>> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE FIRST INSURRECTION AT THE U.S. CAPITAL SINCE THE WAR OF 1812 IN 1814, AND CONGRESS CERTIFIES THE ELECTION OF PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN AND VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

WITH US THIS WEEK ARE FORMER REPRESENTATIVE DONNA EDWARDS, A DEMOCRAT FROM MARYLAND; PATRICE LEE ONWUKA OF THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM; RINA SHAH BRA ROLL, REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR BIDEN; AND DEBRA CARNAHAN, FORMER JUDGE AND PROSECUTOR.

WELCOME, LADIES.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE STARTING WITH YOU, DONNA EDWARDS?

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

QUITE FRANKLY, THE DEMOCRATS ARE USUALLY EXTREMELY RELUCTANT TO DO TO THE REPUBLICANS WITH THE REPUBLICANS ARE MORE THAN HAPPY TO DO TO THE DEMOCRATS, WHICH IS TO SAY, USE THE RULES OF THE SENATE TO SOME WOULD SAY STEEL SUCH THINGS AS U.S. SUPREME COURT SEATS FROM THE OTHER PARTY.

IS THIS GOING TO BE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT WILL FINALLY MAKE REAL USE, COMPLETE USE OF THE POWERS IT HAS, SUCH AS PUNISHING PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR INCITING INSURRECTION AND PUTTING IN JAIL PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, I THINK, I THINK DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO USE THE POWER THAT THEY HAVE, BOTH CONTROLLING THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE AND THE WHITE HOUSE, TO GOVERN, TO BRING REAL CHANGE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET A HANDLE OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND TO HOLD ACCOUNTABLE THOSE WHO NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

AND NATIONAL THINK IT'S ABOUT, LIKE, SORT OF A RACING THE PAST, OR JUST LOOKING FORWARD, THERE HAS TO BE A MEASURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND I THINK DEMOCRATS ARE PREPARED TO DO THE KIND OF OVERSIGHT THAT DID NOT TAKE PLACE WHEN REPUBLICANS HAVE CONTROL OF THE SENATE AND THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND NOT ACCOUNTABILITY AND THAT KIND OF OVERSIGHT IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE RIGHT NOW, AND THOSE WHO NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, I THINK DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO BE RESPONSIBLE IN GOVERNING AND MAKING SURE THAT THAT IS TRUE, BECAUSE WE DO NOT WANT TO REPEAT THIS AT ANY TIME IN OUR FUTURE.

WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IS REALLY DARK DAY AND A DARK STAIN ON DEMOCRACY, AND I THINK IN ORDER TO GET CONTROL OF THE, DEMOCRATS BOTH HAVE TO LOOK BACKWARDS AND THEY HAVE TO GOVERN FORWARD.

>> Deborah Carnahan: MY GREATEST CONCERN, AS MANY AMERICANS ARE CONCERNED, IS WHAT HAPPENS IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS WHILE THIS PRESIDENT IS STILL IN POWER?

AND THEN OF COURSE WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK INTO WHAT THE FAILURES WERE WITH THE CAPITAL POLICE.

I'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THE CAPITOL POLICE FOR OVER 16 YEARS NOW.

THEY ARE A VERY PROFESSIONAL GROUP OF PEOPLE, BUT THERE WAS A SYSTEMATIC FAILURE YESTERDAY, AS WE ALL WATCHED THE EVENTS UNFOLD.

>> Bonnie: PATRICE, YOU ARE NOT AN OFFICIAL SUPPORTER OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, YOUR ORGANIZATION IS NOT, BUT YOU CERTAINLY HAVE NOT DISAGREED WITH HIM ON ANY POLICY MEASURES.

DID HE STEP OVER THE THE LINE WITH INCITING INSURRECTION IN YOUR MIND?

>> Patrice Leon Onwuka: IN MY MIND, YES, PRESIDENT TRUMP STEPPED OVER THE LINE.

I WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED IN THE THINGS HE SAID DURING THE RALLY THAT ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO LEAVE THEIR THINKING, NUMBER ONE, THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE MERGING UP TO THE CAPITOL OR EVEN SOME OF THE EFFORTS BY REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WOULD OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

I THINK PEOPLE HAVE THAT IN THEIR MIND WHEN THEY WENT UP THERE AND I AGREE IT WAS RIDICULOUST WAS TOTALLY INDEFENSIBLE.

