- [Narrator] We all want to belong.

We want respect and understanding.

We want someone to have our back.

We want a better life for the ones we love.

That's why over a million of us are members of BECU, because we know that together we can do so much more than we ever could apart.

It's not banking as usual.

And that's exactly the point.

So join us.

BECU, you more than just money.

- Hello, and thank you for joining us.

I'm Mark Baumgarten, managing editor for Crosscut, and your host for the At-Large series, where we talk about the biggest issues with the journalists that know them best.

Tonight, those journalists are Leah Sottile and Bill Morlin, and the issues are insurrection domestic terror and white supremacy.

A couple of quick notes before we begin, there will be an audience Q&A at the end of the event.

YoU can submit a question in the chat that you'll see on the right-hand of your screen, right over here.

Also, before we get going I'd like to say thank you to BECU for sponsoring this series.

They've provided financial services and support to the community for over 85 years.

Events such as these are not possible without our sponsors.

So thank you.

So, it seems like the first chapter of the January 6th insurrection has come to a close with the acquittal of former president, Donald Trump in his impeachment trial this past weekend.

It was a short trial.

A lot of that had to do with the fact that the evidence had already been shared widely on social and mainstream media.

The perpetrators were not really shy about their actions.

It was through these images and recordings that the impeachment managers reconstructed the storming of the US Capitol by a mob of Trump supporters.

These were Americans, the vast majority white, many armed, some bearing symbols of white supremacy, and they were clashing violently with police while espousing violent rhetoric, calling for the reversal of a democratic election in the very seat of our democracy.

The Senate decided to acquit the former president, but he still faces criminal probes and possible civil litigation.

In some ways, the repercussions of this event on the former president and his party have only just begun.

But the reality is this isn't the first chapter of this story.

The forces that brought those Americans to the Capitol have been unfolding for decades, maybe even longer.

And this was never likely to serve as an epilogue for this story either.

Even if Donald Trump had been convicted.

So I'm grateful to have two journalists who have spent decades reporting on the militia movement in the Pacific Northwest here to explain where this all came from and where we as a country may be headed.

Leah Sottile is a freelance journalist who is best known as the host of Bundy Ville, a podcast that tells the story of the anti-government actions of the Bundy family, including their armed uprising at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

She's also host of the podcast Two Minutes Past Nine, which looks at the legacy of the Oklahoma City bombings.

And she is a contributor to High Country News.

Bill Morlin was a long time staff writer at the Spokesman Review where he covered the armed standoff at Ruby Ridge in 1992.

And he's currently at work on a book about the Aryan Nations.

He is also Leah's mentor.

Leah, Bill, thanks for joining us.

- Thanks for having us.

- So, I'd like to start this conversation last month, and I wonder how you saw the events of January 6th.

As that mob stormed the capital, Leah, what was running through your mind?

- It was a really difficult thing to watch.

I mean, I think that, I'm sure Bill would probably agree with me.

You know, you cover this stuff for a long time and you maybe saw some predictability in what was happening there.

This was something that people have been talking about for a really, really long time.

So, they were in a way just coming good on the thing they'd always talked about, but I think as a person, it was just still really difficult to watch.

- Bill, what about you?

What did you see?

- Yes, I agree completely with Leah's observations.

It was a storm that was long in the making.

I mean, some of us could see it coming clear back in 2016, and it just gathered significant momentum, obviously coming to a head there on the very day that Congress was going to certify the electoral college vote.

And I think there was a lot more pre-planning than anyone currently knows.

So, I'm very enthused about the forthcoming congressional inquiry kind of a 9/11 type investigation that will fully get to the bottom of all of this.

I don't think, we only know a smattering of the information behind what happened on that tragic day.

- So, and I'm wondering, you know, I want to stay on this for a little bit because you know, you both are looking at this with eyes that are trained to see the markings of malicious white supremacy.

What did you do when you were watching it, were you seeing your journalism that you had been doing sort of playing out on the screen?

Were there things that you were noticing that you think other Americans weren't noticing?

- I mean, one thing that I definitely noticed right off the bat was the heavy presence of QAnon symbology there, people wearing Oath Keepers hats.

I mean, the Oath Keepers were present at the 2014 standoff down in Bunny Ranch in Nevada, the 2016 occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

Those were things that I saw, but also really this sort of parading out of patriotic imagery as anti-patriotic.

That's something that, I think a lot of people have asked me about before is these folks call themselves part of the Patriot movement.

And yet what they're doing seems very opposite of patriotic.

And that definitely, I mean, was what we were seeing was this wearing of the Trump flags as capes and this embracing of anti-government as patriotic was definitely something I was noticing.

- As the events unfolded on my television, I immediately sensed the presence of white supremacy and white nationalists.

And it was like, here's their show.

And Trump is pounding the drum and let's go at it.

And many of these people, ironically claim to support law enforcement and police, but yet they're using flagpoles, and sticks and pipes, and fire extinguish to beat the very police that they say they support.

Just one of many ironies that I saw.

