♪ >> Next on "The Chavis Chronicles," Irene Gandy, "The Queen of Broadway," and Jim Winston, president and C.E.O.

of the National Association of Black Owned Broadcasters.

Next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ >> We're very pleased to welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles" Irene Gandy, known as "The Queen of Broadway."

Thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I'm so humbled, so thank you for having me.

>> Well, thank you.

I really want our audience to learn more about you.

You were born in Long Island, New York.

>> Yes.

>> So you're a native New Yorker.

>> Yes, Westbury, Long Island.

Now, my dad and my mom -- they came there in 1935.

They were one of the first Black families to settle there.

My mom was a domestic on the Phipps estate.

My godfather was the groom.

My dad put potatoes on the farm, which is now called the Hamptons.

[ Laughs ] >> Everybody flocks to the Hamptons now.

>> Oh, yeah.

But, now, he used to say, "It's a potato farm.

Why are they paying all that money for potato farms?"

Because he picked potatoes.

So, at the end, he amassed a lot of land, yeah.

>> Tell us -- how did you first begin your work, your journey on Broadway?

Which is known all over the world for theater.

>> Well, it's really funny, because one of my neighbors -- he did children's theater at the Electric Circus.

And he said his owl was missing, could I come and play the owl?

So I came and played the owl and I ran into a high-school buddy who was the company manager for the famed Negro Ensemble Company, which Douglas Turner Ward.

And they were looking for African-Americans, 'cause Doug wrote this letter in 1968, the "Dear White People" letter that the young people are writing now.

Doug wrote it in '68.

And, so, he wanted a school, a residency where you can train Black actors in excellence, composers, and all of that stuff.

So, I went for the interview 'cause my daughter was 2 years old, running around.

I knew I wasn't gonna get the job.

But he said, "If I don't send you up, I have to send, you know, a person of non-color."

I said, "Well, I'll do it," 'cause I'm an old-movie buff and I like Mae West.

He said, "My press agent did this."

So I ended up interviewing the press representative for the Negro Ensemble Company.

And that's how it started.

>> The Negro Ensemble Company, as it was called back then.

>> Yes, and he was very clear about it -- the Negro Ensemble company.

And it was amazing, 'cause it was the '60s.

Everyone was like, "Black this, Black that."

He said, "No, it's the Negro Ensemble Company."

>> From the 1960s to now, how has Broadway changed?

What have you seen firsthand as sort of an insider?

>> In 1977, it was "Bubbling Brown Sugar."

It was an all-Black production of "Guys and Dolls."

We had "The Wiz."

My thing is, there's Broadway, but there's Black people in it, 'cause Broadway is green.

It's about money.

It's the Great White Way, but it's the Green Way, 'cause if the shows -- people like the show, they'll come buy it.

So there was no Black Broadway for me.

I mean, people may not -- They're entitled to disagree, but I'm Broadway.

But there are Black people on Broadway.

So that's the thing.

And I think -- What I'm saying is that we have to support our own.

But you can't support your own unless you have the money to support it.

You can talk about it, but we have to support our own.

So, I've seen changes.

I'm very happy to live, at 50 years, to see all the young Black shows on Broadway now.

Because it doesn't matter.

I think Broadway is like love for an artist.

You know, if you find -- If you get there, it can last a minute, it can last an hour, it can last 10 years, but you got there.

So, that's what I want to embellish with the young people.

You know, you're there, but never -- You don't need validation.

You're not a parking attendant.

>> So, I know some of the leading actresses, some of the leading actors in the world -- not in the movie industry, the theater -- they call you now.

They call Irene Gandy, 'cause you have something that they need.

>> Well, the thing is, they're like my kids.

You know, I mean, we all grew up -- I mean, you know, Sam, LaTanya, Phylicia -- Well, we're all the same age almost now.

But, you know, we grew up together.

I mean, I -- >> You said Phylicia.

Are you talking about Phylicia Rashad?

>> Yeah.

Phylicia and Debbie and, you know -- >> Debbie Allen.

>> Debbie Allen.

Debbie was a Munchkin in "The Wiz," you know?

Phylicia was the Good Witch in "The Wiz."

They were -- Debbie was a dancer in "A Raisin in the Sun."

Sam was an original, "A Soldier's Play."

So, all of the -- LaTanya Richardson, his wife -- great director.

I know her from Atlanta.

And also Al Pacino.

The Al Pacinos of the world and the Liev Schreibers.

You know, all of these guys -- I've known them since they were 21 and they just started out.

And I teach -- You know, they let me know this, since I got the Tony, that how I've touched their lives.

It's exciting.

It's exciting to know that, at my age, they still want me.

You know what I mean?

Because this is a young business.

>> You are now a star yourself.

