>> We had, in the last 10 years, seven governments, six different prime ministers and six different majorities.

So I think we have a problem.

♪♪ >> Hello and welcome to "GZERO World."

I'm Ian Bremmer, and today we are talking about Italy, one of Europe's hardest hit countries in the pandemic.

They're now facing a third wave of coronavirus infections, heading back into lockdown at a critical time for their economy.

How does Italy rebuild and rebound and what does that mean for the European Union and for the United States?

My guest today, Italy's former prime minister, Enrico Letta.

>> I think Trump, in the four years at the White House, was an enormous boost for European -- for populism in Europe.

>> And then it's puppets.

>> Cancel culture detected.

>> Yikes.

>> But first, a word from the folks who help us keep the lights on.

>> Major corporate funding provided by founding sponsor First Republic.

At First Republic, our clients come first.

Taking the time to listen helps us provide customized banking and wealth-management solutions.

More on our clients at firstrepublic.com.

Additional funding provided by... ...and by... >> In a year filled with grim milestones, Italy has had more than their share.

February 2020, the country's first known case of coronavirus, then its first death.

Within weeks, the infection rate exploded.

Italy became the first European nation to enter lockdown and a cautionary tale for the rest of the world.

>> This is the front line in Italy's battle against the coronavirus, a battle doctors say they're losing.

>> A year later, the death toll there stands at more than 100,000, the second highest in Europe behind the United Kingdom.

The number of infections -- 3 million.

In the badly devastated Lombardy region, a new memorial honors all those lost.

It consists of three steel pillars representing resilience, community and starting over.

It's a metaphor for the nation in general, at least in recent years.

Italy's economy was already weak before the pandemic but saw a nearly nine-point decline in GDP over the past 12 months, while unemployment was dropping from a decade high reached in 2014.

It was still around 10% in early 2020.

And if you don't like Italy's political leaders, just wait a second.

They'll change.

In fact, since 1989, the country has had 18 prime ministers.

By comparison, Germany has had three chancellors, France just five presidents.

The latest Italian leader is Mario Draghi.

"Super Mario" they call him, a former president of the European Central Bank.

His predecessor, Giuseppe Conte, resigned in January after being unable to maintain a governing coalition, even though he was actually quite popular, and Draghi was asked to build a new government.

The environment couldn't be more challenging.

A third wave of coronavirus is sweeping Europe, and Italy is heading back into lockdown.

Vaccine distribution has been slow, much slower than the United States or the United Kingdom and temporarily halted over unproven concerns about the AstraZeneca shot.

And there's much debate over how to spend desperately needed E.U.

relief funds worth 200 billion alone for Italy's struggling economy.

Draghi also faces a critical moment on the global stage.

Italy holds the presidency of the G20 this year and hosts that global gathering in Rome this fall.

It's also co-chair of COP-26, the UN conference on climate -- historic year for that -- and working feverishly to improve a lackluster record on green initiatives.

There's a chance for a turnaround in Italia, but a lot of trouble on the road ahead.

Today I'm talking about all that with a man who has been in the hot seat himself.

Italy's former prime minister, Enrico Letta, left office in 2014 to teach at Paris' Sciences Po University.

But just days ago, he mounted a surprise return to Italian politics to lead the struggling center-left Democratic Party.

Here's our conversation.

Prime Minister Enrico Letta, you were having a nice life at Sciences Po, and now you are back in charge of the Democratic Party of Italy.

What were you thinking?

>> Maybe I'm a little bit crazy, but, you know, politics is a virus.

I think there's no vaccine.

So I decided to go back and to try to save my -- the party that I founded 14, 15 years ago.

There was a crisis, a big crisis, and without a strong Democratic Party at the very center of the system, it would have been a very complicated journey.

So I think it is good for Italy.

It is good for my party.

>> How much of this is related to the response to this greatest crisis of our lifetimes, the pandemic?

Because your country right now is slipping back into a third lockdown.

And I mean, obviously, we in the United States remember back in March, the deaths that were coming out, the hospitals that were overwhelmed in northern Italy.

