>>> WILL THE FOURTH TIME BE THE CHARM FOR THE REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED REDISTRICTING COMMISSION?

♪♪ >>> JOINING US ON COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD THIS WEEK, ANNA STAVER, STATEHOUSE REPORTER FOR ""THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH.""

MIKE MILLER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST.

SAM GRESHAM, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST.

>>> REPUBLICANS WHO CONTROL THE OHIO REDISTRICTING COMMISSION IGNORED THE WORK OF PROFESSIONAL MAPMAKERS HIRED TO REDRAW STATE SENATE AND HOUSE DISTRICTS.

ALL THIS WHILE THE FUTURE OF OHIO'S PRIMARY FLOATS IN LIMBO.

SAM, YOU'VE SAID THAT THE COMMISSION IS BOTH UNDERMINING THE WILL OF THE OHIO VOTERS WHILE MARGINALIZING COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

IS THIS STILL THE CASE?

>> YES, IT IS.

IT'S CLEAR AS IT WAS BEFORE.

NOW THEY HAVE FOUR TIMES, WE HAD THREE.

IN BASEBALL GAMES, IF YOU HAVE THREE, YOU STRUCK OUT.

I WANT THE COURT TO INSTITUTE SOME FORM OF PROTEST.

I DON'T THINK YOU'RE GOING TO GET THEM TO DO ANYTHING UNTIL THEY HAVE TO PAY A PRICE.

WHETHER IT'S INDIVIDUAL PRICE, A COLLECTIVE PRICE.

SOME SORT OF FORCE HAS TO BE USED NOW.

>> MIKE, IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION IT SAYS THAT THE COURTS CANNOT IMPLEMENT A MAP THAT HASN'T BEEN VOTED ON BY THE COMMISSION.

WHAT POWER SHOULD THE COURT HAVE AT THIS POINT?

>> DEPENDS WHO YOU TALK TO.

YOU KNOW.

SOME WANT THE COURT TO DRAW THE DISTRICTS THEMSELVES, OTHERS DO NOT.

ALL OF THIS IS UP IN THE AIR.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

WHETHER THE FEDERAL SYSTEM GETS INVOLVED OR NOT.

THEY MAY WELL WHEN IT COMES TO REPRESENTATIONAL MAPS.

I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW THIS IS BREAKING, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

DEMOCRATS SOLID ONE WAY, REPUBLICANS SOLID THE OTHER WAY.

A FEW WEEKS AGO ON THIS PROGRAM, I INDICATED THAT I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.

AND I HAD NO IDEA IT WAS GOING TO BE THIS MUCH OF A PROBLEM.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT REALLY A STUNNING SURPRISE.

I WAS READING THE OTHER DAY WHERE THE SUPREME COURT, A CASE FROM PENNSYLVANIA, I THINK IT WAS PENNSYLVANIA, FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

WE ALL KNOW WHOEVER'S IN CONTROL, I DON'T CARE WHO THEY ARE, ARE GOING TO TRY TO DO THINGS TO BENEFIT THEIR PARTY, PERIOD.

AND IT'S BEEN THAT WAY MY ENTIRE LIFE, IT WILL BE THAT WAY 30 YEARS FROM NOW.

SO WHAT THEY DO, I DON'T KNOW.

YOU'VE GOT TWO DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTIES.

ONE WANTS ONE WAY, ONE WANTS THE OTHER, BOTH OF THEM POINT THE FINGERS AND SAY, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

>> MIKE, I'M GOING TO COME BACK TO YOU.

THIS IS A PROCESS THAT WAS VOTED ON BY VOTERS IN 2015.

IT'S THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN IT IN PLAY.

THE REPUBLICANS ON THE COMMISSION, EXCLUDING AUDITOR KEITH FABER, HAVE VOTED FOR MAPS THAT HAVE BEEN FOUND UNCONSTITUTIONAL, THE COURT SENDS IT BACK.

ARE REPUBLICANS ON THE COMMISSION PLAYING BY THOSE RULES?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW.

I'M NOT ON THE COMMISSION.

I LIKE TO GIVE EVERYBODY THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

BUT YOU CAN SAY THAT IF YOU WISH.

