(bright upbeat music) - Over 300,000 Kansas families earn just around $20,000 a year, putting them in a crippling state of financial distress.

What impact does economic despair have on people, families, and communities?

Join us for a special two-part series, examining this issue on "Inspire."

(logo chimes and crackles) "Inspire" is sponsored by the estate of Ray and Ann Goldsmith.

- [Presenter] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation and- (bright upbeat music) - Friends of KTWU.

We appreciate your financial support, thank you.

(upbeat music continues) (bright energetic music) (energetic music continues) Hello and welcome to "Inspire."

I'm thrilled to be here with my incredible Inspire sisters, Danielle Norwood, Amber Dickinson, and somebody that you're about to meet in just a little bit.

Amber is pulling double duty today as both a host and a guest.

Most of us have moments in life when we worry about our finances, but what happens when financial stress becomes something more?

Today we discuss the concept of economic despair, what the term means, and how it's impacting people right here in the Sunflower State.

- The toll that financial struggles take on people and their families is not just about struggling to pay bills or putting food on the table.

People living around the poverty level are in danger of suffering in a wide variety of ways that we may not even realize.

- Living in a constant state of economic despair has negative impacts on mental and physical health, including substance abuse issues, depression and anxiety, and instances of self-harm.

Here today to talk to us about the topic of economic despair is Carrie Higgins, Housing Services Division Director for the City of Topeka.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

- Thank you for having me.

- Sure, so what we want to talk about today is it goes beyond the idea of just not having enough money.

It moves into the territory of what happens when you are so burdened financially that you're moving into this state of economic despair.

And we know a good chunk of people in the state of Kansas are living in a precarious financial state, is that accurate?

- Yes, that is accurate.

We see a large number of individuals who are struggling.

They may be struggling and still housed, they may be struggling and homeless.

- And, you know, we mentioned the salary, 20,000 a year, that is so hard for a lot of people to even come by.

But if you don't have money, what can you do?

- Correct, and think about the cost of living, rent has gone up, but wages have not.

So think of a single mom who is working full-time, but making $12 an hour, that is about 24 grand a year.

That is not enough to pay rent and pay all the other bills and support a family.

- And childcare.

Childcare costs- - Yes.

- have just skyrocketed.

- Yes.

- Do we have an idea, like what the numbers are of like a percentage of Kansans who are living in economic despair?

- I don't know offhand what those numbers are.

I would guess that it is a larger percentage than most of us would expect.

- Sure, and we have some percentages that we know, right?

We understand what the federal poverty line is, which is around 30,000.

We know that we've got 20 to 30% of Kansans living under that poverty line.

But when we expand that definition of economic despair to go beyond poverty, because poverty is of course something we measure.

But some of us that are hovering in that economic position where you're maybe solid in how poor you are, but you can't move up to the next level, right?

And so you're constantly in this state of, "Well, we're barely making it," or, you know, "one month we're paying water, "one month we're paying electricity," those kinds of things.

But what we're really looking at are people who are stuck in a financial position and they just can't get to that next level.

And that's an overwhelming amount of Kansans.

- Yes, that is.

And it affects the community, it affects the individuals, it affects mental health.

It affects so many things besides just them being stuck at that level.

- Mm-hmm, you touched on mental health.

- Mm-hmm.

- The statistics are staggering, the number of people who are in such despair, they consider or carry through suicide.

- Mm-hmm.

Well, I think that those individuals that are struggling, they're in economic distress, they are maybe living paycheck to paycheck.

And one thing, any one extra thing, whether it's car tags or a hospital bill or something, puts them over the edge.

And then there's, like you said, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.

It's paying the water bill this month and next month, maybe the gas bill.

That's overwhelming, that puts you in a place of crisis.

And especially when you're stuck in that place and it's really hard to get out of it, people become desperate and they turn to coping mechanisms like substance abuse or other things.

- And just to really clarify, you know, I think everyone has found themselves at some point in a position where they're not sure what they're gonna do financially.

And this really goes beyond that.

This really, you know, most of us when we get in that position, we say, "Well, I'll just wait till my paycheck," or, "I'll just ride out these next couple weeks," or, "I'll borrow this money here."

- Right.

- But people living in this state of despair, those options just aren't available.

- Yes.

- And so when you force someone into the position of having no help and having no resources and having no way to get out of that desperate situation, what are some common coping mechanisms we see people turning to to alleviate what they're experiencing?

- It's often substance abuse, especially if there is mental health issues along with it.

They might not have medical insurance to be able to go get mental health services, or there's often a wait list to get into it.

