>>> WE TURN TO WHAT ROLE DOES MARRIAGE PLAY IN AN AMERICAN SOCIETY?

OUR NEXT ROLE SAYS IT IS ESSENTIAL IN MAIN DETAINING HAPPINESS AND PROSPERITY.

GET MARRIED.

THAT IS THE ADVICE OF THE ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL MARRIAGE PROJECT, BRAD WILCOX.

WHY HE THINKS IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR POLICY MAKERS TO CONTINUE BACKING THIS 4,000-YEAR-OLD INSTITUTION AS IT BECOMES LESS MODERN IN OUR WORLD.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, MICHEL.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS CALLED "GET MARRIED."

WHY WE MUST SAVE CIVILIZATION.

NO BIG THING THERE.

WHY SHOULD PEOPLE GET MARRIED?

THE BIG QUESTION IS, YOU'RE VERY CLEAR ABOUT YOUR PRESCRIPTION HERE.

WHY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'VE BEEN HEARING A LOT OF VOICES LATELY.

FROM THE MAIN STREAM LEFT AND NOW THE RIGHT ENCOURAGING ADULTS TO STEER CLEAR OF MARRIAGE.

EVEN STEER CLEAR OF FAMILY LIFE.

ALL THE SACRIFICES AND STRESSES, THE DIFFICULT BUSINESS FOLLOW FOR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY ARE BEING PUT INTO THE FOREGROUND OF OUR CONVERSATION.

BUT THE DATA TELL A VERY DIFFERENT STORY.

THE BOOK IS IN PARCH EDUCATING ADULTS WITH ALL THE BENEFITS, INCLUDING GENERALLY SPEAKING MORE PROSPERITY AND GENERALLY SPEAKING MORE HAPPINESS.

THAT'S A BIG PART OF IT.

>> WHAT MADE YOU THINK OF MARRIAGE NOT JUST AS SOMETHING THAT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED, WHAT WE NEED TO THINK, BUT FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT.

HOW DID YOU GET STARTED WITH THAT?

>> I WAS RAISED BY A SINGLE MOM IN CONNECTICUT IN THE '70s AND '80s.

I WAS SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF OTHER KIDS WHOSE PARENTS GOT DIVORCED.

THAT WAS MY LIFE.

THEN I WENT TO COLLEGE AND HAD THIS UNSIGHT THAT DADS WERE IMPORTANT.

AND THAT IN GENERAL, THE WAY SOCIETIES TEND TO CONNECT DADS TO THEIR KIDS WAS THROUGH MARRIAGE.

SO MY INTEREST IN THIS TOPIC WAS IN PART DO TO MY EXPERIENCE IN MY OWN LIFE.

AND AS I'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK, I'VE BEEN FOCUSING MORE ON ADULTS AND LESS ON KIDS.

AS I TALKED TO THE STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA, I'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT THE PROSPECTS FOR DATING, FINDING GUYS WORTHY OF COMMITMENT, AND THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PROSPECTS FOR MARRIAGE.

SO THIS FOCUSES MORE ON ADULTS WHERE MY PREVIOUS BOOKS WERE ON MARRIAGE AND THE KIDS' STORIES.

>> ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE FIRST TIME IN THIS COUNTRY'S HISTORY, LESS THAN HALF OF AMERICAN ADULTS ARE MARRIED.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF BIG FACTORS INFLUENCING THIS RETREAT FROM MARRIAGE IN AMERICAN LIFE.

ONE IS THAT WE ARE A MUCH MORE AFFLUENT SOCIETIES.

I THINK PEOPLE DEPEND LESS ECONOMICALLY ON MARRIAGE.

WE ARE A MORE SEPARATED SOCIETY.

BECAUSE IT TENDS MOVE MORE THAN OTHERS.

WE ARE INDIVIDUALISTIC.

WE TEND TO PRIORITIZE OUR FREEDOM AND OUR CHOICES.

I WOULD POINT THE FINGER AT SHIFTS IN THE ECONOMY.

