ANNOUNCER: THE POLICE SHOOTING OF MICHAEL BROWN IN FERGUSON, MISSOURI SPARKED A NATIONAL PROTEST MOVEMENT OVER THE FAIRNESS OF CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND BROADER ISSUES OF RACE RELATIONS.

WHILE THE FACTS OF ANY PARTICULAR CASE ARE NEVER BEST TRIED IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, CERTAIN FACTS ARE NOT IN DISPUTE.

LOOKING GLOBALLY, UNITED STATES IMPRISONS AN EXTRAORDINARY LARGE NUMBER AND AN EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF ITS PEOPLE, AND THAT INCARCERATED POPULATION IS DISPROPORTIONATELY PEOPLE OF COLOR.

BEYOND THAT, THE TALK GIVEN BY AFRICAN-AMERICAN PARENTS TO THEIR CHILDREN, ESPECIALLY THEIR YOUNG MEN, ABOUT DANGEROUS INTERACTIONS THEY MAY WELL EXPERIENCE WITH POLICE IS A RITE OF PASSAGE WITH WHICH EVEN THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ONLY CURRENTLY SERVING AFRICAN-AMERICAN REPUBLICAN UNITED STATE SENATOR ARE PERSONALLY FAMILIAR.

STILL, MOST AMERICANS HOLD JUDGES, PROSECUTORS, AND ESPECIALLY POLICE IN HIGH ESTEEM FOR THE OFTEN GREAT SACRIFICES THEY MAKE TO PROTECT AND SERVE OUR COMMUNITIES.

CAN THE NATION COME TO SOME CONSENSUS ON THESE ISSUES?

CAN WE FIND A PATH FORWARD IN WHICH A BROAD MAJORITY OF AMERICANS, INCLUDING AMERICANS BELONGING TO RACIAL OR ETHNIC MINORITIES, CAN BELIEVE THAT AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE IS, IN FACT, JUST?

THIS EPISODE OF "THE WHOLE TRUTH" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... AND BY... FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS IN ENGLISH-SPEAKING COURTROOMS AROUND THE WORLD, PEOPLE HAVE SWORN AN OATH TO TELL NOT ONLY THE TRUTH, BUT RATHER THE WHOLE TRUTH.

THE OATH REFLECTS THE WISDOM THAT FAILING TO TELL ALL OF A STORY CAN BE AS EFFECTIVE AS LYING IF YOUR GOAL IS TO MAKE THE FACTS SUPPORT YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

IN THE COURTROOM, THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH ALSO RELIES ON ADVOCATES ADVANCING FIRM, CONTRADICTORY ARGUMENTS AND DOING SO WITH DECORUM.

ALL OF THESE APPLY TO THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, WHAT JOHN STUART MILL CALLED THE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS.

THIS SERIES IS A PLACE IN WHICH THE COMPETING VOICES ON THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES OF OUR TIME ARE CHALLENGED AND SET INTO MEANINGFUL CONTEXT SO THAT VIEWERS LIKE YOU CAN DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES THE WHOLE TRUTH.

BLACK LIVES MATTER, ALL LIVES MATTER.

ARE THE AMERICAN FLAG AND THE NATIONAL ANTHEM TO BE TREATED AS SYMBOLS OF A LAND OF FREEDOM AND EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW OR TO BE PROTESTED AS SYMBOLS OF A LAND OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM?

IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, THESE SLOGANS AND COUNTER-SLOGANS, POINTS AND COUNTERPOINTS HAVE NEARED THE TOP OF THE LIST OF DEEPLY DIVISIVE SOCIAL AND CULTURAL ISSUES IN OUR COUNTRY.

ON TODAY'S EPISODE OF "THE WHOLE TRUTH," WE TAKE UP THE QUESTION OF THE FUNDAMENTAL JUSTICE OF THE AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

WE WANT TO EXPLORE FACTS BEHIND THE POLITICAL DEBATES OVER CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND VARIOUS PERSPECTIVES ON WAYS TO MOVE THE SYSTEM BOTH TO A DEEPER REALITY AND A BROADER PERCEPTION OF LIVING UP TO THE PRINCIPLES ON WHICH WE ALL AGREE IT SHOULD BE BASED.