But the presence of white nationalists using this as a vehicle to further their message, to further network with each other, these various groups that were there.

And I think the number was pretty impressive.

And you could see their symbols pretty easily, from you know, Three Percenters, and Oath Keepers to Boogaloo, to QAnon, to straight MAGA supporters, people that are just dyed in the wool Trump supporters that aren't necessarily affiliated with any white nationalist groups, but they all sort of came together in this huge melting pot.

And it was, it was like almost one-upmanship, and like, let's go do this.

It was just a fever that seemed to catch on.

And it was stunning to see.

- Hmm, all right.

So in order to make more sense of what happened last month, I really want to take advantage of all of the work that both of you have done and go back a few decades.

You know, Bill you've said that the modern militia movement was born out of Ruby Ridge which as I mentioned, you reported on.

A few years later, we saw that militia movement really reach a kind of apex with the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, which Leah you have focused a lot of your work on in the last year.

Can we draw a straight line between then and now?

And what is that line?

Bill, what about Ruby Ridge?

What does Ruby Ridge tell us about what's happening right now?

- Well, I'd like to back it up even a little farther than that, because before Ruby Ridge in '92, we had the Aryan Nations set up shop here in North Idaho in about 1980.

And the Aryan Nations on an annual basis would be hosting annual Congress of different far-right groups ranging from the Klan, to neo-Nazis to Christian identity forces and others.

And so they sort of became one of the early melting pots that promoted some of these anti-government notions, and it's changed shape and form, and the labels have changed, and some of the costumes have changed, costumes, I say.

But then with Ruby Ridge, that's where the anti-government flavor really kicked up, because clearly there was some government accesses at Ruby Ridge in 1992.

And the far right used that as a reason to sort of advance the anti-government message.

And within a year or so of Ruby Ridge, a lot of what we now call militia groups around the country, including those in Michigan and elsewhere started forming.

And their main message was anti-government.

We're not going to let the FBI, or federal forces coming to our neck of the woods for any reason, we're in control.

And then you add into all that, the notion of these constitutional sheriffs who say only the local sheriffs can support the law of the land.

The feds have no authority over our vast natural resources, Bureau land management lands, and so forth.

It's sort of a we hate the feds attitude.

And it just grew from Ruby Ridge, up until, what we saw then in 1995 at the Oklahoma City bombing where a bomb was planted outside a federal building, and took what 160 some lives.

So, it's been a growing momentum.

And before I need to defer to Leah, but one of the things that bares mentioning is that the American public, from my point of view having studied this since 1980, they don't pay attention unless there's an Oklahoma City, unless there's a riot at the U S Capitol, unless there's Ruby Ridge.

In between time, we all go back to sleep, and people just don't pay attention to what the heck is going on around them.

And we, after 9/11 we're all worried about foreign terrorists.

When in fact in this country, there's a far bigger threat from homegrown domestic terrorists.

- Hmm, well, just to add on to that before we talk to you, Leah, about Oklahoma City.

You know, in 1995, Ruby Ridge was still a part of the national conversation.

Perhaps even more so than it was in '92.

And then you have the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, and domestic terrorism is really at a height.

I mean, just awareness among Americans.

And I wonder as you talk about this thread, Leah if you could also speak to us about what did we see in the government response then, and how does it compare to what we're seeing right now?

- I think that, Oklahoma City is...

I've spent the last year working on why it's relevant now.

And some of the things that jumped to mind when thinking about it is that Timothy McVeigh the perpetrator of that bombing was very jaded from his time in the military.

He came home, he was very listless.

Didn't quite know what to do with these skills that he had acquired over there.

And, I've spoke to somebody that was abroad with him during the Iraq war.

And he mentioned that he felt like they weren't really conditioned to figure out what to do with those skills when they came home and where to direct that energy of enemies and where corruption was happening and things like that.

So McVeigh then took to the gun culture circuit to find new friends and new people, and a new community.

And he found the militia movement there.

So, he was also really fired up about anti-government conspiracy theories.

That there was some sort of swamp you might say that needed to be drained in DC and that it would be gun holders and militias that would fix that.

So, what we saw on January 6th was really that playing out in real life was these conspiracy theories.

Again, coming to a head like Bill said.

In '95, we saw this horrific bombing that killed 168 people, mostly kids.

And I'm sorry, not mostly kids, but many children, and the world forgot about it.

And I think that Bill makes a really good point wit 9/11.

We saw this really, I want to say marketing of the term terrorist in America, that a terrorist became a certain thing.

And that certain thing was not white, was not Christian.

When in reality, experts in the FBI have been saying that this is our biggest problem, that homegrown terrorism is our biggest problem, but I think it's a lot more difficult for Americans to look inward instead of looking outward at something, and being able to villainize an entire group of people.

I think the other thing that was interesting in '95, too was that Timothy McVeigh was very emboldened to do what he did because of the Waco.

What happened out in Waco, Texas, the Waco standoff.