So what's more easily readily available: substances.

- Exactly, I read something that was disturbing to me.

It said that 50% of all people in the state of Kansas who have been told by a medical professional that they need mental health assistance cannot afford to get that.

- Right.

- So we're really in a tough situation for sure.

- So can anything be done about that?

- There are some programs out there, like we have a health access program that connects individuals who kind of fall in a gap.

Maybe they don't qualify for Medicaid, but they could qualify for that program.

It's tricky because when you're already in that situation and you're overwhelmed and in crisis, sometimes the hoops you have to jump through make it difficult for someone to figure out what resources are available and then take those steps to get that help.

- Well, and it's about communication too, because a lot of people who are already in a crisis situation wouldn't know to reach out to you in the first place.

- Exactly.

- And let's talk about actual people, because sometimes we get hung up on numbers and we forget that there are actual people attached to these numbers.

And I want to talk about that because there are people who are dealing with situations even now, and especially as we come into the holiday season, you know, it's one of the toughest times, and the holidays are tough anyhow because, you know, you're thinking about some of the things that, you know, you would love for your family to have.

But obviously because of the economic situation, you know, it's just more and more increasingly, you know, difficult because you know that it is probably not gonna happen.

Talk about some of those things.

- It is, we see families all the time, we have several programs that we work with, homeless individuals, and then we also work with families who are struggling economically, maybe on the verge, living paycheck to paycheck.

The holidays are a very hard time for them.

And really even I think about so many of our families, to get out of their current situation, so when you are just trying to get through each day, you're in survival mode.

So what is the best way for them to come out of that current situation and move up?

Maybe further education?

How are they gonna do that when they're already working full time, they have three kids, they're a single mom, it's just not enough time in the day.

So they're goal is to get through each day.

And so to find the time to take classes or find a better job, whatever skills or training that might require, it's really hard to get out of that position.

And then when you have things like the holidays come up, that just makes it that much harder, the extra expenses, especially when you think about parents and kids.

Yeah.

The holidays are hard.

- And it takes resources- - Right.

- to actually obtain those things.

It takes resources to go get those classes.

- Yes.

- Or it takes resources to get the additional training to try to level up.

I mean, all of this- - Yes, - you know, it's like money isn't everything- - Correct, - But it is an option.

You know?

- It makes things easier.

- It does make things a lot easier.

- It sure does.

So, Amber, when you're researching this as well, what can we do?

I mean, we don't want this just to be despair.

Let's offer some hope for people who are watching or know someone who is in that situation.

What can they do to help?

- Well, I think the first thing to acknowledge and point out is exactly what Danielle was saying, which is we have to stop looking at this as a numbers game.

Because, you know, as a researcher, I have a tendency to say, okay, 30% is this and 40% is this, but we really need to stop and remember these are human beings.

- Right.

- And this is not the kind of situation where we can look at it and say, "Oh, that's really sad."

And then just move on to the next thing.

- Right.

- You know, I do see people having compassion for this and saying that they feel bad about it, but I think there's a real disconnect, that people don't quite understand the difference between having a rough financial moment in your life and being truly in a position of not being able to dig out of the economic situation that you're in.

And so I think truthfully, step one to this problem is to have this collective notion that these are people that we're talking about- - Right.

- And human beings that we're dealing with.

And this doesn't mean that perhaps they are suffering with a mental health crisis or they're experiencing issues of substance abuse or depression or self-harm, but that doesn't mean that we can just write these people off.

- Right, and every situation is different.

- Mm-hmm, yes.

- So there needs to be ways to help each, so we're going to provide some of those types of things so that you gonna know what's happening.

- Yes, so I want to spend some more time talking about what this issue really is and what impact this really has on the people experiencing it.

And then on our second episode, we'll have a guest on that talks to us a little bit more about what we can do to alleviate this issue.

- Perfect, perfect, so be sure that you're here for that.

Well, let's talk about the people.

Like who's most likely to experience this?

- Oftentimes it's those that are already struggling day to day, lower income individuals, because it doesn't take much to sort of push them down further.

- [Betty] Right.

- You mentioned what can we do to help this?

I think one of the biggest issues is education, that there are people, that every situation is different.

There's a lot of stereotypes.

I hear so many things about, "Well they chose that" or "they did that, "this is the consequences."

No, that's not the case.

- Right.

- Oftentimes, if you knew their story and the life that led them to where they're at, they have accomplished great things- - Yes.

- Yes.

- that have been hard.

- Yes.

- And so understanding each person individually and eliminating some of those stereotypes, I think is huge.