TO ME, THIS IDEA, EVERYBODY'S TRYING TO DO SOMETHING TERRIBLE, I WOULD DISAGREE WITH SAM, LET'S HOLD EVERYBODY IN CONTEMPT.

YEAH, TO ME IT'S A PROBLEM.

EVENTUALLY IN THE NOT-TOO-DISTANT FUTURE, IT WILL GET SATISFIED.

WANTING TO DRAW BLOOD AND ALL OF THIS, I DON'T KNOW.

YOU CAN SAY IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL.

THREE OF THE FOUR PEOPLE ON THE SUPREME COURT SAID IT'S FINE.

SO THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT BLACK AND WHITE BY ANY MEANS.

>> ANNA STAVER, WHILE ALL THIS IS GOING ON, WE HAVE AN OHIO PRIMARY TO THINK ABOUT.

WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF OHIO'S MAY 3rd PRIMARY?

>> IT MEANS A LITTLE BIT OF CHAOS IN THE PROCESS.

SECRETARY OF STATE JUST CAME OUT AND SAID, IF I DO DO ANYTHING BY THE END OF THE DAY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A BIFURCATED PRIMARY.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS ESSENTIALLY STATEWIDE CANDIDATES, CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS ON MAY 3rd, THEN THE STATE HOUSE AND SENATE MAPS PROBABLY AT SOME LATER DATE.

>> SAM, WE'RE GOING BACK AND FORTH.

THE COURT TO THE COMMISSION TO THE COURT TO THE COMMISSION.

IT CAN GET CONFUSING.

WHAT KIND OF EFFECT DO YOU THINK THIS HAS ON VOTERS?

>> OVER 70% OF THE VOTERS IN OHIO, TWICE, '15, 2015, 2018, VOTED MORE THAN 70%.

AND IN THE LAST ELECTION, ALL 88 COUNTIES PASSED IT.

I THINK IT'S A TOTAL DISREGARD FOR WHAT THE VOTERS SAY.

I THINK THERE'S A TOTAL DISREGARD.

YES, DEMOCRATS WOULD BE DOING THE SAME THING.

AND I WOULD SAY THE SENATE, THEY ARE WRONG, THEY NEED TO FOLLOW THE LAW.

THE ONE THING WE WERE CRITICIZED FOR WHEN WE PASSED THOSE TWO WAS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

WE THOUGHT WE COULD GET THEM TO WORK BY FOLLOWING THE LAW.

OBVIOUSLY THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

WE DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME IN THE NEGOTIATION.

ALL OF THOSE WHO FILED SUIT AGAINST EVERYBODY TO MAKE THEM MOVE FORWARD WITH THE MAP.

SO IT'S A DYNAMICS DIFFERENT.

ONE THING I'LL ASK.

THE PEOPLE WE NEGOTIATED WITH IN '15 AND '18 ARE NOT IN CONTROL OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY NOW.

>> YEAH, AND JUST A FEW SECONDS LEFT.

SO WHAT WE SAW AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS PROCESS, THIS FOURTH TIME AROUND, IS INDEPENDENT MAPMAKERS WERE BROUGHT IN.

WE SAW A LIVESTREAM.

THEN SORT OF AT THE LAST MINUTE THERE WAS A CHANGE OF HEART.

WHY DID REPUBLICANS GO WITH A DIFFERENT STRATEGY AT THE END?

>> WELL, TALKED ABOUT HAVING CONCERNS WITH THE ABILITIES OF THE MAPMAKERS TO GET DONE ON TIME.

THEN THEY HAD CONCERNS ABOUT COMPACTMENT AND DIVISION OF COMMUNITIES.

THAT'S THEIR ARGUMENT IN THE MAPS THAT WERE DRAWN BY THE INDEPENDENT MAPMAKERS.

TALKING TO DEMOCRATS, THEY DON'T BELIEVE A WORD COMING OUT OF HIS MOUTH.

SO I DON'T KNOW.

WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT THE COURT HAS TO SAY.

>> MIKE, LIKE YOU SAID, WE'RE SEEING THIS IN OTHER STATES.

