>>> AND NEXT, IT IS THE ONE THING THAT WE PRACTICALLY NEVER LEAVE HOME WITHOUT, BUT COULD TO SMART PHONES BE SPYING ON US.

AND PULITZER PRIZE WINNING WRITER RONAN FARROW JOINS MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO DISCUSS HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY "SURVEILLANCE" AND THE FRIGHTENING WORLD OF SPYWARE.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> THIS MAY SEEM BASIC, BUT TAKE US TO THE BEGINNING, AND WHAT IS SPYWARE AND HOW DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF IT?

>> THE MOST MODERN FORMS OF SPYWARE THAT WE MUST BE CONCERNED ABOUT CAN HIJACK THE PHONE UNDETECT BLI AND TURN ON THE LISTENING DEVICE AND TURN ON THE CAMERA, AND DISGORGE ALL OF YOUR PERSONAL CONTENT AND SEND IT REMOTELY TO WHOEVER IS OPERATING THE TECHNOLOGY.

SO THE CORE THING TO NOTE IS THAT IT HAS BEEN USED FOR A LONG TIME AS A TOOL OF OPPRESSION UNDER DICTATORSHIPS AND AUTOCRACIES AND WE SEE IT SHOWING UP UNDER MURDERED DISSIDENTS AND JOURNALISTS AND HUNDREDS OF ACTIVISTS AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRACKING IN RECENT YEARS OF REPORTING IS THAT IN ONE WESTERN DEMOCRACY AFTER ANOTHER, AND COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PROTECTIONS AGAINST THESE ENTRUGSS INTRUSIONS IN THEIR BODIES OF LAWS IS THAT THESE S KAND CANDALS ARE HAPPENING OVER AND OVER.

WE HAVE SEEN NIT POLAND AND SPAIN, AND IN THIS DOCUMENTARY "SURVEILLED" IS WHERE WE SEE SOCIETY MEMBERS BEING HACKED IN THIS WAY.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT, MICHEL, FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE BEING SURVEILLED IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND INCLUDING HIGH-TECH WAYS AND SOMEBODY TRACKING MY GPS DATA, IT IS NOT JUST INFORMATION GATHERING, BUT IT IS INTIMIDATION, AND IT IS SHRINKING THE SPACE OF EXPRESS OF ALL KIND, AND SMIGT THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

THE FILM IS SHOWING THAT NOT JUST OPPOSITION ACTIVISTS AND POLITICIAN, BUT PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT UP IN THIS ALL OF THE TIME.

>> WE HAVE TO GET VERY BASIC HERE, BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY, LOOK, IF YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, WHAT DO YOU CARE IF PEOPLE ARE FOLLOWING YOU AROUND OR LISTENING TO YOUR CONVERSATION, AND I FEEL THAT YOU NEED TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHY THIS MATTERS.

>> THE REASON TO CARE ABOUT THIS ARE TWO-FOLD, AND YOU COULD HAVE THE POSTURE THAT DESCRIBED, MICHEL, I AM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, AND NOBODY WANTS MY DATA, AND INTUITIVELY THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT WHEN WE SEE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THE ORWELLIAN DRAGNETS HAPPEN, AND PEOPLE SAY, IT COULD NOT HAPPEN HERE IN DEMOCRACIES IS THAT INNOCENT BYSTANDERS AND TOTALLY APOLITICAL PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT UP IN THE DRAGNETS.

>> WHY SHOULD PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD CARE ABOUT THE HACKING THAT YOU ARE DOCUMENTING HERE IN CATALONIA?

>> THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST CASES WHERE THERE IS A LARGE AND VAST AFFECTED NUMBER OF PEOPLE, AND FROM A LARGE AND VAST NUMBER OF CATEGORIES OF SOCIETY.

SO WE'VE HAD THE PARLIAMENT OF CATALONIA TARGET AND THE GOVERNMENT TARGETED AND LAWYERS TARGETED AND WE'VE HAD CIVIL LEADERS OF CULTURAL ORGANIZATIONS OF CATALONIA TARGETED.

>> THIS IS NOT SOME FUTURE ORWELLIAN SCENARIO, AND IT HAPPENED HERE, AND IT IS HAPPENING HERE.