JOINING US HERE TODAY FOR THIS DISCUSSION ARE TARA SETMAYER, A POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR FOR ABC NEWS AND FORMER G.O.P.

COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR ON CAPITOL HILL; PAUL BUTLER, A PROFESSOR AT THE GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER AND HARVARD LAW SCHOOL AND AUTHOR OF "CHOKEHOLD: POLICING BLACK MEN;" AND RICK JONES, PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYERS AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD DEFENDER SERVICE OF HARLEM.

WE HAVE A PRETTY BROAD SUBJECT TODAY.

THIS IS ESSENTIALLY THE STATE OF OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IN RECENT YEARS, THE UBIQUITY OF VIDEO RECORDING AMERICA HAS SEEN POLICE OFFICERS KILL A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF UNARMED AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

THESE CASES HAVE GIVEN RISE TO PROTESTS-- PEACEFUL, VIOLENT-- BUT GIVING RISE ABOVE ALL TO HEATED DEBATES ABOUT THE FAIRNESS OF AMERICAN POLICING AND THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

I'D LIKE TO START JUST POSING A BROAD QUESTION FOR EVERYBODY ON YOUR VIEW OF THE REALITY OF A TERM THAT WE HAVE HEARD A GREAT DEAL: INSTITUTIONAL RACISM IN AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

RICK, WHAT DO YOU SAY?

IS THIS A REAL TERM?

IT ABSOLUTELY IS A REAL TERM.

IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE MEAN BY REALITY, THE FACT IS THAT OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS RACIST AND THE FACT IS THAT OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS RACIST INTENTIONALLY SO.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT IF YOU LOOK AT ANY ASPECT OF OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FROM THE FRONT END OF POLICING AND ARRESTS AND PRETRIAL DETENTION TO THE BACK END OF CHARGING AND SENTENCING AND COLLATERAL CONSEQUENCES, YOU WILL SEE RACISM AND DISPARITY AT EVERY TURN AND AT EVERY JUNCTURE IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

SO THE FACT OF RACISM EXISTS WHETHER IT'S A NATIONAL REALITY IN TERMS OF DO AMERICANS BELIEVE THAT IT'S RACIST OR DO THEY EMBRACE THE IDEA THAT IT'S RACIST.

I THINK THAT THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

DAVID: THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

NOW WOULD YOU--NOW, I'M GOING TO ASK EACH ONE IN TURN.

BUT I'M KIND OF GROPING FOR A DEFINITION HERE.

WOULD YOU DEFINE RACISM AS THE DISPARITY?

RICK: YES.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU JUST HAVE DIFFERENT PATTERNS...

YES.

A DIFFERENT TREATMENT OF PEOPLE?

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

AND I MEAN, YOU CAN SEE IT IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS OVER HISTORY.

I MEAN, FROM EARLIEST HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY THROUGH TODAY, I MEAN, YOU CAN SEE THE DISPARITY AND YOU CAN LOOK AT WHETHER IT'S DIFFERENCES IN CRACK COCAINE, WHETHER IT'S DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY WE PROSECUTED THE WAR ON DRUGS WHEN IT WAS RELATED TO CRACK AND THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT OPIOIDS NOW AND THE OPIOID ADDICTION, ABSOLUTELY THERE IS AN INSTITUTIONAL, SYSTEMIC, STRUCTURAL RACISM THAT EXISTS IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, AND IT IS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY.

MEANT TO BE THAT WAY.

PAUL?

I WAS A PROSECUTOR IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, AND I REPRESENTED THE GOVERNMENT IN CRIMINAL COURT, AND MY WORK WAS PUTTING BLACK MEN IN PRISON.

IF YOU GO TO CRIMINAL COURT IN D.C., IN NEW YORK, IN L.A., YOU WOULD THINK THAT WHITE PEOPLE DON'T COMMIT CRIMES.

YOU WOULD THINK THAT WHITE PEOPLE DON'T USE DRUGS, THEY DON'T STEAL, THEY DON'T GET INTO FIGHTS, AND WE KNOW THAT THAT'S NOT THE REALITY.

BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT WHO'S LOCKED UP, IT'S OVERWHELMINGLY PEOPLE OF COLOR.

NOW LOOK, I WAS A PROSECUTOR.