SOME OF THEM DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED.

ALSO GOING TO COURT.

HERE IT'S REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR ACCOUNTABILITY ON BOTH SIDES OF AISLE WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTED OFFICIALS NOT BEING ABLE TO CREATE MAPS?

>> HONESTLY, I DON'T THINK THE POPULATION OF THIS STATE OR ANY OTHER STATE REALLY HAS A GREAT DEAL OF FAITH IN POLITICIANS.

WHATEVER STRIPE THEY ARE.

DEMOCRAT, REPUBLICAN, CONSERVATIVE, LIBERAL.

AND SOMETIMES THEY LOOK AT THIS AND THINK THEY HAVE GOOD REASON TO FEEL THAT WAY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>>> WHEN DEMOCRATIC GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATES DEBATED ON TUESDAY, IT WAS CLEAR THEY HAD A PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE BETWEEN THEM.

REPUBLICAN INCUMBENT MIKE DeWINE.

>> YOU KNOW, MIKE DeWINE AND SO MANY REPUBLICANS, THEY LIKE TO ACT LIKE THEY'RE ON THE SIDE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

WELL, LAW ENFORCEMENT SAID THIS WILL GET COPS KILLED, THIS WILL GET FIREFIGHTERS KILLED.

MIKE DeWINE HAS BASICALLY SAID IT'S OPEN SEASON ON COPS.

I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU HOW TO KEEP COMMUNITIES SAFE.

WHEN YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH MASS SHOOTINGS, IT'S AWFUL.

YOU COMFORT THE FAMILIES NEXT TIME.

>> GOVERNOR DeWINE SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE, PEOPLE IN DAYTON SHOUTING IN FRUSTRATION, DO SOMETHING.

GOVERNOR DeWINE SAID HE WOULD INDEED DO SOMETHING TO DEAL WITH GUN VIOLENCE AND GUN SAFETY RULES.

NEVER AM MY WORST NIGHTMARE DID I THINK THAT THE THING HE WAS GOING TO DO WAS TO ACTUALLY MAKE IT WORSE.

>> MIKE MILLER, THIS IS PROBABLY AS GOOD OF AN EXPLANATION AS ANY FOR WHY GOVERNOR DeWINE DECIDED AGAINST THE REPUBLICAN GUBERNATORIAL DEBATE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW -- THESE ARE -- OPEN SEASON ON POLICE, ALL THIS, THIS IS JUST POLITICAL MINDSET.

I HAPPEN TO AGREE THAT THE GUNS LEGISLATION PASSED BY REPUBLICANS IS BAD.

I DON'T LIKE IT.

I'VE NEVER LIKED IT.

I DON'T EVEN LIKE CONCEALED CARRY, PERIOD, MUCH LESS CONCEALED CARRY WITHOUT ANY TRAINING, THAT IS ABSURD.

BUT YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THEY'RE ACTING LIKE 95% OF THE COUNTRY THINK THAT WAY.

THEY DON'T.

PROBABLY A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE INTERPRET THE SECOND AMENDMENT SO BROADLY THAT THIS IS A NORMAL THEN, IT SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE BEEN THERE.

I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY.

I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE TO HAVE THESE LIBERAL GUN LAWS IN OHIO.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A DICTATOR.

PEOPLE THINK DIFFERENT WAYS.

I'M SURE THAT GOVERNOR DeWINE, I THINK ANYBODY WOULD SAY, IF HE KNEW, IF WE ALL KNEW, THAT THIS WAS GOING TO LEAD TO 1,000 MORE HOMICIDES A YEAR, 1,000 MORE KILLINGS, HE COULDN'T SIGN IT.

I DON'T THINK REPUBLICANS, I HOPE, WOULDN'T PASS IT.

BUT WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE SECOND AMENDMENT, FEELINGS ON ONE SIDE ARE VERY SIMILAR TO ABORTION, TO THE DEATH PENALTY -- I MEAN, THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

TO ME, IT WOULD JUST BE, YOU KNOW, DeWINE'S A TERRIBLE MAN, DOES ALL THIS THING.