>> IT IS HAPPENING HERE.

> >> AND TO GET AT THE OTHER PART OF WHY PEOPLE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THIS, WHETHER YOU WIND UP ON A LIST OR NOT, YOU HAVE TO BE INVESTED IN HOW THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY SHRINKS THE SPACE FOR ALL FORMS OF DISSENT AND OPPOSITION.

WE HAVE SEEN EXTREME CASES OF THAT, MICHEL, LIKE IN THE CASE OF THE JOURNALIST JAMAL KHASHOGGI WITH THE ALLEGATION THAT PEGASUS, ONE OF THE POWERFUL SPYWARE SHOWED UP IN RP ASSOCIATES OF HIS, AND THEY DENY IT, BUT THAT IS THE CASE.

AND THAT IS THE PATTERN, THAT YOU HAVE HIM COMMUNICATING DISSENT ABOUT THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT, AND HE WOUND UP DEAD.

THAT IS AN EXTREME CASE, BUT IN ALL OF THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY AT THEIR FINGERPRINTS, AND THE U. S. GOVERNMENT HAS PURCHASED THIS TECHNOLOGY, AND WE HAVE TO BE CONCERNED THAT PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS THAT EXPRESS DISSENT CAN BE A FORM OF RETALIATION.

>> ONE OF THE PEOPLE INTERVIEWED TOLD YOU THAT THE SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND BALANCES HAVE COME TO TELL YOU THAT THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED IN THE WEST HAVE UNRAVELED BEFORE OUR EYES.

GOING TO THE REPORTING IN SPAIN, WHERE A LOT OF THE REPORTING IN THE DOCUMENTARY IS FROM, WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> IN SPAIN, WHERE PEOPLE REALLY DID SAY, IT DID NOT HAPPEN HERE.

YOU HAD A PEACEFUL ELECTION IN CATALONIA, WHICH IS NEAR THE CAPITAL OF BARCELONA, AND THEY WANTED TO SEPARATE TO BECOME AN INDEPENDENT STATE, AND WHATEVER YOUR VIEWS, THESE ARE PEACEFUL POLITICIANS AND CIVIL SOCIETY MEMBER, AND WHAT WE FOUND THERE, AND I FOLLOWED THE WORK OF A WATCHDOG GROUP CALLED CITIZEN LAB, THERE IS ONE OF THE LARGEST CLUSTERS OF HACKING VICTIMS IN THE WORLD.

JUST ONE POLITICIAN AFTER ANOTHER, AND THESE ARE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT MEMBERS IN SOME CASES, AND WE SHOW IN THE FILM, THE CASES OF THE POLITICIANS TESTING THEIR PHONES AND FINDING OUT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN HACKED.

[SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE] >> WHEN DOES IT LOOK LIKE YOU WERE INFECTED?

>> I WILL HAVE TO CHECK THE DATE, BUT AROUND THAT DAY, I WAS APPOINTED MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL KNOWING THAT YOU MAY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED IN THIS WAY?

>> WELL, I FEEL SURPRISED AND ANGRY AT THE SAME TIME.

>> THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT SENSITIVE CONVERSATIONS HAVE BEEN DISGORGED OR IF THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT WILL RETALIATE AGAINST THEM, AND IN THE U. S. , WE HAVE BEEN FLIRTING WITH THE TECHNOLOGY AND PARTIES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE HAVE PURCHASED THE TECH AND EXPLORED USING IT, AND COME CLOSE TO IT UNDER FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND THE FBI DID PURCHASE PEGASUS, ONE OF THE TYPES OF TECHNOLOGY, AND THEY HAVE SAID THEY HAVE DONE MORE THAN TESTING, BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN DEPLOYED OPERATIONALLY YET, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME EFFORTS IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO LIMIT THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO PURCHASE SPYWARE, THEY HAVE GONE AHEAD TO PURCHASE MORE.

UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS PURCHASED A SOFTWARE CALLED GRAPHITE BUILT BY PARAGON, AND THAT CONTRACT IS BEING REVIEWED, BUT YOU WILL HAVE A NEW ADMINISTRATION COMING INTO HAVE THIS AT ITS FINGERPRINTS WHERE THEY HAVE SAID THEY WILL GO AFTER JOURNALISTS AND YOU CAN SEE WHY PRIVATE RIGHTS ADVOCATES AND DEMOCRACY RIGHTS ADVOCATES ARE FEARFUL FOR THIS TO HAPPEN IN PLACE WHERE IS PEOPLE DID NOT EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN.

>> ONE OF THE INFAMOUS COMPANIES IN THIS FIELD IS THE NSO GROUP KNOWN FOR PEGASUS, THEIR SOFTWARE.

YOU WERE ACTUALLY INVITED INSIDE OF THEIR HEADQUARTERS IN TEL AVIV IN 2022, AND WHAT DID THEY SAY ABOUT WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT ARE THE CAPABILITIES OF WHAT THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO?

>> THE WHOLE FRAMEWORK OF THE DEBATE AROUND THIS TECHNOLOGY IS WHAT WE SEE ALL OF THE TIME IN TERMS OF THE POWERFUL INTRUSIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT TOOL, AND THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THEORETICALLY THAT IT CAN BE A GOOD THING FOR THE INVESTMENT, AND I TALKED TO LAW OFFICIALS FROM WESTERN DEMOCRACIES THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT PEGASUS, AND ALSO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS SAYING THAT WE WOULD LOVE TO COMPLETELY OPEN UP ANYONE'S PHONE ANY TIME WE WANT, AND THEY SAY THEY USE IT TO TARGET TERRORIST, AND THIS IS THE KIND OF THE SHOW THAT IS PUT ON BY ADVOCATES OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, AND THIS IS WHAT I GET IN THE FILM WHEN I GO INTO THE NSOs OFFICES, AND LOOK, WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE THIS TECHNOLOGY TO HELP THE GOOD GUYS IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND THEN I INTERVIEW ON THE BACKGROUND AND ON SHADOW, WHISTLE- BLOWERS WHO HAVE LEFT THAT FIRM BECAUSE OF THE ETHICAL OBJECTIONS, AND WHAT THEY ARE POINTING OUT IS THAT THE BUSINESS MODEL OF THE TOP MAKERS OF THIS IS SAYING THAT THEY ARE MAKING IT WITH AT LEAST SOME LIMITATIONS GET A REALLY LOW FEE, AND THE BREAD AND THE BUTTER OF THE BUSINESS, THE GIANT FEES COME FROM PLACES LIKE SAUDI ARABIA WHERE THE SPYWARE MAKERS KNOW THAT CLIENT IS GOING TO BE USING IT TO SQUASH DISSENT, AND WHAT THE SPYWARE MAKERS THEMSELVES, AND THE TOP PERSON SAYS IT IS JUST NOT THEIR FAULT, AND THERE IS NO GUIDELINES IN THE GENEVA CONVENTION THAT CAN REALLY HARM DEMOCRACIES.

>> AND SO THE BASIS OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, AND DO THEY MAINTAIN ANY CONTROL WHO THEY SELL TO?

>> AND THE NSO GROUP, THE SPY GROUPS, MAKE THE CLAIM THAT THEIR ACTIVITIES ARE TIGHTLY CONTROLLED BY THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES AND THE FACT THAT THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT IS FLOURISHING OUT OF TEL AVIV SPECIFICALLY IS NOT AN ACCIDENT, MICHEL.

THIS IS A HIGHLY INNOVATIVE TECH SETTING IN GENERAL WITH A REALLY STRONG POOL OF TALENT, BUT IT IS ALSO SPECIFICALLY A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE COME OUT OF MANDATORY MILITARY SERVICE, AND THEY COME OUT OF THE INTELLIGENCE UNITS IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY, AND THEY HAVE A SKILLSET EARLY IN THE CAREER THAT THEY SERVE THAT THEY APPLY STARTING THE COMPANIES WORKING FOR THESE COMPANIES, AND THAT IS WHY YOU WILL HAVE ISRAEL AT THE FOREFRONT OF THIS PRIVATE TECH, AND CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND THE PRIVATE SPYWARE MAKE, AND THE NSO GROUP HAS BEEN REPORTED TO DEPLOYING THE TECHNOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IN THE CURRENT CONFLICT IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES TO TRY TO FIND HOSTAGES.