I WORKED WITH POLICE, I DON'T THINK THE AVERAGE COP IS ANY MORE RACIST THAN THE AVERAGE LAW PROFESSOR.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT BAD APPLE COPS; THE PROBLEM IS THE SYSTEM IS WORKING THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO.

AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN ESPECIALLY ARE TARGETED AND SET UP TO FAIL.

SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM, WHICH IS WHAT-- EXACT, SO, TWO-- BOTH OF YOU APPEAR TO CONCUR ON THAT.

TARA?

I THINK THAT WE CAN CERTAINLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE ARE FLAWS IN OUR SYSTEM AND THAT THE INEQUITIES OF THE WAY THAT OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IS APPLIED BEAR OUT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I THINK AT THIS POINT, THOUGH, WE NEED TO BE FOCUSED MORE ON HOW DO WE EFFECTUATE CHANGE IN THOSE SYSTEMS BECAUSE CONTINUING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROBLEM WITHOUT MAKING CHANGE IS MOOT.

SO I THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING CONSERVATIVES, IT'S BECOME A BIPARTISAN ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IN THIS COUNTRY BASED UPON A NUMBER OF FACTORS, AND THE FACT THAT THERE IS DISPROPORTIONATE PUNISHMENT IS ONE OF THOSE AREAS THAT I THINK PEOPLE CAN NO LONGER IGNORE.

WELL, AND I WOULD SAY ALSO AS A CITIZEN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AMAZES ME ABOUT THIS IS IT FEELS LIKE I'VE BEEN LIVING-- OR WE'VE BEEN LIVING-- WITH THIS PROBLEM MY ENTIRE LIFE.

I GO BACK TO THE KERNER COMMISSION, I GO BACK TO THE LATE 1960s, WHERE THE PROBLEM OF URBAN VIOLENCE AND SO FORTH IS BEING STUDIED, AND THE IDEA OF AMERICA EVOLVING INTO A NATION, ONE BLACK, ONE WHITE, IS SOMETHING THAT WE RECOGNIZED, ACKNOWLEDGED OVER 40 YEARS AGO, AND HERE WE ARE.

WE ARE STILL ON THIS SUBJECT.

SO THERE'S-- PAUL: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENED, THOUGH, IS SINCE THE 1960s, IS THAT MORE PEOPLE ARE IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, SO THE KERNER COMMISSION RECOGNIZED THAT THE PROBLEM WAS STRUCTURAL RACISM.

STRUCTURAL RACISM.

IN OTHER WORDS, A SYSTEM WHICH IS DOING AS IT IS DESIGNED TO DO IN EFFECT.

INCARCERATE PEOPLE.

WHAT DOES THE STRUCTURE, WHAT IS THIS STRUCTURE?

IT'S A STRUCTURE OF PROSECUTORS AND LAWMAKERS AND WHAT?

RICK: I MEAN, IT'S A WHOLE SYSTEM, AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS IT GOES BEYOND JUST THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

I MEAN, I AGREE THAT AT SOME POINT WE NEED TO GET TO SOLUTIONS, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WE ARE AT A CONSENSUS YET IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING THE GRAVITY OF THE SYSTEM AND REALLY EMBRACING IT.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT PEOPLE TALK IN TERMS OF A BROKEN SYSTEM, BUT I THINK THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS IS THAT WE DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW BROKEN OUR SYSTEM IS UNTIL WE DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT IT'S RACIST.

OUR SYSTEM IS RACIST, AND AS LONG AS IT'S RACIST, IT MAKES IT ILLEGITIMATE, AND WE CAN'T REALLY GET TO THE UNDERLYING BROKENNESS OF IT BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WORKS WELL FOR SOME FOLKS.

THE SYSTEM WORKS VERY WELL FOR SOME FOLKS.

SO I THINK THAT WE NEED TO GET TO SOLUTIONS, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO COME TO SOME AGREEMENT, AND WE'RE NOT THERE IN TERMS OF THE FACT THAT THE SYSTEM REALLY IS STRUCTURALLY RACIST.

I THINK PEOPLE WILL TALK IN TERMS OF DISPARITY, BUT NOT REALLY, NOT REALLY RACISM.

NOW, I UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT WORD MEANS-- RACIST.