JUST IGNORE THAT, THEY DON'T TALK LIKE HE'S REALLY A FINE MAN BUT I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

IT DOESN'T GO THAT WAY.

JUST, EVERYTHING HE DOES IS BAD.

YOU KNOW.

TO ME, I THINK WE'RE BETTER OFF, ALTHOUGH I DON'T SEE MUCH DEBATE REASONABLY HELD.

>> SAM GRESHAM, DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY, AND DO YOU THINK THIS IS A STRATEGY THAT CAN HELP A DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE WIN?

>> NO, I DON'T, AND I AGREE WITH MIKE.

GOVERNOR DeWINE IS A DECENT HUMAN BEING.

PHILOSOPHICALLY AND POLICY-WISE, I DISAGREE WITH HIM ON THINGS.

AND I THINK DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES ARE GOING AT THE WRONG APPROACH.

NOT THE APPROACH, IN MY MIND.

ON HOUSE BILL 6.

IF I WERE A STRATEGIST FOR THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE, IT WOULD BE THE MOST RECENTLY PASSED CONCEALED CARRY LAW.

THEN IT WOULD BE THE PUBLIC TREATMENT OF THE GOVERNOR AND GOVERNMENTAL INSTITUTIONS DURING THE COVID PERIOD.

AND THEN I WOULD GO FOR HOUSE BILL 6.

SCANDAL, SCANDAL, SCANDAL, SCANDAL.

I LISTENED TO THE DEBATE.

THEY TOUCHED ON IT, BUT THEY DIDN'T REALLY FOCUS ON THESE THINGS THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THE SCANDAL.

I MEAN, COME ON, NOW.

HOW COULD YOU NOT DO THAT AS A PART OF YOUR CAMPAIGN?

>> ANNA STAVER, THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG SPOTLIGHTS FOR BOTH DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

WHAT OTHER TOPICS DID THEY HIT DURING THE DEBATE, AND DOES IT SEEM LIKE IT'S GAINING TRACTION AMONG VOTERS?

>> I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF CAMARADERIE AND AGREEMENT ON COMMON ENEMY, BUT THEY ACTUALLY SPLIT A LITTLE ON ABORTION.

IF YOU LOOK AT JOHN CRANIALLY, HE USED TO BE MORE OF A PRO-LIFE POSITION, BUT HE CHANGED IN RECENT YEARS.

THEN KIND OF CAME UP FOR IT A LITTLE BIT SAYING, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT, THIS IS THE YEAR WHERE ROE V. WADE MAY BE OVERTURNED, DO WE WANT SOMEBODY WHO'S BEEN A LITTLE WISHY-WASHY ON THIS ISSUE?

HE SAID ABOUT HIS WIFE, THEIR FAMILY PLANNING POSITIONS, HE CAME TO SEE PERSPECTIVE ON THIS ISSUE.

IT'S FAIR TO SEE WHERE THEY MIGHT DIFFER POLICY-WISE.

>> MIKE, GOVERNOR DeWINE DID NOT AGREE TO A DEBATE.

HE IS BEING CHALLENGED BY SEVERAL REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, CHALLENGING HIM ON THE FAR RIGHT.

DO YOU THINK DeWINE IS STILL THE FRONT-RUNNER IN THAT RACE?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY DOUBT ABOUT IT.

I THINK HE'LL RUN EASILY IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT HIS CHANCES IN THE GENERAL ELECTION, THEN?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW.

YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE NUMBERS GOING THROUGH REDISTRICTING, IT SEEMS TO ME.

THE LAST TWO YEARS, I THINK THIS IS RIGHT.

SOMETHING LIKE 54-46 STATEWIDE REPUBLICAN.

I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO CHANGE MUCH.

I MAY BE WRONG FOR THE REASONS THAT SAM POINTS OUT.

I AGREE, THOSE ARE THE REPUBLICANS' WEAK POINTS, THE THING WITH HOUSEHOLDER AND SO ON.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO CHANGE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER A GREAT DEAL, ANY MINDS.