How does it feel?

How does it look?

How are the citizens reacting to this continued, very urgent challenge of coronavirus right now in your country?

>> It is not easy.

It is very complicated.

This fatigue is something that is very wide.

I think now we are able to allow economy to work even in a pandemic period, even in a lockdown period.

That was not the case one year ago when in three months -- March, April, May -- everything was stopped.

But, of course, I think the key problem in terms of collective psychology is the vaccine campaign, because if we are able to see the possibility to have the end or to have a decrease and to have some hope, to have the vaccine campaign showing that it works, we are in a mixed-feeling situation and sort of a turning point.

I think April will be a month in which we will understand whether we can decrease definitely in terms of death or in terms of negative figures.

In that case, I think this fatigue also will decrease and we can look at the future with more optimism.

>> But when it comes to the health response in the pandemic, of course, there's been nothing but negative headlines coming out of Europe recently in terms of the slowness of procuring vaccines, of rolling them out, this debacle around the suspension of AstraZeneca, while the United Kingdom, despite having botched Brexit, one of the countries that's rolling out vaccines faster than anywhere else in the world.

Talk a little bit about how we should think about those things.

>> It is exactly the consequence of a lack of Europe of health.

You have to know that on social policies and on health policies, Europe was without any common policy for the treaties.

In the treaties, you don't have the possibility to have social common policies or health common policies.

And so, March 20, when we started facing the pandemic, I think the reaction of the people was, "Why don't we have a European response?"

But the European Union was without any competence in that field.

And even what you mentioned very correctly and the fact that the U.K.'s more performance than European Union on vaccine, for instance, it is exactly the demonstration of the fact that we don't have, at the European level, these competences is a minus.

So I think Brexit helped us, I have to say very clearly, because the U.K. was the country putting vetoes to more integrated European responses, and to have them not on board today is allowing us, all of us, to go further and to have more integrated European policies in terms of health.

We can build up today Europe of health.

It was impossible years ago because the U.K. vetoed these kind of solutions.

And it is clear that for citizens today, having Europe of health and having communitarian policies for health is a plus.

It is not a minus, so I think we are entering the period that can be interesting for democratic values.

And I have to say also that what happened in the U.S. is pushing in that direction.

But I repeat -- these mistakes are not there because of Europe.

Are there because of the lack of Europe.

>> I'll get to the U.S. side in a second, but I want to push you a little bit on this idea that the E.U.

coming together on health is a positive for European integration.

Just to be clear, the perception that the E.U.

was dragging its feet, the regulations were challenging, that they were pushing too hard to get reduced prices as opposed to -- which they got.

I mean, they ended up negotiating better prices for these vaccines, but it was a much longer negotiations process than the Americans, the United Kingdom, who paid a higher price.

But we're three months ahead of the curve.

You're saying that this is really because the E.U.

didn't yet have any processes or competencies around this, not because we shouldn't be blaming von der Leyen for these challenges at this point.

>> I think she did a very good job last year on the recovery plan because recovery plan is in the hands and because of the treaties are giving the European Union the competence on these topics.

That is not the case on health, on vaccine, on other issues where the European countries decided to have an intergovernmental cooperation on these topics.

But maybe it is not enough.

So I don't want to say that everything would be perfect in another treaty situation.

I would like to say that we have to know that we don't have, at the European level, enough competences on that.

And this is a big problem and that is creating part of the issues that you mentioned.

>> Now, you had also said before -- and it was quite an interesting comment, so I don't want to just leave it there -- that you thought that what's happening in the United States right now is also helping the Europeans on the continent to strengthen the E.U.

What did you mean by that, Enrico?

>> I think Trump, in the four years at the White House, was an enormous boost for populism in Europe.

It was a boost.

Trumpism was a boost because, you know, White House, it is a sort of word megaphone.

Public opinion was following Trump's ideas, Trump's messages, because, of course, president of the U.S. has the possibilities to link what he says with the acts, with the actions.

