(inspiring music) - Coming up on, "Inspire," 2024 marks the 70th anniversary of the monumental court decision for Brown v. Board of Education.

We discuss the history, the commemoration, the importance of maintaining the legacy.

Stay with us.

(graphic buzzing) - [Announcer] "Inspire," is sponsored by the estate of Ray and Ann Goldsmith.

- [Announcer] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation.

and the Friends of KTWU.

We appreciate your financial support.

Thank you.

(inspiring music) - Hello and welcome to, "Inspire."

I'm excited to be here with my beautiful, "Inspire" sisters.

We got Betty Lou Pardue.

We've got the beautiful Amber Dickinson on the end, and we are so glad that you were here with us as well.

As we discuss one of the most impactful moments in civil rights history, the decision to strike down segregation in public schools and Brown versus Board of Education.

- This monumental decision, one of the greatest Supreme Court decisions of the 20th century, started the movement to desegregate housing, public accommodations and higher education institutions.

- It's a decision that will continue to impact future generations.

Here to discuss with us today the history and our continued fight for equality are Cheryl Brown Henderson, founding president of the Brown Foundation for Educational Equity, Excellence and Research who is joining us via Zoom.

Glenda Washington, co-chair of the 70th Anniversary Brown Coalition, and Dr. Beryl New, co-chair of the 70th Anniversary Brown Coalition.

Ladies, we are beyond excited and appreciative to have you here, and we're so glad you are here.

This is a discussion that we could take hours.

The history that is in our studio, and via Zoom with Cheryl.

This decision put Topeka on the map, but living history, Cheryl Brown Henderson, will you tell us about your family and how this impacted?

- Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on, "Inspire," and it always feels good to be among like-minded ladies.

And I certainly appreciate and wanna take a opportunity to thank Glenda and Beryl for the amazing job on keeping our community on point and commemorating the 70th anniversary.

It's hard to believe it's been 70 years.

I don't wanna admit that I was alive and well 70 years ago.

(participants laughing) but when people think about Brown v. Board, they often think it was something that just happened in a vacuum.

And those of us that lived this experience, Glenda and Beryl and those of you in the studio realized that it emerged out of a longstanding tradition among the African American community.

And that tradition is the realization that education.

Two things, education and owning property were the cornerstones of not only power, but of citizenship in this country.

Clearly illustrated by the early desegregation case in Boston, first one in the country, 1849, I mean, middle of 1800s, people were litigating, African Americans were around the issue of segregating schools.

For those of us in Kansas, and as I travel, I love sharing with people the story of Kansas because so many people dismiss our state.

But those of us that are native to this state, and those that are new to this state have come to realize very soon that Kansas is a very consequential place when it comes to civil rights.

Brown v. Board, of course, and pre-Brown v. Board with Bleeding Kansas and all of those issues.

But I think Kansas stood as a beacon for a lot of African Americans post Civil War.

They were recruited to come live in Kansas.

The promise of that property we spoke of the promise of education were key.

And people did come to Kansas for that reason.

The 14th Amendment though, to the Constitution was the game changer.

Well, not only for the people in Kansas, but African Americans in other parts of the country.

And I say that because the 14th Amendment really opened the door to our ability to push back against racial discrimination and segregation and Jim Crow laws.

And the 14th Amendment is a pivot for Brown v. Board of Education.

So the NAACP, my parents and all the other folks that they recruited were taking a stand for not just education, but for social justice.

I often tell people that Brown v. Board, public schools were the battle front, but society was in fact the target.

Brown really created a demand, and it was a reckoning for this nation, a reckoning about the racial issues that were going on.

Vernon Jordan, the former, and now deceased head of the Urban League, said of Brown that it was Black folks' Magna Carta.

And he meant by that, that it was our first opportunity that to really, and have due process in our favor when the court ruled as it did in Brown v. Board of Education, but quick little story.

Most people think that our family was in fact, central to Brown v. Board.

And I'm so pleased to say that we were part of a collective action.

Brown was like the civil rights movement.

It took many players, many years, many campaigns, and a lot of sacrifice.

So the Topeka case, to make a long story short, because I know we have much more to discuss, started with McKinley Burnett, a very courageous man, very committed man who was determined to make a difference in for African American.

So McKinley Burnett made a decision as president of the NAACP that Topeka was going to try one more time, the Topeka NAACP to litigate, litigate this issue of segregation of public schools.

We have to realize though, that that decision he made came on the heels of 11 school desegregation cases in the state of Kansas, which is what makes me so proud of being a Kansan as I traveled the country.

People don't realize how active African Americans were once they came to Kansas.

They weren't gonna sit around and put up with, if you will, after the sacrifice they made to get here with their children having lesser opportunity because of segregated schools.