Having that compassion for individuals who are struggling.

- Thank you, Carrie.

(bright hopeful music) The damages done by living in tough economic circumstances is clear, and it's devastating.

We're taking a short break, but when we come back, we'll continue our discussion on this critical topic.

(bright hopeful music continues) (bright hopeful music continues) - We are back with Carrie Higgins, Housing Services Division Director for the City of Topeka to visit about economic despair in Kansas.

And the last segment we wanted to talk about the people, 'cause again, sometimes we get hung up on numbers, but talking about the people, when you're in a situation like that, and I've experienced it personally myself, you get so low that basically the ground is almost like the ceiling and some of the behaviors that come along with that when you feel like you can't go any further, any higher, you know, you could turn to drugs, alcohol, just something to numb the pain.

Talk a little bit about that.

- We do see that, they're low, they're in crisis, and so they seek any coping mechanism that will alleviate that, even if it's short term.

So sometimes we do see individuals with substance abuse issues, alcohol, drugs.

It's fairly common because it's easily accessible.

- Do you think, and I know some of this is assumption and supposition and all of that good thing, but also some of it's common sense, right?

And so do you think that this is really just a way to try to self-medicate?

- Mm-hmm, I do.

Not for everyone.

- Sure.

- Certainly don't want to generalize or stereotype.

- Of course.

- But absolutely, it's a way to take some of the pain away.

- Yeah, and I think when you don't understand that, it's because you've had a position of privilege that's always put you in the position to never have to understand that.

- Mm-hmm.

- So I hear what we're all saying about, there is a lot of judgment involved with how people view this issue.

And really that judgment should be removed because we are all a lot closer to economic despair than we might want to really be honest with ourselves about.

- Yeah.

- And so I definitely think that that position of privilege that people have enjoyed makes it so they just can't understand why someone might turn to substances or how someone's anxiety could become consuming.

But it's usually because they haven't experienced that for themselves- - For themselves.

- or come anywhere close to it.

- And to piggyback off of that, everybody, or a lot of people, I shouldn't say everybody, a lot of people could be one paycheck away- - Oh, sure.

- In that situation.

- That's right.

Yes.

- There could be a medical situation.

- Right.

- There could be some kind of personal situation.

- Your water heater goes out.

- Car doesn't start one morning.

- I mean there are a number of reasons why a person could be in that situation, so nobody is in a position to be judgemental.

- Exactly.

- And I just wanted to interject that.

- Yeah.

- And to really just reinforce what it is that you just said.

- I think that's true.

And what about the children?

I mean, you know, we have a coat drive going on right now, sweater drive, and it's going to students in 501.

And you know, I know that some of them have to feel on some level, maybe the older they are the more they understand it, what can we do to help our children?

- I think those coat drives, donating items, those are all really great ways because you're supporting the parents, supporting the family, which then in turns help the kids.

Those are great ways to start.

- I have a question that's sort of the opposite.

Are there things that people, their instinct is to do something and it's just not particularly helpful?

Are there behaviors that we see people engaging in, coming from a good place, but maybe not being as helpful as it could be?

This is a really random question, it just sort of occurred to me.

- Great question.

I'm trying to think, I can't think of anything off hand.

- I mean, I'm thinking of like- - I could think of something.

- Sure, sure.

- Giving old food, like old food out of your cabinets.

- Oh, yes.

- Like, "Here, I don't want this hominy, "but here, you all take it because you're hungry," and it's like- - Expired food.

- okay, Why would you give expired food?

"You wouldn't eat it yourself."

- Yeah.

- That's right.

- "But you want me to eat it?"

- [Carrie] Damaged clothing items.

- Yes.

- Damaged clothing.

- Sure.

- Things have been used.

- And here's another thing that I just saw about like, people are donating canned goods, you know, so they just put, like all kind like 20 different canned goods and then that makes it harder for the people who are sorting it out and distributing it.

So you said, like, "Just buy a whole case of macaroni" or, "a whole case of green beans."

- Yes.

- Or you know, and donate it that way 'cause it's easier to give out to the different families.

- Yeah.

Yep.

Gently used items.

- Sure.

- If it's not something that you would use, don't donate it.

- Or things that have to require heating 'cause some people do not have- - Sure.

- Or don't have a can opener.

- Exactly.

- Right.

- But these are the things that we don't always think about, right?

And I do think there is something about human behavior, and when I look at this from a research perspective, there's some disconnect here for people that aren't experiencing financial crises or even financial hardship because- - Or don't know anybody who is.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- And so we have a tendency in our society to dehumanize people when they're experiencing something we're uncomfortable with.