IT WAS RIOTING.

I DO THINK, THOUGH, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, YOU KNOW, I'M SURE THERE WILL BE REGULATIONS.

I'M ACTUALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO SOME GOOD POSITIVE LABOR RELATIONS TO PROTECT INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS IN THIS COUNTRY AND OTHER THINGS.

AND I DO WORRY WHEN I HEAR PEOPLE SAY, WELL, THE PRESIDENT MAY GO INSANE OR MAKE YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE HARMFUL.

I THINK FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT, SO MANY CONSERVATIVES, IF THEY TRULY WOULD ADMIT IT, THEY HAVE BEEN PLEASED WITH THE TAX POLICY, THE ECONOMIC POLICY, THE IMMIGRATION POLICY, THE FOREIGN POLICY OUT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK -- I DON'T ANTICIPATE ANYTHING GOING CRAZY AND I DO BELIEVE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IN RELEASING A STATEMENT OR THE WHITE HOUSE RELEASING A STATEMENT THIS MORNING SAYING THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER SHOULD AT LEAST ALLAY SOME OF THOSE FEARS.

>> Bonnie: WELL, BUT, FIRST OF ALL, I MEAN, THERE WERE CRIMES COMMITTED HERE SUCH AS INSURRECTION.

THERE HAS BEEN TALK OF INVOKING THE 20TH -- 25TH AMENDMENT.

VICE PRESIDENT PENCE CERTAINLY RECOGNIZED FINALLY AFTER BEING THE CLOSEST ALLY, THIS VERY ABNORMAL, HIGHLY ABNORMAL PRESIDENT COULD EVER HAVE HOPED FOR FINALLY RECOGNIZED HE WAS NOT -- YOU KNOW, THIS WAS THE AND HE WAS NOT CROSSING OVER THE LINE OF TRYING TO NOT CERTIFY THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION.

DO YOU THINK THE 25TH AMENDMENT SHOULD BE INVOKED, THAT HE SHOULD BE FOUND UNFIT FOR OFFICE?

>> Patrice Leon Onwuka: I DON'T.

I THINK WE TALK ABOUT HIS MENTAL CAPACITIES, THAT'S FOR HIS -- FOR MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS WHO SEE THEM ON A REGULAR BASIS TO MAKE THAT DETERMINATION.

I THINK IT'S HARD FOR THOSE ON THE OUTSIDE TO SAY, WELL, I'M GOING TO CHERRY PICK A TWEET HERE OR THERE AND SAY, OH, THAT ABSOLUTELY RISES TO THE LEVEL YOU CANNOT SAY AN OCCASIONAL TWEET OR A RARE TWEET.

IT'S BEEN NONSTOP.

>> Patrice Leon Onwuka: I WOULD SAY THAT THE AMERICAN CITIZEN -- AMERICAN ELECTORATE ACTUALLY SPOKE.

SO I MEAN, HE HAS TWO WEEKS LEFT IN OFFICE.

I THINK AT THIS POINT IF WE REALLY WANT TO MOVE FORWARD, LET'S THINK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING HAPPEN AFTER THAT.

I'M NOT FOR, AND EVEN THOUGH I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SOME REPUBLICANS WERE NOW JOINING THE COURSE, I STILL DON'T SEE POLITICALLY HOW IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AND I DON'T THINK ENOUGH CABINET MEMBERS ARE STEPPING UP TO SAY THAT THEY WOULD SUPPORT THE EFFORT.

>> Deborah Carnahan: THIS IS OUR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WE DON'T NEED A PSYCHIATRIST TO SAY HE IS NOT FIT FOR OFFICE.

WE HAVE WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON AND THE RECENT EVENTS OF THIS WEEK TO SHOW US THAT THERE WAS EVIDENCE OUT THERE THAT THE DARK WEB WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS, THERE WERE INSTRUCTIONS, THIS WAS NO HUGE SURPRISE WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL THIS WEEK.

THE PLANS WERE OUT THERE.

YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT JUST A FEW PEOPLE THAT DID THIS?

WELL, IT WAS A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT IT WAS ORCHESTRATED.

