(soft upbeat music) - Welcome to "Capitol View", the weekly program where we talk about State politics and government and what it might just mean for you.

Joining me this week on "Capitol View" is Amanda Vinicky, corespondent for WTTW television in Chicago.

Welcome Amanda.

- Thanks so much Bruce.

- And also Sarah Mansur, who is reporter for Capitol News Illinois in Springfield, Illinois assigned to the State House.

Welcome Sarah.

- Thanks for having me.

- We had all sorts of things planned for our program this week and we are taping the day after the events at the Capitol where folks did what they did.

Unfortunately, tragically, some lives were lost.

And where do we go from here?

And so, at least at first let's talk about what happened last night.

And unfortunately this isn't live, who knows what's gonna happen in the next 24, 48 hours.

But what we have to deal with now I think is what happened yesterday.

And it went long into the night in terms of arriving at a pre-determined, known destination.

And folks are scratching their heads I think all over the United States.

You know, what have we come to here?

And folks, politicians and that's our job is to talk about politics, have reacted in vastly different ways.

And so let's try and go down the list from folks who are elected here in Illinois, public officials, and talk about what they've done and said in the last 24 hours.

Let's start with Mary Miller.

She is the newly elected Congresswoman from Southern Illinois.

She took John Shimkus's seat.

And yesterday before the Capitol was taken over by a mob, she made a reference to Hitler saying that Hitler was right on at least one thing, we have to get the children first.

I'm paraphrasing, I don't read a lot of Hitler stuff.

And I probably maybe you should be paying more attention to Mary Miller from here on out.

How do you say something like that?

And what did it matter, what did it resonate, what did it say when said it as opposed to what does it mean now?

Is there any difference here?

What do you think, Amanda?

- I think certainly it carries different weight, should it?

Perhaps that's part of it when we digest the attack, the siege, the insurrection, however you wan to call that on the Capitol of the United States of America, the seat of government.

You know, I was talking to somebody that it's not a tourist destination.

It is the seat of our government.

When you talk about what happened there, I think the biggest question is what all led to it?

So perhaps yes, the new Congresswoman Mary Miller's comments do resonate a bit differently after yesterday's events but we need to, I think really maybe spend more time or at least an equal amount of time thinking about where she said them, what the point of her remarks was before this siege.

Because it's that sort of thing, that sort of tenor in politics, this isn't a partisan statement, it is merely the way in which politics is perceived now and carried out including by those who hold those prestigious and important offices.

And in what terms?

I mean, in terms really of war, of saying her comments were along the lines of you know, Hitler was right about one thing is really I think the remark that people were very upset about.

That you have to get the youth in an election or so that is successfully won by, as she put it, the party of freedom, faith and values doesn't mean enough, you need to indoctrinate really the youth.

And so, I think that's all really like part of this that we've gotten to the point this is gets to the lack of trust that people have in their government.

Again, on both sides of the aisle, perhaps why some of the individuals did take it to storming the Capitol.

For some it's because they had been I think told by their elected leaders at the highest levels of government that this was an election that was stolen from them.

And they perceived this as sticking up for their country and their beliefs and fighting for the United States of America.

Others, despite any evidence to that they had been told this repeatedly and others who feel disenfranchised.

And so I guess, it is thinking about why it is that people feel that way and we have such a lack of trust in our government.

And it's comments like that that we really need to be focusing on.

- I think that's an excellent point.

I mean, what led us to here and you know, I've thought a lot about this since yesterday, of course.

And I think rightly or wrongly, it starts for me I seem to sense it starting in the 1990s with the rise of talk radio.

And folks that it suddenly became, well not suddenly because it's always been okay on one level to call people names and belittle them and make fun of them.

But never, at least in my knowledge did that suddenly become okay for the mainstream so to speak, until the 1990s.

And nobody stopped it, nobody stopped it.

Nobody said this is out of bounds.

A few folks did, they weren't listened to and the internet comes along and it becomes that on steroids and not just from the conservative side but from the liberal side as well.