WHAT I THINK THAT MAYBE PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND FULLY IS WHAT THE EXPERIENCE IS.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT'S A WORD.

IT DESCRIBES A SYSTEM.

WE UNDERSTAND WHEN WE HEAR THE WORD, WE KNOW THAT WE'RE IN A POLITICAL ARGUMENT, THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE PUSHING FOR FUNDAMENTAL CHANGES AND SO FORTH.

THAT'S WHAT THE WORD SAYS.

WHAT I THINK THAT MIGHT BE MISSING IN WHAT THE LATEST, THE FERGUSON AND OTHER EVENTS THAT HAVE HAPPENED RECENTLY, IS THEY ARE SHINING A LIGHT ON THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE THAT PEOPLE HAVE.

WHAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM?

YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THAT IN "CHOKEHOLD."

PAUL: I DID.

AND SO WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE ADVICE THAT I HAVE FOR YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN WHO WANT TO AVOID THE ATTENTION OF THE POLICE.

SO DON'T GET STOPPED.

HOW TO AVOID GETTING ARRESTED.

SO WHAT I RECOMMEND TO NOT GET STOPPED, I SAY, "WHAT ATTRACTS THE ATTENTION OF THE POLICE?

"3 OR MORE BLACK MEN IN A CAR, A BLACK MAN IN A LATE- OR A NEW-MODEL CAR, BLACK MEN IN A GROUP LAUGHING TOO LOUDLY."

ERIC GARNER SELLING A SINGLE TOBACCO CIGARETTE.

HE GETS LOCKED UP AND KILLED.

WELL, THAT'S OVERSIMPLIFYING WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE ERIC GARNER CASE.

I DON'T REALLY WANT TO RE-LITIGATE THAT, OTHER THAN THE FACT, I MEAN, HE DID HAVE A RECORD.

HE'D BEEN ARRESTED OVER 30 TIMES.

THE PEOPLE WERE FAMILIAR WITH HIM.

HE RESISTED ARREST.

BUSINESS OWNERS-- PAUL: YOU MUST NOT HAVE SEEN THE VIDEO THAT I SAW.

I SAW THE VIDEO.

I COME FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT FAMILY.

MY HUSBAND IS A FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

MY GRANDFATHER WAS CAPTAIN OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IN MY HOMETOWN.

I HAVE DONE RIDE-ALONGS.

I'VE BEEN IN CITIZENS POLICE ACADEMIES.

I TRY TO BRING A BALANCED PERSPECTIVE FROM WHAT HAPPENS WITH POLICE AND STUFF-- SO YOU KNOW THAT CHOKEHOLDS ARE AGAINST NYPD POLICY?

YES, THEY ARE.

AND THAT'S WHY THAT OFFICER IS NO LONGER ON THE STREETS.

BUT THERE WAS A BLACK SERGEANT ON SCENE THERE.

THE OVERWHELMING EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE THAT WAS HEARD BY THE JURY COMES INTO PLAY WITH THIS, SO WHETHER IT WAS AGAINST POLICY AND RISES TO CRIMINALITY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.

IF YOU TALK ABOUT CIVIL LIBERTIES, THE COUNTRY THAT AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN LIVE IN IS NOT A FREE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHAT ATTRACTS THE ATTENTION OF THE POLICE TO US.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FERGUSON REPORT, THAT'S THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE'S REPORT ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN FERGUSON.

EVERY TIME THE FERGUSON POLICE USED A DOG, THEY USED IT AGAINST AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN PERSON.

THERE IS A WOMAN WHO CALLED THE POLICE IN FERGUSON BECAUSE HER BOYFRIEND WAS BEATING HER UP.

BY THE TIME THE COPS GOT THERE, HE WAS GONE.

COPS LOOK AROUND THE HOUSE, SAY, "DOES HE LIVE HERE?"

SHE SAYS, "YES, HE DOES."

COPS SAY, "YOU'RE UNDER ARREST FOR OCCUPANCY PERMIT VIOLATION."

WHEN THAT HAPPENED TO ANOTHER WOMAN IN FERGUSON, SHE SAID SHE WOULD NEVER CALL THE POLICE AGAIN.

SHE DIDN'T CARE IF SHE WAS BEING KILLED.