WE'VE SEEN OUR ECONOMY SHIFT IN WAYS THAT HAVE DISADVANTAGED MEN WHO DON'T HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES.

THEY'RE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO BE WORKING ON A FULL-TIME BASIS TAN THAN 40 YEARS AGO.

BECAUSE IT IS STILL THE CASE THAT WOMEN LIKE TO MARRY GUYS THAT HAVE A DECENT JOB.

THAT MEN ARE SEEING THEIR FAMILY FORTUNES DECLINE IN THIS ERA IS ONE FACTOR THAT ALSO EXPLAINS WHY I THINK MARRIAGE IS IN RETREAT.

AND THEN FINALLY, WOULD SAY THAT OUR POLICIES AREN'T PARTICULARLY HELPFUL.

WE HAVE MARRIAGE PENALTIES IN THINGS LIKE MEDICAID THAT ARE PART AND PARCEL OF WHY WE'RE SEEING MARRIAGE IN WORKING CLASS XUTS NOW IS ALSO RETREATING.

SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FACTORS ACTING IN CONCERT TO MAKE MARRIAGE LESS CENTRAL TO OUR SOCIETY.

>> SO GIVE IT TO US STRAIGHT HERE.

WHY SHOULD PEOPLE GET MARRIED?

>> THE BIG THING IS WE'RE SOCIAL ANIMALS.

AND I THINK HE WAS RIGHT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK WHAT MATTERS IS MONEY OR YOUR WORK, YOUR STATUS.

HE WOULD SAY WE'RE SOCIAL ANIMALS.

AND IT ENDS UP BEING IMPORTANT FOR US.

IT GIVES OUR LIVES MEANING AND PURPOSE.

EVEN MORE, THE OPPORTUNITIES TO RECEIVE CARE BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, OPPORTUNITIES TO CARE FOR OTHERS.

TO CARE FOR YOUR SPOUSE AND OFTEN TO CARE FOR KIDS.

WHEN WE HAVE THESE RELATIONSHIPS OF CARE AND CONCERN THAT ARE DRIVING AND ANIMATING OUR LIVES, WE'RE BETTER OFF.

WE'RE LESS LONELY.

WE REPORT THEIR LIVES ARE MORE MEANINGFUL.

WE'RE GENERALLY HAPPIER.

AND ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE, NOTHING QUESTION THAT BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE FINANCIALLY BETTER OFF.

THIS GOES AGAINST UNFORTUNATELY A LOT OF CONTEMPORARY MEDIA COMMENTARY.

WOMEN WHO ARE SINGLE GET RICHER.

THERE IS A LOT OF MRS. INFORMATION OUT THERE WHEN IT COME TO MARRIAGE.

A LOT OF WOMEN THINK THAT MARRIAGE AND MOTHERHOOD WILL MAKE THEM LESS HAPPY.

BUT THE DATA SHOWS A VERY DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

FOR MOST WOMEN AND MOST MEN, BOTH MARRIAGE AND PARENTHOOD ARE LINKED TO BETTER OUTCOMES EMOTIONALLY AND THEY'RE IN A MUCH BETTER PLACE, CHARACTERISTICS THANK TLN PEERS WHO ARE NEVER MARRIED OR DIVORCED AND NEVER REMARRIED.

>> ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT A LOT OF WELL EDUCATED PEOPLE, A LOT OF MONEY, ARE PEOPLE WITH COLLEGE DEGREES AND MONEY TEND TO WHAT YOU SAY, THEY TALK LEFT AND LIVE RIGHT.

OR WALK RIGHT.

TO SAY, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THESE SORTS OF POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY LIVE THESE TRADITIONALIST VALUES.

BUT THEY DON'T STAND UP FOR THEM.

YOU SEEM QUITE ANNOYED BY THIS.

>> YES.

I THINK THEY'RE NOT USING THEIR AUTHORITY, THEIR INFLUENCE, THEIR POWER TO ADVANCE THE COMMON GOOD.

AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF A VARIETY OF TOPICS LIKE THE ENVIRONMENT.

WHEN IT COMES TO MARRIAGE AND FAMILY, I THINK IT IS CLEARLY THE CASE THAT OUR KIDS, OUR ADULTS, OUR COMMUNITIES ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FLISHING.

SO THEY'RE BENEFITTING THEMSELVES PERSONALLY, EVEN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS.

MY NEIGHBORHOOD IS DOMINATED BY STABLE MARRIED FOLKS WHO ARE DOING WELL PROFESSIONALLY IN CHARLOTTESVILLE.

YET THE KIND OF PEOPLE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD ARE NOT LIKELY IN PUBLIC TO ADVOCATE FOR MARRIAGE OR ADVOCATE FOR THE IMPORTANCE OF STABLE FAMILIES AS PROFESSORS OR SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENTS OR EXECUTIVES, JOURNALISTS.

>> WHAT SHOULD THEY BE DOING THAT THEY'RE NOT DOING IN YOUR VIEW?

>> I THINK FOR INSTANCE WHEN IT COMES TO JOURNALISM.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS.

THERE WAS AN ARTICLE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" NOT TOO LONG AGO.

MARRIED MOTHERHOOD IN AMERICA IS A GAME THAT NO ONE WINS.

THIS WAS AN ARTICLE NOT REALLY BASED ON ANY STRONG EMPIRICAL RESEARCH.

YET PROMINENT PLACEMENT IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

I MENTIONED A BLOOMBERG PIECE THAT WAS WRONG.

SO PEOPLE ARE GETTING THIS FROM OUTLETS THAT ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH AND CAN LEAD THEM DOWN THE WRONG PATH.

>> ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU PLAYING IN THE BOOKS, PEOPLE HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

THEY THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE SOCIALLY ADEPT AND HAPPIER TO BEGIN WITH ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MARRIED.

OR HAVE MORE MONEY, FRANKLY.

AND YOU SAY IT IS THE OTHER WAY.

THAT BEING MARRIED MEANS YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE SOCIALLY ADEPT AND BE HAPPIER.

WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP?

YOU CAN SEE WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY, LIBESTEN.

CERTAIN GROUPS HAVE BEEN DISADVANTAGED FOR CENTURIES.

LIKE AFRICAN AMERICANS AS A GROUP HAVE A LOWER LEVEL.

>> I DO THINK THE ECONOMY IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE STORY.

WE'RE SEEING WORKING MEN, AND POOR MEN.

THERE IS A DIMENSION TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MARRIAGE IN AMERICA.

IT IS THE CASE THE WORKING CLASS AND POORER AMERICANS HAVE BEEN HIT HARD.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT.

I THINK IT IS ALSO THE CASE THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF CULTURAL FACTORS MADE LESS ASTAIN AN.

IS IT MARRIAGE THE MAKES THE MAN AND THE WOMAN OR CERTAIN KINDS OF MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO SELECT INTO MARRIAGE?

AND I THINK IT'S BOTH.

THE MASTERS OF MARRIAGE ARE ASIAN-AMERICANS, RELIGIOUS AMERICANS, CONSERVATIVE AMERICANS, AND COLLEGE EDUCATED AMERICANS.

THEY'RE THE ONES MORE LIKELY TO GET MARRIED IN THE FIRST PLACE AND TO BE HAPPILY AND STAYING MARRIED IN THE SECOND.

AND AN ENDOWMENT STORY.

MORE LIKELY TO HAVE FLOURISHING RELATIONSHIPS GENERALLY.

EVEN WHEN YOU CONTROL FOR THOSE FACTORS, YOU STILL SEE THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE WHO ARE PLAYER I HAD ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE FLOURISHING.

I CAN BASICALLY POINT OUT AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO ARE MARRIED ARE MARKEDLY HAPPIER AND BETTER OFF THAN THEIR AFRICAN AMERICAN PEERS WHO ARE NOT MARRIED.