>>> GOING FROM THE GUBERNATORIAL DEBATE TO THE REPUBLICAN U.S. SENATE DEBATE WHERE MOST OF THE SEVEN CANDIDATES REPEATEDLY TOUTED THEIR AFFINITY FOR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WHO HAS YET TO ENDORSE IN THIS RACE.

WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE ENDORSEMENT OF GEORGIA REPRESENTATIVE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, WHO WAS A NOTED SPEAKER AT A RECENT WHITE NATIONALIST EVENT AND WHO CALLED THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE A THUG, SENATE CANDIDATE J.D.

VANCE DID A QUICK PIVOT TO HIS SUPPORT FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

>> MARJORIE, SHE'S A FRIEND OF MINE, SHE'S A PATRIOT.

I DON'T THINK IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE ALL THESE NEGATIVE ATTACK ADS AGAINST ME SAY I DON'T LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

OF COURSE I DID SAY SOME NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP SIX YEARS AGO.

BUT IF I WAS ANTI-TRUMP, THIS CONGRESS WOULD NOT BE BEHIND ME, AND I PROUD TO HAVE HER SUPPORT.

>> ANNA STAVER, COLUMNIST JASON WILLIAMS OF "THE CINCINNATI INQUIRER" WROTE THAT A TRUMP ENDORSEMENT CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH FOR OHIO VOTERS, PAYING ATTENTION TO THE PRIMARY RACE, SAYING THAT AN ENDORSEMENT WOULD, AS HE PUT IT, HOPEFULLY TRIGGER A CANDIDATE OR TWO TO DROP OUT OF THE RACE.

HOW FOCUSED ARE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS ON THE RACE WITH SO MANY CANDIDATES?

>> YEAH, THERE ARE SEVEN CANDIDATES TOTAL IF YOU'RE COUNTING, WHICH IS A LOT OF PEOPLE TO KEEP TRACK OF.

SOME LIKE MR. VANCE ARE POLLING HIGHER THAN OTHERS.

I THINK THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT WE SAW THE DEBATE STAGE WITH EVERYONE ELSE.

BUT I THINK NO ONE HAS HAD A CLEAR, LIKE SOLID LEAD IN ANY OF THE POLLING THAT I'VE SEEN.

AND THERE'S STILL A LARGE NUMBER OF UNDECIDED VOTERS, EVEN IN SOME OF THE MORE RECENT.

I WONDER IF THEY'RE WAITING TO SEE AN ENDORSEMENT IN THIS RACE.

WE HEAR THAT GIBBONS HAS BEEN DOWN TO SEE HIM, VANCE HAS BEEN COURTING HIS -- ONE OF THE SONS.

I THINK IT COULD REALLY CLEAR THE FIELD TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.

BUT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW ONE MONTH TO GO.

EARLY VOTING STARTS ON TUESDAY.

IF HE'S GOING TO MAKE A MOVE, HE HAS TO DO IT SOON.

>> MIKE MILLER, DO YOU THINK HE'S GOING TO MAKE THAT MOVE?

>> I THINK I AGREE WITH WHAT MATT -- AGAIN, I DIDN'T WATCH THE DEBATE.

WHAT I READ ABOUT IT, MATT DOLAN HAD THE BEST LINE WHEN HE SAID, THE OTHER SIX PEOPLE THERE ARE TRYING TO GET THE VOTE OF ONE MAN WHO DOESN'T LIVE IN THIS STATE, DOESN'T VOTE HERE.

I THINK THAT'S TRUE.

BUT YOU KNOW, YOU GO BACK TO THE LAST ELECTION, NOVEMBER OF 2020.

MY WIFE AND I DO A LOT OF DRIVING AROUND, WITH COVID, GET THE HECK OUT OF THE HOUSE.

COLUMBUS, NOTHING BUT BIDEN SIGNS.

YOU GOT IN THE COUNTRY, NOTHING BUT TRUMP SIGNS.

AGAIN, THAT'S THE DICHOTOMY OF HOW PEOPLE FEEL.

PEOPLE ARE SAYING, TRUMP WON OHIO BY 8%, SO REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK, I WANT HIS VOTE, I WANT TO WIN THE ELECTION.

IT'S TOO BAD.