>> I hate it.

I hate it.

I don't like it.

I don't know how to do it.

>> Yeah, but you may hate it, but I need to say this to you.

It's very rare to get a Tony Award for Honors in Excellence in Theatre.

You received the 2020 Tony Award for Honors in Excellence in Theatre.

So don't play that down.

>> Thank you so much.

>> What is the significance of that award?

>> Well, I'm just really owning it, because I said, "Oh, thank you, George Floyd, thank you --" Because I asked them.

I said, "Oh, was it just because of George Floyd?"

But I know, seriously, they do this -- It's like a Kennedy Honors.

They do this like 5 and 6 years in advance.

But what was exciting for me now -- I went to the opening night, which I saw some person that I know of "Ain't Too Proud."

But when I went into the theater, I saw people I've worked with for 30 and 40 years, and that's -- Yeah, I'm very happy.

I'm really very happy about it.

>> Congratulations.

>> Yes.

I'm happy that I lived to see the 10 Black shows of Broadway, too.

[ Laughs ] >> Wait a minute, now.

There are 10 -- >> Yeah.

10 Black shows on Broadway.

>> At the same time.

>> Yes.

>> On Broadway.

>> On Broadway.

And they're coming -- Okay, there's "Thoughts of a Colored Man," which is the first play that has been produced by Black people, Lead, lead producers.

They put up all the money.

They didn't ask for no money from nobody.

So, you have Brian Moreland.

You have John Legend.

You have Sheryl Lee Ralph.

You have Ron Simons.

"Caroline, or Change" is coming back.

We have "Chicken & Biscuits" with Norm Lewis.

We have "Lackawanna Blues."

We have -- "Ain't Too Proud" is still on Broadway.

We have "Tina," the musical.

"Michael Jackson" is in rehearsal.

We have "Trouble in Mind" with LaChanze, which Alice Childress wrote, which was supposed to come to Broadway in 1966, but she refused to make changes.

So that's a very interesting story.

"For Colored Girls" is coming back.

>> 10 plays on Broadway that have their essence, their origins out of the African-American experience.

What do you see in the future for Broadway?

>> Well, for me, I can't speak for everybody, which I tell everybody.

I don't speak for everybody.

But if you have anything that you don't agree with, please come for me, and I'll address it very nicely -- or not.

But what happened to me the first day of rehearsal for "Thoughts of a Colored Man," I went into the room and I saw an African-American company manager, a stage manager, assistant director, and the lead producers, and I just burst into tears, because -- >> Why did you burst into tears?

>> Because I never saw it.

I never see -- Because I never saw it, I didn't realize I never saw it, till I saw it.

Does that make sense?

>> Well, in 50 years, this is the first time seeing that.

>> Yes.

And I'm like, "Damn --" excuse me -- "I've never seen that.

And that just -- That made me very happy.

And that's the beauty of Douglas Turner Ward and Woodie King, who also received the honor.

Woodie provided the productions, and Doug provided the access to the unions.

So I wouldn't be here sitting -- None of us would be here.

None of us.

We wouldn't be where we were if it wasn't for the Negro Ensemble Company, 'cause that gave us access to -- Because it doesn't matter how great you are if nobody sees it, if you can't get access and get paid.

>> You personify perseverance.

We know it hasn't been easy, over the last 50 years, to work on Broadway as an African-American woman.

Tell us... >> But, you know, I'm gonna tell you what -- >> ...how you've persevered.

>> I'll tell you how I've persevered.

Lloyd Williams.

>> Explain -- who is Lloyd Williams?

>> Lloyd Williams -- Oh.

Well, first of all, Lloyd Williams is the chair -- He's the one that started -- Him and a group -- he spearheaded Harlem Week, which was Harlem Day, which is 48 years this coming August now.

Harlem, back in the day, when it was crack cocaine and everything, they decided to start a festival with the good things.

>> Harlem Day grew into Harlem Week.

>> Into Harlem Week.

>> Now it's 48 days.

>> Yes.

And last year, this -- I'm on the board of that.

And last year, we had 1.6 billion hits, impressions all around the world.

So, I stay with the community.

You have to keep your pulse on what's going on.

And young people have it.

I have mentors from 8 years old to 80.

I just do it.

I don't -- I do get afraid, but I'm never fearful.

I'm more afraid of what would happen if I don't do it.

You know, I never took myself out of a dream, you know, because God doesn't give you -- God gives you dreams.

He doesn't give you a budget.

And as long as you have that... >> Well, we're very grateful that your dream has become the dream of thousands and millions of others.

>> Thank you.

>> Irene Gandy, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you so much.

♪ >> Jim Winston, president and C.E.O.

of the National Association of Black Owned Broadcasters, NABOB, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you.

