>>> WELL, NOW, 2023 SAW A RECORD NUMBER OF MIGRANTS CROSS THE ATLANTIC TO THE SPANISH CANARY ISLANDS, WITH MANY LIVES LOST AT SEA.

EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS ARE RESPONDING WITH HARSH CRACKDOWNS, BUT RARELY DO WE HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE MAKING THE JOURNEYS.

ITALIAN FILM DIRECTOR MATTEO JAR ROAN IS HOPING TO SHARE THE STORY WITH HIS NEW FILM, WHICH FOLLOWING TWO MIGRANTS TRAVELING FROM AFRICA TO ITALY.

IT'S LARGELY INSPIRED BY THE EXPERIENCE OF MAMADOU KOUASSI.

HE JOINS HARI WITH THE FILM'S DIRECTOR TO DISCUSS THAT JOURNEY.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BIANNA.

MATTEO, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO DIRECT THIS MOVIE ABOUT MIGRATION?

>> WELL, THE IDEA -- FIRST, THANKS FOR INVITING US.

AND THE IDEA START FROM THE DESIRE TO GIVE A FINAL VISUAL FORM TO A PART OF A JOURNEY THAT WE USUALLY DON'T SEE.

WE ARE USED IN ITALY, IN EUROPE, WE ARE USED TO SEEING ONLY THE LAST PART OF THE JOURNEY, WHEN THE POET BOAT ARRIVE IN SICILY, AND THERE'S THE COUNT OF PEOPLE ALIVE AND PEOPLE DEAD.

SO, AT TIMES, WE ARE USED TO THINK THAT THEY ARE JUST NUMBER.

IN THE LAST 15 YEARS, 27,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED ON THIS JOURNEY.

AND SO, WE DECIDE TO TRY TO PUT THE CAMERA ON THE REVERSE SHOT, TO FINALLY TELL THE STORY OF THIS ODYSSEY FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THEM.

TRYING TO GIVE TO THE AUDIENCE THE POSSIBILITY TO LIVE THIS JOURNEY THROUGH THE EYES OF THE REAL PROTAGONISTS OF THE SURVIVAL.

>> MAMADOU, YOU ARE A MIGRANT YOURSELF, YOU ARE ALSO A CONSULTANT ON THIS FILM.

FILM, RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, WHERE THE TWO COUSINS ARE DECIDING TO GO, MAKE A GO OF THIS JOURNEY, AND ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN IS KIND OF TELLING HIS MOTHER THAT HE'S GOING TO DO THIS.

>> WHY ARE MIGRANTS LIKE YOURSELF SO DESPERATE TO GET OUT?

IF YOU KNOW, AND IF YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT THESE DANGERS, ESPECIALLY IN THE DESERT, AND WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE IN LIBYA, WHY GET ON THAT FIRST BUS?

>> OF COURSE.

IF SOMEBODY IS PUSHED BY A DREAM, HE HAS TO FOLLOW THE DREAM TO FOLLOW HIS HEART, SO EVEN WE ARE -- WE KNOW THAT, BECAUSE WE TOOK INFORMATION FROM OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE TRAVELING.

WE DON'T CARE, WE WANT TO FOLLOW OUR DREAM TO HAVE BETTER LIFE.

THIS IS THEIR SITUATION.

SO BEING PUSHED TO GET BETTER LIFE, WE DECIDE TO CROSS THE DESERT AT ANY COST, SO, THIS IS THE REALITY, BECAUSE IN AFRICA, WE DON'T HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY OR SO TO HAVE THIS KIND -- TO MAKE OUR DREAM COME TRUE, SO -- THIS IS THE REASON WHY WE DECIDE AS AFRICAN PEOPLE TO GET A BETTER LIFE IN EUROPE.

>> SO, MATTEO, GIVEN THAT THERE WERE ALL THESE DIFFERENT STORIES THAT YOU COULD HAVE PICKED UP, HOW DID YOU WRITE THE SHIPT?

HOW DID YOU FOCUS ON THE JOURNEY OF TWO COUSINS?

>> IT'S THE STRUCTURE, IT'S THE STRUCTURE.

IT'S A CONTEMPORARY JOURNEY.