And you have so-called mainstream media outlets in this country and I'll call the New York Times and CNN.

They have become liberal mouthpieces.

And that's fine if that's what you want what you are but acknowledge that.

Don't say you're an objective source of news when you run editorials disguised as new stories because that I think undermines the faith that the public once had in the Fourth Estate.

We also have some blame I think, for this and what a heck of a mess?

What a heck of a mess.

Let's move on to another name, Adam Kinzinger.

He was first out of the gate almost yesterday saying this is garbage.

While other folks on the Republican side were trying to figure out what to say, he called it garbage.

What does that mean for his political future?

What do you think Sarah?

- So yeah, you're right, he was first out of the gate and as we've mentioned earlier, he called this morning for the 25th Amendment to be invoked to remove the president.

So I think it might impact his political career in a negative way.

There are still a lot, Donald Trump has a lot of support, maybe not necessarily in the State of Illinois but you know, he got the most votes of a sitting president in this past election so, it's not as though he lost in a landslide.

And so I think that there are still obviously Republicans who support him and view Republicans who don't follow his lead to be traitors to the cause.

And so, I think it might hurt his re-election chances moving forward.

- You know-- - I'm not sure, Go ahead.

- Yeah, I was gonna say, so Adam Kinzinger is a name that's particularly of late been tossed about as one who's seeking higher office, to go beyond his congressional seat, perhaps a run for governor of Illinois.

If I was a betting woman, I am not, I would say perhaps trying to vie for a spot in the U.S. Senate when Tammy Duckworth seat will be up.

And so, this might actually I think, help him in Illinois if he is to win statewide.

And that isn't to say that his remarks are not genuine.

I think both of those things can be true at the same time.

You can have a reaction and also a political calculus.

And again, that goes both for Kinzinger and for some of the other Republican members of Illinois' delegation, where Democratic members for that matter of Illinois delegation to Congress that are weighing how to react.

Be it those who like Congresswoman Underwood are saying that she wants President Trump to be impeached and Congressman Casten that likewise has called for that or for those, I'm guessing we'll talk about these as soon enough, like congressmen Bost and Miller who sided with the challenge to certifying the Electoral College or at least they sided with the challenge to Arizona's results.

So I think both can be true but it remains that Kinzinger does have a fine line to walk as do many Republicans as there is soul searching for the party.

What direction do they go?

What is Trump going to do?

He has as of this morning for the next two weeks at least, been banned from Facebook and Instagram, a step that Mark Zuckerberg says that he is taking because of the danger that is posed.

This is incredible sentence to have to say on a program, the danger that is posed by a sitting U.S. President who has promised an orderly transition of power.

But I think we can no longer describe it as a peaceful transition of power unfortunately, do of course, to Wednesday's events.

And so it's going to be a lot for the Republican Party to take in.

I talked to Republicans, some of whom are repulsed and they are outspoken about that repulsion and nonetheless have other members of the party that believe if not in what occurred yesterday but a believe in the policies Trump has put in place.

And some of his frustrations with how government has been run and his desire to topple those norms.

And so, we are going to be discussing for a long time I think what this means for the Republican Party as a collective as well as for individual members of it such as Kinzinger who are clearly have their sights set on something else.

- Sure, I think that's a good point.

I mean let's remember, I think who got the second most votes of any presidential candidate in U.S. history?

- Donald Trump.

- Donald Trump and a lot of folks who voted for Donald Trump aren't bomb throwers.

Most folks who voted for Donald Trump aren't gonna storm the Capitol.

Most folks who voted for Donald Trump weren't buying what Democrats were selling.

And that's probably something that folks are thinking about right now.

Because if you keep selling what Democrats have been trying to sell, that's not necessarily a recipe for success.

Donald Trump cost himself, he would have gotten re-elected if he hadn't been such a Donald Trump.

The Senate arguably would have been GOP if Donald Trump hadn't behaved the way he had in the last few weeks leading up to it.

He costs the GOP arguably, control of the U.S. Senate.

