Biden said the other day, this is not your father's Republican party.

- Right, yeah.

- Yes.

- And it's a different world now that we're living in and it's not Bob Dole's Republican party.

- [Amber] Correct.

- It's a different Republican party and these folks, you know, are really trying to make it difficult for people to live their lives here.

And so for me, you know, the kind of diversity that I try to express in my movies is a real diversity in terms of diversity's difficult and diversity is complicated and it challenges folks.

And so that's a multiracial kind of multi, you know, sexual democracy.

And that's what, you know, we are striving for.

I don't think everybody's totally signed onto that yet.

(group laughing) So, you know, but that's the goal.

And so, you know, you're seeing a lot of backlash right now in this state.

And this state's no different than the other states right now that are attacking in particular trans folks.

And for me, you know, a lot of my movies deal with history and I see the connection with history.

I see very similar kind of ways that these attacks remind me of the attacks in the civil rights world.

- Yes.

- It remind me of the attacks that Dr. King went through.

And I think people, some of the people that are committing these attacks don't think of themselves that way.

But unfortunately, that's exactly what it is.

- Yes.

- So when we look at liberation movements from a historical perspective, we really see that momentum starts to pick up when all different kinds of people get involved in these liberation movements.

- [Kevin] That's right.

- We see it in women's liberation, we see it in civil rights liberation.

We're seeing it with, you know, LGBTQ plus trans liberation.

So my question then is I understand that I have inherent privilege.

I am white, I am married to a man.

So where I am coming from to try to participate in this discussion is different than where other people are coming from.

So when we think about this concept of allyship, especially for those of us who have this inherent privilege, what are some of the things that people can be doing to be true allies?

Luc, do you have anything you might want to say about that?

- The only thing I have for that is education.

You gotta start educating individuals.

If you have not ever encountered a trans person, for example, in your life, and you wanna kinda learn a little more, go shake someone's hand.

That's what I tell people when I give presentations, go shake someone's hand because I can't be the only trans men, you know, so.

- And get them into a conversation.

And I think you'll find that everybody has so much more in common than different.

Did you find that, CJ, when you were interviewing people?

- Well, I'm a lesbian, so a lot of the people that I was talking with, we had that in common.

- [Betty Lou] Right.

- And, you know, I'm 60 years old, so I'm not afraid to say that and.

- Don't be, sister, you look good.

- Yeah, go for it.

- I'm trying to use that.

I'm trying to use it because I've earned some experience that I can deploy.

You know, so I've met a lot of different people in my life and I've learned to have a certain amount of empathy.

And my job is in journalism, trains me to try to listen and believe people when they tell their stories.

And so that goes along with education.

You know, you have to be, you said at the beginning, let's be open minded.

You have to believe when someone tells you, this is who I am.

- [Betty Lou] Right.

- This is who I've always been, and even if I've tried to change, it's not possible because this is who I am.

- But wouldn't you say the education goes beyond just having somebody approach you?

'Cause again, as a person of color, I don't want to be the ultimate educator for a person who doesn't understand, I'm gonna need you to get some books.

- Sure.

- I need you to go to Google and do that education too.

Because again, you need to understand things before you come to me, correct?

- So those are for the folks who are willing to do that work.

But I think what we're seeing now in this super severe backlash is a lot of people had, you know, have no idea the stakes.

They have no idea what's really going on.

And so I'm thinking about how do we open hearts and minds for people who don't know any trans people, don't think they know any trans people, don't really care whether they do or not.

Don't think that any of these issues are gonna apply to them.

And so how can we help people make that connection between, you know, okay, you're my neighbor, you might care, you might not really care about the things that, the newspaper stories that you're not reading 'cause you think they don't apply to you.

Here's why I'm worried and I can we have a conversation about this?

- Absolutely, this is all wonderful.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for your continued insight and wisdom on this issue.

As you saw earlier, we had the pleasure of sitting down with Professor Don Haider-Markel, Political Science professor from the University of Kansas.

Let's hear a bit more from our discussion.

In this segment we talk about where anti LGBTQ plus ideology comes from, listen in.

(upbeat music) - We're so happy to be back with professor Dr. Don Haider-Markel, who's Political Science professor for the University of Kansas.

And we want to continue our discussion and we're seeing statewide and nationwide discrimination against LGBTQ communities.

And where does all of that stem from?