SO, I LISTEN, I LISTEN MANY OF THEIR STORY, AND THEN I TRIED TO PUT TWO OR THREE STORY TOGETHER IN ONE UNIQUE STORY, AND WE -- WE RECREATE THIS WORLD.

WE RECREATE THESE FAIRY TALES.

WE RECREATE THIS ADVENTURE.

TRYING, AS I SAID BEFORE, TRYING TO TELL THE STORY, TRYING TO BE HONEST, TRYING TO BE SIMPLE.

TRYING TO BE ADVADVISABLE.

THAT WAS THE WORD ON THE SET, TO BE ADVISABLE, TO GIVE TO THE AUDIENCE THE POSSIBILITY TO LIVED EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE CINEMA IS NOT INFORMATION, IT'S EXPERIENCE, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE.

THE FIRST STORY I HAD MANY YEARS AGO WAS THE STORY, WHEN HE WAS 15, HE DROVE THIS BOAT WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO DRIVE A BOAT AND HE MAKE THIS HEROIC ACT OF SAVE THE LIFE OF 250 PEOPLE AND REACHING, FINALLY, ITALY.

>> AND SO I TALK WITH HIM AND I DISCOVERED THAT AFTER THIS ACT, HE WENT IN JAIL FOR SIX MONTHS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE LEAVE THIS CONTRADICTION, BECAUSE THEY -- THEY ARE, AS WE SAID BEFORE, THEY ARE CONTEMPORARY HERO, AND THEY ARE TREAT LIKE -- BECAUSE SOMETIMES, IT'S EASIER TO PUT IN JAIL PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE VOICE AND TREAT THEM AS A -- SO, THAT IS AN UNJUSTICE, AND WE -- WE HOPE -- WE HOPE THAT THE MOVIE WILL SHOW THIS -- THIS INJUSTICE TOWARDS THE WORLD AND AND THINGS WILL CHANGE.

>> MAMADOU, I DON'T THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE WATCHING THE FILM IN THE WEST ARE AWARE OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COUNTRIES IN BETWEEN.

ESPECIALLY IN LIBYA.

CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND THE GANGS THAT ARE IN BETWEEN PEOPLE GETTING FROM THEIR ORIGIN COUNTRY TO THE COAST TO GET ON ONE OF THE BOATS?

>> IT'S DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN, BECAUSE THOSE COUNTRIES ARE -- THEIR ECONOMY IS BASED ON PETROL.

AFTER THE PETROL, THEY TRADE BLACK PEOPLE.

SO, IT BECOMES THE CYCLE ECONOMY OF THOSE PEOPLE.

THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRADED IN THESE COUNTRIES, AND THEY HAVE SOME OTHER PLACES, PRISONS, THAT AFTER SOME TIME, THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T KNOW THEY EXIST.

AND MOST OF THE TIME, IF THEY SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE IN NUMBER, THEY CAN TAKE SOME PEOPLE AND TAKE THEM BACK TO THE SAHARA, AND LEAVE THEM THERE.

AND THOSE PEOPLE SOMETIMES, THEY DIE.

>> MATTEO, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE CHALLENGES IN MAKING THIS FILM?

YOU USED MOSTLY NONPROFESSIONAL ACTORS, A LOT OF THE EXTRAS AND THE CHARACTERS THAT ARE IN THE FILM WERE MIGRANTS THEMSELVES.

YOU WERE SHOOTING THIS -- THIS WAS NOT AN ITALIAN FILM, SO, YOU'RE SHOOTING PARTS OF THIS, MOST OF THIS IN LANGUAGES THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, SO, HOW DID YOU -- HOW DID YOU KIND OF, THE BLOCKING AND TACKLING OF MAKING A FILM LIKE THIS?

>> YEAH, WELL, IT WAS -- YEAH, BIG CHALLENGE.

OF COURSE, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE, BUT THAT WAS THE REASON WHY I DECIDE IMMEDIATELY THAT THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THE MOVIE WAS TOGETHER.

SO, I'VE BEEN A SORT OF INTERMEDIATE YEAH OR THE.

I PUT MY EXPERIENCE, MY WAY OF LOOK, AT THE SERVICE OF THEM, THE SERVICE OF THEIR STORY.