So as early as the 1800s, 1881, to be exact, was the first Kansas school desegregation case, Tinnon versus the Ottawa School Board.

So from 1881 to 1949, 11 cases, three cases in Topeka, 1903 was the Reynolds case.

Reynolds versus the Board of Education of Topeka.

1929, I've got it written down, Wright versus the Board of Education of Topeka.

And then in 1941, Graham versus the Board of Education of Topeka.

So Brown v. Board Topeka rests on the shoulders of all of those cases that came before.

And in particular the three cases in Topeka.

But McKinney Burnett was somebody I really wish I had known.

I did know his wife and know his son, but I wish I had known him because this was the man that sacrificed his vacation days to attend school board meetings, to be on the public comment section, so he could talk about the issue of convincing Topeka Public Schools to simply choose to integrate the elementary schools.

Kansas law did not require segregated schools.

It permitted cities of a certain size like Topeka, Kansas City, Wichita, to segregate, but only their elementary schools.

So when he didn't succeed, he gave him a caution, my understanding, the last board meeting in the spring of 1950, he stood up and said, you have had two years he prepared for this because he'd been trying for two years.

So over the summer, he sat down with Charles Scott, John Scott, Charles Bledsoe, and Lucinda Todd came up a strategy.

They needed their parents who would be the plaintiffs in the case they were putting together.

That's where my family comes into play.

So throughout that summer, they recruited Charles Scott and my father had grown up together.

So he called on the friendship they had when they came to our home asking dad if he would be willing to join the roster of litigants they were putting together.

And I laughed because my mother, it could have been all women, but my mother was expecting her favorite child.

(all laughing) And she was not part of the group of women who had already signed on.

So my father's only questioned before I end this is whether or not there would be more dads that would be standing up as litigants.

They were homemakers, married women.

These were not single parents, they were married women.

And my father was the 10th person to sign on.

So much like the internet and other things would have you believe it was not something he did on his own, nor did he initiate this.

So once he signed on and that the fall of 1950, when they were instructed to locate a white school, try to enroll their child or children in those schools and come back and report to the NAACP.

The first thing dad noticed when he attended the meeting, the strategy session, was that he ended up being the only father in the room.

And of course we think that's why it ended up being named for him, but they were instructed by the NAACP to locate a white school and then attempt that the process of enrolling their children in the school.

I wanna make that point because in the companion cases that were consolidated with Brown, once it was appealed to the Supreme Court, segregation was very overt.

We lived in integrated neighborhoods in Kansas, so the African American children lived in the neighborhoods of the white schools that they couldn't attend.

So, we weren't experiencing the kind of ZIP code segregation that we talk about now when they come to public schools.

But the African American parents were not, what's the word?

It was not monolithic.

They were not all in agreement that this was the right step to take because Monroe, McKinley, Buchanan, Washington.

The four segregated African American schools were considered the pillar of the African American community.

They were lovely brick buildings.

The teachers were committed so much so they would come to your home on the weekend if you weren't understanding certain subjects.

It's been said that the African American teachers in those four schools collectively held more advanced degrees, more advanced college degrees than their white counterparts.

So kids were getting that stellar education.

We were not talking about quality or buildings or transportation, we were talking about segregation per se.

Was it in fact constitutional to segregate solely on the basis of race with all things being equal.

But the fact that my ended up being named for that case, or his name as the lead plaintiff, we told ladies it was largely because of gender.

And it certainly that caused lot of people to chuckle.

But when we look at the roster of plaintiffs, there are all those lovely women with their children and their kids, Oliver Brown, with his daughter, Linda.

So we really do believe that, not alphabet, but gender is the reason dad ended up being the lead plaintiff.

Darlene Brown, his fellow plaintiff would've been alphabetically first just to clear up some of the misnomers that are out there.

So we are no less proud that we ended up being part of such a monumental game changer for this nation because Brown v. Board put the issue of race squarely on the national agenda.

We could no longer see ourselves as the United States of denial because there was an awful lot of denial going on as to the experiences of African American people.

And education being the cornerstone of our democracy.

There was no way African American parents were gonna put up with.

So I believe Brown v. Board was a convergence of frustration and determination.

There's the frustration of tax supported schools that your children were not permitted to attend solely on the basis of race.

The determination, to change that condition.

And that's exactly what happened.

And we're very proud of that.

- I love hearing all of this history, this behind the scenes that you don't get in a textbook.

So all of this is very rich.

Now I want to talk to Dr. New, because you are a pillar in the community of Topeka and what you've done for education has been phenomenal.