Is it from religious backgrounds?

Where is that coming from?

- So it's a sort of complicated story.

I think what you are seeing right now is a backlash that really began to take root in 2015, 2016.

Basically what has happened is that in the 2000s, the transgender rights movement had a great deal of success at the local as well as at the state level, and even with some national policies, including the National Hate Crimes Act.

Those successes have engendered a backlash against the transgender rights movement in particular.

That really began, we began to see that in 2015 and 2016 in places like Houston as well as North Carolina and Indiana, which originally began to push back against some of these successes.

In North Carolina, for example, there was a pushback against a local ordinance as well as an attempt to include a bathroom ban on transgender folks using the bathrooms that they identified with as their gender.

Those early efforts really kind of fell apart in a kind of reaction in the private sector against these measures.

And they kind of went away.

Then of course, Trump was elected and some of his first steps as president were to repeal some of the guidelines that came from the federal government about public schools, for example, as well as transgender people serving in the military.

And that really sort of snowballed going forward with a number of states continuing to try to increase these bathroom bans.

At the same time, you have this phenomenon that's going on that's really focusing people's attention on children.

And I know it may sound a little strange, but the sort of focus of the QAnon conspiracy theory that took root beginning in 2017 and 2018 really was focused as a movement on this notion that there are these secret child sex trafficking rings out there that need to be broken up.

And while it doesn't explicitly have anything to do with transgender folks, it became this sort of notion of sexualized children as a focus.

And again, they use the same messaging that Anita Bryant used back in the 1970s, which was Save Our Children.

That was the main message of QAnon.

Then fast forward into 2020, we get into the pandemic and what's everybody doing?

People are getting radicalized at home because they're spending so much time on the internet and QAnon gets a real foothold around the country, again, with the focus on children and all these other things you can add to QAnon.

Then during the pandemic, of course, we're all focused on the education of our children and how are public schools functioning.

And we're beginning to see it for some parents first, for the first time they're seeing what's happening in their children's classrooms, et cetera.

On top of that, people are upset about what schools are doing, whether they're closed, whether they're requiring masks of children, et cetera.

So the focus really becomes on children.

So it sort of over the top of that, you have this piggyback element of let's add transgender people to this as a sort of threat to our children.

In particular, it's the same messaging that was used in the 1970s against gays and lesbians.

And it was an effective method then to rile up a conservative base.

And it's working much the same way today.

- This is wonderful information and I wanna get back into this in just a second.

So thank you so much for joining us and we'll be back to continue our discussion on this very important topic here on "Inspire."

(upbeat music) - We're back with Kevin Willmott, Oscar Award winner and director for "No Place Like Home, "the Struggle Against Hate in Kansas," CJ Janovy, author of the book, "No Place Like Home, Lessons in Activism from LGBT Kansas," and Luc Bensimon, activist for Black Trans Advocacy Coalition.

In our last discussion, we were talking about the fact that you, CJ, had let everyone know that you were a lesbian.

Now, how were you treated differently from before anyone knew 'til after?

- People have known for so long that I'm not sure I have a good answer to that.

- [Betty Lou] Okay.

- You know, I came out after graduating from high school in 1980 and, you know, I moved from my hometown of Lincoln, Nebraska out to San Francisco shortly after that.

So, you know, I kind of went to the Promised Land.

- Okay, so that was an intentional move though, to go to San Francisco?

- [CJ] Sure, sure.

- What had you heard about how different it would be there?

Because we don't want people to leave Kansas, we want them to feel welcome here.

So what was your thinking?

- Well, I was thinking I was gonna go to school.

- [Betty Lou] Okay, right.

- Which is what I did.

You know, and you know, I was eager to go to a place where I would have the educational opportunities out there, you know, but as I was leaving, people were saying, "Congratulations, "you're leaving for the Promised Land."

But I was leaving my home and what really struck me about the folks I interviewed for the book is how much they wanted to stay and how much they had stayed.

And, you know, some people couldn't leave for whatever reason, but the activism that people were doing was really an expression of that love.

- Right, 'cause it always seems so much more progressive on the West Coast.

So, but we want people to feel that way here.

- Well, you know, when you talk about what we have in common.

- [Betty Lou] Right.

- You know, gay people love the Prairie too.

- [Betty Lou] Correct.

- You know, I mean, LGBTQ people like small town living just as much as other people who like small town living.