SO WE CAN GIVE IT A FANCY NAME LIKE STRUCTURAL RACISM, BUT THE FACT IS, EVERY TIME THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE LOOKS CLOSELY AT A POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT FINDS THAT THESE KINDS OF THINGS HAPPEN TO BLACK PEOPLE AND LATINO PEOPLE AS POLICY.

I WOULD PUSH BACK ON THAT A LITTLE BIT.

THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE, YES, THERE ARE DEFICIENCIES IN POLICING.

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IT IN CONTEXT AND PROPORTIONALITY.

ALSO, THOSE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN FERGUSON, THOSE ARE BREAK-DOWNS IN POLICING.

POOR TRAINING, NOT HAVING ENOUGH MINORITY POLICE OFFICERS THAT REFLECT THE COMMUNITY THERE, WHICH IS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT CAN HELP WITH UNDERSTANDING THE DYNAMICS OF CERTAIN COMMUNITIES AND POLICING THEM.

BUT ALSO IN FERGUSON, THERE WAS ANOTHER BREAK DOWN IN THE CITY HAD A QUOTA, THEY HAD A QUOTA FOR-- THERE WAS ANOTHER PART OF THAT REPORT THAT TALKED ABOUT BLACK DRIVERS GETTING PULLED OVER MORE OFTEN FOR MINOR INFRACTIONS.

WHEN YOU PUT THAT IN PLACE, THAT'S A MUNICIPALITY ISSUE.

THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BLACK OR WHITE.

DAVID: WHAT DO YOU MEAN, QUOTA?

THEY EXPECT, LIKE HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., THEY EXPECT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF REVENUE FROM PARKING TICKETS.

GOT IT.

GOT IT.

SAME THING IN FERGUSON.

THE TOWN HAS A BUDGET.

THEY EXPECT A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF REVENUE TO COME IN FROM CERTAIN VIOLATIONS, AND BECAUSE THE CITY WAS OVERWHELMINGLY AFRICAN-AMERICAN, THEY'RE CAUGHT UP IN THOSE SWEEPS, AND THAT'S NOT RIGHT, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WAS BEING CHANGED.

BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE CONTEXT WITH THIS.

I DON'T THINK THAT RACISM IS ALWAYS WHAT'S AT PLAY HERE.

WE CAN'T IGNORE INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOR.

WE CAN'T IGNORE CRIMINALITY.

THOSE ARE MORE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS AND WHAT'S AT THE ROOT OF THOSE.

BUT THAT PLAYS A FACTOR ALSO.

THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF COMMUNITY AND INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY THAT GOES INTO THE OUTCOMES THAT HAPPENS WITH INTERACTIONS WITH POLICE, WHETHER IT'S BLACK OR WHITE.

PAUL: ONE OF THE THINGS I WANT TO THINK ABOUT IS INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY AND WHAT THAT MEANS.

BECAUSE A LOT OF FOLKS SAY, WELL, IF BLACK MEN WOULD JUST PULL UP THEIR PANTS, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING STOPPED AND FRISKED BY OR SHOT BY THE COPS.

SO THERE IS THIS NARRATIVE THAT THE PROBLEM IS REALLY YOUNG, BLACK MEN.

AND WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE REASONS THAT AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY AT RISK FOR CERTAIN KINDS OF STREET CRIME, THE COMMUNITY, THE GOVERNMENT IS WILLING TO INVEST MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITIES.

IN HARLEM, IN THE BRONX, THERE ARE MILLION-DOLLAR BLOCKS, WHICH MEANS THAT ON THAT ONE BLOCK, THAT'S HOW MUCH MONEY THE GOVERNMENT IS SPENDING TO LOCK UP PEOPLE.

WHAT IF, WHAT IF WE SPENT THAT MONEY ON JOB TRAINING, ON BETTER SCHOOLS, ON HEALTHCARE.

SO AGAIN, IT'S NOT LIKE WE DON'T WANT TO SPEND MONEY ON BLACK BOYS.

WE DO, IT'S JUST WE WANT TO DEVOTE THAT MONEY TO LOCKING FOLKS UP.

1963, 1964, THIS IS A CIVIL-RIGHTS ERA.

WE HAD THE MATTER OF WHAT RESTAURANT YOU CAN ENTER OR WHETHER YOU CAN USE FACILITIES OR WHATEVER.

