(upbeat music) - Join us for part two of our series on economic despair in the state of Kansas.

We're going to sit down with experts on the topic to discuss possible solutions to this problem and what positive improvements that communities could see from alleviating this issue.

Coming up on Inspire.

(soft music) - [Announcer] Inspire is sponsored by the estate of Ray and Ann Goldsmith.

- [Narrator] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation.

And.

- [Announcer] Friends of KTWU.

We appreciate your financial support.

Thank you.

(bright music) (upbeat music) - Hello, thank you for being with us on Inspire.

I'm grateful to be here with my brilliant Inspire sisters, Danielle Norwood and Amber Dickinson.

And thank you so much.

This is wonderful.

We do know a significant portion of people in Kansas are struggling financially.

These challenges can lead to serious health concerns like depression, substance abuse, and even self-harm.

Today, we turn our attention to possible solutions that could solve this heartbreaking problem.

What can we do to change the financial future of people suffering in a state of economic despair?

- We know economic despair is plaguing our communities in Kansas.

We know this issue is causing real damage to the citizens of this state.

Joining us today to consider the possible solutions to this public problem is Bill Fiander, public administration instructor at Washburn University, and formerly the planning and development director for the city of Topeka.

So before we put you on the spot to talk about potential solutions, just to sort of recap what we talked about with Carrie Higgins on our last episode of the same topic was really looking at the mental health aspects of this.

And we really got into discussing stigmas in our society associated with people who are struggling financially.

And we talked about how sometimes the burden and the despair that people feel from their economic situation can really snowball into depression and anxiety, into substance abuse issues, into things like self harm.

And so what we wanna do today is really spend some time talking about what are possible solutions to this problem.

So I think just to jump right in, is the magnitude of this problem so great that local governments are just too overburdened to deal with this?

- That's a great question.

I worked 30 plus years in local government, mostly almost all as a city planner.

I've got to cross paths with many neighborhoods that were in despair, people that were in those neighborhoods in despair, and people whose lives kind of were overturned because of a decision that maybe government could have made differently.

And so, is it too big?

No, I think you have to work upstream.

And I think if we're gonna talk about solutions, you can talk about today, the here and now, what do you do now?

I as a planner, I as somebody who looked long term, less than short term, was always looking at prevention.

We were looking at how can we avoid getting to this situation?

Real simply, and I oversaw housing services division for a city, and it was a simple goal, to keep people in their homes.

And you can avoid a lot of economic despair.

Once we lose a person outside their home, then we do lose the opportunity.

I mean, it becomes a much more expensive and complex solution.

- And not only expensive, but to that person and to their feeling of self worth and their whole family's feeling.

- Yeah, you never know where somebody's coming from.

And so, when you're dealing with somebody on a typical basis, providing a service, you don't know what they're going through.

But we do, we know, and we're supposed to be neutral, treat everyone equitably and the same, no matter who they are, as they come through our doors as a government.

But I can say that we all wanted to prevent a more expensive, more complicated, more complex, more potentially unsolvable solution.

And so, yeah, I'm gonna be, if we talk solutions, I've got to talk about then how do we work back upstream and prevent some of these from happening.

- For prevention.

Let's elaborate on that, please.

- Well, I mean, I think you've heard of the broken windows theory, I guess, I don't know.

- Tell us.

- No, what is that?

- No, we haven't.

- That's why you're here, to tell us these things.

- Is it like once that you start seeing that in neighborhoods, it's kind of like a downhill slide?

- Exactly.

- Okay.

- Good, Betty Lou.

- Yeah, so we're done.

(all laughing) But I think the broken window in a neighborhood or on a block, in this case, is a manifestation of someone's economic despair.

You can't fix the window, you can't repair the A/C, you can't fix the hole in the roof.

I mean, you don't have heat, you don't have secure doors.

There's all sorts of manifestations, economically, when someone is despaired, that comes across in a community.

And so, when you see that as an outsider, you see that, you think, oh, people don't care.

They don't have much pride.

And so, it invites a criminal element.

It invites, it really steers people that maybe do have more means away from the neighborhood.

Then you get concentrations of poverty, and now you've just compounded the whole economic despair thing tenfold.