And we find our close friends, we find our chosen family, and those things matter to us just as much as anyone else.

- Well, CJ and Kevin both, I would like to know what your goals are, your goal for writing the book, your goal for directing the film.

What is it that you would like viewers to take from it and where would you like to see this go future forward after people watch it?

- Sure.

Well, I think, you know, this film in particular is kind of about, you know, the current situation in Kansas and the current situation when it comes to LGBTQ rights and a lot of legislature type of things happen, I say kind of behind closed doors.

I mean, no one's paying attention to the legislature when they're saying these things.

Some of the things you see in the film.

And you're seeing that same kind of thing around the country now.

Like, you know, the Tennessee Three is a good example of that.

You know, where these legislatures will kind of do, you know, I would consider, you know, unjust things, you know, and no one's kind of paying attention.

I mean, the majority of us just don't pay attention to the legislature.

- Right.

- I mean, that's just the reality of it.

And so they get away with treating people and kind of making laws and that hurt people.

And because we're not there to see it.

And they say things, that's the thing that really was shocking for me in making the film, they say things on the House floor and the Senate floor that are just inhuman in a lot of ways.

And so, you know, I think for my goal, it was really to kind of let people know this is what's happening in our state.

This is Kansas.

I mean, I'm born and raised in Kansas, I love Kansas.

I just decided to live here and remain here, and make films here.

So it's in that sense, you know, you're taking ownership of your state and I don't think a lot of us know, kind of, a lot of us think we're different than Fred Phelps.

- [Danielle] Yeah, right.

- But you see a lot of the same language on the floor of the House and Senate that Fred Phelps would sign off on.

- Absolutely.

- And out in communities at meetings where we have elected officials sitting in audiences and saying untrue, terrible things about people just trying to live their life in a state that they love.

- [Kevin] That's right.

- So you mentioned earlier, Luc, when the bathroom bill legislation hit and how devastating that was for you.

From what I understand, and obviously correct me if I'm wrong, the day that your film premiered in Salina was the same day that the same legislation, this punitive legislation was passed.

What did that feel like to have this, as you've mentioned it, I think in an interview before, this love letter to activists in Kansas, happening at the same time as this horrible, oppressive legislation, what did that feel like for you?

- I was angry.

- Yeah.

Yeah, it's kind of one of those things that, you know, you don't believe it kind of in a way, you know?

I mean, this is, you know, but that's also kind of part of the role of the film is to explain to the audience, explain to Kansans in particular, this is what's happening right now, and this is what's going on.

And we haven't found a way to respond to it.

I think a lot of folks, it's like when Luc talks about education, it's not the kind of education that happens in a school.

It's the kind of education that happens in life.

And you know, if you believe in democracy, if you believe in freedom, if you believe in people, if you believe in freedom, if you believe in people, you know, having a sense of ownership of where they live, It's just kind of that simple, you know, for me.

And if you don't understand, then you should talk to somebody about it.

You know, you should ask somebody about it, you know, it's like, you know, I've dealt with, growing up in Kansas, I've dealt with people not understanding me being black my whole life.

And I had to have a lot of teaching conversations with folks over the years and as you were saying, it's not a role to necessarily teach, but if you're not willing to teach, then people aren't gonna know.

And it's an unfortunate kind of reality, but that's kind of part of, you know, what life's all about in America.

- It all goes back to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, doesn't it?

- Exactly, and you know, right now they're trying to take that away from a whole lot of folks.

- Absolutely.

- And we should be very concerned about it because, you know, as history's taught us, is that when you think that you are immune to it, then you think they're not coming after you.

- [Danielle] You're next up.

- You know, when someone's taking someone's rights away, they're taking your rights away.

- Absolutely.

- Correct.

Well, thank you, Kevin and CJ, thank you, Luc, for your transparency.

So appreciate all this conversation today.

And thank you to Dr. Don Haider-Markel, professor of Political Science at the University of Kansas.

In this segment, we discuss public opinion, do the voices of our elected representatives truly reflect public opinion?

(upbeat music) - And we're back with Dr. Don Haider-Markel, Political Science professor for the University of Kansas.

And Professor, we need to know the history of the LGBTQ and it seems like most states kind of make everybody sound like everybody's in agreement such as Florida, for example.

You know, their governors saying that, oh, everybody in Florida feels the same way, which we know that's not true.