And there started to be this thing that I'm sure that Bill observed at Ruby Ridge, this idea that the government was gonna come after people who live differently.

And, and in that case, you know when that narrative that you see now on Netflix shows and things like that about Waco is that these were just folks that were religious and wanted to live differently.

They were also manufacturing firearms illegally.

There was a gun element in that case that really fired up a very specific group of people.

And McVeigh also went to the Waco standoff to see what was going on there and to sell pro gun anti-government bumper stickers to people.

So, this is all kind of the soup that's been boiling I think for a very long time that we saw bubble over this year.

- You know, one of the things I think I was reading a piece from Jess Walters, who is a colleague of Bill's when both were covering Ruby Ridge.

Talking about how there was this, about how there are two ways to look at Ruby Ridge.

I imagine there are two ways to look at all of these issues, and one is as government overreach, and the other is as this violent militia movement driven by white supremacy, and it's exposure.

And to me, it felt like we were, it's where we're seeing this sort of separation of two realities.

And it feels like that has only metastasized in the last few years.

And I wonder if you Leah, in your recent reporting, do you see people refer to Ruby Ridge as being something that is a knock against the government?

I mean, are the people in these militias who maybe don't identify as white supremacists, or necessarily follow in the steps of Aryan Nations, do they still look at these moments as being examples of government excess?

- Absolutely, I think one great example is to look at this flag that is often flown by people who adhere to the Boogaloo movement.

Which, you know, Mark we've talked about that before on your podcast.

The Boogaloo being this kind of new, young anti-government movement that is very focused on violence and they fly a flag that has a bunch of different names written on the stripes of a sort of quasi American flag.

And among those are, Vicki and Sam Weaver who were part of the Weaver family that was killed during the Ruby Ridge standoff.

You've also got people who have been subject to no-knock police warrants, like Breonna Taylor and Duncan Limp, young man in Maryland.

And you've got a militia guy, LaVoy Finicum, who was president at the 2016 Malheur National Wildlife Refuge standoff.

So this is all to say, these are all thought of as martyrs of government overreach.

And that's something that, I didn't specifically look for that flag in the Capitol on January 6th, but I have no doubt that it was there being flown as a reminder that this is a long story that the anti-government movement has been telling itself about the people who are their martyrs that they need to remember.

- Hmm, you know, another thing that you brought up Leah that I wanted to to follow up on is the military background of Timothy McVeigh.

Randy Weaver also had a military background, right?

He was a Green Beret.

And what we're seeing right now as we see the people who are being associated with the insurrection is that a lot of these people have taken sworn oaths to to protect and serve their fellow citizens, or to protect the country and the military.

And here they are storming the Capitol.

And I wonder Bill, if this is something that emerged in the nineties, or has there always been an element of military and law enforcement involvement in these groups going back to, as you said the Aryan Nations in these earlier iterations?

- I think there's been an involvement, a clear involvement of ex military, and in some instances even active military in far right groups.

There have been several high-profile cases in the last decade where various skinhead type groups have been involved in some pretty heavy duty quasi, I think of one that occurred, oh gosh, eight years ago, or so.

I believe the Georgia, and the military trains people to...

When you go in the military, you're not the same person as when you come out of the military.

I think those of us who were in military service would agree with that.

It just essentially, let's face it, the military at least US Army, they teach people how to kill people.

And there's really no deprogramming when you leave the military, and some of us can handle it.

And some people obviously can't handle it.

And a lot of people are still reliving.

I know some friends of mine, and other people in my age group, they're still fighting the Vietnam War.

I mean, they think the wrong side, the U S should have never given up.

And I was noticing that even at the Capitol riot, there were South Vietnamese flags flying there, from people who think that we caved into the Communists, and that the South Vietnamese flag should still means something.

So, the presence of military folks and ex-military people in these groups is not a surprise, and it needs to be rooted out.

Also, the thing that also is somewhat surprising is the number of law enforcement.

According to the preliminary reporting that I've seen, I think from the New York Times, there were at least, authorities and the justice department identified at least 30 law enforcement officers from throughout the United States who were present in this crowd.

Now, not all of them were necessarily went in the Capitol, but they were there at the rally, and they were there egging people on supposedly.

And I mean, that's a significant number, including I might point out at least six officers from the Seattle police department.

I mean, should that come as a surprise to the taxpayers of Seattle?

And what is the Seattle police department doing about, are they going to allow these sort of people that believe we paid to uphold the law, to in fact be involved with breaking the law?

What a contrast, various serious questions out there.

- Hm.

- I think that was something too that we noticed.

Bill and I have both reported on protests in Portland over the last four or five years.

And one thing that has...

It's almost become a joke at this point that the Portland police seemed to really protect these groups of proud boys, white supremacists, these far right groups that come out flying militia flags, wearing racist t-shirts and things like that.

While unleashing fury on thousands of peaceful protesters there to air, air their grievances about the Trump administration or to March for Black Lives Matter.

So in a way, you know I think that your question Mark is truly one of the biggest questions of this insurrection is how do we figure this out?