And that is exactly what's happening here, is that when we see someone who is unhoused, it's much easier for us to say, "They've done something to get them there."

Because there have been these efforts to dehumanize people, that are successful efforts to be quite frank, and so the more we can stop and reflect and say, like, "There's no telling what got this person."

- Right.

- But I cannot imagine that if you went around and interviewed unhoused people, they're going to tell you that they are very glad that they ended up in that situation, no one is seeking this, right?

This is something that happens to people and it is not intentional.

I cannot anymore with these discussions about, you know, handouts or people not working for what they have.

That's not true.

That's not what's happening.

- It's not, yeah.

- Could you speak to that a bit?

- There are so many different stereotypes about that, but it's not true.

If you heard their stories, not just homeless individuals, but anyone struggling, most of them would bring you to your knees.

The things that they have endured and been through, they're not choosing that.

It has been things that have happened to them or crazy situation, they fell sick and they're in the hospital.

Just random things that could happen to any of us that put them in those situations.

- I mean, most of us are one medical emergency away from being in extreme financial hardship or missing a mortgage payment.

- Absolutely.

- You know, or not being able to pay rent because we're living in a housing crisis right now.

- Absolutely.

- And so you know, we're making these big assumptions that people should be able to do these things, but we're failing to recognize that we don't have affordable rental properties available.

- [Carrie] Yes.

- We don't have affordable childcare options.

- Right.

- Yes.

- We don't have ways for people to reasonably make a livable wage.

- Exactly.

- $7.25 is not an acceptable minimum wage.

- Exactly.

- And so you have people who are working, you know, three and four jobs.

- Four different jobs.

- And again, still coming up with that 20,000 and 24,000- - [Carrie] Yes.

- and having, you know, kids and having to survive and you know, they don't have a car or they have to take the bus.

And again, all this is more money on top of more money.

- Yes.

- Right.

- What do you do with that?

- And I think we've fully addressed, I think everybody out there is realizing, you know, this could be me.

It has been me, it is me, but we've gotta find a solution.

- Mm-hmm.

I would say if you are struggling, don't wait.

Reach out for help sooner than later, we see a lot of individuals wait until it escalates and then it's just harder.

Reach out to any of the social service agencies, reach out to 211.

It's a hotline that United Way runs.

- Ah.

- And you can call that anywhere in the country and they will be able to tell you what resources are available in your area.

So that would be a good starting place.

- Is there anybody who goes out and canvases the areas and shows them?

I mean, I know that there's a group that takes the showers out.

- Yes.

- And, you know, goes and cleans up the camps, but we have to visit with these people.

- And that's just specifically for unhoused individuals.

- Right, yes.

- We're not even talking about the thousands and thousands of people, they have a home but just barely.

- And they can't.

And again, like we were saying- - They can't afford.

- They don't look the part necessarily.

- That's right, they fall in a gap that is often missed because they're not down here, but they're still struggling.

- Exactly.

- And they do fall in a gap.

And they often are working Monday through Friday.

So the different food banks - Exactly.

- and social service agencies are not open when they're not working.

And so it is a huge struggle.

- So you mentioned something about people waiting, so is this a point of embarrassment?

What encourages people to wait before they reach out for help?

- I think it's multiple factors.

I think it is, "I can figure this out."

- [Amber] Yeah.

- "Something's gonna work out," and then it doesn't.

There's a lot of shame in having to ask for help.

- Yeah, your pride.

- People don't want to have to do that.

- Absolutely.

- It's hard, it's very hard.

So I think it's both of those things.

I think sometimes it's not knowing what resource is available and where to turn for help as well.

- And I think the whole judgemental thing, if we can start with ourselves, and when we see a person, don't be judgmental because you don't know what they've been through.

You know, there was one thing about, you hear about the depths of despair, but there's also the deaths of despair.

So, and again, you know, as we referred to a little bit earlier, it can go to the mental health.

- Yes.

- "There's no way "I can cope, I have to commit suicide."

- Yeah, and we think about, a lot of these families or individuals don't have support systems.

- Right.

- They don't have anyone that they can turn to, even if it's just for encouragement or to talk to, they are on their own.

And then when you're in crisis and you're struggling, you turn to other coping mechanisms and it can get very dark.

- Poverty is an isolating thing.

- Yes.

- Not only because you are maybe feeling shameful or you're exhausted from all the things you're trying to do to make money, but also because making connections requires transportation, requires a phone, often these days requires a computer.