SO, I WAS ALWAYS WITH THEM.

FROM THE SCRIPT, ALSO ON THE SET, WITH ALL THE EXTRA IN THE MOVIE WERE REAL -- REAL SURVIVOR, REAL MIGRANT THAT ALREADY MADE THAT YOUR KNEE.

SO, THEY COULD HELP ME TO RECREATE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS JOURNEY, THE DETAILS, AND, YES, WE MADE THIS MOVIE ALTOGETHER, SO -- I HAD THIS INCREDIBLE PRIVILEGE TO BE WITH THEM AND TO SEE THEM ON -- ON THE SET, IN FRONT OF THE MONITOR, HOW THEY REACT, HOW THEY RECREATE THESE -- THIS JOURNEY, AND WE WANTED TO BE AUTHENTIC FOR THE RESPECT OF THE PEOPLE THAT MADE THIS JOURNEY, FOR THE RESPECT OF THE PEOPLE THAT DIED ON THIS JOURNEY.

AND ALSO, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT, FOR SHOW TO THE AFRICAN WHAT THE JOURNEY MEANS, BECAUSE WE -- THE MOVIE WILL BE RELEASED IN 20 COUNTRY IN AFRICA.

>> MATTEO, WHAT IS THE FEELING AT THE MOMENT IN ITALY TOWARDS MIGRANTS THAT ARE MAKING THIS JOURNEY, OR TO THE MIGRANTS WHO ARE ALREADY IN THE COUNTRY?

>> WELL, I THINK IN ITALY, LIKE ALSO IN GENERAL EUROPE, ALSO IN THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE TENDENCY IS ALWAYS MORE ON CLOSE THE BORDERS, ON -- MAKE WAR, AND THE MOVIE TRY TO SHOW THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG, OFTEN, THAT THEY DON'T STOP IN FRONT OF WAR, BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THE RIGHT TO MOVE TO DISCOVER THE WORLD, TO LOOK FOR A BETTER LIFE FOR THEIR FAMILY, IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD -- SHOULD BE FOR EVERYBODY, FOR EVERY HUMAN BEING.

SO, THEY SEE PEOPLE FROM OUR COUNTRY GOING HOLIDAY IN THEIR COUNTRY, AND IF THEY WANT TO MOVE AND COME IN OUR COUNTRY, THEY HAVE TO RISK THEIR LIFE.

>> MATTEO, RIGHT NOW, THE POLITICS OF ITALY HAVE SWUNG TO THE RIGHT.

YOU HAVE A PRIME MINISTER WHO HAS SAID, QUOTE, I WILL NOT ALLOW ITALY TO BECOME A REFUGEE CAMP FOR EUROPE.

AND WHAT SEEMS TO RESONATE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ELECTED HER ARE SOMETIMES THE SECURITY CONCERNS THAT SHE SAYS, THAT ITALY SHOULD BEWARE OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING ACROSS.

AND SHE HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT THERE IS AN ECONOMIC CONCERN, THAT THE PEOPLE OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA WILL REPLACE THE WORKING PEOPLE OF ITALY.

ARE THESE FEARS JUSTIFIED?

>> WELL, I THINK WE -- THIS PROBLEM IS GLOBAL.

I THINK ALSO IN THE STATES YOU HAVE A SIMILAR PROBLEM WITH THE MEXICAN PEOPLE, AND -- AND I THINK IT'S UNIVERSAL.

MY POINT OF VIEW IS THAT WE SHOULD ALWAYS MORE TRY TO OPEN, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, OPEN THE VISA TO GIVE THE POSSIBILITY TO THE PEOPLE TO -- TO MOVE WITHOUT RISK THEIR LIVES, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE BECAUSE WE ARE A COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY EUROPE, VERY OLD, AND 70% OF THE PEOPLE IN AFRICA ARE YOUNG.

SO, WE CAN CREATE SOMETHING TOGETHER.

WE CAN HELP EACH OTHER.

AND I THINK MAKING THIS MOVIE, IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF HOW WE CAN WORK TOGETHER AND DO SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL.

>> MAMADOU, YOU'RE WORKING NOW AS A CULTURE ALLEY YEAH SON WITH MIGRANTS WHO ARE ENTERING THE COUNTRY, AND I WONDER, WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU?