What is it in Kansas, how are you feeling how people feel here?

- Yeah, so obviously right now, we call Florida and Kansas red states that mean Republicans, tend to be a more conservative population.

So generally speaking, the sort of notions of having protections for LGBTQ people seems at odds with the way the state is.

But when you look at Kansas, it's one of actually the early adopters of this kind of legislation at the local level.

In fact, back in 1977, Wichita adopted an anti-discrimination ordinance that protected on the basis of or protected against discrimination in employment on the basis of sexual orientation.

That measure was repealed the next year in 1978 at the beginning of a backlash that occurred against some of the successes of the gay and lesbian movement in the 1970s that coincided with things that were happening in states like California, which had the Briggs Amendment, states like Florida, which had Anita Bryant's Save Our Children Campaign and things like that.

And sort of after that period, not much happened again in Kansas until the 1990s.

And then we had local groups in places like Lawrence as well as Manhattan advocating for city ordinances that would ban discrimination in employment on the basis of sexual orientation.

And later gender identity was added to that as well.

- I know that there, like there's a hot topic about transgender across the state with Governor Kelly and some of the things that she's talked about.

Would you get more into that with us?

- Oh, sure, well, just to clarify, I mean Shawnee is one of the cities that does have local anti-discrimination protections in Kansas.

And most of the cities that have adopted those policies prior to 2020 are in the northeastern portion of the state.

More recently with the history that we've seen in Kansas, it follows sort of a national pattern of backlash.

In particular it focused on trans people with bans on girls, transgender girls playing in athletics in public schools and universities as well as bans on gender affirming care for youth and bans on being able to change gender markers in state documents.

- So if the general public tends to view these attempts to restrict and oppress this population, why do these laws keep taking place?

- Yeah, so I mean, I think you can think about it much the same way we can think about Kansas and the abortion issue.

If you look at the abortion issue in Kansas, based on what the legislature does, the super majority Republican legislature, you would think that in Kansas everyone wants a complete ban on abortion.

But as the ballot measure proved last August, it's certainly not the case that most of the public would support these far-reaching bans.

And the public does want to protect the reproductive choices that women can make in this state.

The legislature, however, doesn't have to cater to the entire state.

Individual legislators are catering to their constituents and their most vocal constituents.

And on these kinds of issues, whether it be abortion or LGBTQ rights, their most vocal constituents are some of the most conservative people in the state.

(upbeat music) - Well, I'm sure that like the three of us, you are learning a lot today from Dr. Haider-Markel.

We're going to be back with one more segment and we thank you very much for being with us on "Inspire."

(upbeat music continues) - Very insightful information from Dr. Don Haider-Markel.

Let's continue with our last segment with our guests, Kevin Willmott, CJ Janovy, and Luc Bensimon.

So we've seen our state legislature pass a series of punitive and oppressive pieces of legislation geared towards the trans population.

Specifically things like not being able to change your gender marker on government documents, not being able to use the bathroom that aligns with your identification.

And we've also seen another piece of legislation designed to deny people gender affirming care.

So when we look at these types of pieces of legislation, these are obviously life altering in a negative way.

So what do you think is the motivation of these types of legislation?

- Possibly fear of not understanding or not, I don't know.

Just not want not knowing, understanding the community and understanding how things work in the trans community.

I don't know.

And flat out just straight out there's may be people that understand it and just are not accepting at all.

- Sure.

- Okay, let's educate while we have people here.

You said how it works.

How does the trans community work?

- I wanna say like, just like everybody else.

You know, we just work, we pay taxes, we do all of that just like everybody else.

We just know that we were born in the wrong bodies.

- Period, final.

- Yeah.

- There's a lot of misinformation that's being spread that people are going to be upset at their transition.

And we really see that these major organizations are reporting that less than 1% of people who transition regret that transition.

And so again, I think this speaks to your point earlier about education.

I think when we look at what's actually in the legislation that's being passed, to me, there seems to be a clear misunderstanding of what it even means to go through the process of transitioning.

There seems to be this assumption that someone just on a whim decides this is something they want to do.

And this seems to run very contrary to the idea that this is just who a person is, right?

Do you feel that people have a basic fundamental misunderstanding of what a person might be feeling like if they are wanting to transition?

- Possibly, possibly.

Like I said, education is the biggest thing.