And I guess what this is leading, what I'm leading up to here is Americans, and I think folks in Illinois aren't different than a lot of other Americans.

They don't wanna throw bombs at the Capitol but they also don't want the Green New Deal and a forgiveness of college loans and whatever.

I mean, it runs the gamut here.

And so I'm looking at folks, you know Rodney Davis for example, he strikes me as somebody who got off the Trump train right on time and stopped short of what Bost has done.

What Miller clearly has done and what Darren LaHood did.

Well, I am kinda sort of, I haven't decided whether to, exactly where I stand on such a simple matter of democracy.

This wasn't a close election and for some reason, I mean because of the Electoral College it boiled down to not many votes in a few but compare I mean, 1976 was closer.

2000 was closer.

Other elections have been closer and we get this.

So let's talk about, I mentioned Rodney Davis here, how is he gonna use this?

If at all, because he's in a very precarious position in that redistricting is coming and whoever he is or whatever he might stand for, he might not have a chance depending on how the map is drawn.

What does he do from here going out and is his past support from Trump going to come back and haunt him.

Given that he said, nope, I've end.

This is gonna be a strong word.

It's hard to imagine that folks who voted in favor of this objector thing and it went down from, I think about a dozen, 13 in the Senate to six who had indicated support after the insurrection, storming of the Capitol, whatever you want to call it happen.

So that was cutting but we still have a whole bunch of folks in the House of Representatives who apparently didn't go to high school civics class.

What does Davis do with this?

Because I'm wondering whether this sets him up for perhaps some place different than he is, governor?

Kinzinger maybe.

What do you think Amanda?

Does this just help solidify the position where he already is?

- I think you're correct, he's in a precarious position.

I have no inclination that Davis is aspiring to higher office but given re-districting and just given that his current district and the dynamics, he is in a precarious sort of spot.

As are again, a lot of individuals, perhaps not as much in Illinois where you spoke about more of the progressive side of the Democratic Party which is very popular in certain districts.

Less so in others, many of the members of Congress and on the State level know their districts and vote as such but it's different.

When we talk about Republicans, Republicans are not all the same.

Democrats do not all come in with the same beliefs and the same agendas.

And so you're going to have a lot of intraparty squabbles, I think going forward.

And it gets back to how we began in this show, when you had asked about Congresswoman, Mary Miller and her remarks and will there be perceived differently?

Is there going to be any sort of true introspection by individual members and party leaders that is going to change the dynamics such that the first calculus is not what this means for my district and my re-election and more okay, are we going to come to some sort of resolution?

Is once again, going to be acceptable in Illinois politics to come to an agreement, to come to a compromise, or is compromise going to continue to be a dirty word really as it has been of late in at least the political circles.

So I think that is both an individual decision that people like Congressman Rodney Davis are going to have to have as well as one that voters need to press for as a larger debate.

- Yeah, does this become in any sense a litmus test?

If you supported these objections, that's a white line.

I mean, I'm not sure-- - Even if it does, it depends on your district, right?

So you look at for example, a Congressman Mike Bost or a Congresswoman Miller, how are voters there perceiving it because yes, you know when I tweeted something out, many of the people that follow me live in Chicago so, you know the reaction from some of the individuals who reside in the city say they should immediately be kicked out of Congress.

I imagine that there are many voters who support the steps that Bost and Miller took to continue to uphold the challenge to President Elect Biden soon going into The White House.

- Sure, I mean, excellent points.

I mean, you know, you represent your district or you don't stay in office.

But does someone like a Miller or a Bost then become a perpetual backbencher where okay, you're in Congress but you can't get anything done because you're painted into this Trumpy and sort of corner.

Let's move away from Republicans for a second and talk about Democrats.

When I was listening to the speeches last night, I thought Duckworth gave a very good speech.

I thought Durbin perhaps a little less so, not bad.

I thought Shimmer was a disaster.

It sounded like a campaign speech and compared to McConnell, and this is a difficult thing I think for some folks to admit, McConnell came across as the Statesman and somebody who was ready to heal and his counterpart in the Senate came across as if hadn't known that the campaign was over.