How is it that, like Bill said, do we deprogram people when they come home from wars?

But why is it that law enforcement is so attractive to people with antigovernment ideas, and people who are frankly, conspiracy theorists?

- Well, you know there is a cognitive dissonance when you see people flying the thin blue line flag in line with people who are beating police officers at the Capitol.

There is just a cognitive dissonance there.

And I don't know if I've ever seen anything like that before.

It was, it was... That, to me was probably the most shocking thing.

I would have, yeah.

I just wouldn't have guessed that would happen.

So, Bill, you mentioned that would we be, or should we be surprised that we saw at least six police officers who were in DC at the time of this event?

We don't know what exactly their involvement was, but they were there at the rally.

It kind of brings about this question, which is that why is the Pacific Northwest a place where this is happening?

And to really pull on the threads of history a little bit more, why is Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Why are these places so attractive to people who have anti-government white supremacist views?

- Well, I guess I give some credit to Richard Butler.

When he set up shop in 1980, and he was here until his passing in 2004, he urged people move to the Northwest at those states you just named, and he called it a whites only Homeland.

And you know what, there've been a lot of police officers particularly from California who have moved to North Idaho.

I mean, it's a significant number.

And a lot of these folks, like the outdoors, like fishing and hunting, and they come here for reasons other than Butler's message of white nationalism.

I'm not trying to brand them all in that manner, but it's a great place to live.

Those of us who live here.

We like the Pacific Northwest, and it's become real attractive.

And then when you had the Aryans set up shop as they did, and... You know, some people viewed them as sort of the circus clowns.

They're just a bunch of guys up there burning crosses in Klan uniforms.

But some of their messages actually have now worked their way into mainstream.

And again, it's one of those things that people really haven't paid a lot of attention to.

I was just looking at some of my old notes.

In the the 1980s, for example, when one of his many so-called world congresses that Butler hosted up there, one of his messages were, and these were his words.

He said, "The mongrel hordes from Mexico "were invading the United States."

And I was thinking, how different is that from Donald Trump saying in 2019 or 2018 that rapists and murderers and criminals were invading the United States from Mexico?

It's the same message.

I mean, one was from a renowned racist, and another one was from our former president, who was definitely doing winks and nods, I believe to white nationalists and to white supremacists.

So some of these messages that, decades ago were messages of the extreme have now crept into mainstream politics.

I think Hillary Clinton in 2016, when she was running for the presidency, she used the term deplorables, and people sort of forgot about that.

But she nailed them right on, I mean, some of these people, even in 2016 that were talking about some of these things, and once Trump was in the White House, boom the small spark blossomed into a big flame, and we saw the results on January 6th.

- I think one thing too, that I've observed in Oregon where I live is that this goes back to the founding of the state itself, that Oregon was set up as a place where people weren't even allowed to bring their slaves.

It was set up to be an all white state, you know.

And I know that goes back into the 1800s, but I think that that goes into the systems that have have come to set up this place.

I think the other thing, too, is that the Northwest you know, and when I talk about the Northwest over into even Montana, these are places where the economy has been really set up on extractive industries.

So timber, mining, things of that nature.

When we saw the Bundy's take over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in 2016, that was sort of the heart of some of their grievances was saying that change away that taking the money away from their pockets and thinking about the environment and things like that were sort of one way to get people into the conversation, and sort of suck them into a funnel that you may be upset about ranching, but let me also tell you about these anti-government conspiracy theories.

So a lot of times I think that the Northwest has had folks who have a particularly Northwest grievance that then allows them to recruit people into these wider more unprovable conspiracy theories.

- So, Leah, I wanted to just ask you about the Bundy's and the two actions, the two incidents, the two events that you've covered pretty extensively that served as precursors to the Trump administration.

And I'm curious, does all this happen if Cliven Bundy doesn't make his stand in Nevada?

How does history play out differently?

Or does it really matter that much?

- I'm sure Bill will have opinions on this, too.

Bill and I actually met while we were covering the trial for the Bundy's for their 2014 standoff in Las Vegas.

So, just a quick recap on those events.

2014, Cliven Bundy decides to call in the militias when the federal government comes to collect his cattle, to round up his cattle, because for over 20 years, he has not paid the required grazing fees to graze on public land.

That goes off in his favor.

The government backs down, he keeps his cattle.

The militia movement calls it a huge victory.

Two years later, 2016 his two sons, two of his sons, I should say, go and take over a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon.

And they do this sort of to come to the aid of a family of ranchers, who I won't even get into their legal battles, but that goes on for 41 days.

And they are acquitted of all charges, with that trial by a jury of their peers.

So, I'm not sure that you could say directly that because of those two events, because Cliven Bundy won that battle.

I guess he likes to say in, in Bunkerville, Nevada that the insurrection happened.

But I do think that it gave a bit of permission to the movement to say, "Hey, we pointed literal sniper rifles at government agents "and we got away with it."

And then we took over a wildlife refuge for 41 days.