And I guess for me, I'm just going through all the education out there.

You either like it or love it or hate it or accept it and wanna know more.

- Well, and there are so many steps to actually making that transition 'cause I've known a lot of people who have made that decision.

One of the things that I'm very concerned about, there are a lot of young people making those decisions.

And I know that the suicide rate with young people who are transitioning is just so incredibly high.

And I would like to know, because you feature a lot of people in the film, talk to me because the parents, I love the parents that you talk to, they are so on board and one in particular, Erica, who I didn't even realize that I knew from college, I'm like, oh my God, she's wonderful, she was like, I want to be there and I may not know how to be there the entire time, you teach me how to be there for you because I may not know, I wanna get it right.

But you teach me how to do this for you.

Talk to how parents of kids who are considering transitioning or they don't know what to do as the transitioning is happening, how can they be most supportive?

- Again, just by education and asking questions.

My grandma taught me a valuable lesson.

She said, "If you go to school," 'cause I used to wear a brace on my right leg.

She said, "If you go to school "and a person walks directly up to you and asks you, "'Hey, what's wrong with your leg?

"'Or what's wrong with your arm?'

"Give them the respect of answering them."

But for the person that before they get to you to ask you what it is, they gotta talk to three or four or five people, you don't have to give them the respect of explaining to them what's wrong with your arm and your leg.

Because what they did was they went and said something negative to all those people before they got to you.

Does that make sense?

- Yeah, and that's such a great example, Luc, because you know, I think going back to your question about what's motivating legislators for doing this, I think it's kind of what the governor kind of says in the film.

They wanna bully some people, they wanna bully some people.

And you know, bullying is history teaches us, again, bullying is a technique that politicians have used forever.

And you know, when you go back and you look at the footage of legislators, politicians, you know, saying things, very similar things that they're saying about the trans community, about African Americans in 1960s, very similar language.

And I would argue very similar motivation.

You know, they're speaking to a group of people that they think that the harder they are on the trans community, the more it benefits them, the more political support they get.

And you know, you see politicians all around the country, especially in Florida, especially in Texas, that are capitalizing on this kind of political kind of act in a sense.

Because, you know, it's an act, you know, I mean, you know, they they kind of put this mask on and then they do these things to people.

They hurt people and then they take the mask off because, you know, that's not, I don't even think that's who they are.

I think they know it benefits them.

- Sure.

- It gets people riled up, as in our former president, you know, it's a good, but then it seems like they muddy the waters as well.

Like, okay, if you're a drag queen, that automatically means that you're a horrible person and that you are affecting our kids, affecting our children.

And you should be scared of that person.

And you know, there's a certain population that that resonates with and they just go crazy.

Luc, I can see you're ready.

(group laughing) - So those of you that don't know, I've been performing for at least 15 years, I probably have about eight or nine titles.

So I'm very offended by the whole drag queen situation.

Because I've met some amazing, I have some amazing sisters.

And when that was going around, I was just like, what is the problem, what happened?

- Especially individuals who are taking time out of their lives and schedules to educate children in this beautiful positive way.

And I think it really goes back to this idea that these legislators are weaponizing these issues to target people who they don't think have any political power and they're using harmful, dangerous rhetoric that's going to result in the death of individuals in our state.

I would like to believe, and I think the data would be on my side, that most people who live in Kansas don't live their lives wanting to hurt people who are just trying to live their lives.

What do you think about that?

(group laughing) - I mean, I think, you know, you guys have asked some logical questions.

You've talked about misinformation and I just think that the folks not only in Kansas but nationally who are pushing these laws have been repeatedly provided with accurate medical information and really don't care about it, you know?

And so I think it gets back to what Kevin said.

The question that I always ask is, if someone in power is targeting a tiny group of people without power who are widely misunderstood, they're trying to make other people afraid.

It's easy to scare people when they don't understand something that's a little different from themselves.

So you have to ask yourself the people in power, they have a lot of power.

And the people that they're targeting have very little power by any measurement.

And why is this a political tactic?

Who does this serve?

And I think the answers are pretty clear when you break it down that way.

And so I just think, you know, people have to be careful about who they elect.

- Absolutely, and I think it was brought up with this particular table that within the last five or six years, that the heat has really been turned up in terms of a fear factor with people of color and LGBTQ plus people.

And so we really have to be considerate of the people that we do elect.