THIS BECOMES A QUESTION OF EQUAL ACCESS TO PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS.

IT BECOMES EQUAL ACCESS TO PUBLIC EDUCATION.

THAT WAS THE CIVIL-RIGHTS QUESTION OF THE EARLY 1960s.

TODAY PERHAPS THIS COMES DOWN TO THE EXERCISE OF POLICE POWER, THAT IS, HOW CRIMINAL LAWS, WHICH MEAN THE SAME THING IN EVERY LANGUAGE, ARE ADMINISTERED IN LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

OUR RESPONSE TO THE 1960s WAS TO NATIONALIZE SEGREGATION PRACTICES, TO NATIONALIZE THEM AND TO ELIMINATE SEGREGATION PRACTICES.

DO WE NEED A NATIONAL RESPONSE TO THIS?

COULD YOU SEE A NATIONAL POLICE FORCE?

COULD YOU SEE A... COULD YOU SEE NATIONAL STANDARDS?

I THINK NATIONAL STANDARDS FOR TRAINING, FOR QUALIFICATIONS, AND CHOKEHOLD.

I RECOMMEND THAT HALF OF POLICE OFFICERS BE FEMALE.

WOMEN OFFICERS ARE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO USE VIOLENCE, AND THEY'RE JUST AS GOOD AT WORKING OUT DISPUTES, BUT THEY DON'T LOCK UP AS MANY PEOPLE, THEY DON'T BEAT UP AS MANY PEOPLE.

NOW, LOCAL JURISDICTIONS AREN'T GOING TO DO THAT ON THEIR OWN.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT WOULD BE SORT OF A NATIONAL...

SORT OF A NATIONAL DRIVE.

YES.

THEY NEED PRESSURE FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

YOU KNOW, WORKING ON THE HILL, THAT THERE'S A LOT OF BUDGETARY THING THAT CONGRESS OR THE PRESIDENT COULD DO TO MAKE POLICE DEPARTMENTS BE MORE RESPONSIVE TO THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY SERVE, SO I THINK THERE ARE IMPORTANT KINDS OF REFORMS TO THINK ABOUT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT STRUCTURAL RACISM, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT TRANSFORMATION.

WE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT REFORMING SLAVERY.

WE TALKED ABOUT ABOLISHING IT.

WE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT REFORMING THE OLD JIM CROW, WE TALKED ABOUT ABOLISHING IT.

I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT ABOLITION, WHAT THAT MEANS.

SOUNDS RADICAL.

THE IDEA IN "CHOKEHOLD" IS ABOLITION OF PRISON.

DAVID: TO WHAT EXTENT IS THIS A COMMUNICATIONS PROBLEM?

AND I'LL SORT OF PHRASE IT THIS WAY.

DO AMERICANS, IN YOUR OPINION, WHO ARE NOT LIVING WITH THIS PROBLEM, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU'RE DESCRIBING A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE.

IN OTHER WORDS, MINORITY EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA AS A WHOLE.

DO THEY JUST SIMPLY NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?

IS THERE A LACK OF EMPATHY?

WELL, I THINK THAT THERE'S-- I'D LIKE TO THINK THAT PEOPLE PRESENTED WITH THE PROBLEM, UNDERSTANDING IT FULLY WOULD, UH, WOULD, UH...

I THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH BASED ON EXPERIENCE.

I MEAN, PEOPLE REACT TO THINGS BASED ON WHAT THEY EXPERIENCE PERSONALLY, SO THERE WILL BE A DIVIDE THERE AND YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENS IN CHICAGO, IN BALTIMORE, IS A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE THAN IN THE SUBURBS OF WASHINGTON OR NEW YORK CITY.

AND A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH SOCIOECONOMICS AND A LOT OF OTHER FACTORS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THOSE EXPERIENCES AND INTERACTIONS, BUT THE IDEA OF FEDERALIZING THINGS, I'M VERY RETICENT TO GO THAT ROUTE BECAUSE COMMUNITY POLICING AND TAILORING THINGS TO WHAT WORKS IN YOUR AREA I STILL THINK IS THE WAY TO GO BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAIN NATIONAL STANDARDS, LIKE FOR TRAINING ON CERTAIN THINGS ARE FINE, AND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CIVIL-RIGHTS THINGS, YES, THOSE ARE THINGS THAT CAN BE APPLIED NO MATTER WHAT.