I want to know how Brown impacted you in terms of your growing up here in this area and then becoming the rock star that you are when it comes to being a teacher, administrator, just who you are in this community to us.

- Well, as Cheryl was talking and laying out the timeline, I was thinking about my own experiences here in Topeka.

I did not move to Topeka with my family until 1961.

So I didn't have a pre-Brown experience or a close post-Brown experience, but I was blessed to attend Monroe Elementary School.

And at that time, due to the way our neighborhood was composed, then the majority of the students there were African American.

I remember one white family and one Mexican family.

Could have been more, but that's what I recall.

But we had all Black teachers, we had a Black principal, and they were so deeply invested in our success that if we didn't know our times tables, we'd sit in the classroom during lunchtime or recess.

(all laughing) Because they wanted to make sure that we not only were able to progress through a grade level, but excel in our academics.

Ms. Theresa Counts was my fourth grade teacher, and I think fifth as well.

She has remained my favorite teacher all my life.

- [Danielle] Aw.

- But she was one who taught us, "The Blue Danube."

- [Danielle] Oh, wow.

- And all three verses of the, what we call the Black national anthem, "Lift Every Voice and Sing."

And that's why to this day I can sing it without any paper prompt.

(all laughing) But just that quality of education and that high expectation that I received there really set me on pace to want to be able to pass on to future students.

In fact, when I was at Topeka High School, Paul Adams, the late Paul Adams and I, he taught history, I taught literature, and we didn't have African American either.

And so we came together, developed our own curriculum, and we were able after that, to teach African American literature and history.

And we taught it in a way that was parallel because much of the history matches the timeline for the literature.

And so, eventually they bought a textbook.

But until then, we taught what we had created.

- And this is why I'm saying that you are such the rock star that you are to be able to create something that will allow kids in our community to be able to know the impact of Brown and the impact of our history, which should be 365 days a year.

May I say that?

Thank you very much.

And I appreciate that compliment.

But I must say, I think it was the importance that was vested in me from my own experiences, especially at Monroe School, that made me want to make sure others had those same opportunities.

- Absolutely.

Cheryl Brown Henderson, Glenda Washington and Dr. Beryl, what an incredible time that we've had with you.

And it's not ending because we have part two to talk about after we take a brief break.

(upbeat music) So when we return, we are going to continue with these beautiful women along with LeTiffany Obozele, KNEA staff attorney to discuss Brown versus Board of Education and what it means for our younger generation.

So, please stay with us.

- And we're back with Cheryl Brown Henderson, Dr. Beryl New, and Glenda Washington here to discuss events associated in the community with the 70th anniversary of Brown versus Board.

So, can you tell us a little bit about what we can expect event-wise?

- Wow, we have so many things going on.

We collaborated with the Black Collective.

The Black Collective is an organization here in the community that they're new, but they're moving forward and bringing our stories forward.

And so we collaborated with them to put together a community calendar of all Black events.

And so what we have are a number of things that are going on throughout the community produced by several different organizations.

And we decided, rather than us doing it all ourselves, maybe we look at what is out there and capture that and share that with the community.

So we start off with the Black Collective doing what they call a Bridge Walk, rededicating the Nick Charles and the Lucinda Todd Bridges.

And that'll be on May 4th.

That is going to be an exciting piece for us.

They are also working on, they like to do a lot of walking.

(all laughing) Another walk later on that month.

But I'd like to call your attention to the calendar.

I'll send you to the www.black-collective.org, and we have a calendar there, so you can pull that calendar up and see what's going on any given day of the week.

So, just to highlight a few things.

Vanessa German, you might have heard of Vanessa.

She is putting together an exhibit over at the Blitt Gallery.

So, that'll be coming up as well.

And then the highlight we think is going to be, "Now Let Me Fly."

The play that we commissioned for the 50th anniversary.

We are redoing that bigger, brighter, and better.

- Oh yes.

- I think Cheryl knows the story better than I, but if, Cheryl, if I could ask you to talk through what the, "Now Let Me Fly," the whole summary of.

- Sure, sure.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, the 70th Anniversary Brown Coalition, we started December of 2023, and the idea was to bring together community organizations and individual and businesses that were looking to commemorate Brown and provide an umbrella for that.

So as Beryl was pointed out, some of the partners within the collective have really emerged in helping develop calendars and other additional programs.

But also when I finish with this, go back to her, let her talk about the event that the coalition has in fact sponsored.

But, "Now Let Me Fly," was commissioned by Washburn University for the 50th anniversary.

And some of you may have been there that night at TPAC with 2200 people.

It was just amazing.

The late Yolanda King was in the cast and as well as other stage and screen personalities.