THE OTHER THINGS, TALKING ABOUT THE GUNS, ABORTION -- I REMEMBER, SAM WILL REMEMBER THIS ANNA'S TOO YOUNG.

THE LAST MINUTE WHEN TONY CELEBRATES -- A VERY GOOD FRIEND OF MINE, RAN FOR GOVERNOR, SUDDENLY IT SWITCHED AND BECAME, YOU KNOW -- ON THE ABORTION ISSUE.

AND MORE RECENTLY I REMEMBER TED STRICKLAND GETTING DOWN ON THE GUN, SECOND AMENDMENT, BECAME A PRO-GUN -- THAT'S JUST POLITICS.

PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO, I DON'T THINK -- VERY FEW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO STICK TO REALLY WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

I LOOK AT CONGRESS.

THERE'S NOT MANY JOE MANCHINS AROUND OR LIZ CHENEY WHO ARE GOING TO DO WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH IT, THEY WILL DO WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT.

THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE REPUBLICAN LINE, THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE DEMOCRAT LINE, THEY DO WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS RIGHT.

I DON'T SEE MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE AROUND.

>> SAM, AS MENTIONED BEFORE, MOST OF THE CANDIDATES FIGHTING FOR THAT TRUMP ENDORSEMENT, THIS IS A STATE WHERE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WON BY 8 PERCENTAGE POINTS BOTH TIMES.

IS IT A CLEAR PATH TO SUCCESS IF THEY ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS TRUMP CANDIDATES?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I ALWAYS WONDER ABOUT THAT.

OUR CURRENT DEMOCRATIC SENATOR, HE AND TRUMP WERE CHOSE.

IT IS NO GUARANTEE.

I THINK TRUMP DECIDING HIS LANE, I THINK AS IN 2000 -- MOVE FORWARD.

PARTICULARLY WHEN WE GET TO 2024.

I THINK IT WILL BE A GREAT DEAL.

IN FACT, I'LL PREDICT HE WILL NOT RUN FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

IF HE DOES RUN IN A PRIMARY, HE WILL LOSE.

NOW YOU HAVE TO GO AGAINST THE TREND OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

I THINK HIS VALUE IS OVERBLOWN.

I THINK PEOPLE SEE TOO MUCH IN IT THAT'S NOT THERE.

I WANT YOU TO BE REMINDED OF THE ENDORSEMENT, PEOPLE THAT TRUMP ENDORSE, THEY LOST LARGE.

EXCEPT FOR THAT GUY IN VIRGINIA.

THE MAJORITY OF HIS CANDIDATES HAVE LOST.

SO I DON'T SEE THE VALUE IN IT.

A LIBERAL, YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT, ALL OF THAT.

I'M TRYING TO HAVE AN HONEST ASSESSMENT OF HIS POLITICAL VALUE.

AND I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SAY ONE MORE THING.

BY THE TIME WE GET THROUGH 2024, HE'S GOING TO BE INDICTED.

INDICTED PEOPLE CANNOT RUN FOR ELECTION.

I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT.

>> I WANT TO GET ANNA STAVER IN HERE.

THIS HAS BEEN A LONG CAMPAIGN.

SOME OF THESE CANDIDATES HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING A LONG TIME.

DO ANY SEEM TO BE STANDING OUT, GETTING ANY TRACTION AMONG VOTERS?

>> THE ONLY ONE THAT'S REALLY SEEN A RISE IN RECENT WEEKS HAS BEEN MIKE GIBBONS.

HE KIND OF WENT FROM LOW IN THE POLLS TO HIGH.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU GUYS BUT ANY TIME I TURN ON THE TELEVISION, I SEE AN AD FOR HIM.

I THINK THOSE ADS PAID OFF.

FOR A WHILE I THINK HEAD OF THE ONLY CANDIDATE UP.

HE REALLY GOT HIS NAME OUT THERE.

>>> MOVING ON TO OUR LAST TOPIC, THE OHIO SUPREME COURT IN JANUARY UPHELD A LOWER COURT RULING THAT REDUCED BAIL FOR A HAMILTON COUNTY MAN CHARGED IN A 2020 SHOOTING DEATH.