And one person did die during that interaction, but a jury acquitted them.

So, I think that there has been this permissiveness that's either come from mismanagement of cases by the federal government, like we saw with the 2014 case, and by a jury saying, "Well, the government didn't prove "the charges for that case."

So, I think in both of those it gave Ammon Bundy, his sons Cliven Bundy a bigger megaphone and, and more attention.

And now, even today I was looking at some things earlier of people chatting about anti-government things online.

And oftentimes they will say, "Well, the Bundy's did get off."

Remember, that we have gotten this permission before and that we have won these things before through the legal process.

So, I think it just helped build more of a status I think for those people as leaders, but also building a movement saying, "Hey, well look at what those guys did."

Why can't we do that?

- Tapping into that same thing, Leah is versus the big evil government.

The big evil government that's controlled by the power elite, and the deep state and so forth.

And you know, whether you're Cliven Bundy or Randy Weaver, or the small guy, the militia is coming to your rescue and we're the true Patriots.

So, the big federal government gets a bad rap here many times.

And there's that kind of collective, animus that's directed towards the federal government.

And particularly, I mean there are places in this country now where FBI agents don't want to go by themselves.

It's gonna be two or more agents to travel into certain counties, because they're just not welcomed.

They're viewed as enemies.

Even though these are obviously US citizens.

So, that's the country where we've come to now.

Is where a lot of people, particularly in rural areas, they really hate the federal government, and they hate the agents of the federal government.

And whether it's the IRS or the FBI or the ATF, there's some commonality there.

And these groups use that to recruit new members.

- So, I'm curious about... One of the arguments that the impeachment managers made at the end of their case was that if you do not convict former President Trump this will happen again.

And the question that came out of that for me was does it really matter?

I mean, certainly there's a political story here, where Donald Trump is able to run for office again.

He's able to wield some political power.

He remains a power within his party, but would a conviction of Donald Trump really prevent what has happened so far from continuing to evolve and grow?

And I'm wondering if Leah, what you're seeing happen in reaction to the acquittal.

And even before that, to the insurrection is telling you a story about where this is headed and whether or not Trump is really as big a factor as those House impeachment managers might have us believe he is.

- I think that, I heard that statement too, and I thought it would have, you know, if you acquit him, it's either way this movement is going to continue.

I don't think that it's quite right to think of the anti-government movement as occult a personality around Donald Trump.

I certainly think obviously, as we've been talking about he crystallized things and whipped up a fury within those movements.

But it doesn't solely rely on his shoulders.

I think that if they'd found him guilty, I think that there surely would have been a backlash to that as well.

What I'm seeing is a lot of back patting and people saying, "Yeah, we were right, see?"

This is just one more reason that what we did on January 6th was a good thing, and was right.

You know, again the Bundy's being acquitted, the mistrial.

It's just one more chapter of that.

So, I think you asked where it's going to go now.

And I tend to not like to play the predicting game.

Bill has been at this a lot longer than I have.

So I often call Bill and say, "Where is this gonna go now?"

So I actually, would be curious what he would say.

- Well, I don't have a crystal ball, but it's somewhat pretty.

A lot of the science are there many times, and anybody that's paid close attention, I think can sometimes draw some conclusions.

In response to your question, the Senate's decision not to convict Donald Trump is one thing, but on another plateau, we have 160 prosecutions pending brought by the justice department.

There are 160 individuals who were involved in those deadly events of January 6th.

And I for one hope that when those cases go to court, that the federal prosecutors throw the book at these guys.

They need to make examples out of them.

They need to be dealt with harshly by our criminal justice system to show that in fact we are a country of laws and that you can't go and break into the speaker of the House's office, and do the things that were done there, and beat on police officers, and pinch them in the door and so forth.

So there are 160 cases.

And, I haven't seen a lot of reporting on this.

But I'm also wondering, as the prosecution goes through those cases, certainly at some point there's gonna be a federal grand jury that looks into this.

Looking into the bigger question of was there a conspiracy at play here?

And who were the players?

Were people like you know, I'm not going to name names, but were there some significant players involved behind the scenes in the planning and the financing of what happened there?

I mean, buses were rented from Michigan that drove to Washington.

And there was a significant amount of apparent planning that went into this, just like Charlottesville.

Everybody showed up with the torches in Charlottesville, but in DC, people were there ready to rumble.

I mean, they were there.

They were there to disrupt the lawful business of Congress.

We ought not forget about that.

And I'm putting my money on those federal prosecutors to get to the bottom of that, augmented I hope by the work of Congress with a special investigation into what really did happen that day.

- Okay, I just want to remind our audience that we will be getting to the question and answer section soon.

So please submit your questions now.

The next thing I wanted to ask about is really Bill you mentioned that we'll see this playing out in the courts in the coming months and years, perhaps.

I wonder what both of you think about the government's response outside of what's happening as far as prosecution goes here.

President Biden came out with a pretty, thought out plan, announced that there would be looking into domestic terrorism more.