But, "Now Let Me Fly," was written by Marcia Cebulska.

her husband Tom Prasch is on faculty there at Washburn this year be directed by Darren Canady.

an amazing playwright in his own right.

But the play is a chronicle.

It takes you through each of the communities that where cases emerged from that could then bind into Brown v. Board of Education.

So we get to go inside of the Delaware community, the Virginia community, the Washington, DC community, the South Carolina community, and of course the Topeka community.

So the people could really have an intimate look at what the families and the attorneys and the people on the ground encountered on the way to becoming part of these cases.

So, I think it's gonna be amazing.

We're having a couple of featured cast members that we're very proud of from the own television network series, "Greenleaf," which was about a mega church, but two of the cast will be part of the play.

Deborah Joy Winans and Jason Dirden.

I have to pronounce his name.

So, I think it's gonna be amazing, live music.

Kevin Wilmott will be our host and there'll be other cast members to announce later on.

But we're excited about that because this play is one you can come to and walk out with a greater sense of the collective action that Brown represents.

- And that's so important.

Because we cannot lose this history and there are so many, like, we're gonna be speaking with LeTiffany and prior to us going on, we were talking, this is post.

I mean, she was not alive during all this.

And what is the importance of this history?

Keeping it alive, keeping people knowing about it?

- We feel that everyone is the keeper of the history.

And so what we're doing is we're sharing it.

This is seen differently through the youth, and we've gotta get them excited about the history that they are now the keepers of.

We've gotta have them tell the story.

It's not just us telling the story.

A bunch of old ladies (Danielle laughing) telling the story of Brown versus Board.

We want them to be telling the story of Brown versus Board.

So we hope in the future that we can create docents that will walk through, young docents, that will walk through the Brown Park Service and tell that story.

Young people participating in plays and events and activities around the communities, so that they can kinda live it, feel it, and look at what their benefits are, what benefits they're receiving as a result of us or people before us having fought that thought for them.

And then one thing that we are really excited of is the Brown versus Board homecoming.

Homecoming is gonna be new this year.

It's the first time we've done this.

And Beryl is very intricately involved in the homecoming, so I'm gonna toss it over.

(all laughing) - Well, just real quickly, it's gonna be May 18th that Saturday and come, there'll be free food, there'll be a lot of fellowship.

Individuals who attended any of the four segregated schools are going to be coming with their families.

Many people are coming from out of Topeka.

Some I think maybe the oldest who's registered is in his late 80s.

And so it's gonna be an exciting time just to be together and also learn from those who really lived this experience.

- [Betty Lou] And I hope you record it.

- [Cheryl] Let me add to that.

- We're gonna record it.

Yeah, go ahead.

- May I add to that?

I'm sorry.

I wanted to go ahead and let the group know that this is something that rest on the shoulders of people.

For 40 years, there was a group called the Back Home Reunion that came back Topeka every third year.

And they were the students that had attended the four segregated schools.

So, the Homecoming is a contemporary back home reunion, if you will.

My mother had been involved in that for a decades.

Jack Alexander, Theresa Count, some of the other names that I can't remember that you would certainly know.

But it was amazing.

I was so fortunate to attend some of those back home reunion events.

When I first started attending in my 20s with my mom, some of the teachers were still around and the truant officer, I can't remember his name now, was just amazing to watch the family atmosphere because a lot of us that went to school post Brown v. Board didn't have that experience.

So, I just wanted you all to know that there's nothing new under the sun in many ways.

And a lot of what we do now does rest on the shoulders of others.

I'll add to that, but I taught at Monroe School.

Our families had a three generational relationship at Monroe.

In 1926 when the current building was new, my mother was a first grader there.

They did not have kindergarten.

So the African American students attended first grade through eighth grade at elementary school, integrated junior high, and then integrated high school.

So she was in the first class at Monroe School.

And then after married dad and my sisters Linda and Teri, were both students at Monroe School.

And when they became adults, my sister Linda's children were students at Monroe School.

And when I finished college in 1972, I became a teacher at Monroe School.

And then in 2004, actually 2009 when we started the project of creating the national park and then moved back into the building in 2004.

I couldn't believe that the generational relationship we've had with that one building, it's like a member of the family, Monroe School.

- Oh, sure.

- So, I just wanted to add that.

Mom is now 102, she'll be 103, May 7th.

And so I'm hoping that although she won't be attending, I'm hoping that in some of the interviews that are going on with the television and newspaper locally, that she'll be able to share her Monroe school story because she even remembers a little song they would sing in the morning to kind of get their day started.

So I think she has some interesting stories to tell about that.

And the one picture I'll share with Glenda and Beryl and others down the road.

It's a picture of I think I'm maybe 22 years old, 1974, standing in front of the building with my sixth grade class for the 20th anniversary of Brown v. Board.