"Hop online to ww and enroll here," - Yeah, "I can't.

- Well that is a digital divide.

- "I don't have a computer."

- Where people, they cannot afford computers or the internet in their home or they don't have a bill so they can get a library card to use the internet.

- Or access to the library, like you said.

- You know, there are all these barriers put in place.

And we could spend many, many hours discussing them.

So thank you so much Carrie.

- Absolutely.

- We really appreciate you being here with us.

This is an important topic that's hard to talk about, so thank you so much.

We feel like we've had some light shed on the real harm done being by the financial state some Kansans and find themselves in.

More great discussion coming up on "Inspire," stay with us.

(bright upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) - Okay, we have learned so much about economic despair.

It's scary, what does it mean?

What about our communities?

Everybody deserves to not only survive but to thrive, so- - Yeah, and there's a big difference in that.

You know, I think sometimes we assume that if people are paying their bills and they're putting food on the table, that they're fine.

And you know, there is a huge difference between worrying all day every day and making your ends meet and worrying all day every day and not making your ends meet and not having any room for anything in your life other than worry and concern and struggle.

It's not how people should be living.

- Mm-hmm.

- I think that there are going to be more people in that situation.

And definitely, as of next year, I think the numbers are going to continue to grow and compassion, being less judgemental, all of that.

And there are people in offices everywhere that are the faces of what we're talking about.

- Right.

- And nobody knows.

They go, they do their job, they go along to get along and people have no idea what's going on with them.

- Well that whole thing, you know, walk a mile in somebody else's shoe.

- Absolutely.

- But it's frightening.

I mean, you know, the obvious, like you say the obvious person sitting downtown Topeka with a blanket or whatever, that's very different than one of us sitting in the office and you know, nobody realizing it.

- Yeah, and so I think we really have to expand our definition of what it means to think about people struggling financially.

You know, we make assumptions all the time and that gets us in trouble a lot.

And you know, just opening up our hearts and like you're saying, reduce that judgment and look at people as human beings.

- Right.

- And then figuring out how we can help.

I think we are living in a time where we can no longer just turn inward on these issues, I think- - Or ignore it completely.

- That's right.

- I mean, how many people do just, you know, they'll pass that person, they don't even speak, and oftentimes that person just wants to be treated as a human being- - Yeah, that's right.

- Absolutely.

- spoken to, felt like they're important, valued, seen.

- Exactly, and there's enough shame in the situation and there's enough condemnation from society for people being in that particular situation that they don't need additional people.

- Right.

- Or somebody like, "Well if you just do this, this and this, "then that'll get you out of your situation "and that's what you need."

And it's like, you have no idea what's going on with a particular person's- - No idea.

- Right.

- you know, situation, lifestyle, family.

You have no idea the contributing factors.

And so, you know, what seems like an A, B, C kind of answer to you may not even scratch the surface.

- I think that's right.

I think people are quick to say things like, "Well just work harder," and not realizing that when we're setting our minimum wage, it's a joke.

- Exactly.

- It's a joke.

- Seven and what now?

- 25.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- And people are working three and four jobs.

- Right.

- How many hours in the day- - Yeah.

- Do you have to work?

- And then you still have, most people still have family concerns.

I mean, there's a myriad of things that we're not taking into consideration.

- And look down upon.

- That's right.

- I mean, you know, people think, you know, remember the latchkey?

Oh, well that's a latchkey kid, you know, shame on those parents.

Well, they can't help it.

- That's exactly right.

And so I think instead of using our energy on making someone feel shame because they're already feeling it themselves- - Right.

- We should use our energy to try to correct the problem.

It's a responsibility that we should all be taking on to care about our communities as a whole.

- To try to lift people up.

- That's right, that's exactly right.

- Well, that's all the time that we have today.

We can certainly continue on with this.

But we would love for you to join us for our follow up segment where we dig deeper into economic despair in the state of Kansas.

Thank you to our guest, Carrie Higgins for joining us on "Inspire."

And don't forget that you can watch this program at watch.ktwu.org.

(bright upbeat music) - And if you are inspired to learn more about our guest and find out what's coming up on future shows, visit our website at ktwu.org/inspire.

- Inspiring women, inspiring healthy communities, inspiring you, we hope, on KTWU.

We thank you for watching.

(upbeat music continues) (upbeat music continues) "Inspire" is sponsored by the estate of Ray and Anne Goldsmith.

- [Presenter] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation and- - [Betty] Friends of KTWU.

We appreciate your financial support.

Thank you.

(bright upbeat music)