I WOULD SAY IT IS MARRIAGE ITSELF, ON AVERAGE ARE FOR THE BETTER.

>> YOU SEEM SO IRRITATED WITH PEOPLE YOU CALL ELITES FOR NOT ESPOUSING THE VALUES OF MARRIAGE.

IT'S LIKE YOU SEE IT AS A FAILING OF LEADERSHIP.

I WONDER IS IT MORE A MATTER OF COURTESY?

THEY DON'T WANT OTHERS NOT EXPERIENCED IT TO FEEL BAD?

>> THAT'S A FAIR POINT.

IT IS EXTREMELY HARD FOR YOUNG ADULTS TO NAVIGATE RELATIONSHIPS SUCCESSFULLY.

AND THE VALUE OF MARRIAGE AND THE KINDS OF VIRTUES THAT WOULD HELP PEOPLE TO BE BETTER BOYFRIENDS AND GIRLFRIENDS AND SPOUSES DOWN THE ROAD, WE'RE MAKING IT HARDER FOR THEM TO REALIZE, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, THIS FUNDAMENTAL GOOD.

SO WE SEE DEATH AND DESPAIR ACROSS AMERICA AND HE FINDS FROM A REGIONAL PERSPECTIVE, ONE OF THE TOP FACTORS EXPLAINS WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKELY TO END UP DYING IN THESE REGIONS ACROSS AMERICA IS THEY'RE NOT MARRIED.

THE NUMBER ONE FACTOR EXPLAINS WHY HAPPINESS IN AMERICANS IS DOWN, IT IS BECAUSE FEWER AMERICANS ARE MARRIED.

IT IS THE SHARE OF KIDS BEING RAISED IN A COMMUNITY IN TWO-PARENT FAMILIES.

SO THIS IS A FUNDAMENTAL VALUE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO BE APPROACHING MARRIAGE IN A SCOLDING WAY BUT WE CAN AND SHOULD PAIN A TRUE PICTURE OF THE VALUE OF MARRIAGE FOR MOST PEOPLE AND HELP PEOPLE REALIZE THIS.

>> I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT SAME-SEX MARRIAGES.

YOU DO SPEAK ABOUT THIS.

YOU SAID THE REASON YOU DON'T TALK MORE ABOUT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE PER SE IS THAT YOU DON'T THINK THE SAMPLE SIZE IS ENOUGH TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS.

THE PERCENTAGE OF MARRIED COUPLES WHO ARE SAME-SEX.

I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH COUPLES TO LOOK AT TO DRAW CONCLUSIONS ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT THE MARRIAGE RATE HAS FALLEN.

YES.

YOU ALSO SAY THERE'S BEEN A 40% DECLINE IN THE DIVORCE RATE SINCE 1980.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> SO GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS IN THE BOOK.

THERE'S A CLOSING OF THE AMERICAN PART UNFOLDING WHERE FEWER ADULTS ARE DATING, MARRYING AND HAVING CHILDREN.

SEE FEWER ADULTS ARE GETTING IN THE FAMILY WAY, SO TO SPEAK.

THAT MEANS FOLKS GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING KIDS ARE MORE SELECTIVE.

MORE EDUCATED, MORE ATHLETIC, MORE RELIGIOUS TYPICALLY.

SO TRANSLATING IN PART TO LESS DIVORCE AND MORE SINGLE FAMILIES FOR KIDS.

>> FOR CENTURIES THE ONUS TO KEEP FAMILIES TOGETHER WAS ON WOMEN.

PARTLY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE INDEPENDENT SOURCES OF INCOME AND THERE WAS A POWERFUL INCENTIVE TO STAY IN RELATIONSHIP THAT'S WERE UNHEALTHY, EMOTIONALLY UNHEALTHY OR PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE IF THEY WERE.

WHAT DO WE DO DIFFERENTLY SO THAT ISN'T THE CASE.

>> >> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THE, THE RESPONSE THEIR BASICALLY IS TO SORT OF ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN BIG MISTAKES IN THE PAST.