We were in the midway section of the Topeka Capital Journal with that photo.

And they laugh about it now, but if somebody had come to me in 1972, '74 when I was at Monroe and said, you're gonna be back in this building years later, it's gonna be a national park that you would've worked for 14 plus years to create, and you're gonna be standing proud in front of what was accomplished.

I wouldn't have believed them.

So you never know where life will lead you, and you'll never know how things come full circle.

- Well, I invite you all to go to this website, take a look at all of the activities.

We're just giving you a couple of highlights, right?

But take a look at all the activities that we have planned for the celebration.

It is not just Beryl and I, the entire community is wrapped up in it.

And so if you, you know, last night we were over at KU, they did a part of the celebration and they're gonna be at the Brown site tonight talking about doing a panel discussion, a Q&A.

So they're all wrapped up in it as well.

And we are making sure that we touch base with the other plaintiffs in the case, the other communities that were involved in the case.

- Okay.

- We'll be sharing the play across the country, with them.

- So, streaming - Streaming, live streaming the play.

The people will gather in Carolina and Virginia and Delaware and DC and here and wherever else they may wanna join in.

But everybody will see the play and have an opportunity to take a look at how we depict them and the challenges that they dealt with as well.

So we invite you all to join us as we share Brown versus Board again with the world.

(upbeat music) - Bottom line is that Brown lives forever.

- Oh yeah.

- [Danielle] And we're keeping it alive.

- Yes, we are.

- For many, many generations to come.

So Cheryl Brown Henderson, Glenda Washington, Dr. Beryl New what an honor it is to have you all with us today.

Thank you for being on, "Inspire."

We are going to take a quick break.

When we come back, we're going to have LeTiffany Obozele and continue with Cheryl Brown Henderson as we talk about the impact that Brown has had on young people right here on, "Inspire."

So, please stay with us.

(upbeat music) - And we're back with Cheryl Brown Henderson.

And it's with great pleasure.

I introduce LeTiffany Obozele, KNEA staff attorney who also happens to be our host for KTWU's community affairs series, "IGI."

(Danielle applauding) It's so great to have you both here to continue this phenomenal discussion.

We're learning so much.

For example, we learned as Mrs. Brown Henderson told us, there is a much richer history and there's much more context that is a part of the Brown versus Board discussion.

However, what we tend to see when we look at things like textbooks that are used in our public schools, they're very sterilized.

So when you were growing up and learning about these kinds of things, what were you learning about Brown versus Board?

- So I'm not originally from Kansas.

I actually grew up in Dumfries, Virginia.

And my family lives now in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

And so when I was growing up, I feel like I got a very basic education about Brown v. Board.

I just learned that it was the case that desegregated schools and that quite honestly, that that's what made everything happen.

Separate was not equal.

And so, right?

That's basically what I learned.

And I think real lessons probably came from my parents.

I always knew that you were supposed to keep your eyes on the prize and that education was the key to life.

I have a Nigerian dad and I have a Southern Black mom, and so education was always the key.

But in school, I think that's pretty much all I learned.

It just is a really important case.

- Right, so when you came to Kansas and you actually have been down to... - Yeah, yeah, yes.

- [Betty Lou] Okay, so explain that please.

- So, then I came to Kansas and I ended up in Topeka, Kansas.

And obviously Topeka has a very rich history and has very unique ties to that Brown case.

And they have a museum here, the Brown v. Board of Education Museum.

And so it wasn't until I went to the Brown v. Board of Education Museum that I learned that there was so much more to the case.

That it wasn't just about a desegregation and it wasn't about just that separate can never be equal.

That there were people fighting.

That that case didn't even actually start to, it was just the beginning.

It wasn't some pretty easy decision that made everything happen.

People had to put in time and energy and fight.

It was just the beginning to make other cases and other things and implement it.

And it didn't even get implemented everywhere.

I went to Fort Scott and I learned about The Little Rock Nine at the Lowell Milken Unsung Heroes Museum.

And so just to learn that there's so much more than I guess, what's told to you in school, it sounds nice and easy to hear that.

One case made everything happen, but like much of life one thing rarely is the thing that makes everything happen.

- Cheryl, I wanna bring you back in because a lot of people, you know, we come from a microwave society, so they think, "Oh, the decision happened, everything was good."

And they lived happily ever after.

Well, it wasn't that easy.

Talk about how the rollout was in terms of the decision was made.

I'm sure there was a lot of pushback from a lot of states.

Talk about specifically here in Topeka.

What was the impact of that decision here and how was life for you and your family after that decision?