AND WHAT HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE ABOUT THIS SHIFT POLITICALLY TO THE RIGHT?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE PEOPLE ARE LESS WELCOMING OF MIGRANTS?

OR MORE SUSPICIOUS?

>> WHEN I ARRIVE IN EUROPE, WHAT I WAS EXPECTING IS NOT WHAT DID I SAY.

I SUFFER A LOT.

I SLEPT OUTSIDE.

AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT I COME IN TODAY, MOST OF THEM ARE FACING THE SAME SITUATION.

SO, SOMETIMES THOSE PEOPLE WHO COME TO EUROPE, THEY DO NOT GET THE CHANCE TO INTEGRATE THEMSELVES AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE STAY OUTSIDE.

EVEN HERE IN UNITED STATES, WE SAW SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE STAYING OUTSIDE.

SO, THIS IS A GLOBAL SITUATION THAT EVERYTHING -- THE POLICY HAS -- THERE SHOULD BE A NEW POLICY REQUIRING OUT OF THE MIGRATION, AND THIS FILM WILL HAVE BROUGHT A WAY FOR THE POLITICIAN TO THINK FOR ALL THE HUMAN BEINGS TO THINK THAT THIS IS THE TIME TO HAVE A NEW POLICY REGARDING MIGRATIONS.

TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL EASILY, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD OPEN ALL THE BORDERS, BUT GIVING A CHANCE FOR PEOPLE TO TRAVEL, YOU CAN CONTROL THE MIGRATIONS.

GIVING CHANCE FOR PEOPLE TO TRAVEL, THIS IS A HUMAN RIGHT.

>> MATTEO, YOU ALSO HAD A PRIVATE SCREENING WITH THE POPE.

HE HAS BEEN OUTSPOKEN ABOUT MIGRATION ISSUES, ONE OF HIS FIRST TRIPS AS POPE WAS IN ITALY WHERE SO MANY MIGRANTS LAND.

WHAT WAS THAT MEETING LIKE?

>> FOR US, IT WAS INCREDIBLE MOMENT -- >> YEAH.

>> BUT IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME, THE FACT THAT THE POPE WANTED TO SUPPORT THIS MOVIE, BECAUSE HE ALWAYS HAS BEEN FROM THE SIDE OF THIS CONTEMPORARY HERO, FROM THE SIDE OF THE MIGRANTS.

SO, HE ALWAYS TRY TO GIVE VOICE TO THEM, TO SHOW TO THE WORLD THE INJUSTICE, AND TRYING TO HOPE THAT THE WORLD COULD PUT DOWN THE WAR INSTEAD OF PUT UP.

AND SO, THE MOVIE'S ABOUT A REFLECTION ABOUT INCLUSIVITY, AND NOT SEPARATION.

AND THE POPE WANTED TO SUPPORT US FOR THIS REASON, BECAUSE HE FELT THAT WE TOLD THE STORY FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THEM, FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THIS CONTEMPORARY HERO.

>> MAMADOU, THIS MAY SEEM LIKE A STRANGE QUESTION, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS HARDER, GETTING TO EUROPE OR LIFE SINCE YOU'VE BEEN THERE?

>> I THINK BEING IN EUROPE, THE JOURNEY WAS SO MUCH HARDER, BECAUSE ME, FOR EXAMPLE, I SPENT THREE YEARS AND THOSE THREE YEARS, I SAW MANY PEOPLE DYING.

DESERT, MEDITERRANEAN SEA, PRISON, SOING WITH SO BEING -- DOING THIS JOURNEY WAS VERY CRUEL FOR ME, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I'M NEVER GOING TO TELL YOU THAT BEING IN EUROPE IS EASY.

BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME DIFFICULTIES THAT PEOPLE FACE IN EUROPE.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THERE SHOULD BE A POLICY TO INTEGRATE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIVING IN EUROPE.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE LIVING HERE FOR YEARS, 10 YEARS, 15 YEARS, THEY ARE UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY HOUSE TO STAY, SO, THIS IS ANOTHER THING THAT PEOPLE ARE FACING.

>> MAMADOU, MATTEO, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.