I mean, it really seems to be more on the FBI's radar now than it has been in the past.

What's the nature of...

I mean, what have you been seeing as far as the government apparatus swinging into place here?

And I know I asked this before, but I'm just kind of curious about how it compares to where the government was at pre 9/11 in regards to these groups?

Bill, what are you seeing?

- Well, they sure as heck should be doing what you just suggested.

I mean, I was just looking at some numbers and in 2020, there were 16 incidents in the United States in which police and extremists exchanged gunfire, and at least 14 of those incidents involved anti-government extremists or white supremacists.

I mean, that's even before January 6th, I mean, what's happening on the far right has been going on for a long time.

It started, it really kicked into gear, I believe with the election in 2008 of Barack Obama.

And it's festered, and it's the networking and the advances in the internet, and chat rooms and the dark web.

It's a huge problem.

And government agencies have told us that.

Back in 2009, the Department of Homeland Security, and a colleague of mine, Darrel Johnson wrote a report saying, while everybody's worried about foreign terrorists and jihadists, the real problem is domestic terrorism.

And we've yet to come... That was, we've yet to come to grips with that.

Now, maybe the events of January 6th will change that, I'm hopeful.

- I'm glad that Bill mentioned Darryl Johnson's report because that report was shelved.

It was politicized and shelved, and Darryl was sort of shuffled along out of his position.

And I've interviewed him quite a bit, and it's really harrowing to hear that this information was presented to our government, but it was politicized by Republicans as anti-American and terrorists are not here, they are elsewhere.

And I think, you know the Biden administration would do well to reread that report, and potentially consult with Daryl about what he saw then and how we can start working, working towards fixing this.

I mean, I also wrote about a bombing that happened in Panaca, Nevada in 2016, and that was.

There were never any charges brought on that bombing.

And there was so much evidence about that was a bomb that was intended for a federal building.

It was instead placed at a person's house, and nothing has come out about that.

None of my freedom of information requests have ever been answered on that.

So, this is both big and small.

It's local and it's national.

And I think that there's a lot of looking backward we need to do to answer this moment right now.

- So, Leah, I know you said that you don't want to play the prediction game, and I appreciate that.

But I do wonder, and this is gonna be my last question for both of you before we move on to the reader questions, but I'm wondering what you are going to be keeping your eye on?

What are you looking out for?

What storylines are you following coming out of the insurrection and going into the future?

Bill, what about you?

What are you got your eye on right now?

- Well, I think the big evolving thing is this whole QAnon in the conspiracy world.

QAnon is not the start of the conspiracy world.

I mean, the whole conspiracy world and the extremist world have been commingled for years, and years.

And it's in fact, one of the many myths that Richard Butler in the Aryan nations used to promote back in the eighties and nineties.

They, of course their biggest conspiracy was they didn't believe that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust.

And they'd use that to attract followers.

And there's still elements out there who are Holocaust deniers that still peddle that ridiculous message.

And then we've, you gotten into the whole realm now of QAnon that factors in all these wild ideas.

Back in 2011, 10 years ago, I spent three actually very uncomfortable days in Santa Barbara, California at a conspiracy conference where all these conspiracy buffs from throughout the country got together and sort of traded stories.

I mean, at some of this stuff, ranging from the 9/11 attacks were an insight job that the Mossad was somehow involved.

That there were shadow governments and secret societies and the Illuminati, and the global elites.

And then that sort of spins into more anti-Semitism, where all these people got together.

And there were several hundred people there who paid a pretty sizable attendance fee to come together to swap these stories.

And so now you spin the tale ahead to about four years ago when QAnon started taking off, and all these wild ideas are peddled on the internet.

Somehow, Jewish forces are responsible for lasers that started the California wildfires.

I mean, some of this stuff, it's just straight bizarre, I mean, and it's unfounded, but yet it attracts a following.

And from that following, some of these people then get spun off into these other groups that we've previously talked about these, militia groups, the Boogaloo boys, the proud boys, the Three Percenters, they're coming to get my guns.

FEMA's across... these FEMA setting up detention camps.

I mean the whole web of conspiracy stuff out there is just...

It's a doctoral study in the making.

- I'm really interested in how religious leaders play into this whole thing.

I mean we saw with the pandemic and mask regulations, reopening that a lot of conspiracy theories about the government's role in the pandemic was coming from the pulpit, even in the Northwest.

So that's something, I'm eternally interested in people's religious views and what people choose to believe during their life.

And so that's one thing I'm interested in.

I'm also really interested in how young people are feeling very much like the world is on the brink that they've grown up on in the world they're aware is rapidly warming, and climate change is a huge deal, and they've only known Donald Trump, and Barack Obama to be president, and it feels very on the brink.

So I think that that's something that we've seen within the Boogaloo movement.

This real kind of energy around increased violence.

And I think a lot of that has to do with it being predominantly young men that are in that movement.

So those are things I'm kind of keeping an eye on.

- Hmm, so we've got a question from a reader.

We're going to move into the reader questions now.