TOUGH ON CRIME REPUBLICANS HAVE RESPONDED WITH A PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, TO MAKE IT EASIER TO KEEP PEOPLE BEHIND BARS UNTIL TRIAL OR PLEA DEALS.

THEY SAY THE GOAL IS TO MAKE OHIO SAFE.

SAM GRESHAM, THE CHIEF PROPONENTS, OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL DAVE YOST, HAMILTON COUNTY PROSECUTOR JOE DETERS, SAID IT'S A MYTH INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE SITTING IN JAIL AWAITING THEIR DAY IN COURT.

OHIO DEFENDER TIM YOUNG SAID, INSTEAD SAFETY CONCERNS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED BY IMPOSING NONFINANCIAL CONDITIONS SUCH AS TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK, SAM?

>> I HAPPEN TO SEE THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN.

THERE ARE PEOPLE I KNOW PERSONALLY WHO ARE IN JAIL AND/OR IN PRISON WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT.

YOU HAVE TO BE JUDICIOUS ON THIS.

YOU CAN'T LET CRAZY PEOPLE OUT, YOU CAN'T JUST LET ANYBODY OUT.

BUT THE BAIL SHOULD NOT BE -- FINANCIAL BAIL SHOULD NOT BE THE ONLY THING THAT YOU HAVE ON THESE PEOPLE.

THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE JUST DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT.

WHEN THEY GET TO CORD, A LOT OF THEM GET INJURED OR HURT IN PRISON.

>> MIKE MILLER, FORMER FRANKLIN COUNTY PROSECUTOR, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS LATEST DISCUSSION ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AND BAIL REFORM?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK A GREAT DEAL OF IT.

MY EXPERIENCE IS, 50 YEARS NOW, THIS IS -- I WAS IN THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE, PROSECUTOR FOR 17 YEARS.

I KNEW MOST OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS, WE GOT ALONG, SO FORTH.

I DO NOT REMEMBER ONE SINGLE TIME WHERE ANYBODY CAME TO ME AND SAID, MIKE, THIS KID'S IN JAIL, HE CAN'T MAKE BOND, CAN'T WE GO ON SOMETHING LESS?

IF I SAID YES, THE JUDGE WOULD GO ALONG WITH IT, BOTH SIDES AGREE.

I DON'T REMEMBER ANYBODY COMING TO ME.

MAYBE THAT'S NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE.

BUT WHAT SAM SAYS I THINK IS SO IMPORTANT.

PEOPLE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH NONVIOLENT OFFENSES AND HAVE NO RECORD, I DON'T CARE IF YOU MAKE IT A LAW THAT THEY MUST RECEIVE A RECOGNIZANCE BOND.

I CAN ACCEPT THAT.

THESE VIOLENT PEOPLE THAT GO OUT, RAPES AND MURDERS, LONG BACKGROUNDS, TO ME IT'S AN ABSOLUTE JOKE TO SAY, WELL, PROTECTING THE PUBLIC SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF BAIL, JUST LET THE FIRST GUY OUT AND KILL SOMEBODY, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE EVERYTHING FLIP TO THE OTHER SIDE.

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY DO SOMETHING, HOW COULD YOU, JUDGE, LET SOMEBODY OUT?

IT'S RIDICULOUS.

BUT THERE IS A WAY IN OHIO NOW THAT'S BEEN THERE FOR SOME TIME WHERE YOU CAN JUST GIVE A PERSON NO BOND.

IT'S A BIT COMPLICATED.

PEOPLE HAVE TO APPEAR AND TESTIFY AND SO FORTH.

BUT I THINK IT'S 2937.222.

I THINK PUBLIC SAFETY SHOULD BE NUMBER ONE.

>> MIKE, LET ME ASK YOU THIS, THEN.

IF IT COMES DOWN BETWEEN A LEGISLATIVE CHANGE, A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE, OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE UP TO THE DISCRETION OF PROSECUTORS, DEFENDANTS, AND JUDGES?

>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY SHOULD BE UP TO PROSECUTORS, IT OUGHT TO BE UP TO JUDGES.