So, we were always, at the government level, always local, always trying to avoid concentration of economic despair, I guess is the best way to use your term.

- Sure, right, right.

- And so, that broken window, yeah, we didn't want it to turn into more broken windows, exactly.

And that's kind of the idea of how can we avoid that.

- So, would the government step in, or how could the government step in in those particular occasions?

- Well, probably the, 'cause you can't... there are places that do predictive homeless programs, and they can take risk factors, and a lot of people that are on the verge of homelessness or are in a social program, government does collect your basic data, and they can follow you and track you, and they can predict that.

But besides that, the best thing would be, as soon as that broken window appears, you have to remediate that.

- Address it right away.

- Immediately.

So, it doesn't sit there and then cause further, psychologically cause further issues of, oh, this is an area of abandonment, and people are not taking care of things, and they don't care.

- But what if you go back to, okay, say it's a single housing unit.

The person doesn't have resources to take care of the broken window.

- Yeah.

- And now you've got a situation, say it's wintertime, and you've got a broken window, which is probably going to lead to a higher heating bill.

- Sure, right.

- So, I mean, you've got all of these things that lead to a slide, and the person is further and further in the hole.

- And they don't know how to get themselves out.

- How to get themselves out.

And on top of that, they don't know if anybody even cares to help them with any kind of resources to get them out.

- They don't know who to ask.

- They don't know who to ask, because they don't have any kind of connections.

- Yeah, you're getting to something I was gonna get to.

- Oh, okay, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to jump ahead.

- No, but we don't wanna forget this point that you're getting at, and that is not do they just not have, or have economic despair, but they lose the ability to have political influence and clout.

- Sure, sure.

- They're not heard.

- Yeah.

- They either don't think their voice matters, or their loss of hope in the matter.

There's a distrust of government, very much so.

And so just, again, think of an area that has concentrated a lot of this.

It becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy there.

But I would say to get back, so to get back to the question of, neighbors can help, we got most of our referrals from neighbors who cared.

And so hopefully those blocks in those neighborhoods still have people that are watching out after one another.

But then we can, and it could be a non-profit too, this is not just government.

It could be a non-profit or government that has a weatherization program, that they could come in and for a small amount, help save on your energy costs.

Or we had sewer repairs, which were, I mean, if you've ever had tree roots get in their sewer and it's backed up, we had many people that just kept living without adequate facility.

- Without proper- - Yeah, and compounding, again, health issues here.

- And not just physical health, but mental health.

I mean, that is a stressful situation.

That's inhumane, really.

- Or even mold.

- Exactly.

- Yeah, those are situations we should not be asking people to live in.

So you've brought up a really interesting point, which was distrust.

So do you think that you have within communities, you have more of a level of distrust within the government?

And if so, is that causing people to have hesitations to reach out for assistance?

- In terms of folks that might be, have a little more of a need, you would think there would be a much more closer connection because that's what local government is there.

We're the backstop.

When folks fall through that hole, that crack in the system, there's a safety net there.

And that's kinda how it should be.

But I'd say more often than not, we saw people that just did not want to, I'm not a psychologist, but I don't think people were very proud of admitting, "I've got a problem."

Now, there are some that are clearly squeaky wheel gets the oil sort of thing, and knew how to- - Which is great.

You want people to get their resources.

- Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, no, I do think, and that's why I get back to leaders in the community, leaders in the neighborhoods.

People that have been there a while, they look out after their neighbors, and I don't think government can teach that.

I don't think that's what we're there for.

But once you lose that, we don't really have a great way to provide a public service that we're, "Hey, come sign up for this great new idea," whatever it is, we don't have a way to reach for it.

And so, community development organizations, we don't have as many as we used to, where they're a nonprofit that works directly in a geographic area, and they get to know.

Maybe people that live in the neighborhood are on the boards.

Maybe they serve in volunteer staff time.

But those CDCs, as they're known, they offer everything from financial help, financial education, to how to prepare meals at a lower cost, to repairing your weather stripping around your window.

So it could be a number of things, but you want folks that are closer to the people that have the despair, that have the need.

Local government is as low as it gets for government, but there's even another level, which is the nonprofit, the community development organization, that could be housed in that area that is even closer.