And we've got a question from a reader that I think touches on that Leah and some other things that I wanted to talk about.

So I thank you, Danielle Garber Reiser for this question.

How do you see the current status of some Washington State legislators, and others to advocate for the Liberty State Movement?

So this is a piece of legislation that has been introduced by now former state representative, Matt Shay, and to coordinate off Eastern Washington as a separate state.

Leah, you have written about Matt Shay, who I think that this viewer is talking about, and I'm curious about this, but then also, where are we seeing this in local politics?

Is it on the rise or is there a process of kind of filtering out these voices?

- Well, Matt yeah.

Matt Shay is somebody I've written a lot about, and you know if the state of Liberty becomes a thing, I think Bill, you're going to live in the capital of it, right?

Like that was always the idea was that you separate Eastern Washington and turn it ,into its own state with North Idaho, and have even heard Western Montana get pulled into that.

I do think that there was a lot of energy around that idea because of Matt Shay.

He is not in office anymore.

However, and I actually wasn't thinking of him when I was just talking about the religiosity behind some of these views, but he's gone on to now lead.

He's an evangelical preacher at a church in Spokane Valley.

A large part of that church is to set up services outside of Planned Parenthood in Spokane.

And it's a very anti abortion church.

You know, anybody can watch what Matt Shay says on Facebook and it is very anti-government.

So I don't know that there is a sustained energy around that idea.

We've seen since forever, it seems like the state of Jefferson has been a thing in Southern Oregon where people with similar ideas want to break away part of the state.

It would be quite a dramatic act for that to actually happen.

Bill, I don't know.

Do you see state of Liberty flags and things like that around town anymore?

- Occasionally, you know I can't help when I think about that, and hear about that the same thing that Richard Butler was talking about, a white's only homeland.

- Right.

- That's really, let's just call it what it is.

That's what Matt Shay's talking about.

He wants a whites only homeland that's predominantly white, that's a Christian theocracy.

To heck with the other religions, where according to him and his followers, we should be a country only for white Christians, and there's no place for anybody else.

And from that is a really a rigid brand of hatred.

And it's responsible for things like Nazi swastikas on the synagogue here a week or so ago.

It's responsible for leafleting.

It's responsible for just branches and branches of hatred and racism.

And I'm not blaming all that on Matt Shay.

I'm saying it's the cesspool that this stuff comes from.

So, (indistinct) Homeland and the 51st state are just, I hope they never happened in my lifetime.

- It's definitely like, I think Bill's right.

It's definitely an idea.

You know, there's a house in my neighborhood that for the last few years was flying a thin blue line flag and a Trump flag.

And then they've taken down the Trump flag, and put up a flag with, the Christian fish filled, with an American flag in the middle.

And it says something about it being a Christian nation.

And I think that that's at the heart of the state of Liberty is this idea of a white Christian homeland.

And it doesn't need to necessarily be dressed up as Liberty or Americanism al lat Matt Shay.

But it is this idea of that we see in other ways and other incarnations, too.

So, so, yeah.

- Hmm, all right.

We've got another one from Elene Fower here.

She says, "Would you say that white nationalism "is empirically on the rise in this country, "or simply more emboldened?

"Are we simply seeing it more starkly "as people of color gain meaningful voices "and political power and are approaching "majority status in our country?"

- I would opt for the latter part of that question.

And I think some people are having difficulty coming, white people are having difficulty coming to grips with the fact that in just a few years white people are gonna be a minority in this country.

And they use that to race to these different racist organizations and...

But the ebb and flow of activity in white supremacy groups, ebbs and flows.

And there've been, over the last, 50 years, there was a real big jump into after the 2008 election.

So, it's sort of one of those numbers, it's pretty elusive.

I mean, for example, some States and some police departments don't even require the reporting of hate crime.

So it's difficult, really to track the world of hate and racist groups.

And it's gotten better since the federal government formed joint terrorism task force, And we have FBI agents across the country now who track domestic terrorism issues, but we're still not where we should be.

It's really a difficult, I think guessing game to figure out how many people of the white nationalist persuasion are really out there?

I don't know that there are any really good ways to come to grips with that.

And is the number growing or is it decreasing, or is it about the same?

- Yeah, I think it's, I'm with Bill, it's a more emboldened thing right now.

You know, somebody like David Duke has been around forever talking about these ideas, but not seeing huge, massive people sign up and do his bidding.

But I think now we're just at a point in society where we're looking at systems, we're looking at how systems are racist.

And so those systems have always been there.

It's just more that society, I think is reckoning with those things.

So, I don't think that there's a big change so much as that awareness of what white supremacy looks like and how it manifests in real life, that it is very rarely a bunch of people with torches and hoods and burning crosses.

And it's more often the systems that continually marginalize people.

(indistinct) - Well- - Go ahead.

- Excuse me, one way, just a footnote to all that.

You know, when you're looking at the people, obviously there were 70 million people that voted for Donald Trump.

Certainly, they're not all racists.