So the advertising, the fact that the visibility of what Trump said in the four years legitimated a lot what European populists did, and the lack of Trump at the White House today is a big problem for them.

I have to say that, in the last two months, personally, I didn't know anything about Trump and about what Trump said, did.

And in the last four years, every day, morning, afternoon and evening, there was reporting something, something about Trump.

So the lack of Trump in the landscape is a big problem for populists in Europe because Trump gave a lot of legitimacy to their disrupters, their behaviors.

And, you know, Trump, in the four years at the White House, was the most relevant enemy of the European integration.

I don't want to say of Europe.

I say of the European integration, because here he said clearly that he was pushing for intergovernmental cooperation, bilateral cooperation.

>> And he was a strong supporter, of course, of Brexit, a very visceral and vocal one.

>> Of course, of course.

So I think today we are taking advantage of this new landscape.

It is something very positive.

We had, last year, an increase in the popularity of the European Union because of the solidarity measures.

Now, we have not to waste this opportunity in favor of Europe.

>> So at least as much of a surprise as you coming back into politics, former Prime Minister, is also Mario Draghi, known as Super Mario, now running your country's government.

You know, for those around the world watching the show who don't necessarily know as much about him, tell us who Mario Draghi is in your view.

>> Mario Draghi in Italy is considered -- and not only in Italy, but in Italy, this perception is higher than worldwide -- is the one who saved the euro and saved the country and European integration, the previous crisis.

Mario Draghi is the one who said, "Whatever it takes, we will save the euro."

>> Within our mandate, the ECB is ready to do whatever it takes to preserve the euro.

And believe me, it will be enough.

>> And he said this statement July 26, 2012, in London, when we were at the very heart of the tremendous crisis, previous crisis, and since he said "whatever it takes," the solution of the crisis started to happen.

So Mario Draghi is considered someone who knows where it is possible to find solutions, someone who has credibility worldwide.

I think it is very important, also, the fact that Italy will lead G20 this year.

I attach great importance to G20.

In my experience, the G20 is one of the most interesting news, positive news at world level and international relations.

We didn't succeed in reforming the UN, and G20 is the sort of reform of the UN without reforming the UN.

It is a place where you can have the most important countries around the world around the table with the possibility to talk.

I attended one G20.

Can tell you that is the only place where you can meet all the leaders at world level.

You can find a way to find solutions, to share analysis and solutions.

So Italy is leading G20, and Mario Draghi, leader of G20, I think is also a way for Italy to be at the center of the stage.

He has, because of his credibility, a large support in the country and in the parliament.

That, for Italy, is something very positive because it allows him to avoid to spend time in the domestic problems of Italian politics.

When I was prime minister, I was obliged to spend part of my time and try to understand and to find solutions to find the right compass, to find the right track.

And so for him is the possibility to avoid all this part in terms of domestic issues, domestic political issues.

So I think Draghi's credibility and what he did in the past will help him a lot.

I think he has the protection of the president of the republic in Italy and the protection of the public opinion, because the public opinion today is supporting him very much.

>> On the global stage, does he get to inherit Angela Merkel's position to a degree?

I mean, Italy is not Germany.

The economy is smaller.

Your governments do not last very long.

But Merkel is leaving.

If you consider Emmanuel Macron a very strong figure, but also a polarizing one.

I mean, Mario Draghi is the figure on the European stage that is, as you say, identified most closely with saving Europe.

How significant is that from an E.U.

perspective over this next year or two?

>> It is clear that at European level, he was warmly welcomed as the way to reinforce the European Council and the sort of pro-European integration, because Mario Draghi saving the euro as it is, is considered one of the fathers of the European integration.

So I think it was good news for Europe.

It was welcomed as good news for Europe.

You mentioned Angela Merkel, you mentioned Germany.

I think we have to follow very closely September German elections, because it is the first time in German history that you have the chancellor not a candidate again.

And so it is not clear and not easy to understand what would be the consequence of not having the chancellor in the race.