And I think that's where you get trust levels, and they can bridge that.

- Absolutely.

We're going to take a short break, but we're going to return soon and continue this important discussion on economic despair.

Please stay with us.

(upbeat music) Welcome back.

Here to talk more about potential solutions to the problem of economic despair in Kansas is Bill Fiander, public administration instructor at Washburn University.

And you have a very wonderful past here in the city of Topeka.

For those who might just be tuning in, what was that?

- Oh, sure.

I was the city's planning director for 10 years, and had worked for the city of Topeka for the last 25 years in planning and development.

So a lot of the issues that we got to see, I've walked just about every neighborhood in Topeka when I first got here, 'cause I was the neighborhood planner.

That's what brought me here.

So I had to work with every what we call a low-moderate income neighborhood in the city, and did neighborhood plans for 'em.

And so I had to get to know every block.

I literally surveyed every house.

- Thank you for doing that.

- Yeah.

(laughs) - What did you learn over the years?

What have you learned over the years?

- Oh, I guess that people don't care what you know until they know that you care, you know?

And I thought I knew, I thought I was pretty smart, and I had a lot of answers, but they taught me.

The people in those neighborhoods taught me.

They had more answers.

They had the right answers, and I was there to more help provide information, help kind of connect the dots for them, and get them into resources and, you know, programs or a project that could help their community.

But they really, if I didn't have their guidance, then I would, it would be purposeless for me to provide my solution to them when I don't know what their, what they want, what their true needs are.

- We talked in the break about community-based organizations, and one of the big issues that I see, especially in media, is that, you know, communication is about a sender and a receiver.

I think that the sender and the receiver are in two totally different places.

These neighborhoods don't know what's going on, and you're like, well, we have people who are doing this, that, and the other, and there's a disconnect.

How can we get everybody on the same page?

- And I don't have the secret sauce, per se, for this, but I can tell you, when we went to neighborhoods that had good neighborhood organizations and leadership, and I can't tell you necessarily, how that always comes about, 'cause it comes in, but when we were doing a neighborhood plan, or we were, or there was a project in the area, or there was a crisis in the area, or we were just trying to give out money, literally just going to door-to-door saying, hey, we've got some housing repair money, you don't have to even pay it back, or maybe you do if you take more, and we would be working on sidewalks and alleys and the infrastructure stuff, and whenever my staff would go at it alone and go door-to-door and try to inform people, we got horrible participation.

When we had a person, or persons from the neighborhood go with them, it changed everything.

And people engage and participate in those important programs for 'em, so that's a big thing that I'm picking up and learning over the years is, you have to know your role, and I think I was humbled enough to now figure it out.

- We look at this in political science all the time when we talk about this idea of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and how important it is to make everyone feel welcome.

This applies to financial status as well.

You know, we forget that a lot, and we tend to have some real ideas about what people from different economic classes, because we still very much use class systems in our society, and we're kidding ourselves if we say that we don't, and we make judgments about what each of those groups of people must be worth.

And so when I look at how we treat different groups as a society as a whole, I can see where some distrust comes from, right?

Because when we, especially when we traditionally look at who has leadership positions in our governments and our societies, it tends to be people who have higher levels of money, and they have gone to school, and they are predominantly, for a long time in American history, it's been white people and white people only at the top.

And so you can see how in communities that tends to be marginalized, that also are correlated as being a low-income community, I can see why you wouldn't trust someone who doesn't relate to you at all to solve your problem, because the mindset would be, this person has a position of power and hasn't helped me in the past, why will they be helping me in the future?

And I do think that accounts for some of the distrust.

I think it's reasonable to have that distrust.

- Yeah, there's just some things we would never know.

I mean, I remember, it didn't happen here in Topeka, but I know, studied a community, a big community, that rightly so, went back and looked at the equity of their city in terms of tree coverage, okay?

We're just talking tree coverage here.

This isn't, you don't really think about this sometimes, but it has very psychological positive impacts, not just from climate, but there's actual science behind a green neighborhood that actually prevents disease in you.

And this is, it's a, I won't go down that hole, but, and so the government would say, "Oh yes, let's plant more trees in your area."

And that they might go out and just do it.

And that might upset some people in the neighborhood because they don't want, they don't know enough to like, what is this?