It's a pleasure being here.

I'm always pleased to have a chance to interact with you, sir.

>> Thank you.

Man, you have such an illustrious career.

I want to start at the beginning.

You were born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

>> Correct.

>> Great one-time steel town.

>> Right.

Exactly.

>> Still a great city.

>> Yes.

>> And you went to where?

The University of Pennsylvania?

>> The University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, for undergraduate school, where I got a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering.

>> So, how do you wind up at Harvard Law School?

>> Well, about two years into my engineering degree, I realized this was a big mistake.

[ Chuckles ] And so I figured out the easiest thing for me to do was to finish up that degree and then do something else.

So, when I was graduating from engineering school, there were three things you could do with a bachelor's degree in engineering other than engineering.

One was you could go to med school, you could go to urban-design school, or you could go to law school.

Med school was out 'cause I didn't want to see any blood.

So, urban-design school seemed too narrow.

Law, I knew, had a lot of opportunities for career advancement, and so that's how I ended up in law school.

And it was my roommate, who was applying to Harvard at the same time, who said -- He was applying.

I said, "Harvard?

Man, that's too hard to get in to."

He said, "Well, I'm applying."

I said, "Well, if you're applying, I'm applying."

And we both got in.

>> And after finishing law school, you wind up with the Federal Communications Commission.

>> Yes.

>> The FCC.

>> That was an interesting experience.

I was working in Washington and I got a call from a friend of mine who was working at the FCC.

He was working in the chairman's office.

And he said, "Commissioner Lee would like to interview you for a job in his office as a legal adviser."

And I said, "Commissioner Robert E. Lee, the Republican?"

And he said, "Yes."

I said, "Does he know the important fact about me?"

And he said, "Yes, and he wants to interview you."

So, I went in with great trepidation.

I sat down.

The first thing the commissioner said is, "I want you to know I have nothing to do with that Confederate general.

I'm named after Robert Emmet, who was an Irish revolutionary."

>> Alright.

So there's more than one Robert E. Lee.

>> Exactly., And he said, "I'm an Irish Catholic from Chicago."

And from that point, we had a great conversation.

He offered me the job on the spot.

I accepted on the spot.

And I had two years working for him that was two of the best years of my career.

>> Black Radio was the drumbeat of the Black community.

You've seen the high points and the low points of Black-owned radio.

Give us an assessment, Jim Winston -- what's happening with Black Radio in America today?

>> Alright, well, as you said, there was a time when Black Radio was the primary source of news and information, of music development, everything in the Black community.

And what we have found over the years, we've got new delivery systems.

We've got the Internet.

We've got mobile devices.

We've got a lot of things that are providing information and entertainment to the Black community.

>> Right.

Social media.

>> Social media.

And all those dynamics are changing.

However, the core principle of radio still remains.

Because it is a professional medium, because you get professional people working in it, in news, in music, and whatever, you're going to get a higher quality.

You know, in the Internet, everybody's their own everything.

You're your own editor.

You're your own producer.

You're your own everything.

And people -- The vast majority of people aren't trained in those things.

So what you find is that people still rotate back to Black-owned radio when they want to learn what's really going on.

So, we still find ourselves that we are still the primary and principal voice for the Black community in the places where we are operating, even today.

Now, the Internet makes interesting changes in that business, because you can't have any business in the entertainment or information arena and not be on the Internet in some fashion.

You've got to have apps.

You've got to have mobile devices.

You've got to have all the things that the audience, as a whole, wants to connect with.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And, so, our stations are doing that.

But the simple truth is that the advertising revenues that any individual station can get from those Internet-related services are much, much lower than what you get as a broadcaster.

So you have to be there because your audience is there, but your core business is and continues to be broadcast radio or broadcast television.

>> Tell us how regulation today affects whether or not there's sustainability in Black-owned radio.

>> Well, let me go back a little bit to the founding of NABOB.

NABOB was founded in 1976.

And it was founded because a small group of Black owners realized that they all had the same problem.

And there were two fundamental problems.

One, there weren't enough of them, and, two, advertisers didn't know what to do with them.

And, so, NABOB was founded to address those two issues -- to increase the number of African-Americans who owned radio and television stations and to educate the advertising community as to why they should do business with us.

So, at the same time, the Federal Communications Commission was under a mandate from the courts to begin to address minority ownership, from the courts, and from Congress, they said, "You need to have a policy to promote minority ownership."

In 1978, the FCC created its minority-ownership policy, which had several smaller policies underneath it, but there was one primary policy, which is called the tax-certificate policy.

The tax-certificate policy was the greatest -- had the greatest impact on increasing minority ownership across the board ever, because the policy said, "If you are the owner of a radio or television station and you sell that station to a company owned and controlled by minorities, by 51% control of minorities, you get to defer the capital-gains tax on that sale."