AS I SAY, I UNDERSTAND, AND I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS STATE THAT ARE HELD ON THE CHARGES THAT AREN'T VERY SERIOUS AND ARE HELD BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET OUT ON BOND.

I'D BE A FOOL IF I SAID THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IN ORDER TO -- I ASSUME THE JUDGES ARE SITTING BY, THEY COULD BE WRONG.

BUT I'M NOT OPPOSED TO LETTING ALL THE PEOPLE OUT, 100% OF THEM, AWAITING TRIAL, AS LONG AS IT'S NONVIOLENT, WITHOUT ANY PAST RECORD.

I THINK THAT'S FINE.

AND THAT WILL TAKE CARE OF THESE PROBLEMS THAT SAM POINTS OUT, PEOPLE COULD GET -- THAT DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY.

VIOLENCE OFFENSES, I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER MATTER.

>> ANNA STAVER, FOR YEARS WE'VE SEEN THE LEGISLATURE, REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, MOVING TOWARDS MORE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, MOVING TOWARDS BAIL REFORM.

SO DOES THIS LATEST ACTION FROM ATTORNEY GENERAL DAVID YOST, FROM COUNTY PROSECUTORS, DOES THAT GO THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION THAN WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM THE LEGISLATURE?

>> A LITTLE BIT.

EVEN CONSERVATIVE GROUPS LIKE THE BUCKEYE INSTITUTE, ASPL OHIO, THESE TRADITIONALLY REPUBLICAN INSTITUTIONS, COME OUT IN FAVOR OF BAIL REFORM.

HAWKEYE INSTITUTE CAME OUT IN OPPOSITION TO WHAT DAVE YOST IS PROPOSING.

THEY'RE SAYING THERE'S A MULTITUDE OF TOOLS THAT JUDGES HAVE.

THEY CAN USE ANKLE MONITORING, OTHER KINDS -- RESTRICTIONS, CERTAIN TYPES OF REGULAR CHECK-INS, THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO TO MONITOR PEOPLE ON BAIL AND ENSURE THAT THEY ARE NOT ACTING INAPPROPRIATELY.

BUT IT IS A LARGER, MORE COMPLICATED CONVERSATION.

AND I AGREE, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO SOMEBODY ACCUSED OF A VIOLENT CRIME.

>> A LARGER, COMPLICATED DISCUSSION.

A DISCUSSION WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO CONTINUE MOVE HAVING FOR A WHILE NOW.

>>> IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON TO OUR "OFF THE RECORD" PARTING SHOTS.

SAM GRESHAM, YOU FIRST.

>> I HOPE WE FIND A WAY TO MOVE FORWARD ON THIS COURT CASE THAT I'M INVOLVED WITH.

IT IS THE -- THE PRECIPICE OF THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO FIND SOME WAY TO DRAW LINES THAT ARE EQUITABLE.

>> MIKE MILLER?

>> WELL, THIS ISN'T POLITICAL, BUT I THINK THAT A FEW DAYS, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL OPENS.

TO ME, IT'S ALMOST EVERY YEAR ABOUT THIS TIME, IT'S LIKE A REBIRTH.

I HAVE GREAT HOPES MY TEAM WILL WIN, ALTHOUGH I KNOW THEY WON'T.

I'M JUST GRATEFUL EVERY SPRING, WE CAN START FRESH.

>> ANNA STAVER?

>> I HAVE A LITTLE PSA FOR FOLKS.

IF YOU ARE NOT REGISTERED TO VOTE, MONDAY IS THE DEADLINE FOR THE PRIMARY.

EARLY VOTING AS WELL.

SO NO MATTER WHAT, I BELIEVE RULES ARE MADE BY THE PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP SO YOU WHO VOTE IN YOUR PRIMARIES.

>> MY FINAL COMMENT IS THAT WE ARE IN LIMBO, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE REDISTRICTING AND THE PRIMARIES.

THAT'S IT FOR "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

PLEASE CHECK US OUT ONLINE, ON FACEBOOK.

YOU CAN CONNECT AT WOSU.ORG/COTR.

WATCH THE SHOWS THERE.

I'M ANDY CHOW.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.