THEY CAME WITH WEAPONS.

THEY CAME WITH MOLOTOV COCKTAILS.

THEY CAME WITH EXPLOSIVES.

AND THIS WAS NOT JUST, OH, WOW, WE ARE JUST GETTING OUT OF CONTROL HERE.

OF THIS WAS PLANNED.

AND IT WAS NOT JUST EGGED ON, IT WAS INSTRUCTED BY THE PRESIDENT TO MARCH, TO COME, TO GO.

IT REMINDED ME OF THE WICKED WITCH OF THE WEST.

I WAS THINKING THIS MORNING, TELLING HER MONKEYS TO FLY.

YOU KNOW?

AND GO AFTER PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S WHAT HE DID.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

SO, RINA, LET'S GET YOU INTO THIS CONVERSATION.

WHICH ARE THE CONSEQUENCES BE?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: WELL, THE CONSEQUENCES SHOULD BE GRAVE AND THEY SHOULD BE SOME THAT ARE, FRANKLY, RELENTLESS.

THEY SHOWING JUST -- AND IT SEEMS WHEN JOE BIDEN TAKES OFFICE, WE OUGHT TO HOLD JOE ACCOUNT HIS PRESIDENT AND HIS ENABLERS.

THOSE IN ADMINISTRATION AS WELL AS IN CONGRESS WHO PROPPED UP AND WANT TO BE DICTATOR, WHO HAS BEEN PUTTING OUR COUNTRY ON THE COURSE OF AUTOCRACY FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW.AND, BONNIE, YOU KNOW ME, I'VE BEEN COMING ON THE SHOW ABOUT A PART OF A DECADE AND I'M A STAUNCH FISCAL CONSERVATIVE.

I'VE SUPPORTED REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS AND THOSE RUNNING TO BE IN CONGRESS FOR SO MANY YEARS.

AND I'VE NOT BENT OVER BACKWARDS, BUT I WILL SAY, I'VE MADE EXTREME ALLOWANCES TO UNDERSTAND THE SIDE OF CONSERVATIVES AND HOW THEY FEEL AND HOW THEY'RE, HOW THEY FEEL MARGINALIZED BY THE MEDIA.

BUT WHAT WE SAW ON WEDNESDAY, I HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT TO THAT I'M ACTUALLY HAVE A BIT OF AN EMOTIONAL HANGOVER FROM IT ALL.

I WAS UNEXPECTEDLY IN FRONT OF IT ALL FOR ABOUT FIVE HOURS WITH IT -- WITHOUT ANY ESCAPE.

I WAS AT 101 CONSTITUTION AVENUE ON THE ROOFTOP OF THAT BUILDING, JUST NEXT TO AN ATTEMPT ERECTED BY ALEX JONES, A VERY KNOWN BANNED OFF SEVERAL PLATFORMS FOR THE HATE AND VIOLENCE THAT HE INCITES.

I THINK SENATOR MITT ROMNEY'S WORDS WERE SPOT ON ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT FROM THE SENATE CHAMBER IN WHICH HE SAID THIS WAS AN INSURRECTION THAT WAS INCITED BY THE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE TO SAY IT VERY PLAINLY AND VERY CLEARLY WHAT IT WAS.

DONALD J. TRUMP DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE IN THE OVAL OFFICE FOR ANOTHER TWO WEEKS.

I HOPE THAT THE CABINET, THOUGH THEY BE HIS LOYALISTS, WILL DO THE RIGHT THING.

WE'VE SEEN SOME SMALL RESIGNATIONS HERE AND THERE.

THERE ARE TALK OF SOME BIGGER ONES ON THE HILL.

I CAN TELL YOU I'VE DEFINITELY HAD SOME FRIENDS WHO ARE TOYING WITH LEAVING THE THEIR LEADERSHIP OFFICES, GOP LEADERSHIP OFFICES.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED ON WEDNESDAY, AS A FORMER HILL STAFFER, WAS JUST UNCONSCIONABLE.

I ON EVERY LEVEL FEEL SO EMOTIONALLY SHAKEN THAT THIS IS THE STATE OF OUR COUNTRY.