AND BY THE WAY, ON THE OTHER HAND, WE TALKED TO PALESTINIAN POLITICIANS IN THIS FILM WHO SAY, LOOK, IT IS NOT JUST IN THIS CURRENT CONFLICT, AND FOR YEARS, ISRAEL HAS BEEN USING PALESTINIAN POPULATION AS A LAB THAT THEY SURVEIL ACTIVISTS IN THAT SPACE.

>> SO, LET'S GO BACK TO THE UNITED STATES, AND I WANTED TO MENTION THAT THERE IS BOTH THE DOCUMENTARY AND THERE'S ALSO A PIECE THAT YOU PUBLISHED IN "THE NEW YORKER. "

AND IN "THE NEW YORKER" YOU DETAILED HOW I. C. E. ACQUIRED PARAGON SPY TECHNOLOGY UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WHERE IT COULD BE USED MORE AGGRESSIVELY IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND YOU SPOKE TO THE ADMINISTRATOR WHO DEFENDED LEGITIMATE NATIONAL SECURITY USES OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, BUT LET'S --WE RA --WE ARE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AWAY FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION RETURNING TO OFFICE, AND THEY EXPECT TO HAVE A VERY AGGRESSIVE DEPORTATION POLICY, AND HOW MIGHT THIS TECHNOLOGY BE USED IN THE SERVICE OF THAT?

>> WELL, THIS IS WHAT PRIVACY LAW ADVOCATES ARE SO FRIGHTENED ABOUT.

YOU HAVE FIRST OF ALL A LEGAL FRAMEWORK FOR PRIVACY PROTECTIONS AND LIMITING THIS SPYWARE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS VERY POROUS, MICHEL.

I MEAN, AFTER SOME OF MY REPORTING THE BIDEN WHITE HOUSE ANNOUNCED IN SOME OF THE STORIES THAT I DID THAT THEY WOULD LOOK INTO SOME OF THE SPYWARE THAT WAS USED ABUSIVELY, BUT THEY PURCHASED MORE, AND THAT MEANS MORE OFFICES CAN USE IT, AND LOWER THRESHOLD AND LESS EXAMINATION OF WHEN IT IS USE AND NO CLEAR STANDARDS OF LAID OUT OF HOW AND WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CAN USE THIS.

AND THEN, YOU HAVE THIS INCOMING ADMINISTRATION WHERE EVERY SINGLE PRIVACY LAWYER SAID, NOT ONLY CAN THEY EXPLOIT ALL OF THE HOLES IN THE EXISTING FRAMEWORK, THEY ARE NOT EVEN SURE THAT THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION WILL CARE ABOUT THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK.

YOU REALLY DO HAVE INCOMING OFFICIALS, ADMINISTRATION MEMBERS WHO HAVE SAID THAT THEY DISREGARD THE LAW, THAT THEY VIEW THE EXECUTIVE AS HAVING ABSOLUTE POWER.

IF WE HAVE A COMBINATION OF A DISREGARD FOR ANY GUARDRAILS, AND THIS TECHNOLOGY ALREADY BEING AT THE FINGERPRINTS OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE CONSEQUENCES ARE GENUINELY FRIGHTENING TO ME, AND ONE OF THE TIMES I HAVE BEEN AFRAID AS A JOURNALIST, AND ONE WHO HAS DEALT WITH A FAIR AMOUNT OF INTIMIDATION, AND THERE IS ALWAYS A LEGAL FRAMEWORK TO LIMIT THE INTRUSION IN WHAT WE DO, AND IF YOU LOSE THE SPACE FOR INVESTIGATIONS TO HOLD PEOPLE IN POWER TO ACCOUNT, YOU WILL LOSE THE POTENTIAL FOR THE NEXT WATERGATE, FOR THE NEXT PENTAGON S, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD ALL CARE ABOUT, AND IN THIS CASE, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS THIS, AND BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY HAVE PAUSED THE CONTRACT, AND IT IS POWERFUL PHONE TAPPING, AND YOU COULD SEE HOW I. C. E. COULD DEPLOY IT IN THE MANDATE OF MASS IMMIGRATION DEPLOYMENT.