It is not easy to understand who will be the new leader of the country.

So it is probable that Germany, for some months after September, will live in a not easy transition.

I have to say also that in the same period, May next year, France will have presidential elections.

It will be a period of instability.

So I think for Europe to have Mario Draghi there, I think it is good news in this probable period of instability that German and French elections will bring.

>> So finally, you know, if I want to bring stereotypes into this, you think about Italian cars, you say, "Oh, they're always going to be in the shop."

You think about Italian governments.

"They're always falling apart."

You've had 68 governance in 75 years.

Why are Italian politics -- What's the strangeness of governance in Italy?

>> I think we have a problem that that's -- Houston, we have a problem.

We had, in the last 10 years, seven governments, six different prime ministers and six different majorities.

And I think it's too much.

So I think we have a problem.

The problem is related also of the instability of political parties and political forces.

This is why when they asked me to come back and when when they said to me, "You are the only one," for me, it was very complicated because there's something that is today very important.

It is the fact that politics is in an evolution, and this evolution, we have to fight.

We have to try to renew the way in which political parties are working.

We have to apply digital transformations to political parties.

We have to make internal democracy evolving.

We have to create a new way to have democratic values and to have democracy in our countries.

And it is a fantastic challenge for someone like me who loves politics, who taught politics, and now when they ask me, "Why don't you try to apply what you taught or what you thought," I have to say that, for me, the most important push was six years that I spent with young people.

I spent six years in Paris with fantastic young people worldwide, people coming from the rest of the world, with a lot of Italians standing there.

And for me, this generation, the generation in the 20s or 30s, it was a fantastic boost for me to learn something, to be obliged to change.

Now, I think I'm a different person, and this is why I'm a little bit crazy maybe in this journey.

But I'm happy because this journey will be very interesting for me and I hope very useful for the country.

>> Prime Minister Enrico Letta, he's back.

Whether or not you missed him.

Great to see you.

>> Thank you.

See you soon.

>> And now to "Puppet Regime," where Mark Zuckerberg hears your concerns about Facebook's algorithm and promises that he's ready to make some changes.

What could possibly go wrong?

>> Here at Facebook, we've heard your concerns and we agree it's time to reduce the number of politically divisive ads that somehow magically appear in your news feeds.

So from now on, every ad will go into our new political sensitivities algorithm, which will weed out any problematic ones.

Let's have a look at how it works, yeah.

>> It's hard to make plans during a pandemic.

So here at Fair Air, you can book and cancel your flights at anytime.

That's right.

Cancel at any time.

[ Buzzer ] >> Cancel culture detected.

Conservative America will not stand for cancel culture.

>> Oh, damn.

I don't want to make those guys mad.

Josh Hawley is getting a lot of money these days.

Okay, okay, how about this one?

>> For just a buck a month, you can buck that beard.

Join our Buck That Beard Club and get a free beard bucker -- [ Buzzer ] >> Bias detected in favor of cis-hirsute faces.

Hairless groups will boycott.

>> Yikes.

Okay, well, surely this next one couldn't possibly be construed in any way as... >> Air -- it's free and it's what you breathe right here on planet Earth.

[ Buzzer ] >> Bias detected against Mars, which has no air.

>> Oh, come on.

It's air.

Man, is there any ad that can get through this algorithm?

>> Tired of feeling like your sanity and your privacy are constantly under assault?

Ready for a good breakup?

Well, let's break up Big Tech.

>> Paid for by the Committee to Break Up Big Tech.

[ Ding ] >> Approved.

No groups will argue with this ad.

>> Great.

Wait, what was that last one?

>> "Puppet Regime"!

>> That's our show this week.

Come back next week and if you like what you see -- of course you do, because we're together.

We're connected that way.

Check us out at gzeromedia.com.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Major corporate funding provided by founding sponsor First Republic.

At First Republic, our clients come first.

Taking the time to listen helps us provide customized banking and wealth-management solutions.

More on our clients at firstrepublic.com.

Additional funding provided by... ...and by...