- Well, you're absolutely right that once the Earl Warren announced on May 17th, that the court had ruled unanimously that it was unconstitutional to segregate schools on the basis of race.

That it really was, sent shockwaves throughout the communities of segregationists.

Not simply in the South, but in other parts of the country where people did believe that races should be kept separately.

So you are absolutely right.

The pushback was swift and it was immediate and it hasn't stopped.

So the first thing of note that happened before I talk about the personal side in Topeka was that inside of three years, the United States Congress, about 11 Southern elected officials in the House and the Senate band together, and wrote a document that engendered massive resistance in the South to Brown v. Board of Education.

Basically it was called the Southern Manifesto.

And it's something that I encourage people to go online and read the document because Congress actually said, those folks in Congress that they were gonna do everything in their power to overturn Brown v. Board.

And they also went on to say that any school district in the South planning to defy the court's decision that they would support them.

The state of Virginia, the governor, led a massive resistance effort to roll out vouchers, sound familiar, and other ways to support white parents not putting their kids in schools with African American children.

It was major.

And I think that all of the attempts to implement Brown after 1955 when the court issued its edict of with all deliberate speed.

All of those attempts were in my view destined to fail.

Because I think Supreme Court decisions I've learned, and I think people are learning that now and watching what's happened lately are simply beginning of a conversation.

The people that win are happy and they're talking about success and implementation.

The people that lose are very busy looking at ways to block, subvert and not comply.

And Brown v. Board is no exception.

So it shouldn't be surprising that the last full desegregation court ordered case after Brown, finally resolved was 2017 In Cleveland, Mississippi.

- Wow.

- So, this was not something that people were segregationists in particular, and those that did not believe in racial integration.

This was not something they were going to sit idly by and they haven't stopped.

And we have to make sure that we stay aware of the fact.

Let's not be fooled into thinking that all is well.

All is not well.

And I think because that generational belief and the belief system that has been perpetuated with respect to race and integration.

Now in terms of Topeka, Topeka complied immediately.

May, the court ruled, read the opinion in the fall of 1954, African American children and white children began going to school together because we already lived in neighborhoods together.

Our neighbors would go one way, we'd go the other way.

So it was kind of a no brainer here in Topeka.

The other thing that happened in Topeka was the integration of some of the African American teachers into the formerly white schools.

So for one year, principals in Topeka, white principals were directed that if you have an African American teacher in your building, you are to call every white parent at that grade level to get their consent to have their child taught by a Black teacher.

- Wow.

- Well, no one said no.

So it was a policy that was dropped whether immediately.

But in the spring of '53, as Brown was going through the courts, the superintendent of Topeka Public Schools, and we have a copy of the actual letter, sent letters to the African American teachers, three years or fewer of teaching, telling them that if the plaintiffs succeed, we will not renew your contract because we do not believe there'll be enough white parents wanting you as teachers.

So, there was always glimmers of the fact that this was going to be a long standing battle.

We never really talk about the elephant in the room.

And the elephant in the room is why was this happening in the first place?

It was happening because the idea of segregating substandard facilities, not providing school buses and not providing new resources, putting African American children in rundown buildings, et cetera, it was to create a built in disadvantage, right?

So, that we wouldn't have a level playing field.

We wouldn't have races of people competing equally.

And unfortunately in many instances that's still the case.

So in trying to implement Brown with busing and magnet schools and all the different iterations.

And the reason none of them had been long lasting is because that sense of creating disadvantage, it still exists among us.

It breaks my heart that something as important as education is fought over and seen as a way to subjugate entire groups of people.

- Yeah, there is so much more.

You guys, I hope that you have been inspired to learn more about this.

We thank you so much, Cheryl Brown Henderson and LeTiffany Obozele.

I mean, this is the wisdom of the two of you, and of course Dr. Beryl New and- - [Amber] And Glenda.

- Yeah, and Glenda.

- [Amber] And Glenda Washington.

- But it's just like, "Oh my gosh."

(upbeat music) More discussion coming up on, "Inspire."

So, we encourage you to stay with us.

There's just so much more, so please don't go away.

(upbeat music) - And we're back with Cheryl Brown Henderson and LeTiffany Obozele talking about the 70th anniversary of Brown versus Board.

So we have what seems to be two schools of thought in terms of Black progress in the United States.

You have one school of thought, which is look how far Black and Brown people have come.

And then you have the more realistic perspective, which is there is so much further to go.

And so much of that progression is going to depend on participation of younger people.

So, how can we engage young people in this discussion to keep propelling this history forward and to keep pushing for progress?

- Well, I think it, what you're doing here is so wonderful.

I think it's so important for people to be interested, to be curious and to learn from history.

I think people who are interested in books need to read books.

People who like TV, need to watch TV.

I think we need to get to listen and learn from our living history.

Like people like Cheryl Brown Henderson and Glenda and Dr. Beryl New who came on here today because by taking the opportunity to learn about history, we avoid mistakes.

We learn that it's deeper and richer than anybody's ever gonna take the time to tell us.

Just in schools, just in books sometimes, living history is such a beautiful thing.

We need to go on field trips.

Go to the Brown v. Board of Education Museum.

There's a Black History Museum, the Kansas African American Museum in Wichita.

There's the Negro Leagues Baseball museum, right?

There's just so many places you can go.

There's the Lowell Milken Museum in Fort Scott.

There's so much history people can go to.

I just watched a fun story on Disney+, "Iwaju," and it talks about Lagos, Nigeria.

And it gave me a vehicle to be able to have more conversations with my dad about Nigeria.

And so making things accessible to people, so that they can have those conversations so that we can fly play Glenda was talking about for the kiddos are interested in theater.

You can't just do it in one way.

One person can't be the person that has everything.

You have to make it accessible to all kinds of different types of people.

And because we're all multifaceted and we all learn in different kinds of ways.

So making it accessible in a bunch of different sources of medium in ways is how you pass the history on, because every little piece is gonna go on in a different way for different kinds of people and different kinds of interests.

- Cheryl, I need to bring you in here.

Just hearing LeTiffany say all that, how does that make you feel?

- Well, I agree with her.

I think that every generation has a movement that can be used as an object lesson.

And the example I'll give you is what's going on right now.

In the wake of the killing of George Floyd, we saw global activism, we saw young people marching.

It was reminiscent of the civil rights movement.

They were organizing to make a difference.

But sadly, at the end of that activism, the pushback that we're always familiar with is what we're now in the middle of.

And I think that too is an object lesson for young people.

So as governors and legislatures and school districts are seeking to sanitize history and to remove textbooks and to disallow certain subjects being discussed openly in classrooms.

I think that that's another way, another reason, another object lesson that students and young people can organize around.

We can talk about history, but it's always more impactful when you have an example of what it is you're trying to share.

So I think using whatever's going on currently as a way to share how this resembles, what we went through on the way to what children have experienced.

Now, I agree with her that we've come a long way.

We talk about that all the time.

But again, we never talk about it in a balanced way.

We need to talk about the fact that we need to make sure that white communities in our country are also brought along.

It's one thing to talk about African Americans now have at least some legal options when it comes to fighting the housing discrimination or employment discrimination or more opportunities and employment and all of that.

But it also requires that there be balance and understanding on both sides.

And I encourage, when I speak to groups, especially groups of educators, I encourage 'em to make certain that they're using their platform as teachers to engage in multicultural education.

Meaning making sure that we are dealing with the points of origin of our white students the same way we deal with the points of origin for our African American students.

We should also be talking about the settlement of this nation and talking about immigrants through Ellis Island and talking about the experiences of the Irish and the Polish and religious persecution of the Catholics.

And I think until we get a full understanding that every group that migrated this country.

We're a country of immigrants.

And as immigrants, the each group, they struggled on the way to overcoming.

And I think it would make a big difference.

Because right now, when you focus solely on one group, whether it's the, Latino, Latinx community, whether you are focusing solely on the Asian experience or solely on the African American experience, without that balance, you create a sense among one group that, "Oh, we've always been on top."

The privilege that we believe we have is inherent because it's always been that way.

We it hasn't been.

So, it's just really important to talk about this in a balanced way.

And that's kind of my current mission right now.

That and elevating the profession of teaching, I'm on that mission as well.

- And to add to what Cheryl said, I think she's absolutely 100% right.

We have all these community events here in Topeka, and I think that's something that they're doing well.

And I think it's so important for people to know that it's everybody should be educating themselves.

We have access to all these different wonderful people.

We have all this access to an ability to educate and inform yourself.

It shouldn't be on the people who look a certain way to have to educate other people.

When people have such easy access to educate themselves.

If you're curious about something, be curious, have an open mind, have an open heart, and don't rely on somebody else to educate you on why you could be potentially hurting them when you can educate yourself.

- And it's okay to make mistakes in these conversations.

- Yes, it is, it is.

- And I think that in particular, members of the white community, the gut reaction to be defensive prevents important progressive conversations from taking place.

So, being unafraid to make mistakes or apologize when you do make a mistake and learn and grow is such a fundamental part of this progression.

- Difficult conversations, but conversations that need to be had none the less.

And that's how we as a people progress.

- Right.

- All people.

That's how we progress.

Cheryl, you wanted to say something?

- I do, because years ago, I did an in-service in Rhinelander, Wisconsin, which is the middle of nowhere like the Yukon.