What do the Democrats go from here?

How do they take advantage?

Because that's what politics is about, is taking advantage.

So if you're the Democratic Party, what do you do now?

Do you say, okay, a centrist got elected as president.

We've got get behind that.

What is the recipe for success, particularly in Illinois, because Pritzker is not doing as well today as he was a year ago.

And there's a perception that he is vulnerable.

Sarah, what can the Democrats do to bolster their position?

And particularly as it relates to the gubernatorial election coming up two years from now.

- Yeah, I think you're right that Pritzker might not be an issue in the upcoming election.

And so, you know I think he's going to probably want to turn the page and try and move towards compromise with the Biden administration.

You know, there will be a Democrat in the white house and both chambers of Congress being controlled by Democrats.

So, potentially this is an opportunity for Democrats to move through legislation that is not particularly divisive but something that both sides can agree on.

And I think that J.B. Pritzker has talked a lot about just working closely with the Biden administration and looking forward to that.

And so that could help his re-election chances.

- Well yeah, but he's still got a $4 billion budget hole, a cannabis program that's a disaster, a Mike Madigan stuck to his shoe like, you know what, you can't get rid of.

- That's such an interesting imagery, I'm imagining like a little baby Madigan (laughs) holding onto a shoelace.

- Filling onto a shoelace.

And so, I mean you know, it's an old song maybe accurately or inaccurately the Democratic Party isn't necessarily a party whatsoever.

There's more you know, the Republicans seem to get their act together and speak with one voice more so than Democrats often do, you know.

I wonder whether a centrist is the recipe for success in statewide office coming to 2022.

Even in Chicago, Chicago maybe, (laughs) you know.

But this coming session, the veto session starts tomorrow.

We'll see what happens then.

And then we have a regular session with a whole bunch of stuff to get done.

It seems to me, is this coming session a make or break for the Governor?

What do you think, Amanda?

- You know, it's interesting because his first term in office he came out of there saying, gosh, I was so successful, it was with a lot of things frankly, that were always going to be pretty popular with Democrats, that hadn't gotten through before for various political reasons but he again, has this monster checkbook that makes everything a whole lot easier, I think for him to get some-- - Rauner had a monster checkbook too, go ahead.

- Yeah, although different sort of agendas, right?

- [Bruce] Yeah, right.

- And so, but now he's in a far more difficult position because the Graduated Income Tax Constitutional Amendment failed, that is huge.

That was a stinging loss for him both in the short term and in the longterm because what are the budget answers?

They aren't going to be easing.

They aren't going to be popular with his party or with voters.

And so, yes, this is a huge session for him and very much tied to that name Madigan and what happens with both the Illinois house speaker and his bid for another term in that role, as well as in general, should there be any continued, we know that the U.S. prosecutors are continuing to investigate corruption in Illinois.

What we don't know is where it will lead.

Continued speculation that it might lead straight to Madigan and not just to Madigan's allies.

Again of course, we have to say Madigan has denied any wrongdoing, any illegal activity, anything even that he says has been unethical.

So that is another huge thing for-- - It has led straight to Madigan.

The only person who says it hasn't led straight to Madigan is Madigan but go ahead.

- It's a different thing if he's actually indicted.

It just is.

That changes things because then the question is, Pritzker, what did you say?

Because at this point in time, he has been fairly strong in saying that, you know, I believe that Madigan needs to answer questions and if not leave.

He has not directly called for Madigan's resignation.

And so again, you asked earlier about a litmus test when it comes to President Trump in reaction to the events Wednesday at the U.S. Capitol.

That's the question with Madigan.

At what point, given all that we know, do you say no he needs to go or not despite his protestations that he's done nothing wrong.

- Sure, this is one of these programs where we could talk for an hour plus and not get tired of it.

But unfortunately our time is at an end.

And so, thanks everybody for joining us this week.

It's been a heavy, heavy week and let's hope that things get better in the future.

Join us next week, please.

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