- Yes.

- And get in the process when it comes to local and state and national elections.

It's not just enough to vote properly nationally.

It's what we do here.

- Locally, right here.

- That affects us.

- Absolutely.

Kevin Willmott, CJ Janovy, and Luc Bensimon, we thank you so very much for being a part of this very important discussion on "Inspire."

And we thank you for staying there with us.

It's been a pleasure getting to know each of you and you at home.

Speaking of getting to know you all, isn't that the way we should all do, get to know and take the time to learn and understand our fellow humans and their identity, culture and history?

This ties in with our last segment from Professor Haider-Markel, who will fill us in on the historical perspective of gender identification and the importance of taking the time to get to know and understand people.

(upbeat music) - It's my pleasure to welcome back Professor Don Haider-Markel, Political Science professor from the University of Kansas.

So you just gave us a wealth of information and we wanna continue this topic, this idea that, you know, there people are finding these things to believe on the internet and they're carrying that information into their attitudes and beliefs about, in particular the transgender population.

From a historical perspective, what kind of stereotypes originated about the LGBTQ plus population that we're really seeing carrying through in these harmful pieces of legislation in modern times?

- Well, I think in general, just this notion that focusing on somebody's sexuality makes them somehow oversexualized and therefore a potential threat to others.

So children in particular have been a focus for this you know, looking at public facilities like restrooms, et cetera, as a place that this threat might come into to occur.

But even amongst adults, there's sort of this sort of gay panic argument that goes around.

And if you maybe even remember back to 1998 in the Matthew Shepard case, this sort of notion that if I feel threatened by a person that has a different sexual orientation or gender identity from me, I am justified in attacking them.

And that being something that was supported in many ways going forward.

So it's not just children, it's adults, that my measure of violence against people that I feel threatened by or sexualized by is generally seen as okay.

So that's one of the stereotypes going forward, that these are somehow oversexualized people and they pose a threat to the rest of us.

There's also, I think a big part of this that I think putting in place is that, you know, prior to 2015, 2016, most of the American public didn't really have much familiarity with transgender people.

And you know, although there were some media, some popular culture representations of transgender people, most of those stories that we saw from the '70s, '80s and '90s, the transgender people were sort of broken people, or even gay and lesbian people were sort of broken people or somehow wrong.

And it wasn't until we might say the sort of "Will and Grace" effect took a hold in the 1990s that people became more familiar with this particular community, especially gays and lesbians, and began to feel sort of more comfortable with it.

So we call this sort of, it comes from what we call contact theory in social psychology where having contact with people or knowing someone who's part of this community makes us feel more comfortable.

And that can happen even when it's through popular culture, even if it's just a fictional character on television or in a book that this actually is called parasocial contact and can have the same effect as real world contact.

So with transgender people, most of us haven't had as much time or knowledge about this issue or even really understand what it is that we're talking about.

It's partly because transgender itself is an umbrella term that envelopes a whole subgroup of people that identify in different ways.

And it may not necessarily, so the people in that community are all necessarily a little bit different.

So this unfamiliarity even occurred within the gay and lesbian movement going all the way back to the Stonewall riots of 1969.

Those riots outside of outside the Stonewall Inn in New York City were actually started by transgender folks and mostly sustained by transgender folks.

But the gay and lesbian community really sort of focused on sexual orientation and the rights of gays and lesbians in particular, and kind of left transgender people behind all the way until we got into the 2000s.

- Thank you so much for shedding that light and thank you for listening.

This is very important.

It's been a pleasure having you, Doctor, and we thank you for coming as well.

We hope that you'll broaden your mind, broaden your perspective, and be inspired.

(upbeat music) - Kevin Willmott, CJ Janovy, Luc Bensimon, and Dr. Don Haider-Markel, thank you all so much for the impactful stories that you've shared with all of us today.

And it was an honor to have you all with us.

We can't tell you how much we appreciate you all and that is all that we have time for today.

If you would like to watch this program again and we hope that you will, or any KTWU program, you can do that online at watch.ktwu.org.

- And if you're so inspired to learn more about our amazing guests, find out what is coming up on future "Inspires" and get access to additional content, be sure to visit our website at www.ktwu.org/inspire.

- Inspiring women, inspiring kindness, respect, and taking the time to listen and learn about our fellow humans, inspiring you on KTWU.

Thank you for watching.

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