WHEN I WATCHED THE PROTESTERS MAKE THEIR WAY THROUGH THE CLEAVAGE BETWEEN THE SENATE CHAMBER AND THE MAIN BUILDING, WHICH HOUSES THE DOME, THE CAPITOL DOME, I FELT SOMETHING INSIDE ME, SO VERY SCARED AND SO ABSOLUTELY SHAKEN TO MY CORE ABOUT WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN OUR COUNTRY.

I FEAR, DEATH AND VIOLENCE.

WHAT I SAW IN THE AFTERMATH WAS THEY WERE -- >> Bonnie: THERE WERE FOUR DEATHS.

>> THERE WERE FOUR DEATHS.

BUT I FEARED THAT LAWMAKERS LIES AROUND THE LINE PEOPLE LIKE FORMER CONGRESSWOMAN DONNA EDWARDS, WHO I AS A YOUNG STILL HILL STAFFER WOULD GET TO WALK NEXT TO AND WOULD GET TO SEE ON A RELATIVELY REGULAR BASIS.

PEOPLE LIKE DEB WHEN SHE WAS ON THE HILL WITH HER HUSBAND.

I MEAN, THIS IS WHEN YOU WORK ON CAPITOL HILL, IT'S A FAMILY, YOU JUST YOU'RE NOT A REPUBLICAN, YOU'RE NOT A DEMOCRAT, OR AT LEAST IT USED TO BE THAT WAY.

10 YEARS AGO, WHEN I PACKED UP MY BAGS TO LEAVE AND BECOME A POLITICAL OPERATIVE.

I REMEMBER A PLACE THAT THAT EMBRACED PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF PARTY LINES, I'M HORRIFIED AS TO WHAT THE STATE OF AFFAIRS IS IN OUR COUNTRY, BECAUSE IF IT'S THIS WAY, IF IT'S LAWMAKERS WHO WERE REPUBLICANS STANDING ON THE HOUSE FLOOR ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT SAYING THIS WAS ANTIFA WHEN WE KNOW FULL WELL THAT THE PRESIDENT SIGNAL THE PROUD BOYS IN A DEBATE WITH JOE BIDEN?

HAT ARE WE DOING HERE?RE WE LYING TO OURSELVES HERE?

DO WE NOT CARE FOR ONE ANOTHER ANYMORE?

WHAT ARE WE WILLING TO TREAT EACH OTHER LIKE ANYMORE?

BLACK AND BROWN LIVES -- >> Bonnie: BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS MOVING FORWARD: THERE HAVE BEEN NOTHING BUT LIES SINCE THE BEGINNING FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION.

JOE BIDEN HAS A BIG BASKET OF EGGS THAT HE'S GOT TO SORT THROUGH AS PRESIDENT.

IF HE DOES ALL OF THIS RETRIBUTION OLD STUFF, WITH WHICH THE 70 -- THE 80 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR HIM, MANY OF WHOM WANT HIM TO TAKE WERE TRIBUTE OF THE ACTION, WHAT DOES HE DO TO THE 71 MILLION PEOPLE WERE 74 MILLION PEOPLE, I'M SORRY, VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP?

OR IS IT A LOST CAUSE TO GET ANY OF THIS PEOPLE TO EVER, EVER CONSIDER SUPPORTING A DEMOCRAT OR SUPPORTING A UNITED COUNTRY?

I MEAN, REALLY, WHAT WE SAW THIS WEEK WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE CIVIL WAR AGAIN, OR THE RUN UP TO THE CIVIL WAR, WHERE SENATOR SUMTER WAS BEATEN INTO COMPLETE DISABILITY FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE BY ANOTHER MEMBER OF CONGRESS WITH HIS CANE BECAUSE THE FACTIONS WERE SO HORRIBLY -- WERE HITTING EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE WE HAVE ON CAPITOL HILL TODAY.

HOW DOES BIDEN BALANCE THOSE TWO THINGS?

>> Donna Edwards: LOOK, BONNIE.

I THINK THAT BIDEN BALANCES THAT BY GOVERNING.

BUT YOU CANNOT LOOK PAST THIS.

IF WE LOOK PAST WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK, THEN WE WILL BE COMPLICIT IN ENDORSING THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR FOR THE FUTURE.

AND SO, THERE IS PLENTY OF VIDEO OUT THERE.