YOU SAW CHANGES WERE MADE WITH TENNESSEE VS. GARNER IN USE-OF-FORCE POLICY.

I MEAN, BEFORE 1985, MANY DEPARTMENTS DIDN'T EVEN HAVE WRITTEN USE-OF-FORCE POLICIES.

THAT CHANGE WAS SOMETHING THAT BECAME A NATIONAL THING.

BUT COMMUNITY, I THINK KEEPING IT LOCAL IS THE BEST WAY TO MAKE CHANGES.

I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, IN NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT, THEIR POLICE ACADEMY, WITH THEIR RECRUITS, THEY DECIDED TO INCORPORATE COMMUNITY SERVICE WITH THEIR RECRUITS.

THEY HAVE TO PERFORM 40 HOURS.

THIS WAY, THEY HAVE INTERACTION WITH THE COMMUNITY THAT THEY'RE EXPECTED TO POLICE BEFORE THEY'RE OUT ON THE STREET AND IN FIELD TRAINING.

AND THAT HAS MADE AN EXPONENTIAL DIFFERENCE IN THE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE POLICE OFFICERS AND THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND THE COMMUNITIES THEY POLICE.

THEY RECOGNIZED THAT THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT NEEDED TO BE CHANGED TO HELP WITH THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE BEING SUSPICIOUS OF THE POLICE AND NEGATIVE IMPRESSIONS.

THAT HAS MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE, AND THAT'S JUST ONE SMALL EXAMPLE OF WHEN A LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT CAN EFFECT CHANGE.

I JUST WANT TO PICK UP ON A THREAD THAT EACH OF THEM RAISE THAT I THINK THAT WE SHOULD INJECT INTO THIS CONVERSATION.

AND THAT IS, ONE IS I WAS HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH THE CHIEF OF POLICE IN EAST PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA, WHO HAD GROWN UP IN THE POLICE SYSTEM, AND HE SAID THAT WHEN HE BECAME THE CHIEF, HE LOOKED AT THINGS THROUGH A DIFFERENT LENS AND FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, AND HE REALIZED THAT HIS FORCE WAS POLICING THE COMMUNITY FROM A PLACE OF FEAR.

THEY WERE POLICING FROM A PLACE OF FEAR AND THAT HE HAD TO REALLY WORK TO CHANGE THAT AND TO GET POLICE OUT OF THEIR CARS, ONTO THE STREETS, INTO THE COMMUNITIES SO THEY KNEW THE PEOPLE.

AND EVEN LIVING IN THE COMMUNITIES.

DAVID: BE SENSITIVE TO THE PROBLEM AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

AND THE SECOND IS, AND THIS IS A PHRASE I'VE TAKEN FROM BRYAN STEVENSON, IS PROXIMITY.

AND BEING PROXIMATE TO THINGS AND THAT WE CARE ABOUT THINGS WE ARE PROXIMATE TO, AND SO IF YOU CAN GET PEOPLE IN PROXIMITY, OUT OF THEIR SILOS, OUT OF THEIR IVORY TOWERS, OUT OF THEIR GOLDEN SKYSCRAPERS, YOU KNOW, INTO COMMUNICATIONS AND DIALOGUES AND BEING PROXIMATE WITH EACH OTHER.

IF YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH YOUNG BLACK MEN AS I HAVE, YOU SEE THAT THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT IN THEIR HOPES AND DREAMS AND WISHES AND ASPIRATIONS THAN YOUNG WHITE MEN.

THEY'RE NO DIFFERENT AT ALL.

IT'S THE LENS THROUGH WHICH WE VIEW THEM AND THE FEAR THAT WE PLACE UPON THEM, AND THAT CAUSES THE REACTION THAT WE HAVE TO THEM TO ENGAGE IN THESE FORMS SOCIAL CONTROL, BUT THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT AND DON'T NEED TO BE TREATED ANY DIFFERENT AND DON'T NEED TO BE FEARED THAN A GROUP OF YOUNG WHITE MEN.

AND THAT'S WHY FEDERALIZING THINGS IS A PROBLEM BECAUSE IT'S A LARGE COOKIE CUTTER APPROACH TO SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HELP.