- I have different needs that seem much bigger than a tree in my neighborhood, would be a natural response.

- Or I don't want a tree blocking my view of the, you know, the drug house.

- The cul-de-sac where my kid, or the cul-de-sac where my kid rides their bike, as simple as that, right?

- And so before you do even something that seems very basically beneficial, that city actually ended up hiring the residents from the neighborhood to go out and ask, do you, is this helpful?

- Get their input.

- Yeah, what do you think?

And then provide some information why it could benefit them.

And so there's gotta be that back and forth.

- And once they understand, you know, on both sides, there's a better chance at a solution.

- Exactly.

- But there always has to be some buy-in, 'cause you cannot come into a neighborhood and tell people what to do, and you haven't been in the neighborhood except for like five minutes.

It's like, this is what we're doing.

Aren't you happy?

It's like, no, I'm not happy, and you can leave.

- Sure.

So we are coming to the end of our episode, but we have to ask the big question.

Are there reasonable steps that can be taken to see a reduction of this issue in our communities?

- Yeah, and I'm gonna approach it, I think yes, but I have to approach it again from prevention and kind of go upstream here.

And I think the thing that I always come back to in my teaching and my experience gets back to where we live, whether it's housing, whether it's the neighborhood.

Even as I got into education, as I'm teaching classes now for a living, you learn, and many other teachers can tell us this, the things that happen outside the class walls are actually probably more important before they get inside the class.

Room walls.

Those are factors, and so looking at everything from having affordable housing in areas that have opportunities for better schooling, for better access to public amenities, groceries, you name it.

- So you're talking about thriving, not just surviving.

- Yeah, well, yeah, I'd like to think so.

- And those opportunities have kind of dwindled away, and that's probably why you're talking about this subject today.

- And thank you so much for your time today.

This was an incredible discussion, and I wish we had more time to talk to you about this even further.

You're brilliant.

Thank you so much, Bill, for being here.

We are so grateful for the time that you've given us, Bill, and we have been able to really think through a problem that so many of the people in this state are facing daily.

Stay with us.

There's more coming right up.

(upbeat music) And we're back with Bill Fiander talking about economic despair in the state of Kansas.

Bill, talk to us about what should we be on the lookout as community members to see positive change in this area?

- Yeah, I kind of left you hanging a little bit there, but I wanted to make sure that everyone understands, here's a simple fact.

The research has shown children in affordable housing score better in their cognitive testing than children in unaffordable housing.

So what does that tell you?

So you go upstream again, go to the housing.

Before they ever go into school, are they ready?

What is the capacity for their readiness?

And so if we have a concentration of poverty, if we have economic despair, you as a parent are not even, you're worried about everything else.

That affects education.

Education has shown to be a cause and effect of economic health.

- And upward mobility.

- Upward mobility, family health.

So good policy.

Good policy would be opening up housing choices and transportation choices.

And if you can do that, if those are the sort of policy, that include in your community, meaning you have a choice to live in a neighborhood of your choice, and it could be an apartment, it could be a multifamily unit, is it affordable?

I don't have a car.

I can't afford a car.

Can I walk?

Can I have to take transit?

Is it safe to ride a bike?

If you have those choices, if your community's providing those housing and transportation choices for everybody, you're on your way.

But if they're concentrated and they're segregated and you're not seeing the equity in those types of facilities and units, then chances are you're gonna have some repercussions downstream.

- Thank you very much, Bill.

We all want to see communities and families thriving and addressing these kinds of issues head on as a way to make that happen.

We have come to the end of our look at "Economic Despair" for now, and we do thank you again, Bill Fiander, for being our guest on "Inspired."

Don't forget, you can watch this program again at watch.ktwu.org.

- If you find yourself inspired to learn more about our guest and what's coming up on future shows, visit our website at www.ktwu.org/inspire.

- Inspiring women, inspiring thriving families and communities, inspiring you, on KTWU.

Thank you for watching.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] "Inspire" is sponsored by the estate of Ray and Ann Goldsmith.

- [Announcer] And the Raymond C. and Marguerite Gibson Foundation.

And.

- [Announcer] Friends of KTWU.

We appreciate your financial support.

Thank you.

(bright music)