>> AND IT COULD FIND YOU WHEREVER YOU ARE?

>> EVEN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CAUGHT UP IN THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE AT PLAY, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE IN A COMPLETELY PERMISSIBLE WAY, AND THEY ARE AWAITING IMMIGRATION PROCEEDINGS OF SOME KIND, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE ILLEGALLY, AND I THINK THAT THERE IS ALSO A GOOD ARGUMENT FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATES THE PRIVATE COMMUNICATIONS COULD NOT BE UP FOR GRABS WITHOUT A SPECIFIC LAW ENFORCEMENT WARRANT THAT IS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THEIR STATUS, AND WHAT I HAVE HEARD FROM THE PRIVACY LAW EXPERTS AGAIN AND AGAIN, IT IS TECHNOLOGY PURCHASED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY IS THAT IT IS OFTEN THE TECHNOLOGY THAT IS LEGALLY QUESTIONABLE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A CLEAR NATIONAL SECURITY RATIONAL THAT IS CLEARING THEM FROM SCRUTINY, AND ONCE IT IS IN THE HANDS OF DHS IS THAT YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE IT IS JUST BEING USED BY I. C. E. , AND WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT, BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSPARENCY ON THAT, AND SO IT IS PIVOTAL THAT INDIVIDUALS DEMAND, AND CONGRESS DEMANDS, MORE TRANSPARENCY ABOUT WHO IS USING THIS TECHNOLOGY AND WHEN.

THIS IS REALLY GOING TO BE A PROTECTION THAT HAS TO COME THROUGH THE CHECKS AND BALANCES THROUGH AN OUTSIDE OUTSIDE COUNTER BALANCE IN THE FORM OF CONGRESS.

THIS IS A LARGELY UNREGULATED SPACE THAT I THINK THAT THE HISTORY THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED SHOWS US THAT IT DESPERATELY NEEDS REGULATION AS IT IS MORE INTRUSIVE.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE PARAGON ABOUT HOW THEIR TECHNOLOGY COULD BE USED IN THE IMMIGRATION EFFORTS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> THERE ARE TWO CAMPS IN THE INDUSTRY, AND THE PEOPLE WHO SEE ALL OF THE SCANDALS THAT HAVE EMERGED ABOUT THE NSO GROUP, AND THE RESPONSE IS, WELL, WE WILL KEEP SELLING TO THE BAD GUYS AND WE WILL BE MORE SECRETIVE ABOUT IT, AND THEN THE PLAYERS WHO SEE THE LUCRATIVE MARKET FOR SELLING TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND OTHER BIG WESTERN GOVERNMENTS, AND THEY REALIZE THAT THOSE GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO BE AVERSE TO ASSOCIATION WITH SCANDAL, AND SO THEY TRY TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS A CLEANER ALTERNATIVE.

PARAGON IS ONE OF THE COMPANY, AND PART OF THE PITCH IS, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO POLICE MORE EXPERTLY WHETHER OUR TECHNOLOGY IS ABUSED, AND YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO BE A LITTLE CLEANER ABOUT WHICH CLIENT STATES WE DEAL WITH.

WE WON'T DEAL WITH THE REAL BAD GUYS.

AND THAT IS THE SAME PITCH THAT NSO MADE, AND WE DON'T KNOW IF PARAGON IS GOING TO SUCCEED, BUT THEY SAID THEY WOULD LIMIT IT TO COUNTRIES THAT WOULD NOT ABUSE IT.

AND ONE OF THE SOURCES SAID THAT THE VETTING PROCESS THAT LED TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY USING TECHNOLOGY LED TO THEM DEMONSTRATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, THEY HAVE ROBUST MECHANISMS FROM PREVENTING THE OTHER CLIENT STATES FROM SPYING ON AMERICANS, BUT PIVOTALLY, THERE IS NO GUARDRAILS OF DHS SPYING ON AMERICAN, AND THOSE GUARDRAILS HAVE TO COME FROM WITHIN.

>> RONAN FARROW, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.

ALWAYS A PLEASURE.