FEDERALIZING A LOT OF CRIME IS WHAT'S GOTTEN US INTO THIS PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THERE'S BEEN 4,500 FEDERAL LAWS ADDED TO THE BOOKS SINCE 1980.

I DON'T THINK FEDERALIZING ANYTHING ELSE IS THE WAY TO GO.

PAUL: IN THIS WAY IT'S NOT A COMMUNICATIONS PROBLEM BECAUSE THOSE LAWS, THOSE 5,000 LAWS ARE SELECTIVELY APPLIED AGAINST AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN.

AND WHEN WE LOOK AT THE POLLS, HOW DO MOST WHITE PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT IT?

MOST WHITE PEOPLE ARE OK WITH THAT.

SO IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ONE OF THESE VIRAL VIDEOS, WHEN THE POLICE KILL AN UNARMED AFRICAN-AMERICAN MAN, MOST WHITE FOLKS THINK THAT THE POLICE ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOBS.

THEY'RE AFRAID OF BLACK MEN.

BLACK MEN MAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE ANXIOUS, AND SO WHEN WE LOOK AT SOME OF ROLLS OF OUR PRESENT SYSTEM, HOW MANY PEOPLE GET LOCKED UP, THE EROSION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES, HOW WRETCHED PRISON CONDITIONS ARE.

ALL OF THOSE ARE ABOUT CONTROLLING AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN.

WELL, THIS HAS BEEN A VERY SOBERING DISCUSSION., SOBERING BECAUSE I THINK THAT WE'VE, AT LEAST IN MY LIFETIME, THIS HAS BEEN A MAJOR, MAJOR NATIONAL ISSUE OVER DECADES, AND IN MANY WAYS, THE NUMBERS OR THE INDICATORS ARE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

AND WE HAVE HAD A SUDDEN REAWAKENING ON THIS MATTER OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.

AND I WISH WE COULD GO ON AND ON.

MAYBE, YES OR NO, MAYBE THERE'S A CONSENSUS HERE AT LEAST THAT MAYBE THE LEGAL TOOLS, THAT IS THE LAWS, ARE IN PLACE, BUT IT'S ADMINISTRATION OF LAW, AND IT'S GAINING THE CONFIDENCE OF COMMUNITIES AND EMPATHIZING WITH THE REALITIES THAT PEOPLE FACE IN THEIR DAY-TO-DAY LIVES AND SO FORTH THAT MAY BE THE GREAT CHALLENGE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I MEAN, THIS WAS TERRIFIC.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

GREAT.

PERCEPTIONS OF THE CURRENT STATE AND PROPER FUTURE FOR AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE HAVE BECOME ANOTHER RORSCHACH TEST FOR AMERICAN PUBLIC DISCOURSE.

DIFFERENT PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SAME INK BLOT BUT SEE VERY DIFFERENT PICTURES.

AND MANY OF US HEAR DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW ABOUT CRIME AND PUNISHMENT AND POLICING BUT CAN'T QUITE ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE SHARED VALUES THAT OFTEN, IN FACT, ARE CONTAINED WITHIN THE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.

SO LET'S BE CLEAR, THE WHOLE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT ALL LIVES DO MATTER, AND FOR THAT VERY REASON, THE LIVES OF BOTH YOUNG BLACK MEN IN AMERICA AND OF PEOPLE OF ALL COLORS WEARING POLICE UNIFORMS HAVE TO BOTH ESPECIALLY MATTER BECAUSE BOTH GROUPS ARE AT MUCH HIGHER RISK THAN AVERAGE OF HAVING THEIR LIVES CARELESSLY AND NEEDLESSLY TAKEN.

"THE WHOLE TRUTH" HAS SAID WHILE THE PRINCIPLE OF EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW WILL SURELY NEVER BE PERFECTLY REALIZED, THE GOAL OF MOVING CLOSER TO A SYSTEM THAT LIVES BY THAT PRINCIPLE MUST BE OF PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE FOR ALL AMERICANS.

I'M DAVID EISENHOWER, AND THANK YOU FOR ONCE AGAIN WATCHING "THE WHOLE TRUTH."

ANNOUNCER: THIS EPISODE OF "THE WHOLE TRUTH" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... AND BY...