THE FBI, LAW ENFORCEMENT, INDEPENDENT DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, NOW GOING TO BE HEADED BY MERRICK GARLAND, SHOULD BE REVIEWING ALL OF THE VIDEO, LOOKING AT ALL OF THOSE SPACES, IDENTIFYING THESE PEOPLE AS DOMESTIC TERRORISTS AND PROSECUTING THEM.

AND AS FAR AS THE LAWMAKERS GO, I THINK IF KEVIN McCARTHY IS SERIOUS ABOUT MOVING FORWARD, THEN HE NEEDS TO STRIP THEM OF THEIR COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENTS.

IF KEVIN McCARTHY AND MITCH McCONNELL ARE SERIOUS, THEY NEED TO PULL BACK ON THE SEDITIOUS SIX IN THE SENATE AND THEN THE 138 OR SO IN THE HOUSE WHO SUPPORTED THIS SEDITION AND THIS INSURRECTION.

I THINK THAT THERE IS NO MORE EXCUSE.

I WORKED IN THOSE BUILDINGS FOR ALMOST A DECADE, AND I AM -- I AM UNDONE WITH MY MOTION ABOUT HOW I FEEL OF SEEING THOSE HISTORIC WINDOWS BASHED THROUGH AN CONFEDERATE FLAGS MARCHED THROUGH THE STATUARY HALL.

I MEAN, THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

WE NEED TO IDENTIFY THEM, WE NEED TO PROSECUTE THEM, AND WE NEED TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

>> Bonnie: LET'S MOVE TO A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS: TWITTER TEMPORARILY CLOSED THE PRESIDENT'S ACCOUNT, FACEBOOK IS NOW DOING THE SAME.

HOW MUCH OF THE MEDIA RESPONSIBLE FOR ALLOWING THE PRESIDENT TO PROPOUND HIS INSURRECTIONIST, SEDITIOUS MESSAGE?

>> Donna Edwards: YOU KNOW, I MEAN, I THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT OF COMPLICITY, FRANKLY.

ALL OF THE BETTER PART OF FOUR YEARS WHERE EVERY SINGLE RALLY, EVERY SINGLE EVENT WAS TELEVISED, YOU KNOW, SORT OF FROM ONE END OF THE MICROPHONE TO THE OTHER END OF THE MICROPHONE.

THERE WAS A POINT AT WHICH SOME OF THE MEDIA OUTLETS STOP COVERING HIM, WHICH I THINK WAS REALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF BLAME TO BE CAST, BUT IT REALLY RESTS WITH LEADERS AND LAWMAKERS WHO SAT QUIETLY.

WE HAVE THE RESIGNATIONS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE THIS WEEK OF MICK MULVANEY AND OTHER ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS.

TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE.

THEY DON'T GET A PASS.

THEY DON'T GET TO BE HEROES BECAUSE BECAUSE THEY DECIDED TO WALK AWAY AT THE POINT WHEN THERE WAS A BIT INSURRECTION WHEN THEY'RE RIGHT DIDN'T WALK AWAY WITH EVERYTHING ELSE WAS WILL GOING ON WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION.

THERE IS A LOT OF ACCOUNTABILITY TO GO AROUND.

>> Patrice Leon Onwuka: THE BONNIE, HERE'S A QUESTION ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE MEDIAN SOCIAL MEDIA.

I THINK THERE MEDIA, BECAUSE IT SHOWS HOW TO COVER AND WHAT THE COVER OF THE ADMINISTRATION, FOCUSING ON THOSE HIGH-VALUE, HIGH SHOCK VALUE OPPORTUNITIES AND LESS ON POLICY, THAT'S WHAT DROVE THE PRESIDENT TO UTILIZE SOCIAL MEDIA, TO GET HIS MESSAGES AND TO GET HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS OUT THERE.

LIKE IT OR NOT, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

AND SO, I THINK WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE MEDIA, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T TRUST THE MEDIA BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO NOT COVER.

AND I'M NOT JUST PULLING -- NOT JUST SAYING THATHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PEW, PEW POLLING, OF PUBLIC, THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION, PEOPLE ARE WORRIED THAT THERE ARE SO MANY STORIES THAT DO NOT GET COVERED.