So, for example, I've got -- >> For how long is the deferment?

>> And the deferral was two years, if you just took the money and put it in your pocket.

If you took the money and reinvested it in another broadcast property, you deferred the capital-gains tax until you sold that property.

So you could defer the tax for 20 years, 30 years, the rest of your life.

So you can see the -- You can see -- I can see on your face, you see what that means.

So if I've got a station -- >> That was an incentive.

>> I've got a station I bought for $1 million.

I sell it to a minority-owned company for $5 million, I've got a $4 million capital gain.

I owe the federal government $1 million in taxes.

25% tax on that sale.

If I can defer that $1 million tax payment, I'm a happy man.

So, what happened?

From never being advised when the good stations were for sale -- We would -- Our owners would pick up the trade press and see a station down the street got sold, and it was like, "I didn't even know it was for sale."

Because all that was going on through an old-boy network.

Once the tax-certificate policy came, ring-ring!

"Hey, you want to buy my station?"

Suddenly, people were offering stations to us that we would never have seen.

>> So they can get the tax break.

>> So they can get the tax break.

It wasn't altruism.

[ Laughs ] It was because they were gonna get a huge tax break.

As a result, in 1978, we had 37 Black-owned radio stations, one Black-owned television station.

When the policy was eliminated, repealed by Congress in 1995, we had 250 Black-owned radio stations and 25 Black-owned television stations, primarily because of the tax-certificate policy.

>> That's a big growth.

>> That was a huge growth.

And it's interesting.

Because it's, "Is the glass half full or glass half empty?"

Because at that point, at our highest point, we had 250 radio stations out of 10,000 in the United States.

So we were still like 2%.

We had 25 television stations out of 1,100 television stations in the United States.

We were at just under 2%.

So, in spite of that huge growth, we were still a fraction of what we should be, based upon our population in the country.

>> What are the prospects today for Black-owned radio or Black-owned television?

>> Well, the -- As I said, the tax-certificate policy was a critical thing that made the difference.

Between -- After 1995, when it was repealed by the Republican Congress, we saw our numbers continue to fall off in radio, and they're still falling.

They've been stabilizing the last few years, but we're down -- We were at 250 radio stations in 1995.

We're at 180 now.

So our numbers have fallen off over the years as a result of that.

So, what do we need?

We need reinstatement of the tax-certificate policy.

We were very pleased that Congressman G.K. Butterfield, from North Carolina, introduced a reinstatement of the tax-certificate policy in the last Congress.

He got it approved out of committee in the last Congress, but was not able to get it passed.

So he's reintroducing it again in this Congress, and we are very happy to be working with him -- >> G.K. Butterfield is a stalwart, and I'm glad to know that he's putting public policy to enhance opportunities for Black-owned radio and Black-owned television.

>> Yeah, Congressman Butterfield has been really active on this issue.

You know, sometimes, members of Congress introduce a bill because they want to say they did.

He's been actually fighting on behalf of this bill for years now, and we're very pleased to be working with him on it.

>> From the perspective of commercial radio, how do we get more young people in the pipeline so that they could be ready to take the reins of the Black radio stations?

>> I'm glad you said that, because NABOB has a foundation called -- The NABOB Foundation runs something called the Media Sales Institute.

It's a 10-day intensive program that we give to recent college graduates, career changers, or ex-military.

We invite them to apply to the program.

And we take about 16 -- Between 16 and 20 candidates every year.

We give them a 10-day on-campus intensive experience in sales, in radio-station sales, television-station sales, cable-television sales, digital sales, print sales.

And the program gives them -- Each one of the candidates is given a real-life advertising pitch that they have to present at the end of the 10-day program.

The pitch is made to actual business recruiters, who come in and watch these students do a sales presentation.

At the end of that, the candidates are then given an opportunity to be invited to these companies to be having formal interviews.

Every year, we have major success.

The top candidates from the program will get 7 or 8 interview opportunities for these companies.

We have 85% to 90% of our candidates get full-time-job offers within the 90 days after the program is over.

>> How do you apply for the program?

>> There's a website.

It's themsi.net.

And people -- And if they don't remember that, www.nabob.org.

You can come to our website, and it connects to the NABOB Foundation.

And you can get there that way.

But anybody who is a young person looking for a career in radio or television or cable-television sales, print sales, digital sales, it's a guaranteed program with a 20-year success record.

>> Nabob.org.

>> Nabob.org.

And you can get the information right there.

>> Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule.

Jim Winston, the president and C.E.O.

of the National Association of Black Owned Broadcasters.

>> It's been a pleasure.

Thank you very much.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