Some of them are just died in the wool Republicans who likes what he stood for, and I'm not implying that they all were.

But within that 70 million, clearly there are a good number of them, who subscribed to different racist ideologies, and anti-Semitic ideologies.

And another figure just to give a gauge to this, Alex Jones who promotes, he's on a radio talk show who promotes a lot of these far out conspiracy theories.

You know, in February of last year, his program reached 3.3 million people.

I mean, that out of a country of 350 million, that's a significant number of people that spend some time listening to the skewed hate messages of Alex Jones.

And again, I think that's an indicative.

I think it's more pervasive than a lot of us probably realize in terms of people that are buying into some of this.

Now, does that mean that they're going to go out and burn a cross on their neighbor's lawn?

Probably not, but do they believe some of these government conspiracy theories that there's a deep state out there, or that the election was somehow rigged?

I mean, you pick the theory on any given day.

I mean, there's a whole long list of them, but those of us who pay close attention to this, it's fairly frightening.

- Hmm, all right.

I've got another question here from Richard Cohen who asks do you anticipate increasing levels of violence from the far right?

And by that, I mean violence of an even greater scale and impact, bombings shootings, things like that?

I know, again, this is asking you to predict, but what is the, I mean... Are these things that are being talked about in the channels that you're seeing?

Leah, what's the- - I think it's one big fear, I think that lots of folks have that I've interviewed is this idea of lone wolves.

You know, that this...

I know that's a very frustrating term, and it is for a lot of reasons.

Looking at Timothy McVeigh, he's oftentimes characterized as a lone Wolf who went and bombed a building.

And that was that.

And it ended with him.

Bill and I have talked extensively on one of my podcasts, you can hear us talking about whether or not there was a vast network of people that allowed, and helped him along to committing that bombing.

So I think this is to say, I think there's always a big fear of that kind of thing that there's someone who kind of goes off on their own and does something really violent that can't really be predicted.

They're not talking about it on channels, on the internet, and things like that.

But I don't think that we can only look to those kind of oddball types that there's plenty of simmerings online.

Facebook and things like that have taken down a lot of these channels that I would often look at, but there's still people talking about committing violence on large and small scales.

When you see a bunch of people showing up in Olympia, or in Portland, or in Salem, or any state Capitol battled up and ready for war, like that's a thing to be concerned about.

Bringing guns to state capitals.

I think that's a form of violence, is threatening people.

So I think that that's all something to be worried about.

I dunno, Bill, what do you think?

- Yeah, I agree.

Predicting the next event, traditionally some of these events, the springtime has brought out some of these worst events.

April, you know the birthday of Hitler.

Have always been times of heightened alert by federal authorities that watch this stuff.

But you know, who knows what's going to happen next?

I mean, Leah and I were both here in Spokane when a guy decided to plan a backpack bomb on the Martin Luther King parade back in 2010, I believe it was.

So, you know the predictability, it's difficult.

But we have to hope that law enforcement and analysts in the private sector are paying close attention to what's going on in these chat rooms.

It's a huge 24 hour day task in tracking down who these individuals are.

Including QAnon, I want to know who's QAnon?

Who is that person out there?

Does the NSA know?

Can somebody really tell us who QAnon, and who's behind all this, these strange posts?

- Okay, so I've just got one more reader question, and then we're going to wrap it up, and we've only got a little bit of time.

So, make this as quick as possible.

But we have a lot of people who are asking about what they can do.

So Louis Pietra Feza asks, "What can those of us who are awake and alarmed "at this trend to do to discourage this growing hatred "toward the government and racist ideology?

So, what can be done?

Bill, you've been covering this for so, so long.

What is it you see works?

- Simple answer, join your local human rights group.

When an event happens in your community, get that group to speak loudly against what you just saw, and let the world know that there are more people of Goodwill, than there are people of bad will that wanna promote hate.

Do something.

Join a human rights group, a civil rights group in your own community, or on a local level, and be ready to react when some of these crimes occur.

- Leah.

- I think, to me it's make yourself uncomfortable when you hear misogyny and racism.

There are many, many ways that those things get tossed around in casual conversation or online.

Over dinner tables and things like that.

And I think it's really difficult to say that something is hateful.

And I think just on a person to person level, having those conversations with your loved ones, friends, family, coworkers, and just being able to say, "Hey, what you're saying is not okay."

Stopping it right there might allow it to, prevent it from going further.

- All right.

Well, Leah, Bill, thank you both so much for talking with us today.

Your work is wonderful.

It really brings clarity at a very difficult time.

So, thank you.

- Yeah, thanks for having us.

- And to our series sponsor, BECU, thank you for making tonight's event possible.

We would also like to take a moment to thank our members and to remind you that Crosscut is a nonprofit reader-supported news site that relies on the support of our community to ensure that our events in journalism remain free for everyone.

Thank you so much to everyone who donated to this event today.

If you would like to make a donation or become a member visit us at crosscut.com/support.

Thanks again Leah and bill, and thanks to all of you.

Have a great night.