I THINK THE HUNTER BIDEN STORIES, IT'S AN INTERESTING EXAMPLE AT THE END TOWARDS THE TAIL END OF THIS ELECTION CYCLE, BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO THINK ABOUT HOW DO, YOU KNOW, WHAT REALLY GIVE THE PRESIDENT A LOT OF POWER AND WHY HE TURNED TO SOCIAL MEDIA, IT'S BECAUSE THE MEDIA CHOSE TO BE -- TO USE THE RALLIES AND THE THINGS THAT SEEMED TO BE SHOCK VALUE OVER THE ACTUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS OR THE POLICIES THAT WERE ENACTING.

AND I THINK THAT WAS A DETRIMENT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> Rina Shah Bharara: TO THE QUESTION OF CAN BIDEN FIX THIS ALL, CAN BIDEN UNIFY US, WHAT WAS REALLY PUT ON DISPLAY THIS PAST WEEK WAS HOW AWFUL LEADERSHIP WE HAVE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

TRULY WE NEED TO ELECT BETTER LEADERS AT ALL LEVELS OF U.S. GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE BIDEN CANNOT FIX THIS AND NONE OF THEM CAN FIX IT EITHER.

IT'S INCUMBENT UPON EACH OF US.

I MUST SAY THAT'S WHAT OUR FOUNDERS WANTED.

THEY WANTED EACH OF US TO DO OUR PART IN ORDER TO STRIVE TOWARDS A MORE PERFECT UNION, FOR THIS NATION AS A WHOLE TO STRIVE TOWARDS A MORE PERFECT UNION.

I WAKE UP IN THE MORNING AND I HAVE TWO KIDS UNDER THE AGE OF FIVE AND A LISTEN TO THEIR CAR TO!

THE OTHER DAY AND LISTEN TO CLIFFORD THE DOG ON PBS TALKING ABOUT HOW TOGETHER WE ACHIEVE MORE AND DIVIDED WE FALL.

THESE ARE VERY ELEMENTARY THEMES.

THESE ARE BASIC THEMES THAT WE GIVE TO OUR SCHOOLCHILDREN WHEN THEY GO TO SCHOOL.

WHAT ARE WE DOING AS A SOCIETY WHEN WE ALLOW EACH OTHER TO HATE EACH OTHER SO MUCH AND TO CONSUME PIECES OF INFORMATION THAT WE KNOW IS THAT RIGHT?

AND IT'S SALACIOUS MATERIAL THAT IS FLOATING AROUND, MASQUERADING AS FACT, BUT IT'S REALLY JUST OPINION.

SO THE ENTIRE AMERICAN MEDIA COMPLEX IS SO, I THINK, ABSOLUTELY BROKEN ON EVERY LEVEL, THAT NO ONE PERSON CAN FIX IT, LEADERS CAN FIX IT.

EACH OF US HAVE TO DIG VERY RESPONSIBLY OUR ROLE.

NUMBER ONE, WE SHOULD BE CANCELING SUBSCRIPTIONS TO OUTLETS WE DO NOT FEEL ARE DOING THEIR PART.

LAST YEAR, I CANCELED MY TO THE NATIONAL REVIEW.

I FELT THAT THE THINGS THEY WERE PRINTING I COULD NO LONGER IN GOOD FAITH GIVE THEM MY MONEY.

AND THAT'S JUST ONE SUCH EXAMPLE.

LISTEN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT MARGINALIZING CONSERVATIVE VOICES AND GIVING RISE TO A SUPPOSED LIBERAL MEDIA.

>> Bonnie: EVEN IF CNN, ABC, CBS, PBS, YOU KNOW, YOU NAME IT, WERE SHOT DOWN TOTALLY, YOU WOULD STILL HAVE THE DARK WEB.

AND MANY MILLIONS OF HIS FOLLOWERS ARE ON THE DARK WEB.

SO MY POINT IS MAINSTREAM MEDIA MAY NOT BE THE MAIN PERPETRATORS OF THIS PROBLEM HERE.

>> Donna Edwards: I DISAGREE -- I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU AND I THINK THIS IS THE REASON THAT WE CANNOT THINK ABOUT THIS AS POLICING MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

YOU KNOW, GOING ON TO THOSE SOURCES, I MEAN, THOSE ARE THE SOURCES, FRANKLY, THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN USING TO PROPER GREAT INTO INSIGHT.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO TAKE A DIFFERENT TACK, BUT I DO, RINA, BELIEVE THAT IT BEGINS WITH LEADERSHIP.

WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR LEADERS WHO ARE UNWILLING TO SPEAK THAT TRUTH TO POWER, THEN YOU HAVE A FAILED DEMOCRACY.

WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ABLE TO SAY WHAT THE TRUTH IS AND TO FACE THEIR CONSTITUENTS, EVEN IF THEIR CONSTITUENTS WANT THEM TO DO SOMETHING ELSE, THAT'S THE TEST OF COURAGE.

THAT IS THE TEST OF LEADERSHIP, NOT WHEN SOMEBODY JUST SORT OF FALLS IN THE CROWD.

JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE THE INCOMING SHOT!

AND SO, I THINK THAT IS ONE WAY THAT YOU BEGIN TO ADDRESS PEOPLE'S ACCESS AND USE TO THE MEDIA THAT DOES NOT DISCERN THE TRUTH.

DATE THINK WE ALSO HAVE NOT SAID ENOUGH ABOUT SOME OF THE REALLY IMPORTANT AND AMAZING INVESTIGATIVE PRINT JOURNALISM THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE OVER THESE LAST FOUR YEARS, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HAS HELPED US TO UPROOT SOME OF THIS.

AND SO, LET'S NOT DOWNPLAY THAT PART OF MEDIA IN HIS ENVIRONMENT AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: LASTLY -- [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: REMEMBER, WE ARE GOING ON OUR 30TH, THE LAUNCH OF OUR 30TH SEASON IN TWO MONTHS, AND I REMEMBER 25 YEARS AGO, IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAD HAPPENED, THE FIRST THING I WOULD ASK MYSELF IS, IF WOMEN WERE IN CHARGE, WOULD IT HAVE BEEN ANY DIFFERENT?

AND OF COURSE WITH THE CAPITOL POLICE AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH WHAT LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE BLAMING AS LACK OF PERSONNEL, LACK OF PREPARATION FOR THE INSURRECTION THAT DID TAKE PLACE, THE VIOLENCE, THE TWO PIPE BOMBS THAT WERE FOUND, ONE INSIDE THE CAPITOL, THAT ALL OF THIS IS PREVENTABLE IF THEY HAD JUST NOT -- IF THEY HAD BEEN READY FOR THE MOB AND HAD MORE ARMED CAPITOL POLICE OR NATIONAL GUARD OUTSIDE, THE VARIOUS ENTRANCES TO THE CAPITOL, FENDING OFF THE, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO STORM THE CAPITOL, BUT IN THIS CASE, WE HAD NANCY PELOSI IN CHARGE ON THE OUTSIDE AND A MAN OF COURSE, MITCH McCONNELL ON THE SENATE.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY THE NATIONAL GUARD, IS USUALLY SOMETHING CALLED UPPER THE PRESIDENT.

BUT WAS THERE ENOUGH FEMALE INVOLVEMENT IN LOOKING AT THIS THING BEFOREHAND?

AND WHERE -- WHO DO WE BLAME FOR THE FAILURE?

[CROSS TALK] >> Donna Edwards: YEAH.

I DON'T KNOW.

TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CAPITOL AND TO WATCH THOSE PICTURES, FIRST OF ALL, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THEY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN PREPARED AND FORTIFIED THE CAPITOL.

THE CAPITOL RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY HAVE PUBLIC VISITORS WHO ARE COMING BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

I THINK THERE ARE SO MANY QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED, AND THIS IS GOING TO REQUIRE A DEEP DIVE IN INVESTIGATION, BECAUSE IF THESE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BREACH THE CAPITOL, THEN THE FOREIGN TERRORISTS CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO BREACH THE CAPITOL.

>> Deborah Carnahan: WHAT IF THIS WAS A GROUP OF FOREIGN NATIONALS THAT WERE MARCHING?

WOULD IT HAVE BEEN THE SAME?

YOU KNOW, WHAT IF -- >> Donna Edwards: WHAT IF IT WAS A GROUP OF BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTERS WERE MARCHING?

WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN TREATED THE SAME'S?

>> Deborah Carnahan: LET'S REMEMBER, BONNIE, FOUR YEARS AGO WAS PART OF THE WOMEN'S MUCH.

IT WAS A GREAT EXPERIENCE, BUT THEY TRIED TO SHUT US DOWN BECAUSE THERE WAS A PERMIT FOR 400,000 PEOPLE, AND MILLIONS SHOWED UP AND THEY WERE TRYING TO TELL THE WOMEN AND MEN WHO WERE THERE, MY HUSBAND WAS THERE AS WELL, THAT WE COULD NOT MARCH DOWN CONSTITUTION AVENUE BECAUSE WE HAD MORE PEOPLE THAN THE PERMIT.

IF THEY WERE EXERCISING THAT TYPE OF CONTROL OVER THE WOMEN'S MARCH, MY GOD, YOU HAD EVERY MEMBER OF CONGRESS ON THE HILL YESTERDAY.

SORRY.

A COUPLE DAYS AGO.

IN THE VICE PRESIDENT THERE AND THIS IS ALL THEY HAD?

>> Patrice Leon Onwuka: ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU, LADIES.

WE SHOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY BEEN ON GUARD.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO IS PROTESTING.

IF ARE GOING TO -- UNFORTUNATELY, WE'VE ENTERED INTO THE WORLD WHERE PROTEST, PEACEFUL, FIRST AMENDMENT PROTESTS GET HIJACKED.

AND SO, I THINK OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS TO PROBABLY TAKE THAT MINDSET THAT WHETHER IT'S BLACK LIVES MATTERS OR WHETHER IT'S MAGA SUPPORTERS, THEY PROBABLY HAVE TO BE MORE THOUGHTFUL ABOUT WHAT -- HOW THE SITUATION COULD ESCALATE VERY QUICKLY.

>> Bonnie: RINA, LAST WORD.

>> Rina Shah Bharara: WELL, I CANNOT OVERSTATE, BONNIE, HOW DARK WEDNESDAY'S EVENTS WERE FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

IT WAS A WEAK AND PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO GO, AND THOUGH IT WAS THAT, IT WAS INDEED STILL A COUP.

AND EVEN THOUGH FOUR YEARS OF PASSION AND POPULISM HAS BEEN THERE AND A NEAR PUBLIC LOYALTY TO THE PRESIDENT WAS THERE, CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS STILL RESISTED THE URGE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

THERE WERE STILL THOSE WHO OBJECTED TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, HIS BOAT BEING CERTIFIED.

SO LOOK, IT'S CERTAINLY NEVER POSITIVE TO GET THIS CLOSE TO THE BRINK OF CONSTITUTIONAL COLLAPSE.

BUT THERE WERE PROFILES AND COURAGE AND AND THAT WAS A SLIM, THERE WAS A VERY SLIM ACCOUNT OF AMERICAN HEROES ECOUNTS, IN THE PAST ADJUSTED THAT WHEN AMERICAN BASICALLY THE STRENGTH OF AMERICA HAS HINGED ON BRAVERY AND THE CONSCIENCE OF ITS PEOPLE.

IT'S ONLY BEEN A FEW GOOD STEWARDS, WHO WILL SAY LET'S HOLD ONTO OUR SACRED TRADITION.

SO WHAT THIS WEEK REALLY HIGHLIGHTED FOR ME AT THE END IS THAT OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS HAVE HELD, THEY BENT BUT THEY DIDN'T BREAK AND TRUMP WAS DEFEATED, AND HE'S NOW SURELY GOING TO BE PERMANENTLY DISGRACED.

SO I THINK WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS A NEW URGENCY TO WORK FOR CIVIC RENEWAL.

WE HAVE TO STRENGTHEN THE BONDS THAT UNITE US AND BUILD THE CAPACITY FOR CHANGE.

I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE, I REALLY BELIEVE IN ALL OF US TO BE A PART OF THAT.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

WE WILL BE WATCHING THE DEVELOPMENTS AS PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN BECOMES PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SEE IF IT ALL POSSIBLE THIS COUNTRY CAN BE REUNITED AT LEAST TO THE POINT WHERE THE TWO SIDES CAN WORK TOGETHER.

HAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

PLEASE FOLLOW US ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK, AND INSTAGRAM.

PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE, www.PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.