And there were like 300 community college educators.

I was the only person of color in the room.

When I took the stage, I made this pronounced when I said, "Is there diversity in this room?"

You could have heard a pin drop.

But then I said, no, this room is full of diversity.

Let's go around the room right now and identify the diversity of the room.

Where we discovered where they were Polish descendants, German descendants, Irish descendants, Italian descendants, Scandinavian descendants.

Then what we did is we broke down the stereotypes from each of those groups in every single group as various stereotypes about the group.

I guess my point is that regardless of the complexion of the people in the room, we need to deal with the reality that there's diversity and ethnic diversity.

I mean, race is a social construct, so we're always really talking about ethnic diversity.

But I think that needs to always be our starting point.

So there's no need for apologies, there's a need for feelings of guilt there.

There's simply a need for people to be better informed about themselves because there's an assumption often among white youth in particular that you know that there's nothing to know.

Now there's everything to know.

- Right.

- And unfortunately, they're not nearly as well informed.

If they were, I believe it would be easier for all of us to feel more connected as citizens of this country.

- I feel so honored to have been in this conversation with just some amazing women today.

Cheryl Brown Henderson, what an honor to actually get to talk to you.

I can't wait to actually meet you and just hug your neck and say thank you- - [Betty Lou] Yeah, thank you - For the contributions that you and your family have made to my life, LeTiffany Obozele, also to Dr. Beryl New, also to Glenda Washington and to the discussions that we've had.

This has been a very enriching conversation that I hope that we can continue for many more weeks and months and years to come, 'cause we're just getting started when it comes to having these discussions.

So, we're going to take a break.

When we come back, we'll wrap it up.

And thank you for joining us on, "Inspire."

(upbeat music) Amber and Betty Lou, this was an amazing discussion.

What were your takeaways from today's chat?

- Well, it was an incredible honor to listen to these stories.

And from an educator's perspective, it was a gift that I can turn around and pass to my students because you have resources at your disposal in terms of literature and books and things like that.

But when you have someone who is living history telling you this is what things were like.

You have to listen to that.

And then it is my responsibility to report on that appropriately because people need to hear these stories for what they are and face the realities of 70 years ago is really doesn't matter in this conversation because the challenges that we are experiencing in this country with race relations, it's not any better.

- Right, right.

And I do wanna bring up a point though, that Glenda Washington was saying, and there's that was that everybody is invited.

And all of these events that are taking place to commemorate the 70th anniversary are all free.

And she wanted everybody to know you're all invited.

And I think we should all take advantage of that to make it a learning opportunity and to ask them questions.

And like to your point, this is living history.

These people are still among us.

We need to learn from it.

And those in younger generations need to definitely learn about it.

- This was a great episode, but it was a challenging episode because again, I'm at that crux of like, look at where they've come, but look what needs to be done.

And there's major frustration with where I feel we are in terms of the country and some of the divisiveness going on between the different people groups.

And so I don't want us to get back to where we were.

And I think if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it.

- Repeat it.

- And so it's incumbent upon people to know our real history, not the sanitized versions, and to make sure that we're doing something proactively to make sure that we're not going backwards and that we're always moving forward.

- Well, like LeTiffany said, educate yourself.

- Yes.

- Don't expect someone else to do it for you.

- [Danielle] Exactly.

- I wanna hear about that quote that you were talking about, okay.

- Oh, I was talking about an interview with, I was watching with Amelia Boynton, who was of course a major figure in Bloody Sunday who was physically assaulted by the police to the point, I mean they almost killed her.

And there is a sort of infamous quote by the sheriff where someone said, you need to call an ambulance.

And the sheriff said, well if there's someone over there dying, then let the buzzards get them.

And Amelia Boynton in this interview said she had a message for young people, which was to get the word I can't say on television, off our shoulders and get to work.

And I think that was beautiful.

I wanna say also Amelia Boynton actually attended that sheriff's funeral, which I think is profound.

- Right, right, the forgiveness.

- So much to be said.

- [Amber] That's right.

- [Betty Lou] Definitely.

- [Amber] That's right.

- And so much to be done.

- And unfortunately that is all the time we have for today.

I wanna thank the powerhouse women that joined us today.

Cheryl Brown Henderson, Glenda Washington, Dr. Beryl New and LeTiffany Obozele.

Don't forget, you can watch this program again at watch.ktwu.org - And if you are so inspired to learn more, which we hope you are about our guests in the history, to find out what's coming up on future shows, visit our website, www.ktw.org/inspire.

- Inspiring women, inspiring impact, passion, and history that we must never forget.

Inspiring you on KTWU.

Thank you for watching.

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