BUT A LOT OF YOUNG SWOMEN AND MN ARE EXPRESSING THEIR CONCERNS.

I TALK ABOUT THEM IN THE BOOK.

WOMEN IN THEIR 30s AND THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO FIND A GUY WHO SEEMS LIKE HE'S INTERESTED IN A LONG-TERM COMMITMENT.

THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PROSPECTS.

NOT JUST FOR MARRIAGE BUT MOTHERHOOD AS WELL.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ACCESS FOR PLENTY AND WOMEN.

THAT'S WHY I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT MARRIAGE AND ITS VALUE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE AND INTO THE POP CULTURE, SOCIAL MEDIA.

IT WOULD BE HEPPLE.

AND WING OF THE THINGS I TALKED ABOUT, ENCOURAGED TO SIDE LINE.

NOW THAT SHE'S 34, THERE ARE NO PROSPECTS FOR HUSBANDS AND KIDS, SHE'S LIKE I WISH SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME DIFFERENTLY.

HAD ENCOURAGED ME A DECADE AGO TO BE A LOT MORE INTENTIONAL ABOUT FINDING A SPOUSE.

THAT'S THE MESSAGE THAT I WANT TO OFFER TO THE BROADER POPULATION.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT POLICY.

WHAT WOULD A PRO-MARRIAGE POLICY LOOK LIKE?

>> SO I TALK ABOUT GETTING RID OF THE MARRIAGE PENALTY.

THING LIKE PLED INDICATED.

SO COUPLES I SPOKE TO, LED THE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN GETTING MARRIED AND KEEPING THE KIDS ON MEDICAID.

THINK TALKING ABOUT A SUCCESS SEQUENCE IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THIS IDEA THAT IF YOU GET AT LEAST A HIGH SCHOOL DEGREE, GET MARRIED BEFORE HAVING KIDS, YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE FLOURISHING FINANCIALLY.

AND I THINK TRYING TO ADDRESS THE FACT A LOT OF GUYS WHO ARE NOT ON THAT MORE COLLEGE TRACK ARE FLOUNDERING TODAY IN OUR HIGH SCHOOLS AND DOING MORE TO BEEF UP THEIR EDUCATION TO GET GOOD JOBS.

TO MAKE THEM MORE MARRIAGEABLE.

>> WHAT RESPONSE ARE YOU GETTING TO THE BOOK?

IT'S BEEN OUT FOR A LITTLE BIT NOW.

>> I'M STRUCK BY HOW GENERALLY POSITIVE THE MEDIA COVERAGE HAS BEEN.

THERE IS A RECOGNITION THAT MARRIAGE IS IN TROUBLE IN TERMS OF THE TRAJECTORY.

IT'S ALWAYS THE CASE IN ALL HONESTLY IF YOU READ THE COMMENTS IN THE TWO MOST RECENT PIECES IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" ON MY WORK, A LOT OF COMMENTATORS, PARTICULARLY WOMEN, ARE TALKING DOWN MARRIAGE.

AND THEY'RE EXPRESSING A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE TREATED IN MARRIAGE.

AND THEY THINK IT IS THAT A GOOD DEAL FOR WOMEN.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE PLENTY OF WOMEN WHO HAVE HAD A TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE.

IF I WAS TO GO ON TO YOUTUBE, I CAN GET LITERALLY, AND HAVE GOTTEN LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF COMMENTS FROM MEN THAT ARE EXTREMELY NEGATIVE ABOUT WOMEN.

SO I'M SAYING THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER OUT THERE ON THE PART OF BOTH WOMEN AND MEN ABOUT THE OPPOSITE SEX.

SO WE NEED TO THINK OF WAYS TO BRING US BACK TOGETHER, TO BRIDGE THE GENDER DIVIDE, IF YOU WILL.

AND THAT'S PART OF WHAT MY BOOK IS AIMING TO DO.

>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU.

IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE.